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| Enuma Elish sounds like my PC when it crashes! But they didn't play his theme when unleahsing it nooooo |
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| I won't deny that I'm a bit surprised at the amount of mixed opinions about this episode. I though this episode was great, but I do agree that the series hit it's peak in terms of build-up and top animation quality with episode 18. With this episode, a few parts of the animation was disappointingly lacking, with King Hassan and some of Ritsuka's running moments. Tiamat's CGI scenes were hit or miss again, too. Despite that, most of the episode, in terms of animation quality, was still very good. Despite his slight lack of action and not seeing his NP being animated, King Hassan was awesome. He had no problem taking down multiple Lahmu at once and seeing him devouring them was VERY satisfying. The moment with Ereshkigal, after using up all of her power, and Ishtar talking together one last time was emotionally powerful as well. Both Ishtar and Ereshkigal, along with Merlin and Mash, played their parts very well. Talk crap about him all you want, but Ritsuka did a fine job in this episode as well and his lack of personality or character progression compared to the other main characters here shouldn't deny him of the achievements that he's done in Babylonia and the singularities beforehand. Plus, my friends who've played a good chunk of the Lost Belt story in FGO also says that Ritsuka plays a big role in that as well, so I wouldn't compared him to Apocrypha's Sieg as another cardboard character anytime soon. =P Not to forget, Gilgamesh made his return, in his Archer form, and he got the last blow on Tiamat with his impressive NP, Enuma Elish. Nicely done, king. ^_^ Anyway, I look forward to seeing how the epilogue gets animated. =) |
| In this episode Fujimaru was fine imho, much like in episode 18 What the series needed was to decide one, single, coherent characterization for him to follow through all 21 episodes. Because hate him all you want, he is needed in the story. FGO story (at least part 1) focuses a lot on the heroes and Servants, but the protagonist is still there doing things (again, in the Lostbelt I feel like they decided a coherent line even for the game, but let's that aside for a minute), and what the anime should've done was deciding how much Fujimaru should've done what. They didn't, and so his actions appear disjointed, confusing, and that's valid criticism and I think that too. But in this episode he was fine, I believe. Would've been way more than fine if his personality was planned from the beginning to be consistent? Of course, and I would've preferred that very much. But in the vacuum of this single episode (much like episode 18), I feel he's fine. |
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EDENisLD said: Pipe said: Tiamat talked with Ritsuka in dream and with Kingu when he chained her. Actually they cut a lot of her background instead of adding.It could have been worse. In terms of animation, it was very average. Also, there are some fills that never happened in the game. For example, Tiamat never talked with the MC. It is more the small change affects the character's reasons to be a beast. I checked the game materials and she never talks with the MC there. If you can point the game section, I will check but when she got chained, they never talk. They are in a middle of a fight then she falls down, happened the same as the adaptation. Maybe I skipped something but they never talked there in the game. |
Pipe said: EDENisLD said: Tiamat talked with Ritsuka in dream and with Kingu when he chained her. Actually they cut a lot of her background instead of adding. I checked the game materials and she never talks with the MC there. If you can point the game section, I will check but when she got chained, they never talk. They are in a middle of a fight then she falls down, happened the same as the adaptation. Maybe I skipped something but they never talked there in the game. She just says "KINGUUUUUUU" when she gets chained by him. "Talking with the MC" happens indirectly in a dream sequence in the first chapters of the singularity. It's one of the foreshadowing elements for her appearing later on. |
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Exeterna said: i personally feel gramps scenes are weird, he's just jumping around, pointing the sword to tiamat and applying death concept... could have like just disappear into flame when tiamat shot him, appear on her back, then stab his sword, applying the death concept. imo it'd be cooler He should have sliced Tiamat's wing, but they cut it out. |
LeloTheUnamused said: Pipe said: I checked the game materials and she never talks with the MC there. If you can point the game section, I will check but when she got chained, they never talk. They are in a middle of a fight then she falls down, happened the same as the adaptation. Maybe I skipped something but they never talked there in the game. She just says "KINGUUUUUUU" when she gets chained by him. "Talking with the MC" happens indirectly in a dream sequence in the first chapters of the singularity. It's one of the foreshadowing elements for her appearing later on. Yes, and she expresses that she hates everything in the first chapters. The last part in the episode is an addition that is missplaced because her brain was already destroyed and she never talked with the MC after being defeated. Also, I missed jaguar too. I was expecting for her yesterday and nothing. I am having mixed feelings and they could appear in the final review =( Thank you for the help |
| I mean, it's characterization for her, and it's more a thing of the soul than one of the brain. Being put there even if in the game there was nothing is, if anything, creative liberty more than misplacement. And I honestly think it works. Would've worked better without cutting her characterization in previous episodes, but it was definetly a good thing. |
LeloTheUnamusedMar 15, 2020 9:22 AM
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Horn_dawg_2019 said: there's a final chapter that begins 10 minutes after babylonia ends so the last episode will prolly lead into that well, given that Tiamat was already been taken care off, I'm guessing the last ep would nothing more than just a filler???? |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
ssjokg said: SouthRzVa said: I may look for it later because I think I missed something but did King Gilgamesh just summon his own servant Archer form or something like that? Not really. He used the fact that he is now a soul(which is basically a mass of information) to access his arrogant, King of Heroes arsenal.Since he gave up all those weapons and Ea in order to power up Uruk's defenses he needed a way to have quick access to them again. Oh, I see. That makes things a bit more clear now. Thanks! |
| Absolutly stacked episode, very good overall. But there were some inconsistencies as other people have pointed out. And some anime original stuff too but I feel like it was a nice touch. That was the first time we ever heard Tiamat talk, so that was nice to see. King Hassan was a little bit of a let down after that hype appearance last week. But Eresh, Merlin and Gil nailed it. Really curious how the final ep will play out. Will we get a reveal for a Solomon movie? Will DW announce Tiamat to be summonable? I hope we get either of the two. |
  Katsura janai, Zura da |
This episode had a few awesome moments, and gilgamesh steals the show, as usual. He elevates any scene to a higher level. I think Ishtar summed up the whole episode best though: |
| words cannot describe how fucking good this episode or series is. 20 episodes that felt like a literal roller coaster were you can look back and almost say to yourself "i really felt like i was there at the moment" without further ado me pitifully attempting to describe this episode: first merlin absolutely DELETING the Lahum's face was probably the funniest shit this ep but happy that Excalibur made another appearance and Altria was eventually mentioned by him. Also idk if i should be proud or not but i at the exact same time said merlin's NP lines of by heart. oh oH OH fucking Gilgamesh, i couldn't help but spoil myself by looking at eps 20 preview and have to say i'm very happy how Clover Work designed archer Gil. My guy through nothing but absolute sheer will power and just being straight badass summoned HIMSELF in probably his most peak. Oh and his Gate Of Babylon? Exactly how i always wanted it to sound. Like the machine gun of an A-10 Warthog firing explosive weaponry on who ever may be unlucky enough to be at the receiving end. You can also bet that i had my volume on max for the sexy Elmu eilish. Who needs hearing when you can bathe in the glory of absolute destruction from a weird gold stick that rotates funny. I expected eresh's death i really did but no amount of mental preparations, tissues, icream or support animal could help me recover from that scene. God damn they really pushed it in ;-;but hay she didnt die alone at least c: Tiamat's reality marble which was ,as accurately as i can describe it, me-spamming-CTRL-Z-about-100-million-times-after-i-can't-draw-a-perfect-circle-on-my-drawing-pad is cheats af. Also have to say, dk whats with clover work and making me feel so damn upset seeing one of the antagonist die cus at the Tiamat conversation scene i was like ok its over gg, but then no it got worst when we hear her va for the first time and her talking about how she didn't want to be left behind and by the end i was crying and was like OH NO SHE'S HOT, honestly by the end for me Tiamat went from world ending God to i wouldn't mind her being my mom and making breakfast for me every day omfg king hassan reached a new level of alpha, just the pure aura of death around him as he rips and tears through Lahum. hohoho *CHARGES AZRAEL WITH MALICIOUS INTENT* that conclusion, with them ending back in the planes together already gave me nostalgic vibes to ep 1 of the series but in conclusion great 10/10 episode if anyone would ask me what fate anime is the best i think i can say with confidence this one definitely |
 "yabe." |
| Imagine dying then using your own soul to force the throne of heroes into summoning you. Man, I love Gil. Still not giving this a 10 until all the singularities are animated. |
 Your life to come is bound to make you smile |
StellarIceberg said: Imagine dying then using your own soul to force the throne of heroes into summoning you. Man, I love Gil. Still not giving this a 10 until all the singularities are animated. That wasnt Gil from the Throne. He is the same Gil that was always with them, just that as a soul he can access everything about him now. Read the aftermath of the battle, Both his Archer and Caster appearance/limitation is just him flexing to everyone/Solomon respectively. |
ssjokgMar 15, 2020 10:55 PM
| Where is that dude with the Naruto DP hating on Gilgamesh every week. I want to see his reaction and face now. XD |
Mika-taicho said: LeloTheUnamused said: In this episode Fujimaru was fine imho, much like in episode 18 What the series needed was to decide one, single, coherent characterization for him to follow through all 21 episodes. Because hate him all you want, he is needed in the story. FGO story (at least part 1) focuses a lot on the heroes and Servants, but the protagonist is still there doing things (again, in the Lostbelt I feel like they decided a coherent line even for the game, but let's that aside for a minute), and what the anime should've done was deciding how much Fujimaru should've done what. They didn't, and so his actions appear disjointed, confusing, and that's valid criticism and I think that too. But in this episode he was fine, I believe. Would've been way more than fine if his personality was planned from the beginning to be consistent? Of course, and I would've preferred that very much. But in the vacuum of this single episode (much like episode 18), I feel he's fine. Hmmm, i would disagree that he seems disjointed or his actions confusing. That suggests there were moments where he acted the polar opposite of how he did in eps 18, 20 etc but i genuinely cannot think of such scenes? For as much screentime as he was allowed to have he seemed pretty consistent to me. To compare for instance one behaviour/action: leaving servants behind and letting them sacrifice themselves without fuss and drama -> happened in both cases; early on with Ushi and then later with Ana/Quetz. I meant that in episode 18 and 20 he acted fine, but in other episodes and generally through the series you don't have a clear picture of his personality and actions. He seems to do and say whatever is needed, and the few attempts at giving him a characterization seem to do each one a different thing. I wasn't saying that he acted differently in episode 20 compared to 18, quite the opposite in fact. Also, disjointed doesn't imply polar opposites, it just means that it's not constant and there isn't a coherent flow of actions. |
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| This episode was too godawful for words. Easily brought down Babylonia as probably the worst Fate adaptation so far with Last Encore. Thankfully, even the polite Japanese fans gave this episode the second lowest score of all the series (episode 11 got the lowest, but this one IMO is easily worse than 11) in nicovideo. |
ThessMar 16, 2020 5:10 PM
Thess said: Last Encore was a nonsensical mess with mediocre AD... Babylonia is probably more on par with Apocrypha or even UBW adaptation wise. Most of the fans are just pissed about HassanThis episode was too godawful for words. Easily brought down Babylonia as probably the worst Fate adaptation so far with Last Encore. Thankfully, even the polite Japanese fans gave this episode the second lowest score of all the series (episode 11 got the lowest, but this one IMO is easily worse than 11) in nicovideo. |
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Thess said: Last Encore was a nonsensical mess with mediocre AD... Babylonia is probably more on par with Apocrypha or even UBW adaptation wise. Most of the fans are just pissed about HassanThis episode was too godawful for words. Easily brought down Babylonia as probably the worst Fate adaptation so far with Last Encore. Thankfully, even the polite Japanese fans gave this episode the second lowest score of all the series (episode 11 got the lowest, but this one IMO is easily worse than 11) in nicovideo. |
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| It is an exaggerated reaction, this is nowhere near the non-adaptation that was Last Encore and japanese fans also rated episode 19 higher than 18 so... yeah. But it's honestly hard to tell how much is sarcasm and how much isn't so idk. |
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GreenNet said: How can one episode do that? It wasn't even a bad episode per se. The adaptation was pretty faitful overall and just because one battle didn't lived up to the hype, we are gonna throw everything in the trash? Seems weird to me. It's not just an episode, episode 19 was hot trash too. The direction of Babylonia was garbage in general. Have you seen other Fate series (that isn't the gross neckbeard pandering one like Prisma Ilya) that has so much gratuitous emphasis on underage's girls' asses and crotches and other fanservice shots? Looks like a horny manchild was in charge of the project. Overall made it look cheap since episode 1 (which of course can be said of the obvious favoritism toward the Rin clones the director had, which we knew because he confessed to being her fan so you have all characters but the Rin clones shafted from their scenes - for example, Jaguarman not Ishtar should have been in the last battle). Ritsuka "character" has been a horrible mess of changes from the beginning too, because they try to force him as a protagonist rather than a support camera as the game, which in turn made him take up the screentime with his dull self and taking out the spotlight of the real characters and scenes we got anticipated. It ruined the scenes fans were waiting for no reason at all. The adaptation was already a hot mess, but wrecking the climax deal breaker: It gets 4/10 from me. The bonus points for the good episodes, the OST, and some neat stuff here and there. Also Last Encore was a mess because they only gave it half of a cour, Babylonia was a mess because they chose to make it 21 episodes and add 4 recap episodes for no reason at all when they bought the timeslot of the station. It's just worse than Last Encore which problems would have lessened if it had more episodes dedicated to it. I'll rectify it, Babylonia is the worst Fate adaptation so far. ImbalancedEmblem said: Last Encore was a nonsensical mess with mediocre AD... Babylonia is probably more on par with Apocrypha or even UBW adaptation wise. Most of the fans are just pissed about Hassan The biggest problem with Last Encore as adaptation (of the "Last Encore script" Nasu came up with) was just need to cram things in half cour. So as an adaptation, it's far superior to Babylonia. Whether you like or hate the story, it's just subjective. Apocrypha had some departures as an adaptation but not as much as Babylonia. I wouldn't place Babylonia even near it at all. |
ThessMar 17, 2020 6:44 AM
GreenNet said: How did Ritsuka stole the spotlight from anyone when he literally just had ONE scene where he was important? He is supposed to do nothing aside from the Quetz scene, just stare, throw some meme lines, and exist to be fawned by Servants. You can say anything you want, Ritsuka is the main character. Mash is the main character, and in this chapter, the main character is Gilgamesh. Ritsuka's just the player self insert without an arc, backstory or legitimate personality that exists to witness the action and be an occasional plot device. He's not a real character, though. Player avatar character doesn't equal the main character. The main character is the protagonist of the story that's built around them, in the first Arc of FGO, the main characters are Mash and Roman (according to Nasu, not me, it's their story). Each Singularity has a different main character, in Camelot, it's Bedivere (and thank our lucky stars, the Camelot director states he's the main protagonist of the movies, not Ritsuka) from which Mash usually learns something from. In Cosmos in the Lostbelts, the protagonists are the Crypters, rather than Chaldea, by the way. Even the OP song isn't about Chaldea anymore. Babylonia director decided to damage the chapter adaptation to try to make Ritsuka a protagonist, which in turn resulted in this unwatchable mess. People are pissed if Ritsuka doesn't do anything. People are pissed if he does something. "People" what? I'm not pissed Ritsuka doesn't do anything, in fact, the less he does is better to me. He should have also limited lines. My problem with him since the beginning to try to make him a "character" by no merit of his own (unlike Shimousa's Ritsuka who the example of how you can do it in an organic way), he continuously took up roles from other characters (Roman, Gilgamesh, UruK Soldier, King Hassan, etc) stealing their characterization, actions or lines when absolutely no one wants him to. How are you excusing them breaking lore, changing Nega Genesis and destroying Gilgamesh's last words to Tiamat just to shill the worthless blank self insert? |
ThessMar 17, 2020 9:30 AM
Ozraptor4 said: Had mixed feelings the first time I watched it, but warmed up to the episode in my 2nd viewing. Hassan's confrontation with Tiamat wasn't quite up to the standards of previous boss-fights in the series. Sad that Jaguar-warrior has become a disposable character and we'll never get to see her intense, serious side animated. Eresh's departure was handled beautifully, as was the new sequence with Tiamat's final stand, although getting Ritsuka to personally engage Tia felt overly contrived, especially as it replaces an epic speech from Gil in the game. Then again, glorious to see Ea in action after so many years. Overall 4/5 - a flawed but satisfying conclusion. Pipe said: For example, Tiamat never talked with the MC. It is more the small change affects the character's reasons to be a beast. Tiamat & Ritsuka's meeting in the anime is an expanded version of a sequence in the game in the prologue to Chapter 5. Ritsuka unintentionally enters Tiamat's dream (although he doesn't recognise it at the time) and her dialogue is similar to her final words in the anime = Tiamat = "Don't go - Don't leave - Don't leave me alone again - Don't leave me again" Player = "This is..." Tiamat = "Come back... come back... once more to me... once more... just once more... no... no... never again... ever love me again." Yes I know, what I was referring is that she never talked with the MC after the fight =) |
| I have been seeing this dream where i pass away in the Garden of Avalon in a peaceful way while admiring the flowers and now in this episode the same thing happened to Ereshkigal, and it was so similar with my dream... |
| @GreenNet He receives praises because it is literally just a blank self-insert that is the player's proxy so is fawned by for waifu collection to make the players roll the gacha (either gacha). Nothing deep about his personality just $$ related. How hard is this to grasp? Did you forget Corday basically fell in love at first sight without not doing anything for it? Or Serenity because he can't be poisoned thanks to Mash, when Mash and Arash can't be either and nothing else? It's embarassing at this point to deny the real reason. Or how Ereshkigal had to be robbed of her happy marriage with Nergal (and very active sex life!) to make her some friendless loser that can be bought and won over a few lines? And no, he never becomes a character and still has no personality. What the hell are you talking about? Shimousa is the only chapter with some bit of monologue you're talking about and Shimousa has a great adaptation at that. For the rest, all he did is take up Roman's will Time Temple onward which is the top they can do to 'grow'. This is what gave some sliver of depth which doesn't exist before that. Mash and Roman should have handled 90% of the dialog given to Ritsuka like in the game where the self-insert is silent except for a few scenes. And "uhh retcons" happen is no excuse to completely bent over something established in canon (and lore material) to try to make Ritsuka deliver a lifeless version of the scene that was Gilgamesh's. And yes Uruk Soldier NPC scene wasn't just about that soldier but about the resilience in Uruk in general who fought by Leonidas' side for months and knew him the best. This doesn't need to be stolen to the worthless teenager self insert, ok? Uruk was inserted to the plot of the story as a mirror to Mash (and Roman) about their decision. Hell, Roman even has a very meaningful dialog with Gilgamesh about the value of sacrifices, which, of course, was cut from the anime. At least they kept Mash's awe for Uruk's joy to live with limited time unscathed. |
ThessMar 17, 2020 2:50 PM
| @GreenNet: Why? Why would you need a 'reason' when you know it's just a worthless self insert thing and nothing deep? It's worse to have an artificially forced scene with "Ritsuka" stealing lines and actions from the real characters that people were actually looking for. That doesn't make him deep or an actual character, just makes him even the lowest of low. Why are you even mentioning about "change is bad" to me? And not everyone is "handsome." Look at Gilles de Rais, historically stated the most handsome man of his era in France, and what Fate did to him. I also dislike how Fionn was treated, however Ereshkigal is a sore spot because I liked her original story and greatly dislike the Rinface otaku pleaser they turned her into. And please don't compare Arturia to any of those. I don't have issues against romance when it's developed. Shirou spent all the route for Arturia to like him back, the two are connected uniquely through Avalon-Excalibur convo too. They had their ups and downs and wasn't until the end, they matured in their relationship, before their separation. And Arturia only likes Shirou in a romantic sense in the route he pursues her (Nasu confirms it). How the hell is this comparable with low excuse reasons like whatever girl (and some boys) care for Ritsuka for? Arturia and Shirou are closer to Anastasia and Kadoc in FGO romance if you want to use a comparison. The traits "brought by constantly" are all different from a character to other because the MC has no traits. Everyone inserts their own imaginary Master traits on him. Mandricardo even lampshades this in Atlantis. And anything you list is just another of imaginary traits some Servants gave him (or her), nothing Guda has on its own. What he did in the temple was after losing his two most important people enough to motivate them to do something which Nasu stated COULDN'T BE DONE WITH TIAMAT. Wow, he already stated it was impossible for the selfinsert to do this kind of thing with Tiamat in an interview. No, it doesn't work perfectly. The Uruk soldiers are grownass adults who have been holding strong for months knowing they'll all die in the end and accepted this. They don't need some teenage kid to 'remind' them anything. Ritsuka's not necessary here, nor was necessary for him to "calm down" the "panicked" group after Quetz failed in episode 18 ending (the only smear of the episode) because they were never panicked in the game and carried on without any input or anything. You see how the story bends to try to make Ritsuka look good at the expense of everyone's characterization in the anime? That's bad writing. Good writing? Shimousa's Ritsuka is your to go example. Gilgamesh wasn't treated well at all. He's done as a one note, one-dimensional regal figure with little of his silly scenes of the game which makes him fallible. He's stripped of how facing Tiamat was personal for HIM, because they needed to push Ritsuka. And the conflict in Babylonia was Uruk vs Tiamat. That was the heart of it which was robbed and diminished just to fellate to the director's version of the self-insert. All this emotional send-off was sacrificed and left a sour taste in my mouth. Ana's and Hassan's were equally messed up with poorly done scenes, how can you try to convince yourself this was well done at all? They didn't care about their characters. As for Roman, it's a mixed bag because they did add scenes with him but he got his flaws glossed over (did you forget he started the game looking down Uruk and thinking them as uncivilized savages but changes his mind so he goes to amicably talking to Gilgamesh before the Nippur mission? Gilgamesh's stubbornness to cooperate with Chaldea was wholly mutual because Roman was looking down on him and his people too; the jobs wasn't just for Mash to meet the city, but Roman through it, and Merlin got him to admit he was too harsh), his interaction with Gilgamesh and Merlin cut, which was important because Nasu even highlit it in the interview because Ritsuka was inserted there (but added scenes with Da Vinci). And Mash, poor Mash was just made an ineffectual fighter at the end of her journey, because whoever degenerate animator wanted to see her in distress and tied up to focus on her 16 years old ass. Which grossed me out. Her important dream about the final boss cut, but Ritsuka dreams about him! She's the actual main character in FGO and was treated like a sidekick. And Kingu.... poor Kingu. Kingu went from a major character to a footnote. This is probably one of the most upsetting changes and treatments. His 2 minutes chained Tiamat scene, when he held down an hour, completely undermining the scene and the character climax. The only characters who got treated well were the Rin clones because the director is their fanboy which undercut every single character but them and the self-insert. It shows very clearly, that's why they cut the implication Ishtar's in love with Gilgamesh and is hurt by his lack of thinking of her before she bombs Uruk. Oh and Ushiwakamaru who got more scenes and focus, despite being a throwaway plot device to make Benkei develop in the game. Must be someone's waifu because Benkei got his scenes reduced and didn't even bother to show his NP (which he indeed uses in game). |
ThessMar 17, 2020 6:29 PM
| @GreenNet: We're all biased. You trying to pass Ritsuka as more 'character traits' than Sieg who is a legitimate character with a dense POV, internal struggle about his identity and goal all across the Apocrypha novel is blatantly hilarious. Ristuka IS nothing but a self insert to the player. Sieg is a character, on the other hand, could be good or bad depending on your subjective taste. "Not everyone would be willing to accept murderers or serial killers as friends" because Ristuka has no real standards, preferences or characterization, aside of "what otaku might find desirarable or cool" as is just You in game, and would accept any playable Servant for your rooster collection. There's no deep reason about it. Even Mandricardo stated so. That's why the 'character' (lol) flip flops. "But he is an actual character with a role and a spot in the nasuverse." But we decided that, as a mobile game, the protagonist would be the players themselves. Okay, but Nasu disagrees with you? Love it or hate it. ;) Most Servants are based on historical or legendary figure who are hot in their own culture. Even if they 'adapt' it to otaku taste, like all the examples you listed. Gilgamesh was burly because in his civilization that was the idea of beauty, he was changed when Nasu decided Uruk gods had red eyes and blond hair (and to link it with Arc), but in myth, he's supposed to be hot, and Enkidu, a hairy big man, was supposed to crossdress after being civilized in their meeting (so you get the 'idea' of why he was made this androgynous being came from I guess). Now yes. let me compare Arturia to this because it's exactly the same. Shirou has an harem exactly in the same way Ritsuka does. No, Ereshkigal is a lazy attempt to make someone lust after a worthless kid because he was "kind," robbing her of her lovers. While Shirou and Saber were at odds with each other, and only found themselves mutually attracted through a) their connection (remember Avalon is soul bounded to Shirou and Saber), b) their struggle to survive together, c) their mutual insanity over ideals. They are kindred souls. It wasn't just because Shirou said "some kind words." She takes offense over those, they fight and are awful to each other (like a real relationship) in their fail attempt to date. They have actual development that is mutual with Shirou pursing her on purpose, not just 'accidentally' charming her with his unworldly charisma (lol) as Ritsuka supposely possesses. Shirou indeed has a harem in comedy works, but in FSN, Saber doesn't fall in love with him outside Fate. Nasu confirmed it when he did UBW interview booklet, she sees him as a child she watches over in UBW for example. Arturia still has Mordred as her kid, she was still married to Guinevere, and even has the confessing she thinks was in love with Merlin in Garden of Avalon as an add-on. How can really even compare to what they did to Ereskigal whose relationship with Nergal was the genderswapped model for Hades and Persephone? Where are her children? Uh huh, the mecha lover trait that's absent during Halloween. Why? Because the self insert didn't need to fanboy over Godzilla Eli. None of those times is related to what happened in the anime. Not just about Ritsuka, but Gilgamesh going out of character to push him there. Ritsuka always freaks out too, if by your "proof" he doesn't is listing the scene he has no reaction, because the self inserts barely actually interacts and has lines. Ishtar and Mash always 'freak out" is not an excuse because in that scene THEY DID NOT. Stop moving goalposts. Likewise, stop moving goalposts about the Uruk Soldier, it was an example of how Uruk was strong and resilient. They didn't need to teenage self insert to steal their thunder because it affects the viewers egos they aren't as manly. Ritsuka has gone through something unique. He developed balls of steel at the very least. As if younger characters can't inspire adults! Speaking of bias. Calm down, I know Ritsuka is just like you and you must be awesome. Go Ristuka-kun! Fourth! I will not accept that you think Gilgamesh wasn't treated with gloves. In his fights? He is always a boss. Charisma? he gets to show that. Plans and tactics? He is your man. He dies? who cares, he can still fight. He had a great speech for his people. Showed that he cared about them and was a fair ruler in his later years and still did badass things and he was the one that killed Tiamat. Only because they did not spell out what this fight meant for him (which again, was stated in his speech to Uruk's people) now he was a one-note character. Let's ignore his scenes with Kingu, let's ignore his speech or plans or anything. he was a one note character, sure! They robbed him of his silly moments, to make him dull and boring and Ritsuka's sidekick enabler which annoyed me. He did carry on most of the show (which was boring as hell most of the time), but it doesn't mean he, the true main character of Babylonia Singularity didn't get sidelined. You're too in love with your self insert to be neutral about how the last scene and the Uruk 'death' scene sucked when they were two of the most anticipated Gilgamesh scenes. His finale was important to deliver his character climax, and this was sidelined to give room for Ritsuka for no reason and left his actual scenes reduced to afterthoughts. It was him who decided to tell Ishtar to destroy Uruk with him in the middle of it, it was the King's choice, not the random Master's order. That send-off was completely messed up because they shoehorned Ritsuka when he shouldn't be there. Also how emotionally disjoined the scene was portrayed: from thinking Gil's dead to lol whatever comedy moe scene with Ereshkigal. Then is the matter of the last battle which was awful in all fronts but Merlin's (I dislike Jaguarman but she getting replaced by Ishtar as a fighter there is such blatant director bias which leaves a bad taste in my mouth). Ana was treated exactly like in the game even tho the execution for her finale was meh. They handwaved and rushed her battle with Gorgon because they needed to blow more time on that boring Ereshkigal episode. Despite how the "you vs your other self" is a theme of FGO in general (you know why). Quetz suffered the most of the goddess alliances too, but they make up by hiring the only competent animator for her battle. I said Roman's stuff was weird because they added a lot for him but at the same time removed stuff, which made him less well rounded (the same did with Gil, I'm not liking that). It's not just Ritsuka who took some of his time (because in-game, Mash and Roman are the ones doing the Chaldea talking most of the time) but weirdly Merlin took some of his comedy scenes. In fact, Roman had barely any comedy scenes despite his prominent role as comic relief in-game. I personally think that call back to Camelot in episode 11 (an episode mishandled in general) was a mistake, it came out nowhere when the matter was supposed to be settled. I would have preferred they kept the scene where Ristuka asks if he wants to join up their feast and he smiles at him. Instead, they include a lot of anime-only scenes that would be confusing to viewers because they clumsily tried to foreshadow stuff (the coffee one for example). His scenes are more well-rounded in the game (as are Gil's) while, after episode 0, his scenes in the anime looked like HOW MUCH FORESHADOWING CAN WE CRAM HERE, CHIEF? Mash isn't the strongest fighter ever. Since when she can deal with this tier of characters? She can beat Kingu? No. She can beat gods? No! Yes? She's awoken Galahad power who could pulverize or push his weight with them. Mash is never stated in trouble in the game, at least never to this extend. She can and does deflects Gorgon on her own in the anime she relies, after awaking her Galahad power, on Ushiwakamaru to save her because someone in the anime team loved her and added extra scenes with her. Kingu was treated well. I don't know what do you mean. Yes, the chains lasted maybe longer in the game but aside that? All his scenes were there. And it's not like he is a good character to begin with. No, he wasn't. You need to re-read his scenes. He was clearly upset Gorgon was killed enough to turn into an Avenger for her sake. In the anime, he brushed it aside after a slight annoyance. A lot of his characterization was removed and glossed over because they decided to invest more time on Ishtar or Ereshkigal doing moe faces. Hell, Kingu cared so much about Gorgon, it affects Enkidu's saint graph when interacting with her in events. You barely hit and miss this. Quetz kiss was removed because Nasu said her relationship with the self insert was platonic and a love toward humanity in her material. It was a good change (afaik, the command spell thing was first in the Stage). I never complained about Merlin. He was done pretty well for all his screentime (they did remove a few things, but this didn't bother me because it didn't mess with the essentials). As for Da Vinci, they had more scenes with her because they changed the Chaldea mission control from showing Roman as a blue screen (and only a couple of times to Da Vinci) to show what they do in Chaldea and be mostly audio only for some reason. Tho she didn't have a lot to do besides being Roman's personal coffee maker. That's ok, she'll have more screentime in Camelot. Fujimaru's spotlight. He got his ass saved by everybody and did almost nothing for 17 episodes. This doesn't mean he didn't have a spotlight and doesn't excuse the forced scene in the end. |
ThessMar 18, 2020 12:53 AM
| I could say a bit in many regards but I think I'll choose to just avoid this argument. I feel like it would be meaningless and add nothing, it's bias vs bias and the few less biased points I could explore wouldn't weight at all. So yeah, I'll pass. I'll repeat that I think it's exaggerated to say Last Encore (or even Apocrypha) were better handled, even when Babylonia had clear issues. Also something about Camelot I won't mention since I want to hope for that. |
|
| Every episode of Babylonia is really rewatchable, which is more I can say about Apocrypha with its handful of rewatchable episodes. Also, the Babylonia anime generally ends in a satisfying manner (assuming 21 is the epilogue indeed), which is again more than I can say for Apo. |
astroprogs said: Every episode of Babylonia is really rewatchable, which is more I can say about Apocrypha with its handful of rewatchable episodes. Also, the Babylonia anime generally ends in a satisfying manner (assuming 21 is the epilogue indeed), which is again more than I can say for Apo. I disagree. Apocrypha is a thousand better as adaptation. You can criticize the source material but as adaptation it blows Babylonia away with ease. Last Encore suffered mostly on time constraints (half cour), so all its problems as adaptation can be traced from it. Apocrypha didn't have Caules randomly appearing to beat Amakusa in the final scene as Ritsuka was shoehorned in a scene that wasn't his business at all. Babylonia is a complete mess with poor priorities choices, a very badly executed climax and wasting time on superfluous things because of a very clear staff favoritism and bias influencing their professionalism. Not just Ishtar and Ereshkigal, but clearly a plot C character as Ushiwakamaru took up more 'hype' and got more effort poured on her than Tiamat. They just didn't bother with anything unless it involves a Rin clone or Ushi. You can see the complete difference and gap (on how rushed and badly executed too) were the battle against Queztacoalt (random cut transition), the whole mess of Gorgon-Lahmu awakening crammed episode, and the Tiamat arrives to Uruk and onward battle. The actual battle they should have put more efforts were given to F-listers animator while Quetzacoalt in episode 18 and Ushi vs Gorgon (a made up the second battle that didn't even exist in game, and dragged that because someone in the staff is really into Ushiwaka) in episode 8 got the actual pro. The priorities were put in wrong places with an incompetent director in charge (I mean, look at his resume, he's a nobody) hindered the project. It's not even just shoehorned Fujimaru stuff, it has a very schizophrenic pacing where they put more effort on random comedy filler scenes, a character that is just a plot device to make another minor character growth (Ushi) over the climax everybody was hyped for and waiting for. |
ThessMar 18, 2020 9:35 AM
| And yet more people like Babylonia than Apocrypha. It doesnt mean shit if an adaptation is 100% true if the end result is still shit. When some of the scenes that viewers can talk positively about are anime original or modified versions of scenes from the game then it was a job well done. Caules being more relevant would actually make me happy but no the anime went on with Sieg's bs power up asspulls that make him survive Karna's attacks till his trap boyfriend came to the rescue. Yes Fujimaru ruins some scenes.Anyone with half a brain can see that. I dont care. First of all, I havent memorized every line in the game just to be angry at everything they did differently. I dont mind them cutting Gil talking with Romani since I dont even remember it since didnt really made much of impression to me. I dont care how the fight against Quetz was done because even in the game it was stupid.Yes the sudden cut was added in the stupidity that doesnt take away that Fujimaru's train of thought is all over the place depending on what each writer wants to do, including Nasu. Yes Fujimaru's involvement was random and even the explanation for Nega Genesis makes no fucking sense....he still didnt steal the show. They removed Gil's speech but that could have been in the ep even with Fujimaru's sequence. Did I like the Apocrypha anime?Meh.Not really.Some scenes were good. Did I like the Babylonia anime? Hell yeah. LotR book fans also call the movies trash. The casuals love them.No matter how bad the adaptations were they captured the audience. Babylonia is no LotR trilogy but same thing applies. And an adaptation cant be true to the original anyway. It is the best(for many) because it is the one they had the most fun with. |
| Oh, Archer Gil is back, great! Lol they try to make them feel sorry for Tiamat but she is a murderer, no matter how sad that situation is. I don't know why ppl compare this to Apocrypha. Apocrypha failed in nearly everything that tried to achieve except for 3-4 SIDE characters and the last 3-4 last fights. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
| Apocrypha cut out nearly every bit of characterization from important side characters, from Siegfried to Karna to Avicebron to Vlad to Darnic, just to name a few. They cut out the only thing they shouldn't have, which is the flashback/explanation of Amakusa. Cutting the antagonist's past and source of motivation and the whole explanation of what happened (that also explains what in Apo changed compared to FSN) seems like a bit more serious problem than shuffling things and lacking a constant focus and coherence. Which are problems that Babylonia has and it's undeniable, but again, nowhere near Apocrypha. Yet Apo gets a pass. Last Encore's staff said to Nasu to "write whatever he wants without worrying". But they knew how many episodes they had, and still chose that approach that ended up asking too much and cutting and changing almost all of it. And they even cut those parts badly, since they didn't even know how to structure characters properly (do I need to bring up Amari's whole existence?). They seeked more content with less time and then had to fuck it all up. Asking (if they did specifically ask for it instead of being given them) for 21 episodes instead of 24/25 is also asinine, but nowhere near the level Last Encore reached. Yet Last Encore gets a pass. And that's not to deny faults that Babylonia had (because it had a good amount of them), but they need to be put into perspective. Btw both LE and Apo are fine for me (like, both literally "fine" and as a "6/10 on MAL fine"), but by that measure then Babylonia is definetly better. And again, I didn't like certain things and it could've been far better. But is it worse than LE or Apo? Worse than anything from Prillya past S1? No, definetly not. But that's it, I won't say more than this since I think it wouldn't go anywhere and the discussion would just poison itself. |
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| I waited 20 episodes for my boy Gil to fucking wreck the shit out of Tiamat and I must say that it felt SO GOOD. |
http://steinsgate.jp/10th/ FGO:591,495,201 (NA) |
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