| In short, to what extent do you think it is appropriate or permissable for an anime to require foreknowledge of another work it extensively references or otherwise draws influence from? Is it okay to require prior knowledge of said other work(s) in order to understand the anime's point, or should it be capable of being fully understood standalone with the references/influences serving as a bonus? Does it make a difference to you if the potential required foreknowledge comes from another anime as opposed to, say, a piece of classical literature? I personally draw the line in terms of whether or not an anime appears to be intended as a direct response to other works. If it's a direct response of sorts, then requiring foreknowledge to fully understand the anime is okay, but otherwise it should be capable of standing on its own. I'm curious what others think of this. |
TripleSRank said: In short, to what extent do you think it is appropriate or permissable for an anime to require foreknowledge of another work it extensively references or otherwise draws influence from? Is it okay to require prior knowledge of said other work(s) in order to understand the anime's point, or should it be capabale of being fully understood standalone with the references/influences serving as a bonus? Does it make a difference to you if the potential required foreknowledge comes from another anime as opposed to, say, a piece of classical literature? I personally draw the line in terms of whether or not an anime appears to be intended as a direct response to other works. If it's a direct response of sorts, then requiring foreknowledge to fully understand the anime is okay, but otherwise it should be capable of standing on its own. I'm curious what others think of this. Maybe if it is a piece of work from the same author. |
| what anime is a direct response to other work? |
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romagia said: what anime is a direct response to other work? As far as one work in direct response to a singular other work goes, I only have one example: Revolutionary Girl Utena can be interpreted as a direct response to Sailor Moon, though I think it works well standalone anyway. Some works are said to be responses to their entire genre, such as NGE-- though I cannot verify that specific example. This question is most often relevant for symbolism-heavy anime since I've often seen claims that they reference or have influences from other works, such as classical literature. I'm of the opinion that even in such cases the key to understanding the anime should be clearly contained within the anime unless, as I said, it was intended as a direct response to the influencing work in the first place. |
| I'm going to side with being a standalone product 10 times out of 10, unless the reason why it shouldn't be is something on the far end of obvious like being a spin-off to a main series or its a very, very transparent response. I'd probably still just be annoyed with the latter if I were interested in something but were made to watch something else that I wasn't as interested in just so I can be able to fully grasp it, though. I feel like these sorts of things can be contained in their own way - Konosuba is kind of a ribbing take on fantasy RPG isekai and it certainly doesn't hurt to be familiar with at least the major works from these types of series over the past few years, but I wouldn't call it a parody or anything else of that nature because it doesn't really rely on references or prior knowledge to work in of itself and manages to strike a balance between being that sort of spin on the genre but also being self-contained enough to where it could likely be enjoyed by somebody wholly unfamiliar with those types of anime. That's my ideal in these sorts of situations. It can be clearly interpreted for being as much in several instances, but the jokes and situations or whatever else it may use as its attempt at being entertaining are generally used in a way that doesn't necessitate being completely familiar from the works it seems to be a bit of a response to. Then again, I'm just completely disinterested in things like parodies or deconstructions or even things that make extensive use of referential humor, which seem to be the most common types of responses to works, so I'm probably a bit biased here since I find stuff like that to be unbearably pretentious at worst and just sort of grating at best. Meta stuff in general makes it more difficult for me to immerse myself in what's happening on the screen because the parallels its going to force itself to draw can be pretty difficult to avoid but can also hamper the experience if you're not entirely sure what the point of certain aspects of it are. Self-contained things that can work as a standalone product but can also easily be interpreted as being responsive to other types of works seems to be a very nice balance that wouldn't alienating to people who are unfamiliar with the works its meant to respond to but also would still allow for some kind of response to be made while also not using any of the other products in question as a crutch to do what it wanted to do. |
ManabanJun 22, 2017 3:36 AM
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| Personally, I'm okay with works that reference qualia, quantum mechanics and giant robots at the same time, as long as I can make sense of them. That said, lack of context seems to be the main reason people don't like works like Earth Girl Arjuna. That show requires the sort of dubious mystical knowledge that teenage me has gathered in abundance, but modern kids can't make sense of it. TripleSRank said: Some works are said to be responses to their entire genre, such as NGE-- though I cannot verify that specific example. NGE can be watched standalone (in fact, I've seen very little mecha before I first watched it), but it does, indeed, play off numerous genre conventions. Something along the lines of "what kind of father leaves his son for years, only to present him with a giant robot that only the son can use?!". Someone as bad/crazy as Gendo, that's the sort of father who does it. In that time period, there were already numerous works that thought to subvert mecha genre. Macross and Kidou Senkan Nadeshiko are two known cases. Evangelion is the most incisive, and Macross became what it fought against. |
flannan said: was that really a thing in pre-eva mecha?TripleSRank said: Some works are said to be responses to their entire genre, such as NGE-- though I cannot verify that specific example. NGE can be watched standalone (in fact, I've seen very little mecha before I first watched it), but it does, indeed, play off numerous genre conventions. Something along the lines of "what kind of father leaves his son for years, only to present him with a giant robot that only the son can use?!". Someone as bad/crazy as Gendo, that's the sort of father who does it. like gundam and getter robo and whatnot |
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romagia said: flannan said: was that really a thing in pre-eva mecha?NGE can be watched standalone (in fact, I've seen very little mecha before I first watched it), but it does, indeed, play off numerous genre conventions. Something along the lines of "what kind of father leaves his son for years, only to present him with a giant robot that only the son can use?!". Someone as bad/crazy as Gendo, that's the sort of father who does it. like gundam and getter robo and whatnot I have not personally seen an anime like this. In fact, my knowledge of pre-1990 anime is sparse. I do know people with no experience got to pilot mecha back in 1982 Macross already. |
TripleSRank said: If it's a direct response of sorts, then requiring foreknowledge to fully understand the anime is okay, but otherwise it should be capable of standing on its own. I would only add that one should be aware that their lack of knowledge/experience might influence how they perceive certain works. |
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
| Sometimes, knowing an anime first before watching a similiar anime is not that important, but recommended as well. Usually, this happens to a complicated anime series such as NGE or Madoka Magica, but as you watch, you'll be elaborated with what's going on and several terms of it. |
| It's time to play the Game folks! |
| I don't think it should be necessary to have seen a tonne of different anime to just enjoy one anime. Knowledge/experience of watching other anime should just be a supplementary thing. If you can't get any enjoyment out of a joy without have seen a bunch of others I would consider that a bad show. |
 "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
romagia said: flannan said: was that really a thing in pre-eva mecha?NGE can be watched standalone (in fact, I've seen very little mecha before I first watched it), but it does, indeed, play off numerous genre conventions. Something along the lines of "what kind of father leaves his son for years, only to present him with a giant robot that only the son can use?!". Someone as bad/crazy as Gendo, that's the sort of father who does it. like gundam and getter robo and whatnot In the original Mobile Suit Gundam Amuro's dad was one of the main designers for the revolutionary Gundam. Amuro had piloted mini-mecha in tournaments, but had no experience operating a full sized mecha, let alone one difficult to operate like the Gundam. It was less that Amuro was the only one who could operate it an more that due to a string of circumstances someone had to keep operating it and he was the most qualified: The entire premise of MSG's plot is that the Federation had done secret military research and development at a civilian outpost rather than a military outpost, so when Zeon discovered it and attacked it a bunch of civilians got dragged into the war against their will in order to survive. Zeta Gundam had its protag manage to steal the titular mecha through a series of circumstances as the plot-starting event. That's a heavily limited extent of oldschool mecha experience, but having the protagonist be very upset at being forced to pilot a mecha does not sound subversive to either of those. However, if you mean the unusual element was aimed more at exploring how horrible the father is, neither of the above explored their respective protagonists' father issues in depth despite some developments here and there. Paul_Levesque said: Usually, this happens to a complicated anime series such as NGE or Madoka Magica, but as you watch, you'll be elaborated with what's going on and several terms of it. Having watched a fair amount of classical mahou shoujo-- Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and a few iterations of Precure-- Madoka Magica does not appear to be particularly subversive to me. The most unusual part of the story relative to the rest of the genre is Kyuubei's ultimate status as the antagonist. Classical mahou shoujo, particularly in the case of Sailor Moon, is no stranger to suffering; I would even argue that Sailor Moon is more cynical despite being less gritty. |
TripleSRankJun 22, 2017 4:48 PM
| >Influence >Reference The reason why there's a lot of isekai series just suddenly popping around? I also found out that there's a LN that is being made that's basically like Oregairu... :/ |
TripleSRank said: As far as one work in direct response to a singular other work goes, I only have one example: Revolutionary Girl Utena can be interpreted as a direct response to Sailor Moon, though I think it works well standalone anyway. As far as I know, Utena was made by a part of the Sailor Moon staff, who were fed up with the latter's concept and wanted to do something different with the same premise. In that, Utena would only indirectly be a response to Sailor Moon, as it tries to avoid to do the same, but not because it wants to comment on the other show. But I'm not sure about this. As for any other medium, an Anime is only good for me if it is standalone, even if it is a response to another story. If a show is a parody of another one, I'd still expect it to be funny no matter whether I have watched that other show or not. Because to me that is a sign of good writing. If an Anime references things from another show, it's fine as long as they are not necessary to understand thel story. It might even get me interested in the other show, if this is done decently. |
| It's okay for shows to have a reliance on other works and prior knowledge before walking in. However, I'd then ask if that knowledge is then only way to get any enjoyment, entertainment, or even value out of a show. As in, if a show revolved around, say, drinking fine alcohol, what can you do if you don't know anything or have no interests in alcohol or the working lives of adults? It's not necessarily the mark of a badly made show, but it demonstrates a level of exclusion and alienation. Though, for the thread's question, in the best cases, having extra knowledge can make for nice Easter Eggs, while you could still enjoy the show without thinking too hard. In more questionable shows, the references would try to be leveraged clumsily to try and make the show seem smarter or have more self-importance than it really had. In the harshest cases, the show would outright exclude viewers. At that point, I would hope that the anime actually makes those references relevant and not just do arbitrary reference drops, else it would be extra work for the viewers without much return. |
n8fury said: TripleSRank said: As far as one work in direct response to a singular other work goes, I only have one example: Revolutionary Girl Utena can be interpreted as a direct response to Sailor Moon, though I think it works well standalone anyway. As far as I know, Utena was made by a part of the Sailor Moon staff, who were fed up with the latter's concept and wanted to do something different with the same premise. In that, Utena would only indirectly be a response to Sailor Moon, as it tries to avoid to do the same, but not because it wants to comment on the other show. But I'm not sure about this. You've opened a door for me to talk about something I've been wanting to ever since I finished Utena, but I would like to preface again that Utena works well standalone. What you're saying is somewhat right. Although Utena doesn't have the same premise-- even calling it a mahou shoujo is debatable despite having heavy influences from the genre-- it did indeed come into being due to dissatifactions Ikuhara had with Sailor Moon's overall thematic direction. (Ikuhara directed the majority of Sailor Moon R and the entirety of Sailor Moon S, for context.) As far as I know, he repeatedly wanted to kill off Tuxedo Mask and wanted to do more with Sailors Uranus and Neptune than he already had with Sailor Moon S in a side movie, so when Toei wouldn't let him he split off to start doing his own thing. I personally think it was for the best since I don't think his vision meshed well with Sailor Moon's even to the extent he was able to with Sailor Moon S (I strongly believe that Sailor Moon S was the worst Sailor Moon season for thematic reasons), plus Utena turned out quite well in its own right. With that in mind, you can certainly understand Utena's plot and thematic narrative without having watched Sailor Moon, but I'd say there is definitely an additional layer and context that only comes out with prior knowledge of all of the Sailor Moon seasons and thus Sailor Moon's full thematic narrative. Knowing what Utena has to say and knowing that it is saying what it says in opposition to something creates a meta narrative that does not exist by watching Utena standalone. I definitely wouldn't say someone needs to watch Sailor Moon first, but it does allow for those contrasting parallels to come out. If you're interested in a summary of the contrasts, I can provide them, but keep in mind that doing so requires spoiling the thematic endpoints of both Sailor Moon (as contained in Sailor Stars, which I believe may qualify as a magnum opus of the medium and in itself solidifies Sailor Moon's classic status) and Revolutionary Girl Utena: To anyone who hasn't seen both and has any intention of possibly watching them in the future, I would recommend not reading the spoilered. Both believe evil can be overcome and that learning how it is overcome is part of growing up, though I'd say Utena contains even heavier cynicism without nearly as much counterbalancing idealism, and thus I find it much less compelling than Sailor Moon. Ironically enough, despite the thematic narrative in many ways making an argument, from that persepctive I actually think the gains one gets from being aware of Utena's meta narrative is mixed. Since it can be understood standalone anyway, that is why I do not push for people to watch Sailor Moon first. |
TripleSRankJun 22, 2017 8:29 PM
| I think that an anime needs something to be good regardless of which work it's referencing. Even if it's a direct respond to an older story, it should still have enough good elements to make it enjoyable without the extra knowledge. But in a way, every opinion we have of any anime is based on a priori knowledge. So I'm open to the argument that 'you need to watch X to understand Y', but I'd also want a good enough reason to make that effort. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
_Ako_ said: >Influence >Reference The reason why there's a lot of isekai series just suddenly popping around? I also found out that there's a LN that is being made that's basically like Oregairu... :/ I think it's more like there have always been isekai novels/manga, but when SAO makes big money, all the producers suddenly want to make their own isekai anime and get some of that money too. That said, yes, newer works are always influenced by the previous works, this is expected. If we are lucky, they take things that were good, drop things that were bad, add something of their own and become even better works. If we are not lucky, they become a cargo cult, taking the outward signs of the previous work, and not providing anything that actually made previous work good. |
TripleSRank said: In short, to what extent do you think it is appropriate or permissable for an anime to require foreknowledge of another work it extensively references or otherwise draws influence from? I believe requiring knowledge to appreciate any piece of art is basically erecting a barrier to entry and that is tremendously unhelpful. However, not all pieces of art are meant for popular consumption. It all depends on your audience. Some art is for one's own consumption, some is for a small group of people or a single demographic, and some is for the public at large. Literature of all kinds, from Homer to David Foster Wallace, is full of references and little "easter eggs" if you are well-read. These can help enhance your experience. The same goes for anime. If the show is for popular consumption, then demanding literacy in various antecedents could hinder your demographic appeal and limit the audience you will reach. |
| Do you also mean Literature-influenced anime or Historical anime ? Like Stray dogs, drifters, etc.... I think knowledge can boast enjoyment of those kind series, but i don't think they can't be enjoyed without knowledge as the references are built in an underlying layer beneath that of the actual story. They're like a treat and help appreciate more what you are watching. |
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Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: In short, to what extent do you think it is appropriate or permissable for an anime to require foreknowledge of another work it extensively references or otherwise draws influence from? I believe requiring knowledge to appreciate any piece of art is basically erecting a barrier to entry and that is tremendously unhelpful. However, not all pieces of art are meant for popular consumption. It all depends on your audience. Some art is for one's own consumption, some is for a small group of people or a single demographic, and some is for the public at large. Literature of all kinds, from Homer to David Foster Wallace, is full of references and little "easter eggs" if you are well-read. These can help enhance your experience. The same goes for anime. If the show is for popular consumption, then demanding literacy in various antecedents could hinder your demographic appeal and limit the audience you will reach. What about shows that are sequels, thus require you to watch previous installments? What do you do with them? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: What about shows that are sequels, thus require you to watch previous installments? What do you do with them? There are two kinds of sequels--the stand-alone kind which doesn't require knowledge, and the kind that is really a chapter in a greater work. And remember, I said: It all depends on your audience. Some art is for one's own consumption, some is for a small group of people or a single demographic, and some is for the public at large. If a sequel requires the viewer to have seen the previous film to understand what is going on, then it can fairly be said that 1) it is a single segment of a larger work of art, and 2) the target audience is comprised of people who have already seen the previous installment(s). I should also note that this is a spectrum, not a black-and-white dichotomy. The Two Towers will not be as enjoyable if you haven't read The Fellowship of the Ring, yet you don't really have to watch Alien to enjoy Aliens, and Dirty Harry is totally unnecessary to enjoy Magnum Force. |
| Anime's really good at introducing a people to things like sequels or stories based off of other things, so even if you did require knowledge of a previous anime/piece for an anime, the anime would probably explain most of that knowledge so you would understand what's going on. It looks hard for there not to be things like easter eggs or previous info for the Gundam series. I only watched Gundam Seed though. |
Fvlminatvs said: TheBrainintheJar said: What about shows that are sequels, thus require you to watch previous installments? What do you do with them? There are two kinds of sequels--the stand-alone kind which doesn't require knowledge, and the kind that is really a chapter in a greater work. And remember, I said: It all depends on your audience. Some art is for one's own consumption, some is for a small group of people or a single demographic, and some is for the public at large. If a sequel requires the viewer to have seen the previous film to understand what is going on, then it can fairly be said that 1) it is a single segment of a larger work of art, and 2) the target audience is comprised of people who have already seen the previous installment(s). I should also note that this is a spectrum, not a black-and-white dichotomy. The Two Towers will not be as enjoyable if you haven't read The Fellowship of the Ring, yet you don't really have to watch Alien to enjoy Aliens, and Dirty Harry is totally unnecessary to enjoy Magnum Force. That's a good way of putting it. Do you think that works that rely heavily on references (Ulysses, I think may fit that or parody-heavy anime) are similar in nature? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| It's fine to require knowledge from others works. Some anime will be very niche but then again there's no problem with this. |
TheBrainintheJar said: That's a good way of putting it. Do you think that works that rely heavily on references (Ulysses, I think may fit that or parody-heavy anime) are similar in nature? I'd say so. Ulysses was certainly written with a specific audience in mind. It was very avant-garde for its time. |
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