Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 17 Discussion

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Nov 9, 2016 3:26 AM

Stark700

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Nov 2011

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THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
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Ah so we get some info dump about Kamisato Kakeru and Kihara Yuiitsu already plus some of the events that occurred from the previous volumes.

A decent set up for the rest of the volume so far. For some reason, I find the cover of this volume to be kinda amusing to see too.

Nov 23, 2016 10:52 PM

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564534

Wow, this volume was something. Touma wasn't kidding around when he said he would go all-out. Mikoto's development feels like it will be touched upon later on in the story. A curse from the keikaku man himself feels like something important.

The Magic Gods were pretty amusing this volume too. It was satisfying to see Kamisato get knocked down a few notches in NT16/17. Fran was also a good girl.

Yuiitsu's plan is crazy, but I didn't really care for her as a villain. And finally, my boy Tsuchimikado made the volume. Aleister's role seems to be slowly increasing lately.

I'm looking forward to the next arc now that shit seems to be hitting the fan again. NT11-18 has just felt like a few mini-arcs that set up some stuff for the future, and Kamisato's character fell flat. I'm sure he'll be back at some point so hopefully he isn't as annoying with his arc being over.

Dec 7, 2016 6:27 PM

GAccelX

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Dec 2016

Is Misaka going to be saved by Touma cuz It gave me a bad flavor when she convulsed?

Dec 10, 2016 4:48 AM

allenjke

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Jul 2012

1774

Usually i'm willing to wait for the full piece to come out, i mean the whole text obv and the illustrations (they were added just recently). I'll begin with a little turn back to the previous volume and my comment how i didn't like it that much. Not taking my words back, but if to take in account this volume and the development about Kamisato i think i could've added some points to the score of vol.16. Again my main problem was the appearance of Kamisato and his faction, was it really needed or why did it happen. Mb one of the reasons was that i liked the MG desings and it was rather strange that they were out of the picture so easily (and this volume MG were again amazing). With all this being said i think that Kamisato's arc and conclusion was very good, and now i assume that we won't see him again, and if before i thought why he was added before, now i feel it's not right that he simply left. The last thing about vol.16 which still exist for me is how disconnected the 2 parts of the volume are.
To start about the volume i'll say finally Saten appeared as a "person" and not as someone is mentioning her. The whole running from Kamisato faction part was pretty good and as always had clever quirks sometimes, very resembling old chase scenes. If to mention scecifically, the scene with Touma wearing a costume and Fran's reaction were pretty expected, but still very funny.
Well i guess i'll move to 1 of the main themes of the volume, the groups - shelters, and the relationships in AC. That was always the question for me how it works, just to remember the whole railgun skillout situation and i still don't have an answer. Mb it wasn't that important or visible, but this time the whole volume is constructed around that. And knowing that 80% of the population of AC are students, basically children how are they ruthless even in those extraordinary circumstances. And if talking about adults, i think it should be Useful Spider. I don't know if i'm the only one, but i think that they are most likely Anti-skill members and to think what they've doing this volume is just goes beyond my understanding. Mb it's because one of the best example Anti-skill member we see is Yomikawa Aiho that it is even more crazy, but still they are all(most of them) teachers. "Surprisingly" no one died (except the leader guy who was saved by Touma, but the scene with him against Aleister was very good) and if to say that it was intentional by students risking their lives and Useful Spider (i mean they were using the neede amount of power even if it didn't felt like it) i think it's better rather than people dying left and right. Don't like to compare things myself, but as an example i'll mention Mahouka where the high-school kids are simply killing people left and right, and that was such a turn-off for me for the series. Not saying that Mahouka is bad or something or not starting a war between the series, just wanted to emphasize the fact about killing and this series is the best example i think. And last thing to add to this theme how easily they all changed after Fran's confession. I think there were couple of similar moments throughout the series, but this time it felt like their decision came out of nowhere and the helicopter scene when all the Useful Spider members just forgot about Kamijou and Fran being criminals just didn't feel right.
Now to talk about Mikoto's appearance. Firsty i'll say that her desing on the color illustration looks amazing <3. But to the point, the first feeling was that it was very dark and totally unexpected.
I don't think there was many dark moments, the sisters arc (especially railgun version), the battle with Aqua, against Silvia. Didn't think that she would get to the point where she would even consider to act trying to kill people. I always thought that she is such a pure character from this series and that's why it was very surprising. And yeah she is just a adolescent girl, but still i was caught off guard here. Obv by "coincidence" she was heading to the shelter where Kamijo was so it all played out well. Plus the little afterscenes from Mikoto realizing the situation between them. And again all that happened because of the main theme for the volume, she and i assume Tokiwadai also was helping people and they just rummaged through theis school after.
The contact with A.A.A. and curse Abrakadabra was crazy, i assume that Aleister didn't plan to kill Mikoto (or i hope she is rather sturdy), but i hope he won't get away that easily and i think it's early to talk about it but it will have some connection in the future.
The next thing should be the magic circle made by Luca and whole Kamisato faction situation. I think it was very cool chain of events, the battle on the Useful sider base, and especially the scene where Kamijou showing Fran the way, felt the very Kamijou-like. The running/driving from Kamisato faction scenes, the fight with Ellen, the whole chase was always very cool. I think the strange part was why the first ritual was a failure, and yeah mb because of Maya's interference, but i'm asking it cause i feel like if there was a little bit more details on the failure it would've been much better.
And the question which is not only for this volume, but from the moment Kamisato appeared - the Kamisato faction. Kamachi in the end gave some little info that they are simply were formed around Kamisato and i assume that was also MG doing. If so i don't think that there's really need to discuss it, but still no to think about the scale of powers they had is very strange. They had such crazy powers which were given them randomly and some of them using magic freely, plus their vision on attacking people or even killing them. Again don't think that i should continue on this matter more, just wrote some obvious questions.
The chain of events with MG and Kamisato. Still pretty sad that we (most likely) won't see Niang Niang and Nephtys again. Those were such cool battles and that speech from Niang Niang was amazing. Always was interested about the scale of their power and as she mentioned the age of HP i want to assume that it might've connected to some % of their power or wisdom, even if it's a really minor thing. And remembering the Othinus phase ability, i thought it was so powerful so what's the capabilities of others and Crowley. Plus if (if) she destroyed in the end the world what could Aleister change, well that was another useless question =/
Well to the last thing, the appearance of Tsuchimikado was really cool and the last thing that it is Touma was pretty expected, but finally the things are moving. Always thought that all those events were under Aleister's control and the first unexpected thing was Kamisato, mb i'm overstimating(ed) him and seems like he didn't expect Tsuchimikado's (didn't he?).
With all that being said i think that was an amazing volume 8.5-9/10, i feel like all those my questions were like nitpicking, but still i needed to say it. And in the afterword Kamachi mentioned if she is alive or not, so i assume that she probably is =/
And that would be the end of my essay, if there would be someone to read this TLDR - feel free to discuss.

allenjkeDec 10, 2016 6:03 AM

Dec 14, 2016 4:58 AM

Zaphkiel_El_Rem

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Jun 2012

3795

This is the only volume which I honestly liked some of Kamisato's faction, mainly Luca. Especially when she and Fran conducted the plan to make an alchemy circuit around the district.

So Aleister never really have thought that far ahead in his plan like Aizen did. And it was because the way of the world won't let him do so, therefore, how wicked could this"plan" he is building up would lead to? I wonder if he will make use of Touma's reference point as well.

Overall, this arc closes satisfyingly, I've learn too much Information manipulation.

Also, "School Nurse always seems sexy cause the infirmary has a bed." > Best Fact.

Dec 15, 2016 10:02 PM

aostri

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Oct 2015

Heya allenjke, how have you been?
In a somewhat off topic and somewhat off the politness code question, are you into dakimakura, index and railgun have a prity good collection, my own idol though despite being one of the key characters of her world doesn't have a good one of her own and i'm not sure if i'm sad about it or not.

anyway more to the topic.

i don't think the Kamisato story is entirely over yet, unless the author is going to start a Tchimikado harem the U.F.O girl will probably get reintegrated into Kamisto's harem before the Kamisato faction join's the minor and mostly forgoten characters club.
Also after 4 volumes of making Kamisato a more and more central character, ending his arc on the note that it was all for the purpose of setting the stage for Aleister becoming a more active antagonist does seem rather drawn out.

Is Saten popular enough to warrant a meaningful appearance outside a railgun spin-off story?

With the normal bounds of society being broken kids and teenagers can be as savage and ruthless as adults.
Given that and the limited manpower and resources of Useful Spider, their response is actually pretty reasonable, not only as a way of suppressing the more violent and destructive groups but also as a means of redirecting the focus of the said groups to Useful Spider and thus lowering the damage these groups cause to other more peaceful groups.

As i couldn't ( and still can't ) get my mind off an R18+ interpretation of what happened after the walls of the school garden were broken and the commoners found all the high class girls within beaten and unable to defend themselves, i actually find Mikoto's psychotic breakdown to be far too mellow.

While i was initially also quite upset about Aleister trying to kill Mikoto rather than recruting her to his side, i then realized that the Golden Retriever was possibly something like Aliester's best/closest/most trusted/only friend, as such Yuitsu is something like his departed best friends grieving and rebellious daughter, whereas Mikoto is essentially a total stranger looting his best friends house in is absence, looking at it from that perspective Aliester's actions become a lot more understandable and sympathisable.
Also as a working man with some small amount of responsibility and being part of a production line that really does feel like it's being sabotaged by gremlins, i quite sympathize with Crawley's existential frustration at nothing that you're doing ever going as per plan. ( even though that seeing him lose his cool is a bit annoying as he is my favorite character in the story and the main reason that i didn't lose interest in the anime after finishing watching the first anime season).

Could you clarify on what you mean by Mikoto realising the situation between them?

The first ritual failed because it's material focus/key catalist got destroyed before the ritual finished, right?

Dec 16, 2016 2:14 AM

allenjke

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Jul 2012

1774

Hello @aostri, thanks for asking and i'm fine. How have you been?
I'm not really into dakimakura, have some minor stuff like keychains and the "famous" coins, always wanted a figurine, but they are pretty expensive and still planning one day a trip to Japan and therefore a big shopping spree :D

About Kamisato, the way it was shown felt like he left once and for all. Plus i don't know what he can contribute to the story besides his faction which i think will kinda nullify/overshadow his character, and still do not approve a lot of their actions.

Well i assume that quite a lot of index fans/readers read/watched railgun therefore people always wanted Saten to show up, she was such a nice and cool character in railgun. It doesn't have much meaning or mb even feels random, but mb she would be somewhat relevant in the future. Plus her appearance again adds point to railgun being canon =/

I agree with what you're saying about how kids and teenagers could act in extreme conditions, but i feel like the way they acted was too ruthless. Plus that not only counts students, the Useful Spider which supposed to be adults (which i assume should be Anti Skill members so most likely teachers) tried to resort the situation via crazy and very dangerous methods. And what appears to be even more strange that all of them simply agreed to help Fran. I'm not saying that how it was handled is bad, i liked it and it was very "index"-like outcome, but it doesn't change the fact that most of the actions and behavious were very illogical.

About Mikoto's breakdown again want to say that this moment was very surprising to me and i think it was pretty fresh experience even as dark as it was. And again all that's happened cause of the aforementioned problem.

I don't think Aleister tried to kill Mikoto, again i may be overstimating him but i feel like he has some more dangerous/lethal stuff up his sleeve, but Miki probably won't allow that to happen.
Aleister might've considered Noukan as a friend, but mb only a little bit and i think it was Noukan who saw Aleister as a friend and tried to help him. Your analogies are interesting, but overall i feel like he just sees them all as his pawns and yet again i might overstimate him, i feel like i always will until he falls under my "pressure" :) Plus i think you're connecting it to A.A.A. usage and i'm interested if it will be relevant for Aleister ever again cause i see it again only as a needed part for the happening stage, for Mikoto i think obviously yes, but with her own approach like she constructed it herself. And i'll accept that Tsuchimikado's appearance was out of his plan (was it? =/), but i hope we'll get his view (even minor glimplse) on the situation next volume.

"Could you clarify on what you mean by Mikoto realising the situation between them?" Nothing special, just meant the small interactions when she realized that she was hugging him without noticing, explanations about Luca and Fran, just simple comedy/"light ecchi" scenes.

About the first ritual, yes i think so too, but it felt like it wasn't that elaborated as it should be, kinda like some info was torn out for some reason.

And i can't believe that we're finally going down to the final stage, now i'm more excited for the next volume!

Dec 16, 2016 11:10 PM

aostri

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Oct 2015

hey again, i'm good as well.

i could never really get the point of going to japan as an anime fan, real-world japan is essentially a different place from the one existing in most anime worlds after all.

"and still do not approve a lot of their actions", meaning that that there are some actiones of theirs that you do find approvable?
i do have to agree that especially in a tachimikado story there isn't really anything left for kamisato to do and with his harem staying more or less as it was, UFO girl rejoining it would feel more than if she finds something better to do.

With the magic and science side slowly merging and converging i guess Saten could gain a bit of magical aptitude.
While Railgun is probably canon, it's plot line happens in what seems to be a rather distant past (not in a literal sense of elapsed time but in the contextual sense of the things happening there not being really relevant to the main plot line).

Long before the current disaster AC already had both skillout and the uncaring espers that gave skillout members their feelings of inferiority and desire for revenge, also the dark side wouldn't be really meaningful if it wouldn't have influenced to some extent the majority of AC's population, and then as well specialized esper correction facilities and the very existence of anti-skill and judgment in the first place rather clearly implies that AC's student population isn't really a collection of the brightest and the best who could go through an end of the world scenario without going crazy.

i doubt Usefull spider was composed of anti-skill members because:

If that were the case they would have probably clearly identified themselves as anti-skill as that would have gone a long way to restore a feeling of normality and order in and of itself.
Anti-skill probably wore itself out trying to fight the elements.

And as to the validity of Useful spiders response, again, remember that they had limited resources and were trying to contain a population of rampaging espers, using half-measures was unlikely to be enough.
As for suddenly switching to helping UFO girl out, this did feel like a rather heavy handed plot twist, but with their main base destroyed and the Kamisato girls going berserk all around AC, it is rather permissible that they would be at their rope's end and willing to try anything out.

Mikoto's slight breakdown did feel a bit fresh, but remembering her first encounter with Touma and general behavior through both railgun and index storylines, moderation and self restraint were never her strong points so her actions weren't that out of character.

"the situation between Mikoto and Touma" - *sigh* for a moment i thought you shared my momentary delusion about their epilogue scene suggesting that she came to understand that her crush on Touma was fairly one sided and decided to redefine their relationship to a more businesslike/detached/pragmatic approach of "if he gets into trouble it's probably something too important to ignore and count on him and others to sort it out on their own" ... i guess not.

The A.A.A. was created as a weapon to fight against the magic gods, now that they are gone Aliester shouldn't have any more use for it.
A.A.A. Mikoto could probably a well selling line of action figurines so that plot item would probably stay for the long run.

Aleister not really wanting to kill Mikoto, dunno, i don't really see why would he care if he doesn't see her as a valuable patriot or has some other as of yet undisclosed connection to her ( she has clones + she is a spiting image of her mother + Aliester is more than 100 years old + Aliester conducted experiments on his own daughter ?=? she is Aliesters granddaughter ) .

Anime/manga in general and index/railgun specifically have a thing for showing how how most "evil" people aren't really that "bad" once you understand their history and context.
In Aliesters case, he is more than a hundred years old and has gone thorough a lot of tragedy and loss, also most (or all ) of the things he ever tried to accomplish and create ended up going awry.
As such my interpretation of him is that he is not a cold and ruthless manipulator but rather someone who is emotionally numb/tries to suppress and ignore his feelings and is desperate to accomplish something that would give his existence a meaning.
Therefor i think that while he wasn't willing to admit it to himself, he really did care and emotionally depend on Kihara Noukan and was hit pretty hard by Noukan's death.

Dec 17, 2016 2:40 AM

allenjke

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Jul 2012

1774

To sum up to the main theme, my point is that during the events (and i wanted to add the skill-out, rampaging espers, students attacking Accelerator while he was "weak") the crossing line for to kill or not was very thin and as how this universe works there's not such thing as death. And for the Kamisato faction, my view of Kamisato is that he is a good guy, he was only obsessed with killing MG, so even his faction doing all that they can to save him he should question their actions and scold them. Kamachi himself said that it as somewhat miracle that all people stayed alive during the dome fight. I might be trying to see only the bright side of AC mb as Touma does so because this volume has pretty dark atmosphere that was why it concerned me that much.

About Anti-skill being Useful Spider that was just my guess, but if not then i feel it's kinda strange that we don't see them, well that could be applied to Accel who probably alone could've change situation for so many shelters.

About Mikoto's behaviour, i think her firing railgun at Touma should/could be considered as a joke (as strange as it is) and she said it herself that she acts violently only towards him (mb Kuroko =/). And here i will disagree, she might be impatient and doesn't show restraint sometimes, but it was always to help someone. For example the moment when she met Touma all injured heading to fight Aqua, she didn't just let him go, obv she wanted to help, but didn't know how, or if for the recent one - her reaction when Touma wanted to help a girl when HP was chasing them, she obv approved his action and said if he acted otherwise she would be mad,

. And that's why i always saw her as a pure character and exactly that's why i think this action was out of her character and pretty sure that's why it feels kinda refreshing but with the dark tone. I might be obv biased towards my favourite character, but i'm (trying) to be objective for the most time and this time i don't think i was (that) biased.

"the situation between Mikoto and Touma" - as much as i want i don't think that the romantic develpoment or rather there wouldn't be much development. But i'm pretty surprised that Touma sometimes mentioned Mikoto and thought what she was doing in the Elements heat situation, which was pretty random, but might be some (very) minor signs to the happy romance ending. Well at least she acknowledged her feelings herself, mb already for quite some time. I think the most possible outcome could be that the series will end and there could be special/SS with the OTP ending for the fans.

That's some crazy theory about Mikoto, well i highly doubt it. Still remember that phrase from Kihara Amata to Accel, it was something why do you think 3rd-ranked railgun used for Radio-Noise project instead of you, the 1st-ranked one? Pretty sure it wasn't mentioned/explained before, the explanation might be simply because she is electromaster and for the network, but then again what was even the point questioning it, or mb Amata didn't know much himself.

Now that i think of, he clearly had a grudge againts MG, but what's his view about them now, he should know/knows that they still exist in a different world, but mb he is satisfied with the end for them. Well i'm not, but pretty sure we won't see them again.

Was quite a long time for the full-out science volume, mb this time with some minor Fran's participation as magic side.

allenjkeDec 17, 2016 7:04 AM

Dec 17, 2016 5:18 AM

#10

aostri

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Oct 2015

By the first encounter between Mikoto and Touma i referred to way back in the early stages of the railgun story when she intentionally let some random gang try and molest her and Touma tried to save her.

again, anti-skill was probably too damaged by trying to fight the elements to do anything and acceerator probably run out of battery power.

i don't entirely sympathize with your tastes, but i can't say that anything of what you write is likely to be wrong.

anyway i start feeling disloyal to my own idol, and so be well and farewell for now.

Dec 18, 2016 6:37 AM

#11

allenjke

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Jul 2012

1774

Oh that first encounter, the very first Index scene and i think that it differs a little from Index anime, manga to novel and Railgun anime/manga.

It was nice to talk to you again and Happy Holidays! See you after volume 18 =/

Oh and wanted to add before, #pray for Index 3

Jan 13, 2017 10:43 AM

#12

Devil_Slayer

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Jul 2014

1058

This was literally the worst arc in all of index series , also this arc get affected by the popularity pof the character quiet a bit , Misaka bearly done shit in the main series but in the last 3-4 volumes she must be in the volume even if she just get rekt

Dec 5, 2017 12:31 PM

#13

SpaceTheGamer

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Aug 2015

Well this was a crazy volume and fun one too. Glad to see some development in Kamisato and in his Faction, I also really liked Fran and Luca they were fun characters. And it seems like Mikoto isn't going crazy anymore (I hope) though a curse from the keikau man himself is quite worrisome.

Speaking of Aleister he really comes out quite often as of late and him getting shot by Motoharu was so shocking, like what the hell happened?!?! And the bastard is still alive!!!

Apr 23, 2018 6:17 AM

#14

Hans_0819

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Aug 2010

521

I hope that with this Kamisato is finally out of the picture. The author really overdid Kamisato, he turned from a "normal highschool student" that relied in his right hand to defeat his enemies while having 0 combat experience to being a better and more resourceful fighter than Touma in three days (1 if you ignore the author's fucked up on the dates between volume 15 and 16).

And then you have the mentally unstable faction, I feel like this arc should have ended with Kamisato finishing his faction, seeing what their obsesion for him is really dangerous (and it bothers me that Touma didn't think of this and just let them walk out like nothing without even mentioning anything about it).

Apr 28, 2018 1:03 PM

#15

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564534

Hans_0819 said:
I hope that with this Kamisato is finally out of the picture. The author really overdid Kamisato, he turned from a "normal highschool student" that relied in his right hand to defeat his enemies while having 0 combat experience to being a better and more resourceful fighter than Touma in three days

I don't think he was more proficient than Touma while unarmed, as much as Touma was essentially nerfing himself. He took what Othinus said in NT14 too seriously, and purposely gives himself a harder time so that he won't get too used to using weapons to win. But Kamisato has no morality to uphold, nor does his faction, they'll use any dirty methods to win no matter if someone dies in the process. That's why he's the anti-Touma in any way. Because if their roles were reversed, Kamisato would've finished off the faction (if it was following Touma), because he's the type to cut off a head before it grows too strong, whereas Touma doesn't follow that belief.

Otherwise, he would be trying to deal with the likes of Silvia after she went off the rails in NT10 and almost killed him.

Apr 28, 2018 3:09 PM

#16

Hans_0819

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Aug 2010

521

SPEERS said:

Yeah, you're right. But still, it bothers me that during this volume Touma gives Kamisato way too many credit, like he considered himself an amateur without any experience in any life threatening situations and Kamisato was an expert with better estrategies than him.

I just hope Kamisato turns into a side character that is almost never mentioned again.

Hans_0819Apr 28, 2018 3:58 PM

May 18, 2020 9:11 AM

#17

SomeGuyWithHair

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Jul 2019

1306

Ohhhhh finally, it's over! Good riddance. This arc was made to piss me off! The more I read it, the more I hate Kamisato and his bitches. Kamisato this, Kamisato that, shut up! All you ever do is "saving" Kamisato when what you're doing is in fact the opposite. You're so dependent on him that you can't stand up for yourself and will follow anyone's orders no matter how immoral it is just to achieve your goal. And I agree with Hans above me said. Touma gives Kamisato way too much credit, saying "I can't do this, only he can!" every damn time! There are also things you can do that he can't and that's more impressive! Please never show up again, have fun with your orgy.

Misaka got heavily injured and she returned all fine, did that change anything though? Nope. That's not gonna stop her from using A.A.A. Touma really needs to knock some sense into her. The breakdown though, that was new. It's not like the time during the Sisters arc where it feels hopeless that she will get herself killed to get out of it. This was genuine anger, and I can feel that too. Greedy people can be the worst of the worst.

Where's Tsuchimikado? Finally found him. To be honest, that was unexpected. Also Fran meeting Aleister and teaming up with him. Now they'll ask for Touma's help. Give the man a break. I'm surprised he broke down in the Omega and not here. He's not stressed at all.

Now with that arc done, I wanna see what's next. Looks like Aleister will begin his move. Surprise me Kamachi, what is his absolute plan?

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Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 17 Discussion

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