Okay so I've found that most people likes LoGH and Jojo because of the characters 'manliness' and 'sportivity', which is heavily implied on the show, but as for me, that's also what took account on why I only give LoGH a 9/10 not 10/10. And this also takes account on why I disliked the first part of Jojo, the MC and even some of the villain wanted this fair fights. Seriously why do people loves this ' fair fight like men' characters.. rather than this 'backstabber'?  I found that people who backstabs and uses trickery are much more likable than those who wanted a 'fair fight'. That's also why my favorite Jojo characters is Kars. |
YouApr 12, 2016 10:59 PM
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| It might be less the case now with the younger generations, but this could be a callback to Japan's history, there were several periods where "honor" (or some alteration of it) was a key ingredient of the culture or mentality. They use this element in a positive way because it can trigger an evocation of the fantasized country's past glory. Sorry, this is not well written. -_-" |
| Here's where the appeal comes from: |
Is there a sequel to this video asking for a friend |
Here you go, bud. Hope your friend enjoys. |
| Wow seriously, Kars is a huge fucking asshole. |
| I can appreciate someone who wants a fair fight as its an honorable thing to do. However, I also respect people who use trickery/underhanded tactics to win, as they use logic to determine their actions and use the best ways to achieve victory. If I have to choose between the two, I would chose the latter, but its not like I despise the former either. |
My Queens  |
Your video was the third part. |
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| Because if you don't have the pride to fight with honor, then you are nothing more than barbaric animal. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Its depend on situation for me. Sometimes they can be really dumb (especial if the opponent is well known for his trick), but for certain event (lancer vs saber in FZ for example) can be very admirable. |
EsperApr 13, 2016 12:16 AM
| This salad is salty favored |
MortalMelancholy said: Because if you don't have the pride to fight with honor, then you are nothing more than barbaric animal. Oh cmon, being an assassin is much more fun than being a gladiator XD kamisama751 said: Morality and respect for each other, also the leadership capability. So there's some people who prefer respecting others rather than using every way to achieve their goals? Okay then, but that's definitely not me, I'm a goal oriented person XD ModeratelyHuman said: Wow seriously, Kars is a huge fucking asshole. He uses every single possible way to become the most superior creature, what's wrong with it? |
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You said: MortalMelancholy said: Because if you don't have the pride to fight with honor, then you are nothing more than barbaric animal. Oh cmon, being an assassin is much more fun than being a gladiator XD Well, we're all entitled to our opinions. Assassins have to give up their humanity, or be tormented by relentless moral anguish. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Doesn't seem like that's actually a thing. Most of the times, I see people complaining about how boring Jonathan is because of his righteousness, while the trickster Joseph is liked much more. |
| 5 main aspects I base my ratings on: 1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it? 2. Is it better than Breaking Bad? 3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it? 4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL? 5. Is it actually good? Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant... |
| Even villains should have honor. Would you prefer someone cheating in a testbor one who do it fairly? Same here. |
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| lol FOR HONOR, FOR DIGNITY, FOR INTEGRITY, FOR CHINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! |
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| The best main characters don't play fair. They use trickery and underhanded methods to beat the antagonists. Why would any rational person risk their life, their friends lives, their families lives and sometimes even the world itself just to follow some arbitrary rules of fairness. It's even worse in cases where the villain doesn't play fair. But even if the villain does play fair, the MC should still use underhanded methods to win. The villain is usually treated as such because they're doing something objectively bad, even if they have "honor" the most important thing is stopping them. It's even more important if the MC isn't particularly strong. I prefer weak but tricky MC's to dumb ones with brute strength. Nagisa from Ass Class and Yamato from Majikoi are two examples of fantastic main characters who manage to help their friends and vanquish evil, despite their lack of physical strength. |
| I know right? Because watching two character playing hide and seek while waiting for the chance to stab the opponent back is the most entertaining thing to watch and oh oh wait I got another, two character using their superpower to crack the opponent testicles open, such underhanded and cheap trick would make an intense fight and be a masterpiece by default! |
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| I don't know about LOGH but in JoJo, it's the sheer ridiculousness of it all. They're so macho they won't settle for anything but a fair fight. JoJo later expands on it. When a rival refuses a fair fight, they get angry at him mostly because of that. It's a Warrior's Honor type of bullshit, which is ridiculous, entertaining and makes for great fights. JoJo vs. Wham is amazing. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| It shows that you see your opponent as a worthy adversary. Somewhat related but, if you don't bow to your opponent in the Souls games before fighting them, you are sub-human. |
| LOGH fo what?! Apart from General Schennkopp and Poplan, I don't recall having seen a 'manly' character. Reinhard may be considered manly in that he desired a fair fight against Yang but he knew when to surrender - which according to the trope isn't a manly trait at all. Low-IQ people want to see low-IQ characters fighting 'fairly' and hence foolishly. That's all about it. I can't even get a kick out of manliness even if it's meant to be a joke; if second-hand embarrassment if anything. |
| It's not like all JoJo fights have the opponents fighting fair and square (i.e. Kars, and later the battle with the Stands get more creative and with more dirty tricks for part of the combatants). Now on the actual subject, I guess it's a thing of Japan. They respect honor and deportivity very much, so that is reflected in their characters. |
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| I agree with you in the sense that I'm not overly fond of those exceedingly honorable protagonists. I think characters with honor can be brilliant, especially when properly characterized (looking at you F/Z), but on the whole it is not a character type I'm fond of. As to the reason behind it's prevalence, I would guess it has to do with the traditional values that permeated Japan for centuries. Honor was an essential aspect to their culture, forming the core of their civilization. The morals of a protagonist often extend far beyond "fighting fairly" as well, they're incredibly virtuous individuals in basically every respect imaginable. I do find it interesting however that a character such as Lelouch from Code Geass, a character that frequently acts in "immoral" manners can be the most popular and beloved character on this site. (I can't comment on his popularity in Japan though, so that's just an interesting side-note.) |
CamTheThiefJun 4, 2016 12:20 AM
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| in LOGH there were plenty of times were the alliance fought at a disadvantage, like the final battle betwen Yang an Reinhard, Yang had like 40 000 spaceships an Reinhard had like 100 000 ships, that wasnt fair at all, Buckock fought an died fighting with just the renmants of the allaince army |
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| I wish i would get around to watch LogH or finish JoJo... Kinda dont wanna at the same time lolololol |
You said: I found that people who backstabs and uses trickery are much more likable than those who wanted a 'fair fight'. That's also why my favorite Jojo characters is Kars. Are you a sociopath? I would have understood if you said more interesting, though I still think both archetypes can be boring or interesting depending on the execution and context, but likable just seems weird. Personally I wouldn't want backstabbing psychopaths as my friends and rather someone who values loyalty and honor. And from the characters point of view it's the difference between wanting to be the best or strongest in something (which is often the reason why they prefer a fair fight) or if they're just seeking some kind of short-term/materialistic goal that they want to achieve no matter what. It's stupid to expect someone who wants to be the best at something to cheat and not fight honorably. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| It would be harder for the audience to identify with a main character who is a doublecrossing, backstabbing asshole. :p |
plasma38 said: There is no honor during war and those who demand a honorful fight are brainwashed by societies stupid ideals of honorable warfare. Truth is that war is absolutely disgusting and that winning is the only thing that matters, ending this atrocity asap. Those who see that have the ability to think logically. did you like Oberstein then? he thinks the same about war |
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| Ehh those two aren't really good examples. LOGH because its not really 'manly' and Jojo because its too ridiculous to be taken seriously. A fair fight is something that rivals mainly want to test their strengths against each other, as it would be disrespectful to fight in any other way. I'll use DBZ as an example. When Vegeta let Cell go to his 3rd form because he wanted to fight him at full strength so he could truly see just how powerful he has become. |
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silversaint said: plasma38 said: There is no honor during war and those who demand a honorful fight are brainwashed by societies stupid ideals of honorable warfare. Truth is that war is absolutely disgusting and that winning is the only thing that matters, ending this atrocity asap. Those who see that have the ability to think logically. did you like Oberstein then? he thinks the same about war I like him more than Reinhard tbh Pullman said: You said: I found that people who backstabs and uses trickery are much more likable than those who wanted a 'fair fight'. That's also why my favorite Jojo characters is Kars. Are you a sociopath? I would have understood if you said more interesting, though I still think both archetypes can be boring or interesting depending on the execution and context, but likable just seems weird. Personally I wouldn't want backstabbing psychopaths as my friends and rather someone who values loyalty and honor. And from the characters point of view it's the difference between wanting to be the best or strongest in something (which is often the reason why they prefer a fair fight) or if they're just seeking some kind of short-term/materialistic goal that they want to achieve no matter what. It's stupid to expect someone who wants to be the best at something to cheat and not fight honorably. Hmm you're right at a certain point but I found that if you need to achieve a certain set of goals then you need to do literally everything to achieve it. I'm not putting it like being 'the best' at something but rather to survive and the survivor isn't the strongest but the fittest. |
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hydro said: The best main characters don't play fair. They use trickery and underhanded methods to beat the antagonists. Why would any rational person risk their life, their friends lives, their families lives and sometimes even the world itself just to follow some arbitrary rules of fairness. It's even worse in cases where the villain doesn't play fair. But even if the villain does play fair, the MC should still use underhanded methods to win. The villain is usually treated as such because they're doing something objectively bad, even if they have "honor" the most important thing is stopping them. It's even more important if the MC isn't particularly strong. I prefer weak but tricky MC's to dumb ones with brute strength. Nagisa from Ass Class and Yamato from Majikoi are two examples of fantastic main characters who manage to help their friends and vanquish evil, despite their lack of physical strength. ^I agree with this guy Praise be to our badass Hermit Crab lover |
You said: I like him more than Reinhard tbh Pullman said: Are you a sociopath? I would have understood if you said more interesting, though I still think both archetypes can be boring or interesting depending on the execution and context, but likable just seems weird. Personally I wouldn't want backstabbing psychopaths as my friends and rather someone who values loyalty and honor. And from the characters point of view it's the difference between wanting to be the best or strongest in something (which is often the reason why they prefer a fair fight) or if they're just seeking some kind of short-term/materialistic goal that they want to achieve no matter what. It's stupid to expect someone who wants to be the best at something to cheat and not fight honorably. Hmm you're right at a certain point but I found that if you need to achieve a certain set of goals then you need to do literally everything to achieve it. I'm not putting it like being 'the best' at something but rather to survive and the survivor isn't the strongest but the fittest. Yeah that's why I said it depends a lot on the context and execution. In a desperate life and death situation overly moral and prideful characters can get annoying and it's much more fun to watch someone whose drive to survive trumps his morality, or at least someone who finds a workable compromise. But in other contexts someone who's willing to use every dirty trick in the book can just be petty and predictable in it's own way and watching someone who's willing to take the path with more resistance but still make it work through his wits, charm and determination has much more appeal. Neither archetype on it's own is particularly more interesting than the other since without context and compromises they're just 2-dimension archetypes with not too complicated behavioural patterns. How you write them into a story is what makes them appealing, or not. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
plasma38 said: I usually prefere the more intelligent character who deserves to win, due to his planning/tactics or betrayal. There is no honor during war and those who demand a honorful fight are brainwashed by societies stupid ideals of honorable warfare. Truth is that war is absolutely disgusting and that winning is the only thing that matters, ending this atrocity asap. Those who see that have the ability to think logically. You might think that efficiency (in the form of general backstabbery and rulebreaking, as opposed to planning and strategy) is what matters, but remember - you're never the only person on the battlefield. 1) Will the soldiers be able to do their best when they are lead by a backstabbing asshole? He's sure to abandon them after the war is over, and go on to destroy everything their country stands for. 2) If they have been breaking the rules during the battle, what makes you think they will follow them when they enter the enemy's cities? I've heard that war rape is still a problem even now. 3) You might think war is hell, but for much of history, war was just the way things are. The soldiers (and often the generals) had no personal reasons to hate their enemy (who were pretty much the same kind of people), and after a battle is over, they could just go for a drink and a game of cards with the enemy. P.S. Modern "Asymmetric Warfare" is all about backstabbing, and it makes for the longest-lasting conflicts. Now on the personal level: 4) You can defeat your enemy in a dishonest manner, but this wouldn't prove you're stronger. Probably the other way around. Often, that matters, because other opponents will keep coming. 5) In the worlds where combat experience is a major part of personal power, a fair fight obviously gives more of it. You might backstab a couple of opponents, but soon enough the big bad will throw ones that are too powerful for you to handle, because you weren't level-grinding enough. 6) Same for people seeking intangible things like glory. 7) Dirty tricks are more of a one-time thing. You can't be using them indefinitely. Save them for those times when you truly need them. You said: Hmm you're right at a certain point but I found that if you need to achieve a certain set of goals then you need to do literally everything to achieve it. I'm not putting it like being 'the best' at something but rather to survive and the survivor isn't the strongest but the fittest. What's the fun in surviving? Can you really achieve world peace by tricking everybody, and breaking every rule in the book? Pullman said: Personally I wouldn't want backstabbing psychopaths as my friends and rather someone who values loyalty and honor. This. This is pretty much the main reason. |
| Good reason not to like show bro. Getting backstabbed or tricked is underwhelming. Like are you telling me it would have been cool for, **Lotgh spoiler dont click this shit** A true fight of equal terms has been respected for all of mankind. You are in the minority bro. |
| Brace yourself. Soon as LotGH 2017 comes out. The anime community is going to become so cancerous you will need to take cover and hide. |
| Well fair fights require both opponents give it their best to come out of an explosive clash of powers and personalities. I fail to see how that is NOT entertaining (unless done poorly). It may not be the most effective way, but if we go by effectiveness in a real life-like setting then most situations could be resolved with poison gas. "I'm too edgy for morals and will do anything to win" assassins CAN work if it's against random mooks or another assassin but if you wanna have a fight that's supposed to have any emotional weight to it then effective does not equal satisfying. |
| The circumstances need to be perfect for a fair fight, like a structured fighting tournament (e.g. DBZ). When lives are on the line, if you prioritize your own morals over the lives of innocent people then you lose your moral high ground. Of course, a lot of anime are set up so that these people can have their cake and eat it too. Their mistakes coming from their misplaced honor aren't severely punished, and they can get away with naivety and beat the villain eventually. |
Robiiii said: I wish i would get around to watch LogH or finish JoJo... Kinda dont wanna at the same time lolololol You sound like Plutia "No Histy, don't make me watch LOGH" |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| i hate this archetype, maybe that's why im drawn to lord mitsuhashi =) |
╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭ |
| So, I thought a bit about the titular question, and I see that the answer is already contained within. >What is the appeal of manly characters who wants a fair fights? They're manly, duh. |
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