tiro_finale said: 0h no, not that crap again.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yes, yes, yes, we know that there are some percent of Japanese users here on MAL. But do you seriously think that majority of Japanese anime fans really using MAL? I highly doubt that they even know about this site. Than again, why should we ignore the masses in favor of some not even vocal minority? And yes, there are some well-educated Western users om MAL that knows proper meaning of "shoujo-ai", but than again - it's just some G-d-damn minority, though very vocal this time. And they for sure already know the difference between "shoujo-ai" and "yuri", as well as the difference between Japanese and Western definitions of this terms. Who really will be confused is the majority of users that used to "shoujo-ai", when they suddenly discover that there is no "shoujo-ai" tag but only "yuri". Again, why should we change things only because a small fraction of MAL society are unhappy with said things? Hell, they can't fix damned BB-code, they can't finish that "English back to Japanese renaming" case, and now tags? Just because someone feelin' - like what, guilty? - with some oh-G-d-no-ambiguous tags? Gimme a break. |
 There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.  Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: tiro_finale said: 0h no, not that crap again.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yes, yes, yes, we know that there are some percent of Japanese users here on MAL. But do you seriously think that majority of Japanese anime fans really using MAL? I highly doubt that they even know about this site. Than again, why should we ignore the masses in favor of some not even vocal minority? And yes, there are some well-educated Western users om MAL that knows proper meaning of "shoujo-ai", but than again - it's just some G-d-damn minority, though very vocal this time. And they for sure already know the difference between "shoujo-ai" and "yuri", as well as the difference between Japanese and Western definitions of this terms. Who really will be confused is the majority of users that used to "shoujo-ai", when they suddenly discover that there is no "shoujo-ai" tag but only "yuri". Again, why should we change things only because a small fraction of MAL society are unhappy with said things? Hell, they can't fix damned BB-code, they can't finish that "English back to Japanese renaming" case, and now tags? Just because someone feelin' - like what, guilty? - with some oh-G-d-no-ambiguous tags? Gimme a break. Are you a jew? |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: Are you a jew? |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Shiratori99 said: Are you a jew? Cause you censor "g-d" lol |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
tiro_finale said: Don't take my quote out of context. I was responding to Symbv saying that the current shoujo ai tag is causing confusioin. I was saying that as our community is used to it, there's no confusion except for with people mostly from Japan. That actually changing the definition would be more confusing for the community than keeping it as English speakers who don't know the current definition in Japan but only our definition are in the majority by far.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. But the western fanbase sees shoujo ai as non explicit or whatever yuri relationship. They don't see them as the same thing, that's why we have those two different tags. |
IntroverTurtleFeb 5, 2014 11:50 AM
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Shiratori99 said: Cause you censor "g-d" lol |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: tiro_finale said: 0h no, not that crap again.How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yes, yes, yes, we know that there are some percent of Japanese users here on MAL. But do you seriously think that majority of Japanese anime fans really using MAL? I highly doubt that they even know about this site. Than again, why should we ignore the masses in favor of some not even vocal minority? And yes, there are some well-educated Western users om MAL that knows proper meaning of "shoujo-ai", but than again - it's just some G-d-damn minority, though very vocal this time. And they for sure already know the difference between "shoujo-ai" and "yuri", as well as the difference between Japanese and Western definitions of this terms. Who really will be confused is the majority of users that used to "shoujo-ai", when they suddenly discover that there is no "shoujo-ai" tag but only "yuri". Again, why should we change things only because a small fraction of MAL society are unhappy with said things? Hell, they can't fix damned BB-code, they can't finish that "English back to Japanese renaming" case, and now tags? Just because someone feelin' - like what, guilty? - with some oh-G-d-no-ambiguous tags? Gimme a break. With the '"English back to Japanese renaming" case' we're being kinda drifted away from the original topic. Yes, this is not the only problem on MAL, but if we searching for all the problems and their remedy here that'll end in a so big problem complex, which everybody will abandon, saying; "it's too big to handle, there's no helping it, leave it as it's now". This topic is about this problem, I think, not about 'repair all wrongly used things on MAL' (but please correct me if I'm wrong) Democracy is great, but what mayority says is not always perfect. Think about the medieval, when mayority thought that the Earth is flat. That, that mayority thinks it's correct, not makes it correct. Similar case with the meaning of this word. I might add this to what Tiro_finale said, but it might so obvious not even need to mention; Add some big announcement that it'll being removed/changed to Yuri - due to it's incorrect use - so even those who wasn't aware this will know, and they will not confused (though I don't see why they would be confused to begin with) |
kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: Really? Are you sure? I somehow doubt it. Don't know why. Moreover, we have horrific mixed Japanese-English titles. And mind it - it's not some G-d-forgotten titles that no-one watched, that's some of the oldest major hits, often known even to non-anime fans.MAL does that little by little in fact Here's the topic where they were changing titles. |
SerhiykoFeb 5, 2014 12:12 PM
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kitsune0 said: Shiratori99 said: Cause you censor "g-d" lol I see XD I've only seen jews doing that, that's why I asked. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Sora_92 said: I might add this to what Tiro_finale said, but it might so obvious not even need to mention; Add some big announcement that it'll being removed/changed to Yuri - due to it's incorrect use - so even those who wasn't aware this will know, and they will not confused (though I don't see why they would be confused to begin with) But yuri is hentai |
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tiro_finale said: Exaccus said: The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yuri tends to imply sex or borderline sex occurring at some point in series. Shoujo-ai is the lovey dovey feels without things ending up in the bedroom. So I stand by what I said earlier that changing the tags is only going to cause confusion. Best to leave things as they are. |
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Serhiyko said: Sora_92 said: I might add this to what Tiro_finale said, but it might so obvious not even need to mention; Add some big announcement that it'll being removed/changed to Yuri - due to it's incorrect use - so even those who wasn't aware this will know, and they will not confused (though I don't see why they would be confused to begin with) But yuri is hentai Exaccus said: tiro_finale said: Exaccus said: The term shoujo-ai is well understood in the anime community to basically be a lighter, milder version of yuri. I say leave things as they are. Changing the tags is only going to cause mass confusion and frustration. How so? It's not like there are little girl pedophilia animes on mal, the sollution in my opinion is simply to get rid of the shoujo-ai tag. Plain and simple, japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. Yuri tends to imply sex or borderline sex occurring at some point in series. Shoujo-ai is the lovey dovey feels without things ending up in the bedroom. So I stand by what I said earlier that changing the tags is only going to cause confusion. Best to leave things as they are. Not really I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. MAL's definition for Yuri is yuri with hentai So if the problem is dicerning between just Yuri and Yuri+Hentai(Mal's yuri) why not just add the Hentai tag to yuri shows that contain hentai? Sounds much more intelligent, and makes much more sense. IntroverTurtle said: I know, I understood what you said, I believe you misunderstood me.I was saying that as our community is used to it, there's no confusion except for with people mostly from Japan. That actually changing the definition would be more confusing for the community than keeping it as English speakers who don't know the current definition in Japan I am saying that I don't see how removing the shoujo-ai would cause any confusion to western fans. In my perspective the shoujo-ai wouldn't be used anywhere else so they wouldn't stumble upon them and confuse it for yuri. IntroverTurtle said: As I said in this same post, I don't really see anywhere else where Yuri = Yuri + Hentai. Which is Mal's definition http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genreBut the western fanbase sees shoujo ai as non explicit or whatever yuri relationship. They don't see them as the same thing, that's why we have those two different tags. I'm not sure if that's how it's been in the past, but Yuri doesn't really necessarily implies hentai. And again, if they problem is dicerning Yuri and Yuri with Hentai, it makes much more sense to apply the Hentai tag. The definition that Yuri necessarily implies Hentai seems to be anothed outdated thing, though unlike shoujo-ai, I rarely see people asserting yuri wrong, i.e Hentai like mal does. |
MomonoFeb 5, 2014 1:02 PM
tiro_finale said: Oh ok, my bad.I know, I understood what you said, I believe you misunderstood me. I am saying that I don't see how removing the shoujo-ai would cause any confusion to western fans. In my perspective the shoujo-ai wouldn't be used anywhere else so they wouldn't stumble upon them and confuse it for yuri. Well then it would cause confusion for MAL members, not neccasarily all western fans as I don't have stats of that, I was caught up in Symbv's talk about western fans. And I believe it is used elsewhere, I believe someone has posted a link below me. tiro_finale said: Well that's the thing, I'm talking mostly about MAL members. It's been accepted here(as you've seen we haven't had any threads or really discussions about this until now) that yuri is yuri + hentai. I'm not saying that I have stats that show an online definition elsewhere that all western fans use, but from what I've seen online most people use it that way.IntroverTurtle said: As I said in this same post, I don't really see anywhere else where Yuri = Yuri + Hentai. Which is Mal's definition http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genreBut the western fanbase sees shoujo ai as non explicit or whatever yuri relationship. They don't see them as the same thing, that's why we have those two different tags. I'm not sure if that's how it's been in the past, but Yuri doesn't really necessarily implies hentai. And again, if they problem is dicerning Yuri and Yuri with Hentai, it makes much more sense to apply the Hentai tag. The definition that Yuri necessarily implies Hentai seems to be anothed outdated thing, though unlike shoujo-ai, I rarely see people asserting yuri wrong, i.e Hentai like mal does. Though I believe the yuri tag is for yuri relationships with sex, not always hentai. Because not all sex in anime is hentai, only when it's explicit. Now that you think about it, it is a weirdly thought of tag. There's no tag seperating heterosexual romance anime to heterosexual romance anime that has non explicit sex. It's either it's hentai or it's not. |
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Serhiyko said: Because that's where mal copied it of: http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genre Scroll down and you can see it.tiro_finale said: Not really I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. AniDB uses yuri in the same sense AniDB tags might be the source of mal's misuse but just because somewhere else is also wrong doesn't mean we have to be as well. |
IntroverTurtle said: Well that's the thing, I'm talking mostly about MAL members. It's been accepted here(as you've seen we haven't had any threads or really discussions about this until now) that yuri is yuri + hentai. I'm not saying that I have stats that show an online definition elsewhere that all western fans use, but from what I've seen online most people use it that way. I'm not sure where have you been seeing it but the majority of western manga-reader sites or scanlators don't use it that way. (Like mangafox, dysnaty-reader and others). Also, going back to Japan, yuri doesn't imply sexual content either, explicit or not. The difference is that unlike shoujo-ai I rarely see people asserting yuri as necessary sexual content outside of mal. Of course I might be wrong on weather the majority uses it correctly or not though, but the point I'm trying to make is that fixing the issue here would not cause confusion as people are stating. The only problem I might see arising is someone searching the database using the no-long existent shoujo-ai tag, or thinking shows tagged as Yuri have sexual content (which I doubt since if it has it would be likely rated 17+). And there's proof http://myanimelist.net/anime/20047/Sakura_Trick = Even now some entries are addering to the correct term and nobody is confused about it. |
tiro_finale said: As I said in this same post, I don't really see anywhere else where Yuri = Yuri + Hentai. Which is Mal's definition http://myanimelist.net/info.php?go=genre I'm not sure if that's how it's been in the past, but Yuri doesn't really necessarily implies hentai. And again, if they problem is dicerning Yuri and Yuri with Hentai, it makes much more sense to apply the Hentai tag. Unfortunately, M*nga Fox uses it in the same wrong way, as MAL does. That might cause some confusion here. Also, I seen many Animes/Mangas tagged with both tags, which is, with all this wrong and not wrong descritiptions just looks weird. Like if MAL realy want to isolate tamer ones from not tamer ones, then what is the meaning of both used on a same Anime/Manga? Also, if Yuri would mean girl x girl hentai by itself, while 'soujo-ai' would mean girl x girl, then 'shoujo-ai' + hentai would be used for describing that, instead of using a third tag. So with this we might return to the point that it's no longer isolated, and instead the wrong 'shoujo-ai', we should use Yuri, and add hentai tag as well, in cases of Yuri hentai, but not otherwise. Plus, if you think about titles, like Yuru Yuri, that is not hentai. In short, I agree with Tiro_finale |
tiro_finale said: IntroverTurtle said: Well that's the thing, I'm talking mostly about MAL members. It's been accepted here(as you've seen we haven't had any threads or really discussions about this until now) that yuri is yuri + hentai. I'm not saying that I have stats that show an online definition elsewhere that all western fans use, but from what I've seen online most people use it that way. I'm not sure where have you been seeing it but the majority of western manga-reader sites or scanlators don't use it that way. (Like mangafox, dysnaty-reader and others). Also, going back to Japan, yuri doesn't imply sexual content either, explicit or not. The difference is that unlike shoujo-ai I rarely see people asserting yuri as necessary sexual content outside of mal. Of course I might be wrong on weather the majority uses it correctly or not though, but the point I'm trying to make is that fixing the issue here would not cause confusion as people are stating. The only problem I might see arising is someone searching the database using the no-long existent shoujo-ai tag, or thinking shows tagged as Yuri have sexual content (which I doubt since if it has it would be likely rated 17+). And there's proof http://myanimelist.net/anime/20047/Sakura_Trick = Even now some entries are addering to the correct term and nobody is confused about it. I already know that yuri doesn't imply sexual content in Japan. This is about our community. And do you see people talking about the different genres often? Because while I say it's accepted here, I have rarely heard anyone talking about their definitions. Well you're talking about the western fanbase and stuff. But I'm talking about this site. If this site uses it that way and the users are used to that, wouldn't changing it bring at least a little bit of confusion? Keep in mind I'm not totally against this suggestion. The genres do need to be redone, especially their explanations like you linked, some were missing definitions, others had weird too simple ones, etc. Well people look at the tags more than they do the ratings. They might not watch it thinking it is a hentai just because they noticed the tag. It would also be a good suggestion for the rating on an anime's page to specify why it got that rating. That's one anime that is almost brand new(only been about a month since it's started airing). It sometimes takes people months after an anime stops airing before they point out a wrong tag or start asking questions. How many others are there? I think what would really settle this is to see whether this site's members actually follows this site's definition or if they know about the definitions at all. |
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Sora_92 said: Unfortunately, M*nga Fox uses it in the same wrong way, as MAL does. That might cause some confusion here. The term for Yuri doesn't seem to be wrong there though: Mangafox: Yuri: Girls love, involves intimate relationship between women. But yeah they seem to go wrong in using Shoujo-Ai, the tagging there is even more odd than here because based on their definition, they are basically the same thing, MAL tries to do some (innacurate) differentiation. Sora_92 said: And that doesn't even look like too much of a hassle, I don't really get why some people are so strong against it.Also, if Yuri would mean girl x girl hentai by itself, while 'soujo-ai' would mean girl x girl, then 'shoujo-ai' + hentai would be used for describing that, instead of using a third tag. So with this we might return to the point that it's no longer isolated, and instead the wrong 'shoujo-ai', we should use Yuri, and add hentai tag as well, in cases of Yuri hentai, but not otherwise. IntroverTurtle said: Well ok, but I really never noticed that before, I'm not old in this site but from the fanbases or communities more deeply related to the tag that I observated, there isn't really this confusion based on the connotation, I suppose the members who would be confused about it are rather the ones who aren't very familiar with the content of the terms. And even then, I don't think it would be much of a hassle to adapt to the correct terms.Well you're talking about the western fanbase and stuff. But I'm talking about this site. If this site uses it that way and the users are used to that, wouldn't changing it bring at least a little bit of confusion? IntroverTurtle said: Fair enough I guess, but even if they ignore the rating what are the chances someone will accidentaly avoid an anime thinking it might be hentai? There are other ways they could noticed it isn't, aren't there?Well people look at the tags more than they do the ratings. They might not watch it thinking it is a hentai just because they noticed the tag. It would also be a good suggestion for the rating on an anime's page to specify why it got that rating. IntroverTurtle said: Does this mean there is a chance someone might eventually switch the tag for the soujo-ai one?That's one anime that is almost brand new(only been about a month since it's started airing). It sometimes takes people months after an anime stops airing before they point out a wrong tag or start asking questions. How many others are there? Well I do hope that nobody gets confused at the term from Sakura Trick, a lot of people who might watch it are already fond of the definitions and that's why I don't think there would be much confusion. Even if there were a few, I believe people adapting to the definition wouldn't be a problem? |
MomonoFeb 5, 2014 2:01 PM
tiro_finale said: Than you've been on teh internets not so long. 0r not so deep. 0n the side note: the majority of Russian anime fans (that, of course, including MAL users) indeed understand "shoujo-ai" and "yuri" exactly like "lesbian romance" and "lesbian sex" respectively. And if you thinkin' about Japanese minority here, then what about Russian minority here? It's quite bigger than Japanese.I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: 0n the side note: the majority of Russian anime fans (that, of course, including MAL users) indeed understand "shoujo-ai" and "yuri" exactly like "lesbian romance" and "lesbian sex" respectively. And if you thinkin' about Japanese minority here, then what about Russian minority here? It's quite bigger than Japanese. I don't think anybody said it's for the Japanese minority, or for any minority, agains any mayority. It's to clear a misunderstanding, and stop using a wrong tag. Yes, MAL is not Japanese, but about Japanese Anime and Manga - not about English, or Russian, (not attacking), or any other, so in a site about Japanese Manga and Anime, it's - I think - would be correct to use a tag as Japanese uses it. (Correct me if I'm wrong) |
kitsune0 said: Sora_92 said: You think wrong.I don't think anybody said it's for the Japanese minority, or for any minority Well... maybe... though I don't think those post are about what Japanese minority would like. Ejc said: and some have expressed their astonishment at the misuse of the term "shoujo-ai". tiro_finale said: japanese fans won't be confused because there isn't more little girl pedophilia tag, and western fans won't be confused either because they know what Yuri is. Nobody loses. I think these are about it's wrong according to them too, and with the remove of the tag, no one - neither Japanese or anybody else - 'll lose. (but again correct me if I'm wrong, or misunderstood something) Also, may I have a question? Why are you so agains it? Not attacking, but I'm curious. |
jojovonjo said: Maybe it would be beneficial if MAL changed the definitions as wellI would Say that Sakura Trick has an implied sexual relationship between two female characters. They should reword the definition to say "implies sexual relationship," but I like having both tags. And that is all I will say on this subject. Shoujo-ai (Or whatever it may be changed to) to just imply romance or "strong friendship", anything with bait and switch or romantic two girl friendship would get this. (Maria-sama, Yuru Yuri for example) Then have Yuri mean an actual romantic relationship. (Girl Friends, Octave for example) |
Mogu-samaFeb 5, 2014 8:09 PM
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tiro_finale said: I've rarely never ever seen Yuri being used like that outside of mal, and I'm a yuri-faggot, mind you. I've never seen it either. As far as I'm concerned, yuri means the same thing to western fans as it does to Japanese fans, which is any romantic interactions between girls. |
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| The point is that shoujo-ai is obsolete and outdated. It doesn't matter how many westerners are ignorant of its proper meaning, or continues to defend the misuse of shoujo-ai. It must be corrected if MAL is to be consistent and accurate with its use of genres. Simple as that. kitsune0, you continue to go back to the same argument (ohh, the Japanese-born users on MAL are a minority) every single time. It has no basis here, as we are arguing over the inaccuracy of genres being applied to Anime DB entries. Again, it is as simple as that. You can look in the Sakura Trick threads, and see that the majority of watchers know what yuri is. It's only the small few who are ignorant, as you can see in that thread about why Sakura Trick isn't labelled as shoujo-ai. This would benefit yuri fans, as just how much of the anime community in the West actually watch Yuri (and I mean the correct blanket definition of female to female relations)? I will reiterate again, that people who are for the removal of shoujo-ai from the DB just want consistency and accuracy for the DB here. I don't think people care if other western fans continue to feign ignorance or are ignorant and use shoujo-ai in everyday language. DB consistency and accuracy is what matters here on MAL. This is a step in the right direction, and could facilitate further action, such as removing misused demographics (shounen, shoujo, seinen and josei) from the Anime DB entries. Manga DB entries are fine with using demographics, but not light novels. |
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Sora_92 said: Ah, just as I think. You didn't read the thread, do you? Well, it's on the previous page... as well as on the 5th... and 4th.Also, may I have a question? Why are you so agains it? Not attacking, but I'm curious. Ejc said: Stop lying. 0r you also didn't read the thread?kitsune0, you continue to go back to the same argument (ohh, the Japanese-born users on MAL are a minority) every single time. 0h, you funny you. You're pointin' to threads where yuri fans gathered, sayin' "look, they knew". Sure they knew. Fans know their basics. So, in short, it's all about The Truth, and no fucks given to consistency? What are MAL, court or fan site, from fans to fans? Hell, MAL is not even the official site, it's not like it's bound to follow official rules. Well, anyway, I highly doubt that this will be put in action soon. Just you look at the BB-codes, fer example. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Sora_92 said: Ah, just as I think. You didn't read the thread, do you? Well, it's on the previous page... as well as on the 5th... and 4th.Also, may I have a question? Why are you so agains it? Not attacking, but I'm curious. I did read the thread, I think I reacted to them, but if not I'll react to them now... 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Hope not hurt you. But through all these post, I still not understand Why you're so agains it? You say things, like "But Japanese also using some words incorrectly" That's might true, but that not makes this 'shoujo-ai' correct. "there are a lot of problems on MAL, like BBCode, or Half-Japanese-Hal-English titles, and so", but we not here for these problems now, create a new topic about them, if you would like. with those, we will just drifted away from the original problem, we are here to solve. The fact that there other problems too, not necesarily makes this one smaller, I would say, it's one step toward repairing many problems in MAL, no human is able to solve all with a single step, but might able to solve step-by-step - also not one human, but more, a community. also, you keep talking abot your Russian language; I must say, it seems that you realy love your native language, which is a wonderfull thing (no sarcasm, realy, I think it's a great thing) - Russian must be a realy beautiful language - especially to you - if you cherish it soo much, (I don't speak it at all, so I don't know it). But the tags on MAL are not Russian, so how this or that is called in Russian not realy does anything with MAL's tags. So I don't realy understand your problem; yes, it will not repair MAL's all problems, but it will not hurt anybody either, especially if MAL announces it realy loud, so no one will be confused why did 'shoujo-ai' tag disappeared/replaced with Yuri tag. it also does nothing with anybody's native languege. and anybody who still want to use it, still can use it on their own Manga/Anime list's tags. will not confuse those, who are searching for tamer Yuri Anime/Manga, if the other tags - for example 'hentai' tag's existance or lack beside the Yuri tag - also used as they should. So I might realy silly, but I realy don't understand why you're so agains it Also, something I don't understand about this whole thread; the thread is about the remove of the 'shoujo-ai' tag. Anybody who is here must be a Yuri fan (girl x girl), otherwise would not care about that tag to begin with. I would think Yuri fans are not conservative peoples. I don't understand why these peoples are so conservatively protecting a tag - might had that meaning a decade earlyer what they use for, but no longer means that - what is old, and no longer should be used, because it's now meaning something else, realy not what they think it's mean. I, or anybody else, who would like to get rid of this tag, we might can be like Galileo Galilei, we can backtrack, and leave others loving their Flat Earth, with everithying circulate around it, but it doesn't change the fact - It doesn't change, that 'shoujo-ai' means 'pedophilia', hence, it should't be used for describing tamer Yuri (girl x girl). "And yet it moves." Let me reaffirm I didn't wanted to hurt or attack anybody, if I did, Gomenasai. |
| Wow, you really did quite a work here. Kudos fer that. Well, you missed one little point here. Someone already pointed to this: why change the system with two tags (SA & Y) to system with three tags (Y & Y+H)? Just as I say - convenience: kitsune0 said: Yes, it's kinda lame borrowing, but it makes the language richer. Like, for example: in English you use "mail" only for paper mail (well, usually), and using "e-mail" for Net messages. Now, welcome to Russia, where we use "meil" as you use "e-mail", while still usin' our own "pismo" for paper mail. Also, there is one thing that botherin' me: as I remember, in Japan actually "yuri" is anime/manga-only term, it's not used in real life to describe lesbians, to the point when only a few of RL Japan lesbians are aware of the existence of the term. As for pedophilia, as I remember, in real life Japanese using term "lolicon", and that's all. Also, nice touch with that Galileo thing, really great. Well, indeed you can count me just as some old-fashioned hard-head who just can't let it go new way. And, wow - you are a really nice person, respect. Keep it cool. P.S. Personally, I just plain hate when people tag shows like "Maria-sama" as yuri. What the Hell? There is no yuri. It's all in the subtext, and that's all to a personal point of view. If somebody seen it not as friendship but love - it's their own psychological problems point of view. Yes, there was the whole one real lesbian pair, but that's been before the show timeline, we've seen it only in one flashback. Yuri? That's "Strawberry Panic". "Candy*Boy"? Are you fuckin' kiddin' me? They're sisters. Point is that there are a whole Hell of anime and manga that's constantly bein' labeled as "yuri" while actually there is no such thing except in the eyes of some viewers/readers. The amount of [actual] yuri titles is not that big. That's like, what the fuck, let's tag all titles with bromance as "yaoi" - "Gurren-Lagann", for example. What? There's definitely very strong bond between little Simon and big "aniki" Kamina. C'mon, it's obvious! Um, sorry. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
Sora_92 said: I don't understand why these peoples are so conservatively protecting a tag - might had that meaning a decade earlyer what they use for, but no longer means that - what is old, and no longer should be used, because it's now meaning something else, realy not what they think it's mean. It still means that, for those who use it that way. And the fact that the meaning of the tag changed where it originated from doesn't matter for us, because we already use it with another meaning. kitsune0 said: P.S. Personally, I just plain hate when people tag shows like "Maria-sama" as yuri. What the Hell? There is no yuri. It's all in the subtext, and that's all to a personal point of view. If somebody seen it not as friendship but love - it's their own psychological problems point of view. Yes, there was the whole one real lesbian pair, but that's been before the show timeline, we've seen it only in one flashback. Yuri? That's "Strawberry Panic". "Candy*Boy"? Are you fuckin' kiddin' me? They're sisters. Point is that there are a whole Hell of anime and manga that's constantly bein' labeled as "yuri" while actually there is no such thing except in the eyes of some viewers/readers. The amount of [actual] yuri titles is not that big. AniDB has "yuri subtext" tag, they label some of the "shoujo-ai" shows with it (e.g. "Maria-sama" and "Candy Boy") |
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Serhiyko said: That's it!AniDB has "yuri subtext" tag, they label some of the "shoujo-ai" shows with it (e.g. "Maria-sama" and "Candy Boy") 0K, I have nothin' against replacin' "shoujo-ai" with "yuri subtext". That's convenient and makes things solid, if we talkin' about consistency and communicatin' with others besides MAL. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: I am completely with this, I really want this kind of clear definition on the DB.Serhiyko said: That's it!AniDB has "yuri subtext" tag, they label some of the "shoujo-ai" shows with it (e.g. "Maria-sama" and "Candy Boy") 0K, I have nothin' against replacin' "shoujo-ai" with "yuri subtext". That's convenient and makes things solid, if we talkin' about consistency and communicatin' with others besides MAL. |
Mogu-samaFeb 6, 2014 8:29 AM
| Want to talk? Club! "Would you like an anti-psychotic?" *Bonus points if you leave a comment about the meaning of my signature.* |
kitsune0 said: Well, you missed one little point here. Someone already pointed to this: why change the system with two tags (SA & Y) to system with three tags (Y & Y+H)? Just as I say - convenience: kitsune0 said: Yes, it's kinda lame borrowing, but it makes the language richer. Like, for example: in English you use "mail" only for paper mail (well, usually), and using "e-mail" for Net messages. Now, welcome to Russia, where we use "meil" as you use "e-mail", while still usin' our own "pismo" for paper mail. Actually the current sistem has 'shoujo-ai', Yuri, and hentai tags - that's 3. And what I mentioned earlier, often more than one is used in a single Anime/Manga. It's can be more confusing, because if we has one tag to describe it's girl x girl, and we has hentai tag to describe if it's +18, we don't need a 3rd tag to describe if it's more tame or not, as it's alredy describet by the existence or lack of hentai tag. so, we have 3 tags now, and one, not only wrong, but actually not even needed. kitsune0 said: P.S. Personally, I just plain hate when people tag shows like "Maria-sama" as yuri. What the Hell? There is no yuri. It's all in the subtext, and that's all to a personal point of view. If somebody seen it not as friendship but love - it's their own psychological problems point of view. Yes, there was the whole one real lesbian pair, but that's been before the show timeline, we've seen it only in one flashback. Yuri? That's "Strawberry Panic". "Candy*Boy"? Are you fuckin' kiddin' me? They're sisters. Point is that there are a whole Hell of anime and manga that's constantly bein' labeled as "yuri" while actually there is no such thing except in the eyes of some viewers/readers. The amount of [actual] yuri titles is not that big. You have a point here, there are a lot of Anime/Manga, that are pretty Yuri Goggle friendly, but not everybody would say, it's Yuri. Like, Kiniro Mosaic, Yuyushiki, Hidamari Sketch, Tetsunagi Kooni, Non Non Biyori, ect. I personally would say they're Yuri or has Implied Yuri, or Yuri Subtext. But let me see, for example the realy tame, but obviously Yuri Ameiro Kouckakan Kandan, got 'shoujo-ai' tag on MAL, one of my favorite Mangas, and I personally wouldn't like the precious Teahouse tagged with 'pedophilia'. Or Fu-Fu (or Wife and Wife) also tagged 'shoujo-ai', it's realy tame, but they are actually a Married Yuri Couple, again I wouldn't like it tagged with 'pedophilia'. By the way, that tag also lost it's use with this, if you tag a might some little platonic girl x girl love, and a Married Yuri Couple with the same tag. Mogu-sama said: kitsune0 said: I am completely with this, I really want this kind of clear definition on a the DB.Serhiyko said: That's it!AniDB has "yuri subtext" tag, they label some of the "shoujo-ai" shows with it (e.g. "Maria-sama" and "Candy Boy") 0K, I have nothin' against replacin' "shoujo-ai" with "yuri subtext". That's convenient and makes things solid, if we talkin' about consistency and communicatin' with others besides MAL. Yes, that seems like a might not bad idea, although not yet perfect, because we should replace it with Yuri in cases like Fu-Fu for example, as it's obviously not just subtext. two note thoug; with this, we would return to 3 tags instead of 2. And it would change the sistem deeply around it's roots, because a lot of Anime/Manga would get 'Yuri subtext' tag, what currently not have any Yuri related tag. And it's kinda hard to decide where 'subtext' start and ends. |
Sora_92 said: I see your point about having three tags and that it would be cleaner to drop the shoujo-ai (or whatever it's changed to) entirely. It's more of a compromise between staying the same and losing it entirely.Yes, that seems like a might not bad idea, although not yet perfect, because we should replace it with Yuri in cases like Fu-Fu for example, as it's obviously not just subtext. two note thoug; with this, we would return to 3 tags instead of 2. And it would change the sistem deeply around it's roots, because a lot of Anime/Manga would get 'Yuri subtext' tag, what currently not have any Yuri related tag. And it's kinda hard to decide where 'subtext' start and ends. We can take a page from TV Tropes with the distinction: "Thus, it is not uncommon to find teenage girl-girl relationships in Japanese Media, and they should not be included in this trope unless they explicitly describe themselves as lesbians, or engage in physical intimacy (at least kissing)." http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchoolgirlLesbians In something like Fu-fu, they describe/show themselves as lesbians within the first few pages. Maria-sama never goes anywhere near this. |
| Want to talk? Club! "Would you like an anti-psychotic?" *Bonus points if you leave a comment about the meaning of my signature.* |
Sora_92 said: No, we're talkin' not about amount of tags in database, but about amount of tags in entries and amount of work needed. See: if we just replacin' "shoujo-ai" with, let's say, "yuri subtext", it's all easy and can be done automatically.Actually the current sistem has 'shoujo-ai', Yuri, and hentai tags - that's 3. And what I mentioned earlier, often more than one is used in a single Anime/Manga. It's can be more confusing, because if we has one tag to describe it's girl x girl, and we has hentai tag to describe if it's +18, we don't need a 3rd tag to describe if it's more tame or not, as it's alredy describet by the existence or lack of hentai tag. so, we have 3 tags now, and one, not only wrong, but actually not even needed. Sora_92 said: Wait, do you understand what "subtext" stands for? It's for situations where you can't say exactly what's going on: is there love or friendship? And it's kinda simple to say where subtext and where is factual relationships:By the way, that tag also lost it's use with this, if you tag a might some little platonic girl x girl love, and a Married Yuri Couple with the same tag. Yes, that seems like a might not bad idea, although not yet perfect, because we should replace it with Yuri in cases like Fu-Fu for example, as it's obviously not just subtext. two note thoug; with this, we would return to 3 tags instead of 2. And it would change the sistem deeply around it's roots, because a lot of Anime/Manga would get 'Yuri subtext' tag, what currently not have any Yuri related tag. And it's kinda hard to decide where 'subtext' start and ends. 0) Is there any official relationships? Besides family (sisters, cousins, stepsisters)? Does they stated (by themselves, narrator or people around) as pair? 1) Does they kissed? Not accidentally, not by mistake, not in any form of ritual, formal or social interaction, not in stage play, not as a joke, but as revealing their feelings? 2) Is there physical interaction? Hugging, caressing, groping? Again, not as a joke, play, family interaction, etc., but as a sign of personal feelings? 3) Is there any confession? Again, not in the form of social gratitude, joke, etc., but as a romantic one? If at least one of answers is "yes" - it's not subtext. Note: there is no need in mutual feelings, it can be one-sided. As for the whole title: 0) Is there at least one officially recognized pair? 1) Does lesbian relationships play a major role in plot? 2) Does story centering around said pair, leaving other characters/het pairs behind? If there is other "yes" that for the 0 p., it's "yuri", otherwise it's "yuri subtext", I'd say. Mind it: it all in the present time, not past. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
kitsune0 said: Serhiyko said: That's it!AniDB has "yuri subtext" tag, they label some of the "shoujo-ai" shows with it (e.g. "Maria-sama" and "Candy Boy") 0K, I have nothin' against replacin' "shoujo-ai" with "yuri subtext". That's convenient and makes things solid, if we talkin' about consistency and communicatin' with others besides MAL. Erm, I mean they use both "shoujo-ai" category and "yuri subtext" tag at the same time (for the same show sometimes, like the two examples I named earlier). Tags, unlike categories, can be voted by users there, which determines its weight. Categories have weight, too, but it's determined by the one who assigns that category to the show (but you can create change request if you think that the weight (or even category itself) is wrong) |
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| "Yuri subtext," lol. No. If that suggestion doesn't make clear what's already wrong with the shoujo-ai tag, then I don't know what will. The problem of deciding what is or isn't yuri extends to all genres. Yuri isn't unique, that's the limitation of genres. If we're going to have a yuri subtext tag, we should also add sports subtext—the main character went to the gym!!! |
JoshFeb 6, 2014 9:00 AM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Serhiyko said: Well, we're goin' to be The Rightest here, sure? So, we just use that "yuri subtext" thingy instead of cursed "shoujo-ai", and everyone will be happy and oh so right. +)Erm, I mean they use both "shoujo-ai" category and "yuri subtext" tag at the same time (for the same show sometimes, like the two examples I named earlier). brrr said: Are you fraggin' kiddin'? There is no problem, read the thread, it's all on this page.Having a yuri subtext tag is the worst idea ever. The problem of deciding what is or isn't yuri extends to all genres. That's the limitation of genres. If we're going to have a yuri subtext tag, we should also add mecha subtext, ecchi subtext, sports subtext (the main character went to the gym!!!), etc. 0h, wait, I get it. You're really just kiddin'. Well, ha. Ha-ha. That was funny. Thank you for lightenin' atmosphere here. |
kitsune0Feb 6, 2014 8:58 AM
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
brrr said: Having a yuri subtext tag is the worst idea ever. I agree |
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kitsune0 said: No, I'm not kidding. Please explain to me why yuri is a uniquely complex genre, such that it deserves to have its own subtext tag. Can you imagine if there was a yaoi subtext tag? MAL's Bro Coalition would be petitioning to add the tag to every anime with too many men in it.Are you fraggin' kiddin'? There is no problem |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
| You're either very fat green troll or know English much worse than me. And I'm pretty sure it's former. As for the latter: just as I say, read the thread. I give the definition of subtext right on this page. With it, there would be no questions why other genres can't have a "subtext". Well, except your oh so precious "yaoi". Yes, you can petition the Hell out of it, though I somehow doubt that it'll be successful - fujoshis are noting but vocal minority here. Though, yes, very vocal. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
| The point brrrrrr is trying to make is that if Yuri get a subtext tag then other genres would need to get it either to be fair. But what brrrr didn't realize is that the actual suggestion is basically renaming shoujo-ai to yuri subtext: The way it is now there is already a yuri-subtext tag, according to the thread discussion. (I think you should read the thread, your post is replying to only a small portion which without the rest of the thread seems a perfectly right post) I'm also fine with the idea of renaming shoujo-ai to yuri subtext, and fixing the yuri tag. Mal's definition for yuri is "yuri with implied hentai". To sum it up the current state of the discussion suggests to fix the Yuri tag and rename shoujo-ai to yuri subtext from what I gathered by giving a quick look at the discussion. This or we can just remove the yuri subtext tag (current shoujo-ai tag) and let subtext hidden in the entries? |
tiro_finale said: -sigh-The point brrrrrr is trying to make is that if Yuri get a subtext tag then other genres would need to get it either to be fair. Listen. There is no such things as "subtext" in other genres (except yaoi, yes). And can't be. Subtext is when things uncertain. How the Hell things can be uncertain with sport? 0r mecha? There either is sport (mecha, etc) or not. It's like with games. Can you imagine such definition as "FPS subtext"? 0r, may be, "strategy subtext"? Sounds pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Subtext possible only in relationships. Period. |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Persona anime are good. Deal with it. |
| Problem is with the name 'Yuri Subtext' that it's too wide, and can cause confusion, where are it's borders, + Brrr - aside readig the whole thread or not - pointed out, that then, yaoi fans would like a yaoi subtext tag... he's right with this. thing is; 'Subtext Yuri' ≠ tamer Yuri. that's why the name is not good. example; Tetsunagi Kooni is subtext Yuri, Ameiro Kouchakan Kandan is tamer Yuri. side note: please do not attack anybody. aside if somebody did read the whole thread or not, let's assume no one is here for trolling, and I don't see what would make Brrr a fujoshi. Also, we, Yuri fans have no right, I think, to say anything bad about yaoi fans, that's just another path, not wrong path. (note: I don't like yaoi) + (but correct me if I'm wrong) fujoshi are girls, who like both yaoi, and Yuri. 2.+, we Yuri fans are probably just as small minority in MAL as they're. |
kitsune0 said: tiro_finale said: -sigh-The point brrrrrr is trying to make is that if Yuri get a subtext tag then other genres would need to get it either to be fair. Listen. There is no such things as "subtext" in other genres (except yaoi, yes). And can't be. Subtext is when things uncertain. How the Hell things can be uncertain with sport? 0r mecha? There either is sport (mecha, etc) or not. It's like with games. Can you imagine such definition as "FPS subtext"? 0r, may be, "strategy subtext"? Sounds pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Subtext possible only in relationships. Period. Yes, yes, the rest of my post was directed at brrr, sorry for not making it clear. --- I wonder if any mod or DB manager will give his stance on this. |
tiro_finale said: But what brrrr didn't realize is that the actual suggestion is basically renaming shoujo-ai to yuri subtext: I wasn't suggesting that... |
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kitsune0 said: There is no such things as "subtext" in other genres (except yaoi, yes). And can't be. Subtext is when things uncertain. How the Hell things can be uncertain with sport? 0r mecha? There either is sport (mecha, etc) or not. It's like with games. Can you imagine such definition as "FPS subtext"? 0r, may be, "strategy subtext"? Sounds pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Subtext possible only in relationships. Period. You're nearly right with this, but you did forgot het. romance subtext. The problem with 'subtext', - let it be het., yaoi, or Yuri - , it's too wide, and nobody can say where are it's boders, hence, using it as tags can realy cause confusion. |
tiro_finale said: I did realize that. That's exactly what I meant when I said: But what brrrr didn't realize is that the actual suggestion is basically renaming shoujo-ai to yuri subtext: brrr said: If [the suggestion to add yuri subtext] doesn't make clear what's already wrong with the shoujo-ai tag, then I don't know what will. And that's exactly why I think the shoujo-ai should be removed. You know, in addition to the fact that it's incorrect. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
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