Evangelion: 3.0 You Can (Not) Redo Episode 1 Discussion

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Apr 2012

752

I really enjoyed this film. Granted, not as much as the previous two, but it certainly has merits in its own right. I think the whole alienated feeling was a very solid approach, with Kaworu being the only guidance that Shinji had. It's very reminiscent of the late teen/early 20's episodes where Shinji has nobody to guide him and everyone just starts to regress to some sick infantile stage of loneliness. This film was done much better in building Shinji and Kaworu's (almost homoerotic) relationship, and I'm certainly happy that it was granted enough time. (In comparison, the sole episode for this in NGE felt rushed and could have been executed much better.)

That said, I think there is still a few things that could have been done better. The most prominent issue is the 14-year time skip and how nothing is answered (e.g. what's with Asuka's eye, where is everyone, why even have a 14-year time skip instead of several months or a few years, etc. etc.). This puts a lot of weight onto the last film, and I have my doubt on whether everything can be wrapped up nicely in the very last 90-120 minutes.

Another qualm would be the sole focus on Shinji's anguish and nobody else's. As the audience, we're put square into Shinji's shoes and have no idea what the ... is going on. While this is executed very well, it alienates us from the previous characterization done in the past two films, as we essentially lose all our leads save for Shinji and the introduction of Kaworu. Everyone else is subjected to a deplorable supporting role and we don't get ANY characterization or development other than with Shinji & Kaworu's relationship. In fact, we don't even see much of Shinji progress in this whole film. In this respect, I feel that the film could still have focused on Shinji's anguish while providing just some of the other characters' depression and feelings as well. Moreover, insight into the other characters' feelings (but not too much) could actually give us a stronger basis on feeling the emotional impact that Shinji faces.

Just some thoughts right after finishing it. I"ll likely try to write up an encompassed review later on. All in all, Eva 3.0 chose a solid direction quite true to even NGE, and it'll be up to Eva 4.0 to determine whether 3.0 was worth the set-up.

Jan 12, 2013 2:38 AM

#13

Yup

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May 2008

6388

What exactly did I just watch? Start to finish, the whole thing didn't make any sense. I can understand not being able to see a good chunk of the movie due to a bad camrip but still. This is the most confusing thing I've ever seen. Only NGE can top itself as the most confusing anime ever.

So there was a time skip, okay got that. Third Impact happened? It had lots of issues here, it kept saying it did and it didn't. The planet looks like End of Evangelion so I assume everyone is LCL now? But then why would they still need to go through with the project? Using terms like Fourth Impact, either Third happened or it didn't, ugh. No one answering any questions until halfway through the movie where the only question that was answered was that they are on a moon base.

That there are two sides now makes even less sense. Like how, who survived and what happened? The plot was a mess. The entirety of Nerv is staffed by TWO people. How they were ever a threat is beyond me. Like Nerv is a dead wasteland, so if no one is staffing it how is it running? If there was any other people then Shinji would be able to ask one of them questions in the same way he could of with the other side.

My head hurts from all the inconsistencies. At this point I'm more willing to accept that Shinji was thrown into a parallel universe than trying to figure out what is going on. Well we have a year until the next one, so in that time someone has to make some sense out of this. Theories or something.

Jan 12, 2013 3:13 AM

#14

Mifune-san

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Oct 2008

44

Watched the movie and its something between awesome and odd BS, can't rate it right now. I'm a big fan of the eva series but i dunno about this one, lets wait and hope for a good final in 2013... nah just kidding, 2016

Jan 12, 2013 4:14 AM

#15

Guns47

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Mar 2011

97

Evangelion is known for being DEEP, but this film is just obtuse. So much so, the plot continuously depends on the lack of information being given to Shinji.

Maybe I'll think better of this film later when I rewatch it in HD with an explanatory FAQ in-hand, but something tells me it just isn't as good as the other films and series that came before it.

Guns47Jan 12, 2013 4:19 AM

Jan 12, 2013 5:04 AM

#16

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Sep 2010

1201

Wyvern-Ventrue said:

lanblade said:
So Mari is officially a clone too?

I thought that was Asuka's mother. She was a researcher involved with project E so it wouldn't rule out a meeting with Yui and Shinji.
Also, she looks just like Asuka with Mari's glasses.

That woman resembles to the mistress of Asuka's father in the manga (Asuka there is a test tube baby from other donor, since her mother could never conceived with her husband). Incidentally, Asuka's unexplored 'rival' is the biological daughter of her father and that woman, her design was one of the prototype of Mari.

Food for thought. They could be stepsisters.

Jan 12, 2013 6:59 AM

#17

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Oct 2010

5252

Guns47 said:
Evangelion is known for being DEEP, but this film is just obtuse. So much so, the plot continuously depends on the lack of information being given to Shinji.

Maybe I'll think better of this film later when I rewatch it in HD with an explanatory FAQ in-hand, but something tells me it just isn't as good as the other films and series that came before it.

I think knowing shinji's mental state, they didn't want to tell him what he had done. I mean could you really tell someone in his frame of mind that he essentially brought about the near extinction of mankind?

Yup said:
What exactly did I just watch? Start to finish, the whole thing didn't make any sense. I can understand not being able to see a good chunk of the movie due to a bad camrip but still. This is the most confusing thing I've ever seen. Only NGE can top itself as the most confusing anime ever.

So there was a time skip, okay got that. Third Impact happened? It had lots of issues here, it kept saying it did and it didn't. The planet looks like End of Evangelion so I assume everyone is LCL now? But then why would they still need to go through with the project? Using terms like Fourth Impact, either Third happened or it didn't, ugh. No one answering any questions until halfway through the movie where the only question that was answered was that they are on a moon base.

That there are two sides now makes even less sense. Like how, who survived and what happened? The plot was a mess. The entirety of Nerv is staffed by TWO people. How they were ever a threat is beyond me. Like Nerv is a dead wasteland, so if no one is staffing it how is it running? If there was any other people then Shinji would be able to ask one of them questions in the same way he could of with the other side.

My head hurts from all the inconsistencies. At this point I'm more willing to accept that Shinji was thrown into a parallel universe than trying to figure out what is going on. Well we have a year until the next one, so in that time someone has to make some sense out of this. Theories or something.

None of those were inconsistencies, the third impact was stopped but it had already affected the populace within the area (which is why they showed the destruction that was being caused when Rei and 01 fused), however karowu impaled him with the spear before it could fully happen (because Seele wanted the third impact to happen according to their planning, remember they stated 01 was activated too early).

So essentially the project still wasn't complete, as evident by the fact Willie (the new organization) exists. If the project had gone through completely everyone would have been dissolved. Judging from the looks of things, it can be assumed the base was mostly automated, and it didn't seem that they needed anymore people from the point they had reached (I actually agree that this could be expanded on).

Mod edit: Combined double posts. Please use the edit button instead of making a new post

ArdanazJul 17, 2016 12:21 PM

Jan 12, 2013 8:26 AM

#18

bekeru

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Oct 2008

327

skudoops said:

Guns47 said:
Evangelion is known for being DEEP, but this film is just obtuse. So much so, the plot continuously depends on the lack of information being given to Shinji.

Maybe I'll think better of this film later when I rewatch it in HD with an explanatory FAQ in-hand, but something tells me it just isn't as good as the other films and series that came before it.

I think knowing shinji's mental state, they didn't want to tell him what he had done. I mean could you really tell someone in his frame of mind that he essentially brought about the near extinction of mankind?

It's better tell him already than not telling at all while treating him like a piece of turd.

I'm going to be gentle and give this a 3/5 because my literal reaction to almost everything was "What is going on? why they're doing this?"

Overall trying to grasp a little some plot points:

Too confused, maybe the BD version will clear those points more...I hope so.

>User since 2008
Please god help me quit this website.

Such great community that doesn't even know how demographics work, AND gives """detailed"""" reviews after first episodes.

Jan 12, 2013 8:40 AM

#19

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Apr 2012

752

skudoops said:

Guns47 said:
Evangelion is known for being DEEP, but this film is just obtuse. So much so, the plot continuously depends on the lack of information being given to Shinji.

Maybe I'll think better of this film later when I rewatch it in HD with an explanatory FAQ in-hand, but something tells me it just isn't as good as the other films and series that came before it.

I think knowing shinji's mental state, they didn't want to tell him what he had done. I mean could you really tell someone in his frame of mind that he essentially brought about the near extinction of mankind?

It's not about being considerate about his feelings. If it was, everyone wouldn't be giving him death glares all the time. Simply put, I don't think anyone felt like telling him anything. They all look at him more as an object of contempt than as a human being trying to make sense of his surroundings.

Jan 12, 2013 11:05 AM

#20

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Oct 2010

5252

bekeru said:

skudoops said:

Guns47 said:
Evangelion is known for being DEEP, but this film is just obtuse. So much so, the plot continuously depends on the lack of information being given to Shinji.

Maybe I'll think better of this film later when I rewatch it in HD with an explanatory FAQ in-hand, but something tells me it just isn't as good as the other films and series that came before it.

I think knowing shinji's mental state, they didn't want to tell him what he had done. I mean could you really tell someone in his frame of mind that he essentially brought about the near extinction of mankind?

It's better tell him already than not telling at all while treating him like a piece of turd.

I'm going to be gentle and give this a 3/5 because my literal reaction to almost everything was "What is going on? why they're doing this?"

Overall trying to grasp a little some plot points:

Too confused, maybe the BD version will clear those points more...I hope so.

I actually do hope 4.0 clears up the confusing bits, that's the only way I can reasonably rate this one. I've watched it twice and I enjoyed it alot so I gave it a 9 (-1 for the confusing stuff) but if it leads to something worse I may drop it a bit lower. Additionally -

nil- said:

It's not about being considerate about his feelings. If it was, everyone wouldn't be giving him death glares all the time. Simply put, I don't think anyone felt like telling him anything. They all look at him more as an object of contempt than as a human being trying to make sense of his surroundings.

Possibly, I mean he's essentially the elephant in the room, so it could even be both. No one told him what happened because of his mental state nor did they want to.The death glares could be due to his

1. Reckless endangerment of their lives by triggering the 3rd impact
2. The fact that he can trigger an awakening.

But, I somewhat disagree that they all look at him that way, maybe the new crew but it's clear the older guard still like him, as evident of misato's unwillingness to blow his head off and the fact Asuka still came to see him and the fact they explained to him why they were doing what they doing.

GD1551Jan 12, 2013 11:10 AM

Jan 12, 2013 12:27 PM

#21

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Apr 2012

752

skudoops said:
Possibly, I mean he's essentially the elephant in the room, so it could even be both. No one told him what happened because of his mental state nor did they want to.The death glares could be due to his

1. Reckless endangerment of their lives by triggering the 3rd impact
2. The fact that he can trigger an awakening.

But, I somewhat disagree that they all look at him that way, maybe the new crew but it's clear the older guard still like him, as evident of misato's unwillingness to blow his head off and the fact Asuka still came to see him and the fact they explained to him why they were doing what they doing.

I'm sure they are aware that he didn't intentionally cause 3I. But they've ostensibly been living in a constant state of war and despair for 14 years. It's not surprising that they can't empathize very much for a 14 year old kid who was just trying to save his friend. Moreover, they only explained the situation to him when he was threatening to leave them, and there isn't any evidence throughout the film that they're trying to be considerate of his feelings or mental state. They just don't want him to leave and try to cause Third/Fourth Impact again. Of course they still like them as seen in your examples, but that's buried far beneath 14 years of depression caused (unintentionally) by him.

That said, with the question being "Why didn't they tell him anything?", the only appropriate answer for this is therefore because they just didn't feel like it, not because they're worried if he can take the guilt.

Jan 12, 2013 12:31 PM

#22

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Oct 2010

5252

nil- said:

skudoops said:
Possibly, I mean he's essentially the elephant in the room, so it could even be both. No one told him what happened because of his mental state nor did they want to.The death glares could be due to his

1. Reckless endangerment of their lives by triggering the 3rd impact
2. The fact that he can trigger an awakening.

But, I somewhat disagree that they all look at him that way, maybe the new crew but it's clear the older guard still like him, as evident of misato's unwillingness to blow his head off and the fact Asuka still came to see him and the fact they explained to him why they were doing what they doing.

I'm sure they are aware that he didn't intentionally cause 3I. But they've ostensibly been living in a constant state of war and despair for 14 years. It's not surprising that they can't empathize very much for a 14 year old kid who was just trying to save his friend. Moreover, they only explained the situation to him when he was threatening to leave them, and there isn't any evidence throughout the film that they're trying to be considerate of his feelings or mental state. They just don't want him to leave and try to cause Third/Fourth Impact again. Of course they still like them as seen in your examples, but that's buried far beneath 14 years of depression caused (unintentionally) by him.

That said, with the question being "Why didn't they tell him anything?", the only appropriate answer for this is therefore because they just didn't feel like it, not because they're worried if he can take the guilt.

True, but I really came to that conclusion because Karowu actually used the incident to get Shinji to pilot the EVA, but as a counter point to this one could say that they could have done the same to discourage him from piloting EVAs since he didn't want to pilot them anymore after learning what he had done. So I'm inclined to believe you are more than likely correct. Hopefully 4.0 clears everything up, I'm really interested to see where they are going with it.

Jan 12, 2013 5:21 PM

#23

dash

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Jun 2008

68

coolasj19 said:

Shinji wakes up on a mystery ship with Eva-01 as its battery, everyone is infuriated at him for reasons that no one will explain but we can guess at well enough. Shinji asks question and everyone says " ShutupWeHateYou ". Asuka comes in is ALSO mad but, misses Shinji it feels like apparently.

Why didn't they age in 14 years? Just cause. Why does Asuka have an eyepatch? Don't F'n worry about it. It's none of our business. Then, Shinji leaves! Why? BECAUSE EVERYONE IS MAD AT HIM! And no one will tell him why!

Of course, the scene looked great and from that point on I was excited to what kind of answers Shinji's Gendo was going to give us!
Gendo : Pilot the Eva whenever the time arises. We will not talk again.
Wha.... What?! WTH Gendo? Give me answers!! Say vague religious references, Something! But, no, he gives us 15 words and set Shinji about his way.

I thought it was more to build up the critical point.
also Gendo words do give indirect information or hint about the still on going operation which the later half somewhat explain with more details.

anyway the movie was pretty understandable for the most part just not in the very direct way, if something not explained yet it seems as they gonna explain it in the next movie or at least build it for later(at least I hope so).

Jan 12, 2013 5:43 PM

#24

deg

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Jan 2009

92720

it was enjoyable and lol at people making serious comments about this, their still the last movie to be watch before you say everything in this movie does not make sense

its good thing their is evageeks reading about the term Lilin and Human Instrumentality Project there confirms my understanding presented on this movie

Kaworu and Shinji moments are not as gay as people claim it to be, maybe the exaggeration of people's reaction diminish my view of their supposedly gay relationship

so the original Rei is now part of Eva-01 just like Yui the mother of Shinji, i wonder whats the purpose of Gendo from fusing Rei and Yui into the Eva-01, the last movie is exciting, cannot wait for another 2-3 years of waiting *shrugs*

Jan 12, 2013 5:46 PM

#25

IzConspiracy

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Dec 2012

36

It needed to be longer. All of the movie felt rushed and like the writers were trying to cram too much into that amount of time. I was looking forward to kaworu having his chance at redemption after being used so horribly in the series, but nope. Also, the "curse of eva" bullshit didn't fly with me.

Jan 12, 2013 6:26 PM

#26

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Oct 2010

5252

j0x said:
it was enjoyable and lol at people making serious comments about this, their still the last movie to be watch before you say everything in this movie does not make sense

its good thing their is evageeks reading about the term Lilin and Human Instrumentality Project there confirms my understanding presented on this movie

Kaworu and Shinji moments are not as gay as people claim it to be, maybe the exaggeration of people's reaction diminish my view of their supposedly gay relationship

so the original Rei is now part of Eva-01 just like Yui the mother of Shinji, i wonder whats the purpose of Gendo from fusing Rei and Yui into the Eva-01, the last movie is exciting, cannot wait for another 2-3 years of waiting *shrugs*

Rei and 01 fusing together was supposed to be the original catalyst for the 3rd impact, it just happened at the wrong time. Now I don't know how this is going to play out in 4.0 but that's the reason for them fusing in the first place.

Jan 12, 2013 11:09 PM

#27

deg

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Jan 2009

92720

@skudoops

thanks for the info

Jan 13, 2013 2:22 AM

#28

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Apr 2012

752

j0x said:
Kaworu and Shinji moments are not as gay as people claim it to be, maybe the exaggeration of people's reaction diminish my view of their supposedly gay relationship

It's supposed to be "gay". More accurately, Kaworu's goal in both Rebuild and NGE is to make Shinji happy, and we're often told that Kaworu does this because he truly loves Shinji. Now, is this supposed to be sexual or simply a strong friendship? I would argue that Kaworu's love transcends human relationship constraints, especially given him being an angel (i.e. not human) and to the vast extent that he tries to make Shinji happy. In this regard, yes, it is a bit homoerotic. If you've read some classic tales like Epic of Gilgamesh, the boundaries of friendship and love are often questioned in exactly this manner. After all, what is friendship other than satisfying everything that a romance does save for the sexual component? While romance is naturally defined via "you make baby, I give sperm", friendship isn't canonically defined at all.

Would true friendship transcend even this constraint?

Jan 13, 2013 2:51 AM

#29

deg

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Jan 2009

92720

@nil-

love does not have to be strictly sexual though, i heard their are people that are asexual (people who have no sexual desires/activity) but desires romance and true friendship too

its like loving the internet but your not desiring sexual relationship from it XD

but ye Kaworu and Shinji moments iin this 3rd movie are somehow homophobic but they are not as exaggerated/extreme as people claim it to be imo

Jan 13, 2013 3:59 AM

#30

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Apr 2012

752

j0x said:
@nil-

love does not have to be strictly sexual though, i heard their are people that are asexual (people who have no sexual desires/activity) but desires romance and true friendship too

its like loving the internet but your not desiring sexual relationship from it XD

But I'm not talking about the nuances of the word "love" nor am I trying to get literal in the terminology here. I'm simply stating that Shinji and Kaworu's relationship isn't something that can be clearly defined as a friendship or a romance. It's something that blurs the line between the two, and so it's perfectly justifiable for people to say that their relationship is homoerotic or that they harbor romantic feelings for each other.

Jan 14, 2013 2:35 AM

#31

radle

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Jan 2013

529

It's apparent that somebody is not able to separate the kindness and affection that Kaworu displays towards Shinji from (in his/her mind) sexual under tones. The only interaction we have seen besides Shinji is with Ayanami and it was brief. That is if one has played one of their many spin-off games.

The ones whom I see who question their relationship are those looking for such things (when there's nothing there) and those who have an interest and commit into it in thought and contact. Calling it "justifiable" is simply an excuse.

Feeling Down?
Healing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXr0L4pOnV8
Soothing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT3o_BBH61c
Interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UpZnSjMko4
Female? Gotcha covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8cOqzku9zA
...yeah

Jan 14, 2013 3:39 AM

#32

DraconisMarch

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Aug 2011

1646

Are people actually paying attention to what's going on? Why is it that nobody else is wondering how incoherent this bullshit is?

Turn your brains on. There are billions of questions that just spiderweb into even MORE questions--there are enough just regarding the setup and time skip between 2.0 and 3.0 to fill a whole page at LEAST. And none of them are answered.

This movie was a catastrophic clusterfuck. I was so busy trying to figure out what was going on that it took several hours for how mad I was to actually sink in.

I could go on forever just about that nonsense--much less the buttmess that is the "characters" and context-less action scenes.

Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club

Jan 14, 2013 5:00 AM

#33

coolasj19

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Jul 2010

19

nil- said:

Another qualm would be the sole focus on Shinji's anguish and nobody else's. As the audience, we're put square into Shinji's shoes and have no idea what the ... is going on. While this is executed very well, it alienates us from the previous characterization done in the past two films, as we essentially lose all our leads save for Shinji and the introduction of Kaworu. Everyone else is subjected to a deplorable supporting role and we don't get ANY characterization or development other than with Shinji & Kaworu's relationship. In fact, we don't even see much of Shinji progress in this whole film. In this respect, I feel that the film could still have focused on Shinji's anguish while providing just some of the other characters' depression and feelings as well. Moreover, insight into the other characters' feelings (but not too much) could actually give us a stronger basis on feeling the emotional impact that Shinji faces.

Information deprovation isn't a way to validate bad storytelling. There was 100 minutes to answer questions, develop the now 14 year older charecters, AND follow Shinji in his relationship with Kaworu and witnessing this new world. Besides, we are only in this situation because nobody told us ( The Audience ) or Shinji ( The Protagonist ) anything. The entire movie we are left out of the loop on what's happening. It's okay to give the audiance information the protagonist doesn't know. Heck, that's what the entire original series is. Your right on the mark with everything here, except for taking it all in a positive light.

Honestly, everytime someone told Shinji to shutup, or refused to explain any information I took that as a slap in the face. Not because I felt connected to Shinji, but because it felt like the movie was treating me like a 5 year old that asks question that it just didn't feel like dealing with today.

dash said:

coolasj19 said:

Of course, the scene looked great and from that point on I was excited to what kind of answers Shinji's Gendo was going to give us!
Gendo : Pilot the Eva whenever the time arises. We will not talk again.
Wha.... What?! WTH Gendo? Give me answers!! Say vague religious references, Something! But, no, he gives us 15 words and set Shinji about his way.

I thought it was more to build up the critical point.
also Gendo words do give indirect information or hint about the still on going operation which the later half somewhat explain with more details.
anyway the movie was pretty understandable for the most part just not in the very direct way, if something not explained yet it seems as they gonna explain it in the next movie or at least build it for later(at least I hope so).

The movie was understandable in that. The movie starts. Shinji wakes up. Shinji goes to NERV HQ. Shinji goes outside to the world with Kauro and feels bad about destroying the world. Shinji pilots an EVA and starts 4th Impact. The movie ends.

Everything outside of that is non-sense. And there IS no critical point with Gendo. It's always been this way with him but at least before, we could always see the end of his plan (An altered Human Instrumentality Plan). Everything he says and does is just one big Xanatos Gambit, meaning

Oh, Shinji failed? All part of the plan.

Oh, Shinji succedded? All part of the plan.

I'm fairly convinced that there isn't actually an outcome that ISN'T what Gendo planned. But not because he's a good bad guy but because there's no actual planned outcome. The charecter is just winging it until the world ends finally. There's no discernable reasons for him to do anything that he's doing except blind faith that everything that has, is, and will happen are a some kind of means to an end. I hope Evangelion 4.0 is the most magnificent 100 minutes of expert storytelling that ever has, is, or will be, known to man. Because the Rebuild series just fell flat on its face and slid about 10 meters.

Once again, this is one of the most disappointing, thing I've ever seen. And you know what? It could have been as great if not better than 1.0 and 2.0. This isn't the movie we saw in the preview at the end of Rebuild 2.0. That movie was scrapped mid-way through and in exchange we got this dud of a movie. Hopefully, you can tell I'm actually a bit angry writing this, never has a piece of media been so bad as to actually make me angry. I have to write these post over the course of hours otherwise I'd go on wild tirades that I have to edit out.

DraconisMarch said:
Are people actually paying attention to what's going on? Why is it that nobody else is wondering how incoherent this bullshit is?

Turn your brains on. There are billions of questions that just spiderweb into even MORE questions--there are enough just regarding the setup and time skip between 2.0 and 3.0 to fill a whole page at LEAST. And none of them are answered.

This movie was a catastrophic clusterfuck. I was so busy trying to figure out what was going on that it took several hours for how mad I was to actually sink in.

I could go on forever just about that nonsense--much less the buttmess that is the "characters" and context-less action scenes.

I don't know if quoting just to agree is bad. But, this. You summed up all of my base feelings in that many words.

coolasj19Jan 14, 2013 5:04 AM

Jan 14, 2013 8:24 AM

#34

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Apr 2012

752

radle said:
It's apparent that somebody is not able to separate the kindness and affection that Kaworu displays towards Shinji from (in his/her mind) sexual under tones. The only interaction we have seen besides Shinji is with Ayanami and it was brief. That is if one has played one of their many spin-off games.

The ones whom I see who question their relationship are those looking for such things (when there's nothing there) and those who have an interest and commit into it in thought and contact. Calling it "justifiable" is simply an excuse.

If you've seen NGE, the "sexual undertones" are seen here as well, perhaps in even more light. I guess I'll repeat this, but you seem to forget that Kaworu is not human and so he isn't barred from typical relationship classifications like friendship and romance. After all, an angel loving a human could mean a lot of things in all circles of mythology, and especially given the extent to which Kaworu practically lives for Shinji implies an affection that can't possibly be merely friendship.

Considering Shinji alone, he shows just as much affection for Kaworu as he does for any of his harem girls. Indeed, when has Shinji really shown that he harbors romantic feelings for any of them? So in this sense, rooting for a Shinji-Asuka/Rei/Misato would be just as contrived as rooting for a Shinji-Kaworu. Perhaps Shinji doesn't see Kaworu as more than a friend (and I would also argue so), but it's not any different from, say, how Shinji and Misato see each other. In NGE, Misato offers sex as comfort but Shinji only wants to see her as a mother, and they even share an awfully long kiss in EoE, which implies that their relationship isn't so clearly defined either.

It's not overanalyzing at all, and Kaworu's relationship is commonly considered as something beyond pure friendship not just among fangirl circles (Evageeks is all over this one). Perhaps taking your motivation into light as well, maybe you just don't want to see something that is already in plain sight and which can possibly be a bit discomforting. Taking this more meta, Evangelion has always been somewhat of a psychological character study, and given the Oedipal complex going on with Gendo and Misato/Rei and the siscon-like love with Asuka, it wouldn't be entirely off-basis to consider Shinji and Kaworu's love as something more than friendship either (Gilgamesh and Enkidu being the most commonly referenced classic for this type of relationship).

All in all, I think that's more than enough evidence that I'm not just pulling contrived facts out of nowhere. ;)

coolasj19 said:

nil- said:

Another qualm would be the sole focus on Shinji's anguish and nobody else's. As the audience, we're put square into Shinji's shoes and have no idea what the ... is going on. While this is executed very well, it alienates us from the previous characterization done in the past two films, as we essentially lose all our leads save for Shinji and the introduction of Kaworu. Everyone else is subjected to a deplorable supporting role and we don't get ANY characterization or development other than with Shinji & Kaworu's relationship. In fact, we don't even see much of Shinji progress in this whole film. In this respect, I feel that the film could still have focused on Shinji's anguish while providing just some of the other characters' depression and feelings as well. Moreover, insight into the other characters' feelings (but not too much) could actually give us a stronger basis on feeling the emotional impact that Shinji faces.

Information deprovation isn't a way to validate bad storytelling. There was 100 minutes to answer questions, develop the now 14 year older charecters, AND follow Shinji in his relationship with Kaworu and witnessing this new world. Besides, we are only in this situation because nobody told us ( The Audience ) or Shinji ( The Protagonist ) anything. The entire movie we are left out of the loop on what's happening. It's okay to give the audiance information the protagonist doesn't know. Heck, that's what the entire original series is. Your right on the mark with everything here, except for taking it all in a positive light.

Honestly, everytime someone told Shinji to shutup, or refused to explain any information I took that as a slap in the face. Not because I felt connected to Shinji, but because it felt like the movie was treating me like a 5 year old that asks question that it just didn't feel like dealing with today.

I'm actually not taking it all in a positive light. I'm only saying that the focus on Shinji alone was executed pretty well. However, it may not have been the best direction for a third film where all prior characterization is tossed aside, the pace almost comes to a stop, and even more questions pile up. It's very akin to the late teens/early 20s episodes of NGE, but I would argue that except for Shinji and Kaworu's relationship, NGE pulls off the slower pace and character drama far better than Eva 3.0. I'm giving this a 7/10, but taking my Eva-fanboy enjoyment aside, I'd likely be more prone to giving this a 6 or even 5/10 for the decent but not perfect execution.

Jan 14, 2013 5:12 PM

#35

radle

Offline

Jan 2013

529

Kaworu is human. He's of

However the manner Kaworu behaves is not how we interact since he's a different type of human being of Adam and is fascinated with the Lilin culture for example him humming Ode de Joy and interacting with Shinji as we the viewer only get to see besides Ayanami's brief interaction and Seele. He's genuinely concerned for him while not asking for anything in return. Kaworu also see's things in a broader sense then one on one interactions.

In Shinji's case it doesn't matter what gender they are as long as they are kind to him. Look at him being somewhat getting along when he accepted Touji and Kensuke when they fought and after the Angel incident. Look at him being curious about Ayanami until the truth about her was revealed to him by Ritsuko/Misato. He's like glass as Kaworu described his heart ready to shatter at any moment and in panic mode unless the other is able to establish their feelings. Something Shinji has a hard time doing as we see throughout the series and movies including with Asuka.

In Misato's case the only way she knows how to comfort is sexually. We see this quite allot with her even when Ayanami sacrifices herself that is what she tried to do for Shinji and his response was to reject her.

In the case of myself in your insinuation of not wanting to see something. I am not looking for something, I see a kind person being affectionate with another. You may not show such displays yourself and thus "looking for something" but there are others who clearly do that is in their nature to being that way. Would you call them out?

-----------------------

On topic of the movie.
While I wasn't pleased being in the role of Shinji's perspective not knowing what was going on the execution was well done except when those around him would not tell Shinji why. Also frustrated that Shinji would not consider what they were saying despite not explaining the reason. Kind of in the middle of a tug-o-war, so many questions so little answers. I still don't even know much about Mari what gives with her? I do hope it will be answered in 4.0 but I'm assuming that 3.0 will be worked on a bit to fix the kinks here and there that were in the movie.

Feeling Down?
Healing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXr0L4pOnV8
Soothing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT3o_BBH61c
Interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UpZnSjMko4
Female? Gotcha covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8cOqzku9zA
...yeah

Jan 14, 2013 8:54 PM

#36

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

Are we now speaking of Kaworu's and Shinji's relationship? Seriously people are still in denial that Kaworu's not one of Shinji's harem? Pff that's western lack of exposure to Eva franchise for you.

If he wasn't a serious option, Shinji wouldn't be popular at all. This pairing is the main reason why he preserves fanbase in Japan nowadays. Kaworu's the most popular male character for Khara and he has to get Shinji attached to him like a flea so Shinji would keep selling.

ThessJan 14, 2013 9:45 PM

Jan 15, 2013 2:23 AM

#37

Offline

Apr 2012

752

radle said:
Kaworu is human. He's of

However the manner Kaworu behaves is not how we interact since he's a different type of human being of Adam and is fascinated with the Lilin culture for example him humming Ode de Joy and interacting with Shinji as we the viewer only get to see besides Ayanami's brief interaction and Seele. He's genuinely concerned for him while not asking for anything in return. Kaworu also see's things in a broader sense then one on one interactions.

Ah, you're right. Technically, he is human in the same way that Rei is human (i.e. a Seed of Life taking human form), which is akin to gods and goddeses of Greek mythology taking human form. But that's sort of besides the point, since my main argument here is that he isn't normal; hence he would not so easily conform to human morality or any topic of conventional relationships. Surely you can agree to that.

Psychologically, you can think of Kaworu's fascination with Lilin culture and his affection for Shinji as a strong affection for Lilin in general. He more or less sees Shinji as the poster child for human love, despair, loneliness, etc., and so him thinking of Shinji as "more" than a friend simply means that he sees Lilin/Lilin culture as something not so clearly classified as friendship or "pure" sincerity.

radle said:
In Shinji's case it doesn't matter what gender they are as long as they are kind to him. Look at him being somewhat getting along when he accepted Touji and Kensuke when they fought and after the Angel incident. Look at him being curious about Ayanami until the truth about her was revealed to him by Ritsuko/Misato. He's like glass as Kaworu described his heart ready to shatter at any moment and in panic mode unless the other is able to establish their feelings. Something Shinji has a hard time doing as we see throughout the series and movies including with Asuka.

Exactly, Shinji doesn't really treat anyone special and that's precisely what I was talking about. There are far more people out there hoping Shinji ends up with one of his harem girls (Asuka especially), and my argument is that it's just as contrived as hoping Shinji ends up with Kaworu. It seems you're supporting my argument moreso than refuting it, so I think you agree with me here too.

radle said:
In Misato's case the only way she knows how to comfort is sexually. We see this quite allot with her even when Ayanami sacrifices herself that is what she tried to do for Shinji and his response was to reject her.

My point here is that Shinji and Misato's relationship isn't so clearly defined as parental or romantic. The examples I've stated only support this, as even a parent who only knows how to comfort sexually would in no way do that with their children (!). And by tossing incest into the mix, we can no longer say that the two are merely in a parental relationship. So as with Shinji and Misato's blurred relationship, the same is so with him and Kaworu. In other words, arguing that Misato is a harem girl would be equivalent to arguing Kaworu is a harem boy. This goes right in hand with my "Eva [being] a psychological character study with the Oedipal complex.." statement.

radle said:
In the case of myself in your insinuation of not wanting to see something. I am not looking for something, I see a kind person being affectionate with another. You may not show such displays yourself and thus "looking for something" but there are others who clearly do that is in their nature to being that way. Would you call them out?

Definitely. There are plenty of yaoi fangirls who tend to seek out such lewd topics when there is little to no indication of them (e.g. Koizumi and Kyon in Suzumiya Haruhi). However, in this case, it is no different from the "vanilla" fanboys who seek a Shinji-Asuka/Rei/Misato.

In summary, the points I laid out in the above post are surely still valid. It's kind of beside the point to argue that Shinji and Kaworu's relationship is just pure friendship, since this has been discussed since 1996.. Surely people know this by now. :]

Thess said:
Are we now speaking of Kaworu's and Shinji's relationship? Seriously people are still in denial that Kaworu's not one of Shinji's harem? Pff that's western lack of exposure to Eva franchise for you.

Amen. ;)

Jan 15, 2013 3:57 AM

#38

Elikar

Offline

May 2012

10

Thess said:
Are we now speaking of Kaworu's and Shinji's relationship? Seriously people are still in denial that Kaworu's not one of Shinji's harem? Pff that's western lack of exposure to Eva franchise for you.

If he wasn't a serious option, Shinji wouldn't be popular at all. This pairing is the main reason why he preserves fanbase in Japan nowadays. Kaworu's the most popular male character for Khara and he has to get Shinji attached to him like a flea so Shinji would keep selling.

And i'm getting sick of people trying to make Shinji and Kaworu into something they're not. People may perceive it as a homosexual relationship but seriously... that's not how it is.

Shinji is embarrased by Kaworu's affection because he's never had it before from anyone. Kaworu is very upfront, but his love is a platonic one... not a sexual one.

Shinji is desperate for help and affection, which Kaworu in both 3.0 and NGE turns up at the convient time to give and so Shinji latches onto him.

Why do people not get this? The only character you can legitimately say he has sexual attraction to is Asuka, due to the masturbation scene in EOE and other things. I'm not promoting Asuka x Shinji (I don't support any pairings) but i'm just presenting the facts here.

Jan 15, 2013 5:26 AM

#39

Offline

Apr 2012

752

Elikar said:

Thess said:
Are we now speaking of Kaworu's and Shinji's relationship? Seriously people are still in denial that Kaworu's not one of Shinji's harem? Pff that's western lack of exposure to Eva franchise for you.

If he wasn't a serious option, Shinji wouldn't be popular at all. This pairing is the main reason why he preserves fanbase in Japan nowadays. Kaworu's the most popular male character for Khara and he has to get Shinji attached to him like a flea so Shinji would keep selling.

And i'm getting sick of people trying to make Shinji and Kaworu into something they're not. People may perceive it as a homosexual relationship but seriously... that's not how it is.

Shinji is embarrased by Kaworu's affection because he's never had it before from anyone. Kaworu is very upfront, but his love is a platonic one... not a sexual one.

Shinji is desperate for help and affection, which Kaworu in both 3.0 and NGE turns up at the convient time to give and so Shinji latches onto him.

Why do people not get this? The only character you can legitimately say he has sexual attraction to is Asuka, due to the masturbation scene in EOE and other things. I'm not promoting Asuka x Shinji (I don't support any pairings) but i'm just presenting the facts here.

All you've done is present assertions (not facts) and haven't really supported any of them. Seriously people, it's been almost 17 years since this relationship first popped up, and I'm surprised people still don't understand basic psychology. Things like friendship and romance can't be so clearly established discretely from each other, and it's not surprising that the majority of relationships with Shinji - the posterchild of such a screwed up series - reach fuzzy boundaries. I think my arguments above (post #35) are more than enough to at least hint at something more, and I can't really argue against superficial remarks and beliefs if I don't have anything to refute in the first place.

If you at all approached the series as one typically would for a piece of work (e.g. a literary piece), then it would be more expected than surprising that such themes of friendship vs romance pop up everywhere.

Jan 15, 2013 7:37 AM

#40

bekeru

Offline

Oct 2008

327

>Discussing this subject
>After almost 18 years

About NGE overall... I'm just going to drop this particular page from D&R book, which some might have seen, but a unstranslated chunk of text was missing in translation over the years 'til a kind anon made a small favor:

It's all up to your interpretation, really.

__

I already left my thoughts about the movie overall and I was mostly nice because of the OST too, but it's still too confusing and the final battle made me go "what the fuck is going on" the entire time.
I'll rewatch when the BD is out in hope that some questions will leave my mind.

bekeruJan 15, 2013 7:47 AM

>User since 2008
Please god help me quit this website.

Such great community that doesn't even know how demographics work, AND gives """detailed"""" reviews after first episodes.

Jan 15, 2013 8:10 AM

#41

ShinFrank

Offline

May 2008

40

just got done watching the crappy cam rip cant wait for the BD and for 4.0 to come out hoping at least some of the millions of questions are answered in it.

Jan 15, 2013 1:02 PM

#42

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

Elikar said:
And i'm getting sick of people trying to make Shinji and Kaworu into something they're not. People may perceive it as a homosexual relationship but seriously... that's not how it is.

Off topic stuff.

Well, now that's addressed, I think the most intriguing piece of the movie is what exactly is Instrumentality this time around? It doesn't seem to be anything related to merge minds in a hivemind because this isn't the focus. Is it "artificial evolution"? Let's take a look at the theme of change Kaworu brings up: Shinji's changing, Asuka changed too, Mari too presumably. New lifeforce were birthed. SEELE changed the shape of their souls to live for a long long time.

ThessJan 15, 2013 2:04 PM

Jan 15, 2013 4:56 PM

#43

Darkmatterx76

Offline

Jun 2012

66

I saw the cam, both of them, and the first time I watched it, I kept expecting Shinji to wake up right up until he walks around with Rei... I just kept saying to myself, "OK, this is to strange to be whats really going on." I feel like there was a Rebuild 2.5 movie out there somewhere that I somehow missed, because 3 opens up with so much stuff now in the past its really hard to get your bearings. It kinda reminded me of those shows where the main character ends up in some evil mirror version of their universe. Hell, the movie was even lacking in fanservice! I only remember seeing 1 quick shot of Rei's back/butt for the whole movie. Normally I wouldn't even point this out but since they love to promise "lots of fanservice!" at the end of each ep/movie I figured I might as well bitch about that too!

It just never really came together for me, and never actually felt like Evangelion. Evangelion has certain things in it that you just expect (even if your wrong to expect it) like Nerv (functional), Angels (#13, to human to be human doesn't count), up's and downs between Shinji and "the gang", and all the secondary characters who we're used to seeing running around Nerv shouting about their imminent death. I know they were on the Wunder but the couple minutes of screen time with evil stares didn't really cut it for me. :(

I have a million questions but even if I limited it to the first scene in the movie I'd have a ton of questions. Where was 01 all that time? How did they even get him to where 02 was able to grab it? Why was it there, and in a box to begin with? Its not like that box would have held it if it had woken up. How is 01 acting as a power core/anti-grav unit for Wunder when Eva's normally can't even move without a battery or a power cord? Was Shinji "whole" and sleeping those 14 years or was he goo like in NGE? Why was Rei not in the tube with Shinji when she was at the end of Movie 2? She wasn't a illusion because she brought back Shinji's tape player. Why didn't they remove Shinji/Rei sooner? Why did Wille even bother getting Shinji back if they all hated him?
OH and last (not really) but not least, why the HELL is everyone so mad at Shinji when they know damn well that he was just trying to save Rei and obviously NO ONE knew something like that was going to happen? I also would have likeexplanationation as to how most of the rest of humanity died out from 01 "waking up" when he was only in that state for a few minutes and then Kaworu speared him, closing the opening to the Sea of Driac (sp?) I mean, it didn't even kill the 5 or 6 people who were STANDING RIGHT THERE watching it happen!

As a parting gift, I would like to present this as what I consider to be, the ultimate visual display of my feelings of WTF regarding the transition from movie 2, to 3.

.........
wtf?
.........

Jan 15, 2013 5:52 PM

#44

Guns47

Offline

Mar 2011

97

Darkmatterx76 said:
what Where How Why How Why Why Why why how WTF wtf?

It's too bad RedLetterMedia will never talk about Eva3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0

Jan 15, 2013 6:34 PM

#45

Darkmatterx76

Offline

Jun 2012

66

Guns47 said:

Darkmatterx76 said:
what Where How Why How Why Why Why why how WTF wtf?

LOL that pretty much sums up my post, yep. :)

Jan 16, 2013 7:37 PM

#46

Roboris

Offline

Jan 2013

66

Thess said:

Darkmatterx76 said:

I have a million questions but even if I limited it to the first scene in the movie I'd have a ton of questions...

Lol, i know how you feel...
The worst thing is that those are questions that belong to the past, they've introduced so many new elements that it's pretty much gonna be impossible to answer everything. For example: Why does Asuka have a cross shaped/blue glowing light under the eyepatch? Why is she able to break a glass panel with a punch? Why does Mari seem to know Gendo and call him Gendo-kun? Why does she tell Shinji to "at least help Asuka" in a situation where that doesn't make any sense (foreshadowing much? Or maybe just a bad translation?)? How did they build such a huge battleship in 14 years while being under attack? Why do they have to make Shinji (nearly) destroy the world in every movie? How can he learn to play the piano in 1 minute?
I'll stop here, but seriously this movie has left me with so many question and the doubt they will never be fully answered.
I think i can answer some of your questions though.

Darkmatterx76 said:

Why was it there, and in a box to begin with? Its not like that box would have held it if it had woken up.

That wasn't a normal box, it was an angel-box. Sturdier than normal boxes...

Darkmatterx76 said:
Was Shinji "whole" and sleeping those 14 years or was he goo like in NGE? Why was Rei not in the tube with Shinji when she was at the end of Movie 2? She wasn't a illusion because she brought back Shinji's tape player.

Shinji was probably whole, the curse of the Eva (how Asuka calls it) probably prevented him from growing up. Rei fused herself with the eva core and she's now with Yui inside it, not possessing a physical body anymore. She had the player with herself inside the entryplug.

Darkmatterx76 said:
why the HELL is everyone so mad at Shinji when they know damn well that he was just trying to save Rei and obviously NO ONE knew something like that was going to happen?

That's easy. Even if he didn't mean to, he still destroyed the world. I think that's enough of a good reason (it's been 14 years...). Bear in mind that the new faces around don't even know why he did that. Misato shows that she still cares for him though (a bit, not too much). Asuka seems to be holding a personal grudge against him for what happened in 2.0, but she still helps him in her own way (see the scene at the end). So not everything is as negative as it seems...

As for Kaworu stopping the impact, that was in the preview for the third movie. And u can clearly see that there's no trace of that scene in 3.0. They probably scrapped it.

Jan 17, 2013 11:32 AM

#47

Darkmatterx76

Offline

Jun 2012

66

Roboris said:

As for Kaworu stopping the impact, that was in the preview for the third movie. And u can clearly see that there's no trace of that scene in 3.0. They probably scrapped it.

No, I'm pretty sure the preview didn't start till after that scene.

Jan 17, 2013 11:38 AM

#48

Offline

Apr 2012

752

Darkmatterx76 said:

Roboris said:

As for Kaworu stopping the impact, that was in the preview for the third movie. And u can clearly see that there's no trace of that scene in 3.0. They probably scrapped it.

No, I'm pretty sure the preview didn't start till after that scene.

I think he means post-credits in general. It doesn't really make sense if Kaworu did stop the impact as implied from that scene. So it was likely scrapped, unless there's some contrived reason for how Eva-01 caused Third Impact anyways.

Jan 17, 2013 4:21 PM

#49

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

Oh, the Impact was stopped. Otherwise nobody would be alive and Shinji would awake in a world of hulking crimson Eva creatures.

It doesn't mean the effect wasn't huge before it stopped. Remember the Second Impact? That was stopped too. Only the First Impact went all out and eliminated all the lifeforms that were on Earth until it took place.

Jan 17, 2013 4:33 PM

#50

Offline

Apr 2012

752

Thess said:
Oh, the Impact was stopped. Otherwise nobody would be alive and Shinji would awake in a world of hulking crimson Eva creatures.

It doesn't mean the effect wasn't huge before it stopped. Remember the Second Impact? That was stopped too. Only the First Impact went all out and eliminated all the lifeforms that were on Earth until it took place.

I was under the assumption that the Third Impact caused far more damage than that immeasurably small amount shown in Eva 2.0/the post-credits. Otherwise, everyone wouldn't be so pissed off at Shinji instead of NERV/SEELE for being the masterminds behind at all.