Criticisms about dubs that made you want to slap your forehead and go, &quot;what the f*** are you talking about?!&quot;

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

JTurner said:
Now the difference between an Anime dub vs a Japanese version is that the Anime dub is done by someone else other than the director of the show, but on the other hand, if the director in question approves of that other person's work, then who are people to say that a dub is inherently wrong? Opinions are one thing, imposing them on others is another.

The director, not the author of the manga. In the case of both English AND Japanese dubs, it's the responsibility of someone other than the author to assign voices he or she thinks are appropriate for each character. Neither is inherently closer to a "true" version because both undergo the exact same process of being left to a person who didn't create the characters.

Aug 3, 2012 6:39 PM

#303

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Enjolras1830 said:
you miss understood me abd how i first got exposed ti ENG dubs and why 100% of the time i saw the Japanese version 1st and since in decently bilingual Japanese being my First Language englsh binbg my 4th Latin and Cantonese bing my other 2 [ what i do as i Listen or any eng dub it traslate it Back in to Japanese in my head line by line
so check how close it is to the script in know fron m the japanese version

the closest i ever sceen the the Dub of Mach go go go witch is Line ofr line [ minus name changes] the same as the Japanese makes you think [ Dubbing has got worse isnce when that was dubbed

Your manner of speech really, really doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in your English. If that's the best you can write, then I'm sorry to say you have yet to master the language; and if not... come on, show some respect, man.

Aug 3, 2012 6:42 PM

#304

DateYutaka

Offline

Mar 2011

25072

XTApocalypse said:

JTurner said:
Now the difference between an Anime dub vs a Japanese version is that the Anime dub is done by someone else other than the director of the show, but on the other hand, if the director in question approves of that other person's work, then who are people to say that a dub is inherently wrong? Opinions are one thing, imposing them on others is another.

The director, not the author of the manga. In the case of both English AND Japanese dubs, it's the responsibility of someone other than the author to assign voices he or she thinks are appropriate for each character. Neither is inherently closer to a "true" version because both undergo the exact same process of being left to a person who didn't create the characters.

One word can defeet your view that is
Gundam

all the traslation and musical errors in UC Gundam Dubs when done for TV and some times DVD when Tomino directed that show is the creator

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Aug 3, 2012 8:08 PM

#305

Offline

Nov 2007

911

I'm sorry, but claiming Speed Racer is the most accurate English dub ever is a forehead slapper.

Aug 3, 2012 9:05 PM

#306

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Enjolras1830 said:

XTApocalypse said:

JTurner said:
Now the difference between an Anime dub vs a Japanese version is that the Anime dub is done by someone else other than the director of the show, but on the other hand, if the director in question approves of that other person's work, then who are people to say that a dub is inherently wrong? Opinions are one thing, imposing them on others is another.

The director, not the author of the manga. In the case of both English AND Japanese dubs, it's the responsibility of someone other than the author to assign voices he or she thinks are appropriate for each character. Neither is inherently closer to a "true" version because both undergo the exact same process of being left to a person who didn't create the characters.

One word can defeet your view that is
Gundam

all the traslation and musical errors in UC Gundam Dubs when done for TV and some times DVD when Tomino directed that show is the creator

I don't know what you just said.

Are you saying that this "Tomino" person is both the manga author and the anime director? If so, that doesn't really affect my point: this is an extremely rare case. And what do you mean by "translation and musical errors?" What's your definition of an "error?"

Aug 3, 2012 9:23 PM

#307

DateYutaka

Offline

Mar 2011

25072

XTApocalypse said:

Enjolras1830 said:

XTApocalypse said:

JTurner said:
Now the difference between an Anime dub vs a Japanese version is that the Anime dub is done by someone else other than the director of the show, but on the other hand, if the director in question approves of that other person's work, then who are people to say that a dub is inherently wrong? Opinions are one thing, imposing them on others is another.

The director, not the author of the manga. In the case of both English AND Japanese dubs, it's the responsibility of someone other than the author to assign voices he or she thinks are appropriate for each character. Neither is inherently closer to a "true" version because both undergo the exact same process of being left to a person who didn't create the characters.

One word can defeet your view that is
Gundam

all the traslation and musical errors in UC Gundam Dubs when done for TV and some times DVD when Tomino directed that show is the creator

I don't know what you just said.

Are you saying that this "Tomino" person is both the manga author and the anime director? If so, that doesn't really affect my point: this is an extremely rare case. And what do you mean by "translation and musical errors?" What's your definition of an "error?"

Music change= Music error Zeta being the main Culprate in that

the Possibly of muisc change is one of if on the mian reison of why the proper version do ro remember love [ as well as the game to the movie] was not rlesle in US

the best dub i heard is Eva comes close to the Japanese but the simple fact that Daijin and Ogata megumi* have such perfect chemistry means its impssibe for any thing to beat it there another exmaple of Cerator making the Japanese version
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*some thing foud out from talking to people from gainax [ at my job ] most of Eva TV anime cuase money was so short [ at that time ] it was recored in one take no rehearsal time or nothing

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Aug 6, 2012 7:57 AM

#308

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Very, very few dubs change the music, especially modern ones. Pretty much just 4Kids. Which means this is yet another argument that became outdated over a decade ago. Also, there are cases where music could be changed for the better, DBZ being a prime example. The Japanese soundtrack to the series was just completely unfitting for the series.

If the only thing you've come here to do is bash and complain about dubs, Enjolras, there are other places to do it; this is your warning. Further baiting/trolling will result in a ban from the club.

Aug 6, 2012 4:24 PM

#309

Offline

Nov 2007

911

Funimation likes to redub some of the songs, but they try to use voice talent that can sing (Kristine Sa, Brina Palencia), or if it doesn't matter, then it doesn't (Laura Bailey doing Sana raps in Kodocha). It has been decades since Reba West sang as Minmay in Robotech.

Aug 7, 2012 8:37 AM

#310

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

I took "music changing" to mean changing the background music to the series, as in Sailor Moon and 4Kids' One Piece. Dubbing over the title sequence is usually pulled off much better and just shows how commited the dubbers are to the project; not to mention in those cases, the original version is always included on the DVD release in addition to the dubbed opening/closing.

Aug 7, 2012 10:57 AM

#311

Offline

Nov 2007

911

Ah, the background music. The last noticeable one to me besides DBZ was Tokyopop's tricked out dubbing and editing on Initial D, which was thankfully undone by Funimation's version.

Aug 11, 2012 12:01 PM

#312

Offline

Jan 2008

537

XTApocalypse said:
Very, very few dubs change the music, especially modern ones. Pretty much just 4Kids. Which means this is yet another argument that became outdated over a decade ago. Also, there are cases where music could be changed for the better, DBZ being a prime example. The Japanese soundtrack to the series was just completely unfitting for the series.

Disney's dub of "Castle in the Sky" had a major music change, too, which arguably enhanced the film more than its more sparse Japanese counterpart. Don't get me wrong, the music in the Japanese version is absolutely beautiful and there are some very nice moments of silence. But it was done mostly on electronics, and as such, it sounds somewhat dated technically compared to Joe Hisaishi's later work. When Disney did their dub, they commissioned Hisaishi-san to rerecord and extend his music with the Seattle Music Orchestra, resulting with a deeply rich, fuller-sounding symphony that really breathes a lot of new color and power into an already great film. Yes, it DOES overlay some of the silences from the Japanese, but I truthfully don't care about any of that; the overall rescore is superb and arguably MADE the dub for me. Taking it out of the film (which Disney did in 2010, mainly because many purists railed viciously against the new score, declaring that it was a "crime against all humanity", and/or a case of "taking away from the director's intention/alienating kids to a new culture, etc.") only makes the Disney dub feel more empty and less epic IMO. "Castle in the Sky" is one of the few examples of music change arguably for the better... and by one of the original creators. And to add more fuel to the fire to the aforementioned argument about the new score "compromising" Miyazaki's original vision, the director in question approved of the new work. He himself! He certainly didn't think the new score was adverse to his movie at all. Why else would he allow it to stay on the BD release (the Japanese and UK, Australian ones anyway; the US version mysteriously omits the new score, too)?

Aug 13, 2012 12:08 PM

#313

Offline

Nov 2007

911

Miyazaki's certainly big enough to seek approval. I wonder how many dub titles bother to do that instead of just licensing and doing whatever the heck they want. I know Funimation made the connection to One Piece a big deal.

Aug 17, 2012 12:05 PM

#314

Offline

Jan 2008

537

Angus said:
Miyazaki's certainly big enough to seek approval. I wonder how many dub titles bother to do that instead of just licensing and doing whatever the heck they want. I know Funimation made the connection to One Piece a big deal.

Disney had to get the approval from Miyazaki because the artist was outraged at what New World Pictures had done to "Nausicaa", editing it as the infamous "Warriors of the Wind"—that was done without his approval. It's ironic, though, that there are naysayers who still want to find a reason to rip apart the Disney dubs despite the fact that Miyazaki himself APPROVED of them all.

Aug 17, 2012 2:37 PM

#315

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

"Warriors of the Wind?" I've never heard of that one. Was that version ever actually released?

Aug 17, 2012 9:11 PM

#316

Offline

Jan 2008

537

XTApocalypse said:
"Warriors of the Wind?" I've never heard of that one. Was that version ever actually released?

"Warriors of the Wind" is a heavily cut down, 90-minute edit of Miyazaki's 1984 "Nausicaa". It WAS released on video for a short period of time around 1985-1986, but it fell badly out of print and Miyazaki has even told his fans to "put it out of your minds".

And no wonder: the characters' names are all rewritten, the environmental undertones of the story are gone, and the voice acting is, at best, awful. All the changes were done without Miyazaki's knowledge or permission, and because of that he has demanded that all dubs of his films should be done under HIS approval. Disney has followed suit on the releases of his movies, (and they were never responsible for the "Warriors" edit).

Aug 17, 2012 9:32 PM

#317

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Interesting. Another potential member of my VHS-only collection, maybe. I've got the Urusei Yatsura dub, and I feel confident I can't do much worse than that.

Sep 25, 2012 7:37 AM

#318

Animewolfguy

Offline

Apr 2012

1279

"Fail. The english dub voice acting field is still un-inspiring. Which is why major animated films are generally voiced by A-list actors. Whereas Japanese Voice Actors are considered A-List celebrities as well because the depth and nature is TOPS. This proves that you don't appreciate the original voice actors"

This has to be one reason why dub haters are so hated. I already posted this on the club comment but I thought I put it here so that everyone could check it out. Oh and I got this as a comment reply on youtube of the trailer of the black lagoon DvDs.

Sep 25, 2012 10:40 AM

#319

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Animewolfguy said:
"Japanese Voice Actors are considered A-List celebrities"

I'd also like to point out that there is absolutely nothing true about this statement.

Sep 25, 2012 7:11 PM

#320

Offline

Jan 2008

537

XTApocalypse said:

Animewolfguy said:
"Japanese Voice Actors are considered A-List celebrities"

I'd also like to point out that there is absolutely nothing true about this statement.

Absolutely. The Japanese seiyuu, in the end, are not any different (better or worse) than their American counterparts, they too are voice actors.

Sep 26, 2012 9:03 PM

#321

Offline

Nov 2007

911

The person must have it backwards for Black Lagoon? (just kidding, I like Megumi Toyoguchi as Revy too)

Oct 6, 2012 9:53 AM

#322

Offline

Jan 2008

537

<<Anime is a distinct art form. Because it is an art form, any alteration to the original anime is an unacceptable compromise of artistic integrity.
Because dubbing into a different language compromises the artistic integrity of the anime, the only proper way to view anime is in the original unedited Japanese version with subtitles based on a literal English translation.>>

Here's what I have to say to this:

I don't consider Anime a form of "art", just a different form of entertainment. And art is always open to different interpretations. Furthermore, I'll bet that when, say, Disney dubs their own films in other countries, they have to make some changes too. It goes both ways.

Also, any alteration is totally unacceptable? I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't hold any water either. An undistorted, slavishly faithful subtitle script does not cut it when it comes to dubbing. Either way, changes have to be made; it cannot be helped. The reasons for mouth flap and/or natural flow, but also for some things that wouldn't translate very well to audiences alien to the culture.

Case in point: SPIRITED AWAY had Chihiro mention that the building in front of her was a bathhouse in the English version. That was because American audiences would not have understood that that was what it was. But because of that aforementioned argument, purists still objected.

Also, whether any such changes compromise the artist's "original" intention ultimately depends on the director. If Miyazaki thought the changes Disney made to his films were not complimentary, he wouldn't have allowed them to be changed. That he allowed the changes in the first place probably means that he's not so puritanical about his films. I have found absolutely no reason to hate any of the Ghibli dubs, especially since I'm aware of the back-and-forth process that happens behind the scenes.

Now if it was somebody like Steven Foster, I would definitely make the argument right there about changes such as his bordering on unacceptable. Case in point: in Orphen he basically did his own thing with the script, basically disrgarding the source material with nary a nod to the original. That is what I would call unacceptable. I don't know if he's still applying this practice or not, but hearing about Orphen does lend SLIGHT credibility to the argument.

But that's not to say I think that any changes to a script are altogether unacceptable if they mostly convey the same ideas. In Wings of Honneamise, there's a monologue from the military trainer early in the film when he's scolding Shiro. In the sub, his lines go something like this:

"Lots of free time, eh, Shiro? I didn’t realize your job here was to take naps! You know what this is? A one deem coin. It can buy you a loaf of bread or a bottle of oil. But they say a Khozel bandit would kill a man for one of these. So, if you think about it, it’s worth quite a lot. Overtime pay. Getting an advance should make you weep with joy! And now from you I want 300 push-ups. And after that, I want 500 sit-ups!"

And now the dub goes like this:

"And here he is, asleep again, sitting like a vat of basking fat, waiting for his dough to double in size! Suppose I’m the bandit in Khozel. Your life now equals nothing. But that’s familiar to you, right? And my gun’s in your face and your offer is one deem coin of overtime. Think, ya damn idiot! You’d be dead right now, and there’s your pay. Do you ever even think?! Five-hundred sit-ups. NOW!"

The abovementioned change does strike me as borderline rewrite, but at the same time it still features much of the same ideas and the intention is still the same, so even if the writing is not word-for-word, it at least keeps most of the original meaning intact. So changes like that are acceptable to me.

And here's another point:

"Dubs are simply a translation of the language."

If that was all that dubs were all about, then why would I be watching them? The person who said that was attacking Disney's dub of "Arrietty", stating that any changes that Disney made to those two were utterly unacceptable, never mind that Ghibli had to approve of them in the first place.

JTurnerOct 6, 2012 12:37 PM

Oct 8, 2012 10:49 AM

#323

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

It doesn't matter if you're watching dubs or subs--you're still getting a translated version. You're not getting the original unless you go take some Japanese courses at community college or something. The only inherent difference is that dubs have the restriction of having to time the mouth movements; therefore, sentences get rearranged out of necessity, but rarely does any meaning get lost. And when it does happen, that's the choice of the director and/or line producer--by no means is it inherent to all dubs.

I think art and entertainment are synonymous, personally. But the whole "unadulterated" argument ignores a huge point: Very rarely is the original manga author directly involved in the production of the anime. So, Japanese or English, you're getting an adaptation--there's just no way around that. You're just getting two versions of the same adaptation.

Also, I'm missing your point about Spirited Away. They called it a bath house in the Japanese version, and they called it a bath house in the English version; what were you trying to say, exactly? I do think that dubs should never make changes to the script for cultural reasons, myself--in most cases, when a production company has a global market in mind (as in, they think it may have potential outside of Japan), it's not hard to make most shows fairly "culture neutral." With the exception of extreme cases, like Azumanga Daioh--which is about day-to-day Japanese life, but those sorts of series tend to have fanbases composed almost entirely of people who have prior experience with anime anyhow.

Oct 10, 2012 5:59 PM

#324

Offline

Jan 2008

537

XTApocalypse said:
Also, I'm missing your point about Spirited Away. They called it a bath house in the Japanese version, and they called it a bath house in the English version; what were you trying to say, exactly?

There was a scene in the beginning of the movie, just after Chihiro watches her parents make pigs out of themselves. She explores around the town and when she sees the bath house, she says "that's weird". And in the next shot where we see the building, she says "It's a bath house." This latter line was not in the original Japanese version. The reason why that line was added in was so that audiences wouldn't be so confused.

Since that movie was basically one of the more "culturally releveant", in terms of Japanese literature, small changes like that are understandable. But in films like "Castle in the Sky", "Kiki", and "Howl", which basically set in fantasy European countries, there's less of a cultural issue, so there's a bit of a looseness as to how the dialogue can flow. I do think they went a bit overboard in the script at places in "Castle in the Sky" (the last part of Sheeta's speech at the end of the film, for instance), but that's hardly a drawback and arguably a small price to pay for an otherwise superb dub.

Oct 11, 2012 12:41 PM

#325

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Were there big Japanese signs on the building that read "bento" or "bath house?" If so, that would probably just be their way of translating sans the subtext (they were marketing the movie largely to children). If not... well, the line's not really out of place in either language.

Oct 16, 2012 2:52 PM

#326

Offline

Jan 2008

537

XTApocalypse said:
Were there big Japanese signs on the building that read "bento" or "bath house?" If so, that would probably just be their way of translating sans the subtext (they were marketing the movie largely to children). If not... well, the line's not really out of place in either language.

Last I looked, there WAS a sign over the doorway that DID have the Japanese characters. So yes, it WAS their way of translating that. But hardcore fans basically ignored that argument and stated that the act was unforgivable. However, it was mostly because such "fans" were trying to look for an excuse to hate on Disney for acquiring the Ghibli titles, because at the time they believed Disney was intentionally trying to screw them. Of course the whole argument fell through because of evidence telling otherwise, but there still are a few out there who do stubbornly cling to it.

Aug 16, 2013 3:30 PM

#327

Khooni

Offline

Aug 2013

3

"japanes to english translations are not good in english dub" the most common arguement. Doesnt make sense at all because the subtitles that they're reading are also the product of the same translation, which mean that the whatever subs that they're reading are the same ones that are being used in the english dubs.

Aug 16, 2013 3:55 PM

#328

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Well. Not necessarily. When dubbing, writers have to take into account fluidity and syllable count, which means words have to be shuffled around and speech paraphrased. The meaning rarely changes, though, and when it does, it's intentional--like 4Kids.

Aug 16, 2013 4:00 PM

#329

gamer2710

Offline

Aug 2012

3305

Khooni said:
"japanes to english translations are not good in english dub" the most common arguement. Doesnt make sense at all because the subtitles that they're reading are also the product of the same translation, which mean that the whatever subs that they're reading are the same ones that are being used in the english dubs.

That kind of criticism is more nitpicky on trivialities than anything else, really. Dub or sub, people are still essentially watching the same show, with the same characters, story, and setting, just with different voices.

The translation criticism shouldn't really matter unless the localization is really screwed up. For me, either extreme of the literal-liberal continuum is bad for a dub, because in either case, the dub ceases to be a faithful adaptation and becomes either a mere lazy copy (which also may or may not be referred to as too "weeaboo" by some people, e.g. Sentai Filmworks) or an entirely new show (e.g. 4kids trying to "kiddify" their anime such as One Piece).

This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion.

Sep 7, 2014 1:05 PM

#330

Maakurai

Offline

May 2014

115

I don't remeber what the argument was like, but it could be summarized like this:
"I hate dubs because pressing a couple of buttons to change the language is too much for me"

Sep 7, 2014 1:46 PM

#331

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

Markrye said:
I don't remeber what the argument was like, but it could be summarized like this:
"I hate dubs because pressing a couple of buttons to change the language is too much for me"

In what case would someone have to do that?

DVD's - Usually English by default if they're dual audio
Netflix/Hulu - Usually English by default if they're dual audio
Downloads - About half and half, default English or Japanese among dual audio files
Streams - Either dubbed or subbed single streams, almost never dual audio

No matter how you slice it, you encounter dubs by default a lot more often, and have to go out of your way to switch to Japanese with subtitles.

Sep 13, 2014 11:01 AM

#332

Razerrey

Offline

May 2014

62

One thing I have never understood ..is if people hate dubz ya the hell do they watch them....I mean most if not all DVD releases also come with the original japanese voice as will as the dub...so ya watch it if up hate it ...
Another thing is a lot of people complain the dub is censored ....a lot of fan subs have profanity that the series daz not have I mean ..a pg 13 anime would have profanity in the sub but when the dub daz not put any they complain ...its not supose'do to have .... EG Naruto and Fairy Tail dude really there were so many complains about naruto censorship that they had to re dub it and put out the uncutdub ....W.T'F its a pg 13 show if u could understand japanese up would not here profanity but no ....they still complain for some unknown reason that never makes sense...

Sep 13, 2014 12:15 PM

#333

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

The "dubs are edited" argument is outdated because most dubs aren't edited. At least not the commercial versions. A lot of them, such as Naruto, still receive TV edits which are absent on the DVD releases. That said, I do agree with the sentiment that making edits/censoring on a DVD release is an atrocious crime against the art of anime.

The Japanese language is different from our own in that there aren't really any designated "curse" words. There's not really any such thing as "profanity" in the American sense of the word in the Japanese language, so the translation is pretty open to how the translators want to interpret the exclamations. And with THAT said, it's not just language that was edited in Naruto (and other similar TV edits). Scenes were cut, episodes skipped, and visual edits made so that the show was less violent, etc. They do go all out.

Sep 15, 2014 3:24 PM

#334

Zadion

Offline

Oct 2013

4354

One of the worst things I've read lately is people complaining about SUPERIOR changes in dub dialogue. I was watching Steins;Gate recently and one member posted a side-by-side comparison of the dub dialogue to the sub dialogue while making the point that "this is why I always watch the series dubbed." Then someone who replied to him couldn't even deny that the dubbed dialogue was FAR more witty but just said he hates that dubs aren't 100% completely accurate to the source, even though the same point was being made. Wtf?

Like, seriously, what the fuck?

☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos
☩ RateYourMusic
☩ last.fm

Sep 15, 2014 3:36 PM

#335

Offline

Dec 2009

1464

I guess I can understand that. I'm kind of on the fence about that myself. I have a hard time deciding whether I support the decision to change dialogue, even if it's an improvement.

(That said, I'll watch it either way)

Sep 19, 2014 10:43 PM

#336

SeibaaHomu

Offline

Mar 2012

5238

The thing about the people who adamantly despise dubs is that very, very few of them (If any at all) are speaking from experience. It's always some arbitrary decision based on what some guy on the Internet said or a 30 second clip from a bad 4kids dub.

Sep 20, 2014 6:18 AM

#337