Attack on Titan
biggest flaw?
| Just felt a bit indifferent to it, like its not memorable at all. |
| the ending doesn't work because Eren only becomes a villain after a time skip so his change in ideology feels artificial instead of natural. |
 People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: @ma1kawa11 honestly thats the point where it went from a great anime to one of the best pieces of fiction ive consumed. but i understand that it can throw you off, especially if you werent yet invested in the story until that point I was a huge fan of s1 through 3. time slips are awful because a jump between a protagonist having one view to another prevents you from reliably justifying the change visually. it therefore prevents me from suspending by disbelief of the character and becomes a contradiction to their earlier ideals. it also just feels like a cop out to what could have just been better writing. my favorite kinds of stories are tragedies but I am very picky as to what makes a tragedy good. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
| if there were interim seasons where it shows Eren coming to the conclusions he did it would've worked much better than it did. it also didn't help that the change In visual design and studios made it not feel like the same show I watched before. also fuck gabi, worst character in the entire show. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
NeoSchizo said: eren was my most favorite character, that was until i watched the finale, like bro is worse than h*tler Eren's rumbling was justifiable, basically retaliatory genocide (dont forget that marley was already sending titans to paradis for decades, they were already attacking paradis), while hitler's holocaust cannot be justified in any way whatsoever, so it always baffles me when people make such comparisons. When i see the fanbase agreeing with the avengers crew that eren should be stopped because "genocide is wrong", seems like the yeagerists and eren should have simply agreed to let the rest of the world and marley genocide paradis and the eldians (them and their own people/families) for the sake of a higher moral ground or basically follow zeke's defeatist plan of sterilization (sacrificing the capacity to have a family of eldians and future as nation to the will of marley). Seems like most of the fanbase actually would have prefered for the paradis to simply get decimated and bend to marley and the outside world. Obviously genocide is wrong, BUT genocide in retaliation, even if innocent people are killed as a price is not only justifiable in the extreme scenario of attack on titan but it is the safest course of action (the ending in the credits only reinforced that, one can interpret), so it was a reasonable measure. At the end, Marley f-ed around and found out, same with all of those who participated in the hatred and prejudice (naturally people unrelated and that werent like that suffered the consequences as well). Not gonna comment on the whole metaphysics and messy nature of eren's "knowledge" of the past and future and all of that stuff, which was the last straw to make matters worse (the attempt at making the audience sympathize/understand reiner and his crew didnt worked for me neither). I am not here to bash the ending and those that liked it, just to comment on that debate about the rumbling |
INoLuvJul 17, 3:24 PM
riqmoran said: ma1kawa11 said: I was a huge fan of s1 through 3. time slips are awful because a jump between a protagonist having one view to another prevents you from reliably justifying the change visually. it therefore prevents me from suspending by disbelief of the character and becomes a contradiction to their earlier ideals. it also just feels like a cop out to what could have just been better writing. my favorite kinds of stories are tragedies but I am very picky as to what makes a tragedy good. not to derail this, but this is actually one of my big gripes with Vinland Saga's Thorfinn. you spend a lot of time with this whiny, haphazard version of him only to then timeskip to a completely stoic Thorfinn and its just like why did that happen offscreen it's been a while since I watched it but honestly I may have overrated s2 because of this now that I think about it. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
INoLuv said: NeoSchizo said: eren was my most favorite character, that was until i watched the finale, like bro is worse than h*tler Eren's rumbling was justifiable, basically retaliatory genocide (dont forget that marley was already sending titans to paradis for decades, they were already attacking paradis), while hitler's holocaust cannot be justified in any way whatsoever, so it always baffles me when people make such comparisons. When i see the fanbase agreeing with the avengers crew that eren should be stopped because "genocide is wrong", seems like the yeagerists and eren should have simply agreed to let the rest of the world and marley genocide paradis and the eldians (them and their own people/families) for the sake of a higher moral ground or basically follow zeke's defeatist plan of sterilization (sacrificing the capacity to have a family of eldians and future as nation to the will of marley). Seems like most of the fanbase actually would have prefered for the paradis to simply get decimated and bend to marley and the outside world. Obviously genocide is wrong, BUT genocide in retaliation, even if innocent people are killed as a price is not only justifiable in the extreme scenario of attack on titan but it is the safest course of action (the ending in the credits only reinforced that, one can interpret), so it was a reasonable measure. At the end, Marley f-ed around and found out, same with all of those who participated in the hatred and prejudice (naturally people unrelated and that werent like that suffered the consequences as well). Not gonna comment on the whole metaphysics and messy nature of eren's "knowledge" of the past and future and all of that stuff, which was the last straw to make matters worse, i am not here to bash the ending and those that liked it, just to comment on that debate about the rumbling this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts. people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this. attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime. Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
riqmoran said: ma1kawa11 said: if there were interim seasons where it shows Eren coming to the conclusions he did it would've worked much better than it did. it also didn't help that the change In visual design and studios made it not feel like the same show I watched before. also fuck gabi, worst character in the entire show. ok not liking Gabi is a huge red flag. Dare i say media literacy test. she killed my favorite character potato girl i have a right to dislike her. I think having a redemption arc character is fine but I'm still pissed off they killed my fav character in the show. I also dislike that she only was introduced in the final season which means this is some random piece of shit at this point in the story who kills off potato girl... so it just happens and I'm like wtf |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: @ma1kawa11 interesting takes even though i have to disagree. the time skip and his jump in character development made me even more interested in the show and made me want to find out what caused this to happen. and we did find out later on, which felt very rewarding to me. and about gabi: she as well is a well written character just like eren, as she is the mirrored version of him. yes she makes terrible decisions over the course of the series but that makes her well written imo. i said before, you dont have to like a characters personality or agree with their decisions to acknowledge good writing the time skip here is completely mishandled. and I just edited my post about gabi to include more info but essentially introducing her last season is way too late for her to have an impact so it just feels like some random character exists and kills off Sasha and now they expect me to end up liking her by the end of a show.... that's just never going to happen. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
riqmoran said: the thing with Gabi is that she is both a foil to Eren as well as an encapsulation of the entire story's central theme. so to say you dont like her is to say you dont like AoT as a whole and of course part of that is killing Sasha in cold blood. that is a crucial part of her characterization. I dislike the final season after she is introduced yes. I know she is a foil. I think she is a bad foil. if you want a good foil it has to be someone you spend a lot of time with from the beginning of the series. take gon and killua from hxh. and while I am not a fan of berserk guts and griffith are also good character foils. but no, gabi was introduced s4. I am able to appreciate the show before than when she didn't exist. you can't try and force my opinion into this box of having to dislike the entire show just because of the studio mishandling a character that didn't exist for the majority of the series. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
ma1kawa11 said: INoLuv said: Eren's rumbling was justifiable, basically retaliatory genocide (dont forget that marley was already sending titans to paradis for decades, they were already attacking paradis), while hitler's holocaust cannot be justified in any way whatsoever, so it always baffles me when people make such comparisons. When i see the fanbase agreeing with the avengers crew that eren should be stopped because "genocide is wrong", seems like the yeagerists and eren should have simply agreed to let the rest of the world and marley genocide paradis and the eldians (them and their own people/families) for the sake of a higher moral ground or basically follow zeke's defeatist plan of sterilization (sacrificing the capacity to have a family of eldians and future as nation to the will of marley). Seems like most of the fanbase actually would have prefered for the paradis to simply get decimated and bend to marley and the outside world. Obviously genocide is wrong, BUT genocide in retaliation, even if innocent people are killed as a price is not only justifiable in the extreme scenario of attack on titan but it is the safest course of action (the ending in the credits only reinforced that, one can interpret), so it was a reasonable measure. At the end, Marley f-ed around and found out, same with all of those who participated in the hatred and prejudice (naturally people unrelated and that werent like that suffered the consequences as well). Not gonna comment on the whole metaphysics and messy nature of eren's "knowledge" of the past and future and all of that stuff, which was the last straw to make matters worse, i am not here to bash the ending and those that liked it, just to comment on that debate about the rumbling this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts. people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this. attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime. Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die. My comment more than already covers that so i am just going to add: I dont think i said that the rumbling was justifiable just because "eren had an issue with the marlies" and that because of "his issue" it was justifiable for it to happen. From what i remember from the story, the actions marley did take against paradis and thw whole hatred the world felt for paradis wasnt because of "eren's issue" or that the story was a matter of his personal issue. So you dont think the eldians were victims of marley and the world's hatred and that eren was neither, they are just like hitler and the nazis right? ok... |
INoLuvJul 17, 3:37 PM
INoLuv said: ma1kawa11 said: this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts. people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this. attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime. Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die. My comment more than already covers that so i am just going to add: I dont think i said that the rumbling was justifiable just because "eren had an issue with the marlies" and that because of "his issue" it was justifiable for it to happen. From what i remember from the story, the actions marley did take against paradis and thw whole hatred the world felt for paradis wasnt because of "eren's issue" or that the story was a matter of his personal issue. So you dont think the eldians were a victims and that eren was neither, they are just like hitler and the nazis right? ok... I think your comment justifying genocide says enough about you already to the point where I honestly do not need to respond further. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
riqmoran said: i dont see how a character is bad just because it was introduced in the last third of the story. Like what? You can have good characters with limited screentime, good foil characters too. Gabi is a great example of this. she kills off Sasha within the first few episodes of the season. that is not nearly enough time for me to actually begin to care about her as a character. it's just simply bad writing to kill off your main cast with someone like that especially if you somehow want to make some kind of redemption arc from it later. I hate her for the same reason why I hate characters like me from Mirai Nikki or Subaru from rezero. characters who are pieces of shit without redeeming qualities and who commit unredeemable acts only for the writers to attempt to write it all away. I just don't think we will ever agree on this tbh. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: ma1kawa11 said: I dislike the final season after she is introduced yes. I know she is a foil. I think she is a bad foil. if you want a good foil it has to be someone you spend a lot of time with from the beginning of the series. take gon and killua from hxh. and while I am not a fan of berserk guts and griffith are also good character foils. but no, gabi was introduced s4. I am able to appreciate the show before than when she didn't exist. you can't try and force my opinion into this box of having to dislike the entire show just because of the studio mishandling a character that didn't exist for the majority of the series. the show doesnt force you to like her, it tries to show you that anyone can make bad decisions. especially if theyve been victims of propaganda. its sashas father who has all the right to be mad at gabi who actually forgives her. his „get the children out of the forest“-speech is still one of my highlights of the series if you want good examples of characters who make decisions based on propaganda they are exposed to, read books such as brave new worlds, or animal farm. or watch movies such as fiddler on the roof which contains a very realistic portrayal of racial and class divide in Russia. those all do that way better than this tries to. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
Reply to ma1kawa11
INoLuv said:
My comment more than already covers that so i am just going to add: I dont think i said that the rumbling was justifiable just because "eren had an issue with the marlies" and that because of "his issue" it was justifiable for it to happen. From what i remember from the story, the actions marley did take against paradis and thw whole hatred the world felt for paradis wasnt because of "eren's issue" or that the story was a matter of his personal issue.
So you dont think the eldians were a victims and that eren was neither, they are just like hitler and the nazis right? ok...
ma1kawa11 said:
this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts.
people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this.
attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime.
Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die.
this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts.
people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this.
attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime.
Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die.
My comment more than already covers that so i am just going to add: I dont think i said that the rumbling was justifiable just because "eren had an issue with the marlies" and that because of "his issue" it was justifiable for it to happen. From what i remember from the story, the actions marley did take against paradis and thw whole hatred the world felt for paradis wasnt because of "eren's issue" or that the story was a matter of his personal issue.
So you dont think the eldians were a victims and that eren was neither, they are just like hitler and the nazis right? ok...
I think your comment justifying genocide says enough about you already to the point where I honestly do not need to respond further.
| @ma1kawa11 I am surprised you did not call me a nazi, like you did when you compared the eldians inside the wall being attacked through decades by titans sent from marley and that are harsh targets of bigotry by marley and the world to literally the nazis and hitler. But i am not surprised that you completely ignored everything i said on my comment to repeat the overused "genocide is wrong" (which i already agreed on my comment itself) to show your moral high ground in comparison to me. I will end repeating something here: No, the story is not about eren´s "issue" with the marleyans nor did i justified the rumbling because "eren has an issue with them, so rumbling is justified". This right here is what i dislike the most about any debate around AoT, you cant even discuss normally. What is funny is that i didnt even assume anything of the other person but they already are assuming who knows what from me. Oh well |
riqmoran said: So the thing with genocide in AoT is that the author presents a false dichotomy. It's either kill or be killed and there is no in between. So what you then have to do as a reader is ask yourself would you rather be a "good" little eldean who is also dead bc you laid down your weapons, or would you rather be a "bad" eldean who fought back and refused to lay down and die. Obviously theres a middle ground that is being ignored here, which involves Eren not being an utterly incompetent wielder of a power that could in fact be used to kill with higher precision than simply targetting indiscriminately. but no, the author discards this option. thank you, you have explained this better than I would ever be able to. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
INoLuv said: @ma1kawa11 I am surprised you did not call me a nazi, like you did when you compared the eldians inside the wall being attacked through decades by titans sent from marley and that are harsh targets of bigotry by marley and the world to literally the nazis and hitler. But i am not surprised that you completely ignored everything i said on my comment to repeat the overused "genocide is wrong" (which i already agreed on my comment itself) to show your moral high ground in comparison to me. I will end repeating something here: No, the story is not about eren´s "issue" with the marleyans nor did i justified the rumbling because "eren has an issue with them, so rumbling is justified". This right here is what i dislike the most about any debate around AoT, you cant even discuss normally. What is funny is that i didnt even assume anything of the other person but they already are assuming who knows what from me. Oh well the eldian and Marley conflict is a direct comparison to Nazi Germany's Holocaust of the Jews during world war 2... if it were written from hitlers perspective. Hitler attempted to justify genocide by portraying Jewish people as inhumane people who would ultimately destroy themselves. and we'll AoT portrays a society of people who.... it turns out in the final season turn into monsters due to a genetic defect and were quarantined to an island for fear of them destroying the world.... and we'll... apparently the writer in all of his wisdom thought it would be a good idea for Eren, to attempt to destroy the world in a way that confirmed the fears of everyone. I think this is an awful and irresponsible way to handle the topic. and I didn't call you a Nazi because I was trying to be polite as I could with you but holy fuck you aren't helping your case dude. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: ma1kawa11 said: if you want good examples of characters who make decisions based on propaganda they are exposed to, read books such as brave new worlds, or animal farm. or watch movies such as fiddler on the roof which contains a very realistic portrayal of racial and class divide in Russia. those all do that way better than this tries to. no offense but youve given me more than enough reason to believe youre salty because your favorite character died. and now youre trying to cope by calling her murderer a badly written character. there might be other ways to portray this, i do believe you. but that doesnt mean this is a bad way of portraying propaganda I will not deny I am angry they killed my favorite character, but it is more because of how it was done. Also, I do not see how that negates my other criticisms that I made. My all time favorite series is lotgh and my favorite character in that series dies, but in a way that I thought was done well, so I don't mind. so I don't think you can just say that I am just mad that my favorite character died. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: ma1kawa11 said: I will not deny I am angry they killed my favorite character, but it is more because of how it was done. Also, I do not see how that negates my other criticisms that I made. My all time favorite series is lotgh and my favorite character in that series dies, but in a way that I thought was done well, so I don't mind. so I don't think you can just say that I am just mad that my favorite character died. you seem to not like unpredictable story writing. personally i dont like being able to predict the ending after watching the first episode. makes it feel like a waste of time dude another one of my favorite series is serial experiments lain. And I also like surrealist movies like Beau is afraid. I found the last season of AoT to be rather predictable in itself anyway. I think you just want to try and fit me into a box so you can justify ignoring the points I make but whatever lol. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
| oh I also want to point out that even the arguable best character foils in all of fiction: jean val jean and javere, from the novel les miserables, are introduced near the beginning of the novel as well. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
riqmoran said: ma1kawa11 said: oh I also want to point out that even the arguable best character foils in all of fiction: jean val jean and javere, from the novel les miserables, are introduced near the beginning of the novel as well. ok. but another thing you have to consider is it's also commonplace to use a narrative tool where you briefly focus on a character that is a microcosm of the story and (frequently) foreshadows the opposite of the ending. this character doesnt have to be present from the beginning bc part of what they do isreinforce the main theme by mirroring a main character in a more densely packed storyline. if this side character's conclusion is a good ending, then the main character will get the bad ending. and vice versa, if they get the bad ending, then that typically signals a happy ending for the main plot. Gabi is not touched on briefly. she is the pseudo main character of the final season. In my opinion doing what you described (I am sorry but in response via phone it does not let me see your text so I go off of memory) is best suited for something actually brief such as a side character or even a story within a story. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
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