| In episode 38 Tenma is told many times and realises himself that because of who he is he wont be able to shoot Johan so why does he still continue to chase after him for the rest of the series? In episode 62 Tenma learns that Milan wants to kill Capek like how he wants to kill Johan but tells him he mustn't with his only reasoning being that he has a family, he tells the kids they shouldn't seek revenge because revenge begets revenge but he himself still continues on his journey seemingly with the same mindset as Milan, does this mean that Tenma's morality is based on if you have people that rely on you or is that shallow thinking because it seems pointless to follow the perspective of a character who thinks like this as a main character. |
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| Because him and Nina are the main ones who know all of what Johan has done (besides people being used by him and are on his side) and he needs be stopped. Lunge is the closest to knowing as well but he doesn’t even believe he’s real for majority of the time. No one would believe the truth behind everything cuz it’s so damn absurd, and almost impossible to prove. He feels a deep sense of guilt for saving him all those years ago, just for him to turn around and do all that he’s done. It becomes an internal struggle over his morals and philosophy, and feeling responsibility for stopping Johan. He becomes a contradiction of himself. As a doctor he believes he should save anyone he can and that all lives are equal, but he feels responsible for every life Johan takes. He has to because he feels like he’s the only one that can stop him, while not being able to truly put an end to him. He’s not doing it for revenge, but out of a sense of duty that this monster he created needs to be stopped. He doesn’t care if people tell him he won’t be able to, he’s gonna try, if only to avoid sending the people around him down the same path. Nothing about his morality has anything to do with your last sentence. Why do you think Tenma should’ve stopped? What happens with Johan then? He is just allowed to continuously get away with whatever he wants? Tenma knows him the best, and the whole series is a ideological battle between him and Johan. A lot of what he does is with Tenma in mind, stringing him along, trying to prove his ideology of all lives are equal, wrong. Just to be taken out by one of the ants he never truly saw in the end. |
Reply to MusashiKarlsefni
Because him and Nina are the main ones who know all of what Johan has done (besides people being used by him and are on his side) and he needs be stopped. Lunge is the closest to knowing as well but he doesn’t even believe he’s real for majority of the time. No one would believe the truth behind everything cuz it’s so damn absurd, and almost impossible to prove.
He feels a deep sense of guilt for saving him all those years ago, just for him to turn around and do all that he’s done. It becomes an internal struggle over his morals and philosophy, and feeling responsibility for stopping Johan. He becomes a contradiction of himself. As a doctor he believes he should save anyone he can and that all lives are equal, but he feels responsible for every life Johan takes. He has to because he feels like he’s the only one that can stop him, while not being able to truly put an end to him. He’s not doing it for revenge, but out of a sense of duty that this monster he created needs to be stopped. He doesn’t care if people tell him he won’t be able to, he’s gonna try, if only to avoid sending the people around him down the same path. Nothing about his morality has anything to do with your last sentence.
Why do you think Tenma should’ve stopped? What happens with Johan then? He is just allowed to continuously get away with whatever he wants? Tenma knows him the best, and the whole series is a ideological battle between him and Johan. A lot of what he does is with Tenma in mind, stringing him along, trying to prove his ideology of all lives are equal, wrong. Just to be taken out by one of the ants he never truly saw in the end.
He feels a deep sense of guilt for saving him all those years ago, just for him to turn around and do all that he’s done. It becomes an internal struggle over his morals and philosophy, and feeling responsibility for stopping Johan. He becomes a contradiction of himself. As a doctor he believes he should save anyone he can and that all lives are equal, but he feels responsible for every life Johan takes. He has to because he feels like he’s the only one that can stop him, while not being able to truly put an end to him. He’s not doing it for revenge, but out of a sense of duty that this monster he created needs to be stopped. He doesn’t care if people tell him he won’t be able to, he’s gonna try, if only to avoid sending the people around him down the same path. Nothing about his morality has anything to do with your last sentence.
Why do you think Tenma should’ve stopped? What happens with Johan then? He is just allowed to continuously get away with whatever he wants? Tenma knows him the best, and the whole series is a ideological battle between him and Johan. A lot of what he does is with Tenma in mind, stringing him along, trying to prove his ideology of all lives are equal, wrong. Just to be taken out by one of the ants he never truly saw in the end.
| @MusashiKarlsefni I guess my only issue with Monster is that important details like his internal conflict aren't really clearly emphasized as much as they should have been. Tenma does have people like Dr Reichwine and Dr Gillen that believe his story and try their best to help but realistically are just as powerless as he is in stopping Johan. I dont understand why Tenma would know Johan better than Nina for example, or why he stops Nina if she's more resolved than he is. Even the fact that the ending was circular with Tenma doing the operation without even a second thought means that he stuck to his belief that all lives are equal but he has no way of knowing if Johan will immediately go back to killing, is Tenma sticking to his beliefs the point of his character and does he intend to continuously chase Johan if he does kill again? |
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FederalTaxEvader said: @MusashiKarlsefni I guess my only issue with Monster is that important details like his internal conflict aren't really clearly emphasized as much as they should have been. Tenma does have people like Dr Reichwine and Dr Gillen that believe his story and try their best to help but realistically are just as powerless as he is in stopping Johan. I dont understand why Tenma would know Johan better than Nina for example, or why he stops Nina if she's more resolved than he is. Even the fact that the ending was circular with Tenma doing the operation without even a second thought means that he stuck to his belief that all lives are equal but he has no way of knowing if Johan will immediately go back to killing, is Tenma sticking to his beliefs the point of his character and does he intend to continuously chase Johan if he does kill again? @FederalTaxEvader Tenma firmly believes killing is wrong, no matter who it is or what they’ve done. He isn’t going to let someone else do this evil thing just because they’re more resolved about it than he is. In fact he believes it’s wrong to kill Johan pretty much the entire time he’s trying to do it, he just thinks it’s a necessary evil that he doesn’t want to burden anyone else with. The ending is left open to interpretation. I believe Johan doesn’t kill again, though if he did I also think Tenma would look for him to bring him to justice but not kill him. Or let the police handle it, now that they finally know he exists. Because he made the right choice both times. He doesn’t need to take it back. I feel like most questions I’ve seen about Tenma’s actions and motives can be answered, if you can explain one thing: why did Johan WANT Tenma to shoot him? |
Reply to Celox
FederalTaxEvader said:
@MusashiKarlsefni I guess my only issue with Monster is that important details like his internal conflict aren't really clearly emphasized as much as they should have been. Tenma does have people like Dr Reichwine and Dr Gillen that believe his story and try their best to help but realistically are just as powerless as he is in stopping Johan. I dont understand why Tenma would know Johan better than Nina for example, or why he stops Nina if she's more resolved than he is.
Even the fact that the ending was circular with Tenma doing the operation without even a second thought means that he stuck to his belief that all lives are equal but he has no way of knowing if Johan will immediately go back to killing, is Tenma sticking to his beliefs the point of his character and does he intend to continuously chase Johan if he does kill again?
@MusashiKarlsefni I guess my only issue with Monster is that important details like his internal conflict aren't really clearly emphasized as much as they should have been. Tenma does have people like Dr Reichwine and Dr Gillen that believe his story and try their best to help but realistically are just as powerless as he is in stopping Johan. I dont understand why Tenma would know Johan better than Nina for example, or why he stops Nina if she's more resolved than he is.
Even the fact that the ending was circular with Tenma doing the operation without even a second thought means that he stuck to his belief that all lives are equal but he has no way of knowing if Johan will immediately go back to killing, is Tenma sticking to his beliefs the point of his character and does he intend to continuously chase Johan if he does kill again?
@FederalTaxEvader
Tenma firmly believes killing is wrong, no matter who it is or what they’ve done. He isn’t going to let someone else do this evil thing just because they’re more resolved about it than he is. In fact he believes it’s wrong to kill Johan pretty much the entire time he’s trying to do it, he just thinks it’s a necessary evil that he doesn’t want to burden anyone else with.
The ending is left open to interpretation. I believe Johan doesn’t kill again, though if he did I also think Tenma would look for him to bring him to justice but not kill him. Or let the police handle it, now that they finally know he exists. Because he made the right choice both times. He doesn’t need to take it back.
I feel like most questions I’ve seen about Tenma’s actions and motives can be answered, if you can explain one thing: why did Johan WANT Tenma to shoot him?
| @Celox I just find Tenmas thought process confusing. At the end of episode 38 Tenma had already broken his principles that nobody should kill in his own mind as he had already shot Roberto and mentioned that the shaking had stopped, yet he still couldn't shoot Johan even with that and the adrenaline from the whole scenario, why not and why does this not affect his character going forwards in the show? My understanding is that Johan wants to disprove that all lives are equal by making Tenma kill him but doesn't this prove that Tenma may regard Johan's life to be worth more than Roberto or something? |
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| @FederalTaxEvader Imo shooting someone instinctively in immediate self-defense is not remotely equivalent to shooting an unarmed nonhostile person in cold blood. And valuing human life doesn’t disallow you from protecting yourself. |
FederalTaxEvader said: Tenma didn't shoot Roberto the same way he's trying to do with Johan where it was instinctive and self-defense so he'd come out clean whether morally or legally all the more so with the guy apparently surviving it.I just find Tenmas thought process confusing. At the end of episode 38 Tenma had already broken his principles that nobody should kill in his own mind as he had already shot Roberto and mentioned that the shaking had stopped, yet he still couldn't shoot Johan even with that and the adrenaline from the whole scenario, why not and why does this not affect his character going forwards in the show? As for his shaking hand that had stopped, well, remember Johan's Landscape of the End that Tenma "saw"  which pretty much symbolises the emptiness and coldness in Johan's character and one of the ways we can interpret it is here he's telling Tenma that once you start killing someone that's what you'll become, whether slowly or immediately. Like me. And that if you kill me you've become no different from me. The shaking hand that had stopped means exactly that - Tenma becoming or at the very least one step into becoming a "Monster" like Johan.FederalTaxEvader said: Tenma not shooting Johan the way he did Roberto doesn't necessarily mean he regards Johan's life above Roberto's but does Tenma having saved his life and knowing his background more than Roberto makes him care about Johan more than Roberto? Maybe.My understanding is that Johan wants to disprove that all lives are equal by making Tenma kill him but doesn't this prove that Tenma may regard Johan's life to be worth more than Roberto or something? |
TRC_RandyJan 2, 1:47 AM
Celox said: Imo shooting someone instinctively in immediate self-defense is not remotely equivalent to shooting an unarmed nonhostile person in cold blood. And valuing human life doesn’t disallow you from protecting yourself. Surely then there are more options than just killing him like incapacitating him by shooting his legs or something and because he's a doctor he should know the places to avoid. It just makes his 5 month gun training pointless because he just ends up pointing it at everyone instead of actually using it ever but at least it was another opportunity to see him helping random people which I can appreciate. TRC_Randy said: As for his shaking hand that had stopped, well, remember Johan's Landscape of the End that Tenma "saw" which pretty much symbolises the emptiness and coldness in Johan's character and one of the ways we can interpret it is here he's telling Tenma that once you start killing someone that's what you'll become, whether slowly or immediately. Like me. And that if you kill me you've become no different from me. The shaking hand that had stopped means exactly that - Tenma becoming or at the very least one step into becoming a "Monster" like Johan. This is another issue I have with the narrative of Monster. Whilst I agree that stories can have elements of interpretation to encourage deeper thought and discussion into these philosophical themes, I feel that overall Urasawa left too many important plot related point to be vague for 'interpretation'. Like that landscape scene I'm pretty sure was directly referenced by General Wolf describing it as a world without names which Johan wanted to create for himself to erase all memory of himself from the world for the perfect suicide like the Johan in the picture book, rather than the emptiness because he sees himself as a monster but I think this is just as plausible as an explanation because of how little we are told as viewers. Reading various interpretations of different parts of the story definitely helps with making sense of the story after finishing the anime, such as understanding more about Johan and his actions as he gets practically 0 screen time even as the main antagonist and the information given in the show seems to contradict itself at times (e.g. Nina saying near the beginning of the show that Johan is 2 people but this wasn't ever explained) but I just wish Urasawa added these interpretations directly into the show rather than left for the viewing community to just 'fill in the blanks' almost writing the story for him, to the point where the final episode just leaves me with more questions and an unsatisfying conclusion unlike other shows of similar genres. Overall its hard to appreciate the decisions of characters in the show on its own because of these writing decisions. |
FederalTaxEvaderJan 3, 3:32 AM
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Reply to FederalTaxEvader
Celox said:
Imo shooting someone instinctively in immediate self-defense is not remotely equivalent to shooting an unarmed nonhostile person in cold blood. And valuing human life doesn’t disallow you from protecting yourself.
Imo shooting someone instinctively in immediate self-defense is not remotely equivalent to shooting an unarmed nonhostile person in cold blood. And valuing human life doesn’t disallow you from protecting yourself.
Surely then there are more options than just killing him like incapacitating him by shooting his legs or something and because he's a doctor he should know the places to avoid. It just makes his 5 month gun training pointless because he just ends up pointing it at everyone instead of actually using it ever but at least it was another opportunity to see him helping random people which I can appreciate.
TRC_Randy said:
As for his shaking hand that had stopped, well, remember Johan's Landscape of the End that Tenma "saw"
which pretty much symbolises the emptiness and coldness in Johan's character and one of the ways we can interpret it is here he's telling Tenma that once you start killing someone that's what you'll become, whether slowly or immediately. Like me. And that if you kill me you've become no different from me. The shaking hand that had stopped means exactly that - Tenma becoming or at the very least one step into becoming a "Monster" like Johan.
As for his shaking hand that had stopped, well, remember Johan's Landscape of the End that Tenma "saw"
which pretty much symbolises the emptiness and coldness in Johan's character and one of the ways we can interpret it is here he's telling Tenma that once you start killing someone that's what you'll become, whether slowly or immediately. Like me. And that if you kill me you've become no different from me. The shaking hand that had stopped means exactly that - Tenma becoming or at the very least one step into becoming a "Monster" like Johan.
This is another issue I have with the narrative of Monster. Whilst I agree that stories can have elements of interpretation to encourage deeper thought and discussion into these philosophical themes, I feel that overall Urasawa left too many important plot related point to be vague for 'interpretation'.
Like that landscape scene I'm pretty sure was directly referenced by General Wolf describing it as a world without names which Johan wanted to create for himself to erase all memory of himself from the world for the perfect suicide like the Johan in the picture book, rather than the emptiness because he sees himself as a monster but I think this is just as plausible as an explanation because of how little we are told as viewers.
Reading various interpretations of different parts of the story definitely helps with making sense of the story after finishing the anime, such as understanding more about Johan and his actions as he gets practically 0 screen time even as the main antagonist and the information given in the show seems to contradict itself at times (e.g. Nina saying near the beginning of the show that Johan is 2 people but this wasn't ever explained) but I just wish Urasawa added these interpretations directly into the show rather than left for the viewing community to just 'fill in the blanks' almost writing the story for him, to the point where the final episode just leaves me with more questions and an unsatisfying conclusion unlike other shows of similar genres. Overall its hard to appreciate the decisions of characters in the show on its own because of these writing decisions.
| @FederalTaxEvader oh I think I can see the main problem you're having is with Johan where his character isn't "explained". Well, NO, his character IS actually explained. You just missed the tiny and subtle storytelling like most people including me. The first time I finished Monster I thought the ending sucked and Johan's character was kinda ambiguously nonsensical which I couldn't be more wrong. You might wanna watch this explanation video which should cover the key things that you need to know about him but I do wanna say that with Monster to fully appreciate it you'd have to look at why the show is titled "Monster" itfp which is by looking at all the significant storytelling aspects of the show and then tying them all together but almost everyone doesn't do that unfortunately. I mean things like Johan being two people or the Landscape being what Gen Wolf described are very superficial understanding of the whole thing. Look at the WHOLE picture rather. Actually I was in the middle of writing my response these few days which was way longer but upon reading your reply again I was like "oh I see, gotta pull that video up again". |
Reply to FederalTaxEvader
Celox said:
Imo shooting someone instinctively in immediate self-defense is not remotely equivalent to shooting an unarmed nonhostile person in cold blood. And valuing human life doesn’t disallow you from protecting yourself.
Imo shooting someone instinctively in immediate self-defense is not remotely equivalent to shooting an unarmed nonhostile person in cold blood. And valuing human life doesn’t disallow you from protecting yourself.
Surely then there are more options than just killing him like incapacitating him by shooting his legs or something and because he's a doctor he should know the places to avoid. It just makes his 5 month gun training pointless because he just ends up pointing it at everyone instead of actually using it ever but at least it was another opportunity to see him helping random people which I can appreciate.
TRC_Randy said:
As for his shaking hand that had stopped, well, remember Johan's Landscape of the End that Tenma "saw"
which pretty much symbolises the emptiness and coldness in Johan's character and one of the ways we can interpret it is here he's telling Tenma that once you start killing someone that's what you'll become, whether slowly or immediately. Like me. And that if you kill me you've become no different from me. The shaking hand that had stopped means exactly that - Tenma becoming or at the very least one step into becoming a "Monster" like Johan.
As for his shaking hand that had stopped, well, remember Johan's Landscape of the End that Tenma "saw"
which pretty much symbolises the emptiness and coldness in Johan's character and one of the ways we can interpret it is here he's telling Tenma that once you start killing someone that's what you'll become, whether slowly or immediately. Like me. And that if you kill me you've become no different from me. The shaking hand that had stopped means exactly that - Tenma becoming or at the very least one step into becoming a "Monster" like Johan.
This is another issue I have with the narrative of Monster. Whilst I agree that stories can have elements of interpretation to encourage deeper thought and discussion into these philosophical themes, I feel that overall Urasawa left too many important plot related point to be vague for 'interpretation'.
Like that landscape scene I'm pretty sure was directly referenced by General Wolf describing it as a world without names which Johan wanted to create for himself to erase all memory of himself from the world for the perfect suicide like the Johan in the picture book, rather than the emptiness because he sees himself as a monster but I think this is just as plausible as an explanation because of how little we are told as viewers.
Reading various interpretations of different parts of the story definitely helps with making sense of the story after finishing the anime, such as understanding more about Johan and his actions as he gets practically 0 screen time even as the main antagonist and the information given in the show seems to contradict itself at times (e.g. Nina saying near the beginning of the show that Johan is 2 people but this wasn't ever explained) but I just wish Urasawa added these interpretations directly into the show rather than left for the viewing community to just 'fill in the blanks' almost writing the story for him, to the point where the final episode just leaves me with more questions and an unsatisfying conclusion unlike other shows of similar genres. Overall its hard to appreciate the decisions of characters in the show on its own because of these writing decisions.
FederalTaxEvader said: Surely then there are more options than just killing him like incapacitating him by shooting his legs or something and because he's a doctor he should know the places to avoid. Yes, which is why he knows the "places to avoid" is literally just everywhere. There is no safe place to shoot someone, ever. Aiming for the legs or whatever, is not only far more likely to miss, if it does hit you're still very likely to kill them. There is no reason to fire or even point a gun at someone unless you're willing to kill them, period. |
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