The unconvincing altruism of the Avengers

deg said:
you have a point that is why i think the avengers reasoning is weak against the genocide justification of eren and yeagerists because its for their friends and survival of their nation at least while the avengers only said genocide is wrong without much elaboration as to why

so ye this manga is full on genocide justification and how heroic it is so it left a bad feeling for me

and the heroic genocide justification has cool lines too like
"i keep moving forward until all my enemies are destroyed"
"if we kill all our enemies then will we be free?"


honestly if the avengers just say they are full on utilitarian like believing the end justifies the means, necessary evil, the greatest good for the greatest number motto that would be enough justification for them to stop world genocide imo and it will also justify the seems immoral sacrifices they made about their dead comrades but no we never heard of such reasoning from them

Cruicruise said:
Because it’s their freaking Island, their friends, their families. Some of them are still alive and a whole lot gave away their life to defend it from the people they’re allied with right now. How the fuck can you turn on them when it matters most?! That’s disgusting to me.

PlatypusPrince16 said:

“The avengers say genocide is wrong without much elaboration as to why”

I know this isn’t what you meant but what a crazy quote 😂

In my eyes, Hange’s scene in Night of the End is the perfect explanation of the remaining scouts and alliance’s morals. “Genocide is wrong, no matter what!”
Imo, this is all the explanation that’s needed. It’s simple and straight to the point and perfectly shows how our characters aren’t willing to go so far as massacring all of humanity to save the island.

The scouts mission statement has always been about the pursuit of knowledge and the survival of humanity, Eren’s genocide is directly opposed to that, it seeks to destroy humanity and all cultures and knowledge beyond the island. The alliance are never portrayed as morally righteous, after all most of them were fine with a limited rumbling to wipe out Marley’s military forces, they were ok with sacrificing the few to suit the needs of the many which is in line with Erwin’s philosophy as a commander as well. Eren’s full scale rumbling is something they never wanted and is against everything they stand for, it makes perfect sense they’d try to stop him.

The series is never pro genocide because rather than justifying why genocide is bad, it says in clear, certain terms “genocide is wrong, no matter what” and then shows the cruelty and horrific nature of the rumbling with visuals. If people still think the series supports genocide or provides no reason for the alliance to oppose Eren after seeing the destruction that the rumbling brings, then that’s just fucking insane.

PlatypusPrince16 said:

This type of reasoning is just straight up nationalistic which is so against what the story is about

deg said:


the majority of fans supporting Eren is indeed insane and its thanks to the whole writing of Isayama justifying genocide as heroic so to them Eren is a hero doing the rumbling

youre in denial if you do not see how this fans support Eren

Cruicruise said:

You don’t understand Human nature

PlatypusPrince16 said:

I disagree Isayama portrays genocide as heroic. I think 131 is quite clear how cruel and messed up Eren has become. We see how horrific the rumbling is first hand, killing innocent children and the chapter even shows how Eren’s own, deep rooted personal reason for wanting to wipe out the world is incredibly childish. His childish idea of what the outside world would be left him disappointed when it wasn’t what he imagined and so he wanted to wipe it all away, calling the views and scenery created by the Rumbling “freedom” while as a child to show how immature and childish Eren really is. The anime reinforces this even more with the OST making the scene tragic and somber, and also cutting back to the devastated ground while Eren talks about how this was the view they’d always hoped for. Shits messed and I think this does an effective job in making sure readers understand that the Rumbling isn’t heroic or victorious but horrifying and childish.

Now if your talking about a certain line from the final chapter I would agree with you. While I understand the intention behind it I think the wording is incredibly poorly chosen and hopefully is changed for the anime. But I don’t think it erases the lengths Isayama went through before to make the Rumbling as horrific and horrible as possible.

LeftoverToast said:
One reason I couldn't get behind the Avengers' decision to save the world, why it felt like it out of place for them, was that the scouts were always sort of morally shady back in the Survey Corps arcs. So many times they were forced to make harsh decisions in order to ensure their victory "for humanity"

The 57th expedition back in S1 was secretly to lure out a Titan traitor, and it killed many unknowing scouts in the process. They are lied to and essentially used as bait to make the expedition look legit.

They threw off the bodies of the dead from the carts because they were slowing them down against Titans chasing them

They had Annie and Eren fight in Stohess which fkin wrecked the district and killed over a hundred people. Children included of course. (And I'm sure they felt bad about it but did the cadets ever acknowledge how fucked that was)

Erwin sent a bunch of scouts to their death to retrieve Eren from Reiner

Levi and Hanger tortured Sannes pretty brutally to get information on the Reiss

The fuckin suicide charge

Like, these guys could do bad things if they felt it was justifiable, their justification being "for humanity"

Now they're super good guys who can't imagine the thought of having enemies and dealing with them through violence. Like somehow having a dialogue with the entire world who's brainwashed by a thousand+ years of hatred is easier than having a dialogue with the royal government on why the Survey Corps should be allowed to explore beyond the walls and progress. Nah instead we're gonna usurp them.

And it's kind of funny how undoing a thousand+ years of hatred through conversation is seen as easier than trying to undo the vow to renounce war instilled by one guy through similar means. Rod tried and it didn't work. If that was about treatment towards Eldians/Paradisians, Hange would've just said "Erm well we gotta keep trying"

Either ways, my point is the alliance being such goody goodies in the last arcs just feels slyly ooc, especially Hange and Armin. The "humanity" fought for war the island, I don't get why that goalpost had to change. Because they drank alcohol together?

And I don't think it's good to try justify bad actions with numbers. "Indirectly killing a billion people is unacceptable. Indirectly killing a hundred people (Stohess), meh." You're both pretty fucking villainous 

deg said:


the majority of fans supporting Eren is indeed insane and its thanks to the whole writing of Isayama justifying genocide as heroic so to them Eren is a hero doing the rumbling

youre in denial if you do not see how this fans support Eren

deg said:




see? he is just following his nature or instinct no good reasoning at all the whole point of the genocide justification is that following his instinctive desire but the eren fans still see that as heroic

isayama failed to deliver a balance between alliance vs eren group right at the very ending chapter

Animaticide said:
They were in on the idea of a partial rumbling as part of a retaliatory military pre-emptive strike, not the total annihilation of every single life form outside the walls. Did you forget Armin was excited when he thought Eren was still on their side after all the backhanded betrayals of trust right after he activated the Rumbling? Paying attention pays huge dividends sometimes.

And yeah, they are both pretty fucking villainous, they haven't stopped mentioning how fucking evil everyone has been driven to become given the cards they have been dealt. They don't even fault Eren for going to such extremes, it's just that they have a limit of just how far they would be willing to take it and he took it way past that point.

PlatypusPrince16 said:
Never at any point in the show do they try to portray the alliance as the good guys who are morally righteous. They reiterate time and time again that they have done fucked up shit constantly again and again, it’s just there’s a line most humans aren’t willing to cross and genocide is that line. Night of the End is an entire episode dedicated to exploring how the characters feel including Jean who wasn’t even sure if he wanted to stop Eren. The only thing the show does is make sure you realise genocide is wrong and that compared to literally eradicating every single life form on the planet, the alliance are better but they’ve still done awful, irredeemable shit

Cruicruise said:
I think Isayama kind of wrote himself into a corner when he started the Rumbling at this point in the story. The Alliance had to happen to keep the plot moving and still give them relevancy but that's just not realistic behaviour. In AOT's setting, "geneocide is bad" is not a good enough reason to betray the homeland, friends and families they've so desperately fought for their whole life. What they obviously should have done was wait on Paradis while Eren did his thing but that's not the best content material I guess. 

PlatypusPrince16 said:

We know in that line Eren is lying he literally said the reason he would’ve done it anyways in 131, he was disappointed. Your right fans see everything Eren does as heroic but as I said before I don’t think this is Isayama’s fault. I think he made it very clear within the story that genocide is ultimately wrong, Eren is immature and childish and is no hero he’s just a fucked up kid given too much power.

The fact people still defend him and his actions is for reasons that go outside of the actual text and subtext of the story, it’s just a byproduct of a lack of media literacy and a growing acceptance of fascist ideals that cause people to twist the themes of the story. It’s not Isayama’s fault people started to go mask off with their fascism.

Aziz_Iso said:

Falsely said, I will assume that you are truly unaware of Eren’s reasoning.


Eren was disappointed that humanity has left him (and his people) behind.

Eren was disappointed that the world is keen to murdering him (and his people) for no reason. Should he depart to a separate tiny island, they would still come after him.

Eren was disappointed that the very uninterested in peace. Had they done so, it would be a fulfilling solution. No need to FIGHT.


Contrary to his envision, the outside world is too grim, dark, and DISAPPOINTING.

Aziz_Iso said:

There is a brutal misunderstanding here.

Eren is NOT buying time indefinitely, Eren is bringing an ultimate solution. The world is utterly uninterested in peace, it’s a delusional hope, and time is clocking, Eren has only 4 more years. S4 E10, remember?

LeftoverToast said:
One reason I couldn't get behind the Avengers' decision to save the world, why it felt like it out of place for them, was that the scouts were always sort of morally shady back in the Survey Corps arcs. So many times they were forced to make harsh decisions in order to ensure their victory "for humanity"

The 57th expedition back in S1 was secretly to lure out a Titan traitor, and it killed many unknowing scouts in the process. They are lied to and essentially used as bait to make the expedition look legit.

They threw off the bodies of the dead from the carts because they were slowing them down against Titans chasing them

They had Annie and Eren fight in Stohess which fkin wrecked the district and killed over a hundred people. Children included of course. (And I'm sure they felt bad about it but did the cadets ever acknowledge how fucked that was)

Erwin sent a bunch of scouts to their death to retrieve Eren from Reiner

Levi and Hanger tortured Sannes pretty brutally to get information on the Reiss

The fuckin suicide charge

Like, these guys could do bad things if they felt it was justifiable, their justification being "for humanity". Yes, with a heavy heart, but they saw it through

Now they're super good guys who can't imagine the thought of having enemies and dealing with them through violence. Like somehow having a dialogue with the entire world who's brainwashed by a thousand+ years of hatred is easier than having a dialogue with the royal government on why the Survey Corps should be allowed to explore beyond the walls and progress. Nah instead we're gonna usurp them.

And it's kind of funny how undoing a thousand+ years of hatred through conversation is seen as easier than trying to undo the vow to renounce war instilled by one guy through similar means. Rod tried and it didn't work. If that was about treatment towards Eldians/Paradisians, Hange would've just said "Erm well we gotta keep trying"

Either ways, my point is the alliance being such goody goodies in the last arcs just feels slyly ooc, especially Hange and Armin. The "humanity" fought for war the island, I don't get why that goalpost had to change. Because they drank alcohol together?

And I don't think it's good to try justify bad actions with numbers. "Indirectly killing a billion people is unacceptable. Indirectly killing a hundred people (Stohess), meh." You're both pretty fucking villainous