Who is to blame?

Baka_Nima456 said:
Well...if I have to blame someone for her sufferings...then I would say..:

1..Tokiomi Tohsaka
I would give him the initial blame ...just because he is her Father...and due to his obsession towards winning the holy grail, he chose the strongest among his two children aa the successor for the Tohsaka family...but Rin was chosen over Sakura...and according to their rules, there should be only one child as a successor...unfortunately for sakura, she was forced to change family because of that silly reason...that's where her sufferings embarked...

2.Matou Zouken
Who else, none other than the head of the matou family himself.let's remember something before we go further(matou family already had a successor named matou kariya, a man who left the matou family Before the event due to the intense and brutal training the matou family has)...because of kuriya leaving it gave them a chance to have Sakura as a successor from the Tohsaka family.After that,she suffered her 7 to 8 years of her life under the matou family lead by zouken.she not only suffered through the training but the abuse she got from her half brother shinji every time.

3.Kotomine Kirie
Well, he should be included..right??..
Remember during the first movie of the trilogy..she suffered a fatal damage at the school when she was like kidnapped by her brother shinji...she lost control of her power that she hurt everyone within her sorrounding including herself...and kotomine treated her wounds..and now at the final movie..koromine plans to bring the 8th servant which was inside the great holy grail.and to make that happen he needed a vessel..so..during the first movie, when kotomine treated her he like put the vessel inside her body so that the ritual can be completed and during the process sakura will disappear...that was his plan all along and he reveals that plan when he gets killed by Sakura herself..


That's what i think about it..well, her transfroming into dark Sakura and the whole situation of the shadow stared with Matou zouken himself...he used Sakura as toy for his wish...and that wish is to live forever or should I say get a new body for himself to live...

ssjokg said:
Kirei didnt do anything other than keeping her alive.He didnt put anything inside.

You can make a case that killing her would have made it better for her.

Baka_Nima456 said:
well, to be precise He did keep her alive all this time so as to use her as a vessel to bring the 8th servant which was inside the great holy grail..

Baka_Nima456 said:
well, to be precise He did keep her alive all this time so as to use her as a vessel to bring the 8th servant which was inside the great holy grail..if not girl it helps could have killed Sakura already

Baka_Nima456 said:
well, to be precise He did keep her alive all this time so as to use her as a vessel to bring the 8th servant which was inside the great holy grail..

ssjokg said:
Well that would happen anyway.

Mummykun said:
Only Zouken and Shinji are really to blame. Shinji for raping Sakura, and Zouken for making worms "rape" Sakura, and many other things like that.

Tokiomi is a bit to blame because he sent Sakura to Zouken's house without doing enough research to know what kind of person Zouken really was. But hey, he was a human being too, so he wasn't perfect.

Emblemz said:
Literally just Zouken. Everyone else made contributions to her suffering of varying degrees but Zouken calls her his guinea pig. Remove Zouken and all her issues suddenly go away.

ssjokg said:

The only reason he picked them was for being one of the 3 families. The only reason he would regret this is if he found out that Sakura wasnt actually trained. If she suffered the same abuse but was trained, it wouldnt be an issue.

And the idea that it is not only fine but a trophy if if his daughters try to kill each other makes the whole thing irrelevant.

Tokiomi is well versed and knows the Matou family.

What Shinji did is deplorable but I doubt it is what made her like this.His actions only started 2 years ago. She was already broken.

I am not sure what Rin and Shirou would be able to do and if it would even end up in a positive result.

Mummykun said:

Those are just your inferences. The part about him picking Zouken just because it was one of the 3 families makes sense, but I really have to disagree with the part about Tokiomi not caring about whether or not his daughter was abused. Just seeing how Rin loved her father makes it quite clear that he wasn't such a cold hearted man, and I'm quite sure he would have done something to stop it if he found out what was happening with Sakura in Zouken's house. This is also just my inference, yes, but Tokiomi really seems like a person with basic human common sense, so it's hard to believe that he would allow his daughter to be tortured with worms.

Fate/Zero material - Encyclopedia: Tohsaka Rin [Person's name], p.101-102R

The eldest daughter of Tohsaka Tokiomi. The younger years of one of the heroines of Fate.
10 years ago, Rin’s understanding of the Holy Grail War was about equal to that of Shirou’s during the Fifth War. That is, it seemed like she understood but she really did not.
In the eyes of young Rin, her father Tokiomi was a great magus who must be respected and loved, but as for the coldheartedness that accompanied the ideal, that was a negative aspect of his personality that she failed to understand.
If Tokiomi had survived until the time when Rin could have really understood her father’s personality, it would certainly have deeply affected the development of her own personality. Whether she would oppose that inhumanity and leave the path of thaumaturgy, or whether she would become a “perfect and coldhearted” witch like her father – no matter which one, this parallel world, for Rin, would certainly be one far away from happiness.

Epitanime 2013 interview with Gen Urobuchi
TMF : Did Tokiomi know what Sakura was going through after she was adopted by MATŌ?

U : What is important for Tokiomi is not filiation but magical progression in his family. So he is aware of literally throwing his daughter. One can imagine that Tokiomi tells himself that, through his darling daughter, he will come to have superior thaumaturgical powers.

[Off interview]
Tokiomi knew what Sakura was going to suffer, but for him, it would allow him to become a real mage. As long as it increased the thaumaturgical potential of his family, he had no problem with Sakura's treatments at MATŌ. However, if he had known Sakura's fate, to be a matrix for Zōken, he would have refused. He also imagined that if things went too far, Sakura could stop Zōken by herself. Unconsciously, even if he never said it, the fight between Sakura and Rin at the end of Heaven's Feel was for him the best thing that could happen to TŌSAKA.
Aoi, on the other hand, knew nothing.

Mummykun said:
In a normal human sense, yes, I agree with you that it's fucked up for Tokiomi not to see a problem in the possibility of his daughters killing themselves in the future,

Mummykun said:

Maybe just not quite enough to know that Sakura would be tortured and have her body abused with insects. Like I said, Zouken did have enough social skills to sound like a sympathetic old man if he wanted to, so believing that Tokiomi sent Sakura to Zouken knowing fully well just how bad was Zouken is not a fair judgement.
And his explanation gave the impression that sending her to the Matou house was his last resort.
You mentioned the Edelfelts... but what do we know about the Edelfelts? And how much did Tokiomi know about the Edelfelts? Could Tokiomi really be sure that Sakura wouldn't suffer more if she were sent to the Edelfelts? Would the Edelfelts even accept Sakura?
Yeah, sure, Zouken looks very suspicious with that monstrous look, so Tokiomi's choice was really bad. But it's clearly an exaggeration to put Tokiomi on the same level of Zouken or Shinji. Tokiomi never raped his daughter, and never tortured her with worms, so, come on...

Mummykun said:

Whether or not she was already broken before Shinji started raping her is a different matter. But 2 years are already a lot of time, and being raped and treated like a sex doll is definitely terrible. I voted for Zouken, but I honestly believe that what Shinji did was almost just as bad as what Zouken did. Those are two different kinds of evil, but still great evils that made Sakura suffer a lot.

Mummykun said:

In fact, Shirou would probably be killed by Zouken, and then Sakura's happy times with him would be over.
Rin, on the other hand, could have asked for help from the majutsu kyoukai or the Church, though. She was always in contact with Kirei, so it wouldn't be so hard.

Mummykun said:
Tokiomi is a bit to blame because he sent Sakura to Zouken's house without doing enough research to know what kind of person Zouken really was. But hey, he was a human being too, so he wasn't perfect. I don't know if I would have been able to make a better choice if I were in his place. Just like Zouken spoke like a sympathetic old man when he met Shirou for the first time, he could have seem to be friendly enough towards Tokiomi to make Tokiomi trust him enough. Sometimes it's hard to know how people are in their private lives. From his point of view, he could have sent Sakura to another house instead of Zouken's, and that could be a mistake. He decided to bet on Zouken, and his bet just happened to be a bad one.

Still, ignorance is a sin, so he is still partially to blame, but definitely not in the same way that Zouken and Shinji are to blame. It's not like he did something intentionally evil to make Sakura suffer in a direct way.

And, to a certain extent, the same can be said about Shirou and Rin. Shirou because Sakura was frequenting his house for a year and a half, and he didn't have enough balls to enquiry about her house matters, even though he knew that Shinji mistreated her. And Rin because she didn't do enough research to make sure that her sister was living well with Zouken. The difference here is the level of their responsibilities. Tokiomi was Sakura's father, so he had more moral responsibility towards the welfare of his daughter, while Rin was just a girl who was already having her own problems living alone without her parents, and Shirou didn't even have any blood connection with Sakura, and wasn't even quite her boyfriend yet.
Kariya tried to do something to help Sakura, but his problem was his jealousy towards Tokiomi, which made him not have the discernment that the best thing he could do after finding out what was happening to Sakura would be to tell it to Tokiomi and Aoi, which probably would have made things end differently.