| Dictionaries serve as an explanation of culture. Not a lawmaker. It is the people who define words, not the dictionaries. I am arguing not from my opinion of the word, but from what the word is turning into. If you were to ask gelbooru and multiple other sites what a loli was, an age, or a body type. They would say it is a body type. A definition is what people agree upon. Lyuze said: Whether you like it or not, the current definitions of loli and lolicon are explicitly related to the sexualization of young/prepubescent girls. That definition may change in the future, none of us can predict that. The definition has already changed to mean much more than that. |
| Yes there is a large difference. Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent girls. Liking petite body types means you're attracted to people of age that look young. Attraction isn't a purely physical thing. There's a reason taboo fetishes like incest are so well loved. |
FairyTechnology said: Being short or tall has nothing to do with being a child or an adult. There are tall children and also short adults. Boob size has to do with fat and fat distribution, although age does play a part it is not the only determining factor.DrGeroCreation said: Rukia has no childlike features at all, she is just short and petite. Lolis to me were always little girl characters not female characters that are short and flat chested. Um, I don't know how to say this. But being short and flat chested are childlike features. It's possible for adult women to have childlike features like that. |
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Lyuze said: Yes there is a large difference. Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent girls. Liking petite body types means you're attracted to people of age that look young. Lolicon is an umbrella term that means both of these things. DrGeroCreation said: Being short or tall has nothing to do with being a child or an adult. But, it does have everything to do with being a loli or not. |
FairyTechnology said: No it doesn't.But, it does have everything to do with being a loli or not. |
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FairyTechnology said: Lyuze said: Yes there is a large difference. Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent girls. Liking petite body types means you're attracted to people of age that look young. Lolicon is an umbrella term that means both of these things. DrGeroCreation said: Being short or tall has nothing to do with being a child or an adult. But, it does have everything to do with being a loli or not. The word lolicon is literally taken from a novel about a middle aged man boning his 12 year old step daughter. I'm sorry but I trust the roots of the word itself far more than I do a bunch of horny retards lurking on Gelbooru. |
Lyuze said: The word lolicon is literally taken from a novel about a middle aged man boning his 12 year old step daughter. Indeed it is. And it also turned into a word describing a fashion style in Japan. Words do change, after all. Should people who dress in Lolita fashion, change the word they use to describe their style and their subculture? |
FairyTechnology said: The thing is loli has not changed to mean only short female characters.Lyuze said: The word lolicon is literally taken from a novel about a middle aged man boning his 12 year old step daughter. Indeed it is. And it also turned into a word describing a fashion style in Japan. Words do change, after all. |
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DrGeroCreation said: The thing is loli has not changed to mean only short female characters. For a large portion of people who use the term, I believe it has. |
FairyTechnology said: Who are these people? Besides you I don't know anyone else who thinks short female character automatically = loli.DrGeroCreation said: The thing is loli has not changed to mean only short female characters. For a large portion of people who use the term, I believe it has. |
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FairyTechnology said: Lyuze said: The word lolicon is literally taken from a novel about a middle aged man boning his 12 year old step daughter. Indeed it is. And it also turned into a word describing a fashion style in Japan. Words do change, after all. Should people who dress in Lolita fashion, change the word they use to describe their style and their subculture? Words can alter (although that's completely different to the concept of words evolving) depending on context. If someone brings up lolita during a discussion about fashion, it's clear that they're referring to the fashion style and not the novel. If they bring up the word "lolicon" in context to a discussion about the ethics of lolicon media then the discussion is obviously going to be using the literal definition of lolicon. |
DrGeroCreation said: Who are these people? Besides you I don't know anyone else who thinks short female character automatically = loli. Just about everyone who identifies as a lolicon on an anime site, to be honest. Lyuze said: If they bring up the word "lolicon" in context to a discussion about the ethics of lolicon media then the discussion is obviously going to be using the literal definition of lolicon. But both the sexual and the fashion aspects have come from that original book. And both of them can change. I think that saying that attraction to a childlike body, such as short and flat chested, is not the same as lolicon. Is kind of like saying that Gothic Lolita isn't Lolita. |
FairyTechnologyJan 5, 2015 4:41 PM
FairyTechnology said: I have never heard guys like Haxx, Humly, Hoppy etc. ever say that.DrGeroCreation said: Who are these people? Besides you I don't know anyone else who thinks short female character automatically = loli. Just about everyone who identifies as a lolicon on an anime site, to be honest. |
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FairyTechnology said: DrGeroCreation said: Who are these people? Besides you I don't know anyone else who thinks short female character automatically = loli. Just about everyone who identifies as a lolicon on an anime site, to be honest. Lyuze said: If they bring up the word "lolicon" in context to a discussion about the ethics of lolicon media then the discussion is obviously going to be using the literal definition of lolicon. But both the sexual and the fashion aspects have come from that original book. And both of them can change. I think that saying that attraction to a childlike body, such as short and flat chested, is not the same as lolicon. Is kind of like saying that Gothic Lolita isn't Lolita. I'm fairly certain that anybody who openly identifies as a lolicon will do almost anything to make others think their fetish for prepubescent girls isnt so bad. I'm repeating myself again, attraction is more than just a physical thing. There is a large difference both physically and mentally between a mature but physically petite woman and a prepubescent girl. |
| LOL two pages later and Fairy still thinks characters like Rukia are loli. Loli is trash |
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Lyuze said: I'm fairly certain that anybody who openly identifies as a lolicon will do almost anything to make others think their fetish for prepubescent girls isnt so bad. Probably so. Though there is an overlap. A lot of people who identify as lolicon don't care about age, even though they should. If a character has a body type they like, they don't feel very concerned about age. I feel like the adult loli thing is becoming more popular, not just because "it's an excuse" to get out of trouble or something. But because it makes many people feel less guilty. Lyuze said: There is a large difference both physically and mentally between a mature but physically petite woman and a prepubescent girl. Adult loli is also a very popular term. And adult loli is supposed to mean petite, not prepubescent. It's a really common word that people use. I kind of want to be an adult loli, myself. There aren't enough safe surgeries for that yet, though. Most older women struggle enough with facial blemishes. So I'm hoping that technology really is exponentially growing so I'll be able to do that someday. I have no problem with applying that word to myself. And I'm an adult. At least, once I'll be able to use technology to look like one. Speaking of lolis and who counts are a loli. Do you consider the Elin in Tera and the Lalafell in Final Fantasy XIV to be lolis? |
Lyuze said: Yes there is a large difference. Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent girls. Liking petite body types means you're attracted to people of age that look young. Attraction isn't a purely physical thing. There's a reason taboo fetishes like incest are so well loved. That's the wrong definition. That's the attraction to drawings. What you described is the definition of pedophile. |
Drunk_Samurai said: So basically Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent cartoon girls.Lyuze said: Yes there is a large difference. Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent girls. Liking petite body types means you're attracted to people of age that look young. Attraction isn't a purely physical thing. There's a reason taboo fetishes like incest are so well loved. That's the wrong definition. That's the attraction to drawings. What you described is the definition of pedophile. |
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DrGeroCreation said: Drunk_Samurai said: So basically Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent cartoon girls.That's the wrong definition. That's the attraction to drawings. What you described is the definition of pedophile. Pretty much pedo level |
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Lyuze said: There is a large difference both physically and mentally between a mature but physically petite woman and a prepubescent girl. Looks can be deceiving, especially in a medium in which practically anything goes. Take a look at these examples, then tell me what you think they are – mature women, or little girls. One thing is for sure, a lolicon would definitely want to bang each of these. Heck, even in real life, I know that people can look one, but are the other, especially people who suffer from dwarfism. |
Firelord76Jan 6, 2015 12:04 AM
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| See....THIS is why I came back to AD.... Just for these threads. Goddamn, I've missed this place so much! BTW, with my extensive time of coming to MAL and literally discussing every topic imaginable on AD.....this thread has come up about 1000 times, I myself have made about 3 or 4 incarnations of it. And my conclusion is the following: #1 Anime fans can NOT agree what "loli" means or what a "loli" character is supposed to look like... #2 Lolicon does not mean you like REAL kids. #3 For fucks sake, if you think fapping to drawings is going to make you a real sexual deviant then maybe you also think that killing fictional characters in a video game will make you a fucking psychopath! |
--ALEX--Jan 6, 2015 1:36 AM
JustALEX said: See....THIS is why I came back to AD.... Just for these threads. Goddamn, I've missed this place so much! I miss your fabulous loli threads in CD.. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
DrGeroCreation said: So basically Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent cartoon girls. Pretty much....problem? We have millions of people who love to kill humans by shooting, stabbing, beating, chainsaw to the face, electric plasma thingy to the body, and literally dropping nukes.....on an interactive fictional platform we call "video games". No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. |
AO968 said: Take a look at these examples, then tell me what you think they are – mature women, or little girls. That was a good point. And I really like Tsukomi Komoe. She's one of my favourite characters in To Aru. And to me, her adulthood is one of the best things about her. Though, I do wish that her personality was a little bit more mature. And I think she should stop smoking for her health. |
JustALEX said: No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. No one who knows what they're talking about, you mean? Just correcting you on that, since video games are still blamed for violence irl. |
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JustALEX said: DrGeroCreation said: So basically Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent cartoon girls. Pretty much....problem? We have millions of people who love to kill humans by shooting, stabbing, beating, chainsaw to the face, electric plasma thingy to the body, and literally dropping nukes.....on an interactive fictional platform we call "video games". No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. You must have missed all those idiots blaming Video games for "promomting violence" |
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Hand_of_the_King said: JustALEX said: Pretty much....problem? We have millions of people who love to kill humans by shooting, stabbing, beating, chainsaw to the face, electric plasma thingy to the body, and literally dropping nukes.....on an interactive fictional platform we call "video games". No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. You must have missed all those idiots blaming Video games for "promomting violence" That person only sees what he/she wants to see. GTAV just got banned in AUs and the PS4/One versions are HEAVILY censored. |
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JustALEX said: DrGeroCreation said: So basically Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent cartoon girls. Pretty much....problem? We have millions of people who love to kill humans by shooting, stabbing, beating, chainsaw to the face, electric plasma thingy to the body, and literally dropping nukes.....on an interactive fictional platform we call "video games". No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. Or are just normal, harmless people wanting to vent their stress in a dang game. There were 12 million ppl playing a single fckn World of Warcraft for years on a regular basis. One guy kills a lot of people and World of Warcraft gets banned from a country along with a bunch of other similar "violent games". Without evidence relating psychological problems and video games. And the guy didn't even play WoW. |
Kreion said: Hand_of_the_King said: You must have missed all those idiots blaming Video games for "promomting violence" Idiots are idiots - why bring them up. There are enough studies which prove that videogames have no impact on violent behavior, just as films and books also don't. If someone becomes attracted to young girls after watching anime, they were already attracted to them since you can't force attraction. Conversely if you find loli's attractive that doesn't have any bearing on what you find attractive outside of a 2d image. I know people who read loli manga then go and watch porn about women with big breasts - there's little correlation with what one finds attractive and their personality. More importantly there's little correlation between what people enjoy in a fantasy and what they will do in reality - if you can't differentiate between the two you have always had problems tbh. you kinda missed the point, what i was getting at is that the guy said no one bats an eyelash when people do stuff in Video games which is an inaccurate statement considering to this day we have sugar moms and moral elitists whining about Videogames The difference between real life and fiction was'nt the point of my post |
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Ishikami said: JustALEX said: Pretty much....problem? We have millions of people who love to kill humans by shooting, stabbing, beating, chainsaw to the face, electric plasma thingy to the body, and literally dropping nukes.....on an interactive fictional platform we call "video games". No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. Or are just normal, harmless people wanting to vent their stress in a dang game. There were 12 million ppl playing a single fckn World of Warcraft for years on a regular basis. One guy kills a lot of people and World of Warcraft gets banned from a country along with a bunch of other similar "violent games". Without evidence relating psychological problems and video games. And the guy didn't even play WoW. Do you realise that the "normal, harmless people venting their frustration on fiction" argument can be used for any fiction, including the topic at hand (i.e. lolicon/shotacon and the like)? |
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yhunata said: Ishikami said: Or are just normal, harmless people wanting to vent their stress in a dang game. There were 12 million ppl playing a single fckn World of Warcraft for years on a regular basis. One guy kills a lot of people and World of Warcraft gets banned from a country along with a bunch of other similar "violent games". Without evidence relating psychological problems and video games. And the guy didn't even play WoW. Do you realise that the "normal, harmless people venting their frustration on fiction" argument can be used for any fiction, including the topic at hand (i.e. lolicon/shotacon and the like)? It doesn't matter though since the argument is really about people only doing something in fiction. Liking lolis doesn't mean you like actual REAL children. |
Drunk_Samurai said: It doesn't matter though since the argument is really about people only doing something in fiction. Liking lolis doesn't mean you like actual REAL children. I know. I don't mind loli myself, actually even prefer them over the balloon tits. Real life, though. It's a whole other story. |
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Ratohnhaketon said: PeripheralVision said: Would you want your daughter near that man though? Or even alone with and supervising any child for that matter?And they cause harm by....wanting to bone virtual girls. Okay. I should care why? It's not like they want to bone a real one. Besides, even if a guy did want to bone my daughter, that's his business. There's no problem if he keeps it in his pants and leave my daughter alone. If he has the self control, than I will respect his decision to seek or not seek therapy. Not really, but I'm not going to persecute him either. Pedophiles are people too. Pedophilia is considered by some a mental illness. I don't have a daughter (Sorry for being misleading), but my point still stands. |
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Lyuze said: FairyTechnology said: Loli =!= child There are no permanent "literal" definitions of words. All words evolve. Loli and Lolicon, even, are new terms, without a long history of standing, unaltered usage. If there were to be any words with a stable definition, loli and lolicon would not be among them. Yes, there are literal definitions. We have dictionaries for a reason, it's why we can form cohesive sentences. When you're debating, you can't argue with your personal opinion of what a word means, you have to use their current definition whether you agree with it or not. I think "execution" means "getting bullied." How well do you think I'd do at a debate about capital punishment? Whether you like it or not, the current definitions of loli and lolicon are explicitly related to the sexualization of young/prepubescent girls. That definition may change in the future, none of us can predict that. But as of now, at this moment in time, during this discussion, in this MAL thread, the definition of lolicon is "Japanese discourse or media focusing on the attraction to young or prepubescent girls." Disgusting? Perhaps. Should we ban it? It isn't proven to cause tangible harm, so I say no. No different than violent video games and the such. Or rape pornography. |
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Drunk_Samurai said: yhunata said: Do you realise that the "normal, harmless people venting their frustration on fiction" argument can be used for any fiction, including the topic at hand (i.e. lolicon/shotacon and the like)? It doesn't matter though since the argument is really about people only doing something in fiction. Liking lolis doesn't mean you like actual REAL children. You're right, it's not that they want to bone real children, they just want to bone fictional ones. It's not like the very concept of pedophilia is morally reprehensible.  |
Lyuze said: Drunk_Samurai said: It doesn't matter though since the argument is really about people only doing something in fiction. Liking lolis doesn't mean you like actual REAL children. You're right, it's not that they want to bone real children, they just want to bone fictional ones. It's not like the very concept of pedophilia is morally reprehensible. You obviously don't even know what pedophilia is. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Lyuze said: You're right, it's not that they want to bone real children, they just want to bone fictional ones. It's not like the very concept of pedophilia is morally reprehensible. You obviously don't even know what pedophilia is. State sanctioned castration will solve this problem. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Lyuze said: You're right, it's not that they want to bone real children, they just want to bone fictional ones. It's not like the very concept of pedophilia is morally reprehensible. You obviously don't even know what pedophilia is. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children, it's an incredibly simple word that's almost synonymous with lolicon. |
Aeonic said: Drunk_Samurai said: You obviously don't even know what pedophilia is. State sanctioned castration will solve this problem. Of pedophiles or child molestors? One are the people who carry out the crime, the other is those who did not. I don't know about you, but I cringe to live in the world of the Sybil System and Minority Report. Back on topic, the reason why we have so many young girls in anime nowadays is the moe boom. Moe is changing anime. Is it ruining it? Perhaps, but it is most certainly changed it from the masturbatory GAR fantasies of the 80s and 90s to the moe loving today. |
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Why the question? The only case where it really will solve anything is if you apply it to all people. |
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PeripheralVision said: And infringe on the rights of others? No thank you, I live in America, and if I see ya on the street, I'm slappin the shit out of you. Joking aside, I hope you're not serious, or applying it to all people. I mean, god forbid we castrate everyone, that means no more sex. The good thing about misanthropy is - its package comes with a rather morbid sense of humor included. |
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| A lot of people seem to be under the idea that "because I'm not hurting anyone it's perfectly fine!" which couldn't be any further from the truth. Fantasizing over murder as a concept isn't healthy nor morally sound. If you sit in your room getting off to the idea of harming other people, you are not an okay person; I think most could agree on that. Fantasizing over having sex and potentially both mentally and physically damaging a child as a concept is absolutely not okay. It's not about the child being fictional or real, it's the idea that's unsavoury. Please bare in mind that there's a difference between liking loli and liking petite bodies, regardless of what the tags on Gelbooru and exhentai will try to tell you. If you're just not attracted to big melon tits and find flat chests and less developed features to be more appealing, that's perfectly fine; you like petite structure and that's even the kind of body type I massively prefer. But if you want to put your dick inside a physically and mentally unprepared child, regardless of whether they're fictional or real; you have a problem. |
Asturaetus said: PeripheralVision said: And infringe on the rights of others? No thank you, I live in America, and if I see ya on the street, I'm slappin the shit out of you. Joking aside, I hope you're not serious, or applying it to all people. I mean, god forbid we castrate everyone, that means no more sex. The good thing about misanthropy is - its package comes with a rather morbid sense of humor included. I deleted my post cause I misunderstood the meaning. But it can be said in general that Moe is "changing" anime. |
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PeripheralVision said: I wasn't being serious at all. Lol.Aeonic said: State sanctioned castration will solve this problem. Of pedophiles or child molestors? One are the people who carry out the crime, the other is those who did not. I don't know about you, but I cringe to live in the world of the Sybil System and Minority Report. Back on topic, the reason why we have so many young girls in anime nowadays is the moe boom. Moe is changing anime. Is it ruining it? Perhaps, but it is most certainly changed it from the masturbatory GAR fantasies of the 80s and 90s to the moe loving today. |
Aeonic said: I like how all this ^ is all trash talking to each other. :)PeripheralVision said: I wasn't being serious at all. Lol.Of pedophiles or child molestors? One are the people who carry out the crime, the other is those who did not. I don't know about you, but I cringe to live in the world of the Sybil System and Minority Report. Back on topic, the reason why we have so many young girls in anime nowadays is the moe boom. Moe is changing anime. Is it ruining it? Perhaps, but it is most certainly changed it from the masturbatory GAR fantasies of the 80s and 90s to the moe loving today. |
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Lyuze said: Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children, it's an incredibly simple word that's almost synonymous with lolicon. Lolicons like drawings. Doesn't mean they like real children. Not to mention even the Japanese word for pedophilia is completely different from the word lolicon. Lyuze said: A lot of people seem to be under the idea that "because I'm not hurting anyone it's perfectly fine!" which couldn't be any further from the truth. Fantasizing over murder as a concept isn't healthy nor morally sound. If you sit in your room getting off to the idea of harming other people, you are not an okay person; I think most could agree on that. Fantasizing over having sex and potentially both mentally and physically damaging a child as a concept is absolutely not okay. It's not about the child being fictional or real, it's the idea that's unsavoury. Please bare in mind that there's a difference between liking loli and liking petite bodies, regardless of what the tags on Gelbooru and exhentai will try to tell you. If you're just not attracted to big melon tits and find flat chests and less developed features to be more appealing, that's perfectly fine; you like petite structure and that's even the kind of body type I massively prefer. But if you want to put your dick inside a physically and mentally unprepared child, regardless of whether they're fictional or real; you have a problem. Nice ignorance. The people who do that and don't actually harm people are not a problem. Only the people who actually go out and do it are the problem. |
| It is hard to say which character could be underage or not in drawn/animated media. The persons who decided the age of the characters are the illustrator/animator or designer. Even if a anime girl would look like a young child she could be a adult woman. Fiction makes everything possible. Adults who look like children and even children who look like adults. And personally I do not mind fiction. Fiction should be fiction. If a person lose the ability to distinguish between fiction and reality that would be a problem ! |
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JustALEX said: No problem at all, I just needed to make sure considering lolicons seem to constantly change what lolicon is and what are lolis.DrGeroCreation said: So basically Lolicon is an attraction to young/prepubescent cartoon girls. Pretty much....problem? We have millions of people who love to kill humans by shooting, stabbing, beating, chainsaw to the face, electric plasma thingy to the body, and literally dropping nukes.....on an interactive fictional platform we call "video games". No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. JustALEX said: WOW I didn't know you could get internet access while living under a rock. Seriously? Videogames have never been blamed for the violent actions of psychopaths and criminals?No one seems to bat an eyelash that these people might secretly be all psychopaths that want to actualize their video game fantasies in real life. |
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