| First of all anime and LN Kiritsugu arent different at all. You are wrong that he isnt a dreamer.He is.And a big one at that.People that search for miracles are just that. For the guilt part....Hm you can say that till Natalia's death or at least untill he met Iri what made him move was guilt.The guilt of not killing Shirley ,when it was her asking him to do it,which resulted to the tragedy n the island. Surely the pain of others "shakes his heart"(prologue of LN) and IF he can he will help .BUT.This is the war for the miracle he was searching for,so the pain of one girl and a half dead man wasnt something that would make him help.Dont forget that even if he wanted to help Kariya there is Berserker who is more than fixated to Saber which would jeopardize everything. Also dont forget that Kayneth and Sola were no threat to him anymore yet he still killed them. He doesnt take responsibility. Whatever he does,he uses the"the one to tip the scales" excuse for what he does.Before his fight with Kayneth he wants to run away from the battle,together with Iri and Ilya.After all he did all those years,after all those he killed(there were innocents among the ones that had to die like Natalia did)he wanted to give up.Surely that was a good thing,taking them far away and all(I wish he did) but it wasnt responsible at all(according to his past,ideals etc.) |
ssjokgJun 18, 2012 7:59 AM
truepurple said: Also dont forget that Kayneth and Sola were no threat to him anymore yet he still killed them. Please keep in mind that I don't have these names memorized in the slightest, I use alot of cut and paste to insert them into my posts, so I am not sure which people you are talking about(I think I know one of them, not positive though) That said... Oh, for the sake of... You are on MAL! Just hit Characters page and use Ctrl+F. It's half a minute's work. |
truepurple said: ... Seriously if you want to discuss about a character try to remember what was going on in the anime.It makes those that sit down to discuss it with you seem like idiots. A man --close to 30-- that still wants to be a Hero of justice(save everyone) is a dreamer.It's not about the goal being big.It's about being impossible to come true. Are you kidding?We are talking about the middle of the Holy Grail War.Kiritsugu WOULDNT help anyone,especially one of his enemies.Also if you recall, he didnt do anything against Caster, and mass disappearances of children are far more important than one single girl.He wouldnt do anything that jeopardizes his participation in the war.If he had heard about her outside the war then probably(not 100%) he would have helped. Lancer's Master was on a wheelchair unable to use magecraft anymore,his fiance lost one hand and I doubt she had any power to do something against Kerry.And I used these 2 as an example of what he would do to Kariya IF Kariya ever approached him.And no Kayneth wasnt killed by Sola wtf man? Tactical retreat and abandoning the war is two different things.He wanted to run away and Iri told him to shut up and fight in her own way. It was never his responsibility to save the world ,but when you go around killing the guilty and the innocent you have the responsibility to make their deaths have a meaning, not thinking of giving up.I wish he had taken his family somewhere far away.As a parent/husband it would be responsible.But then what about his past actions.And clearly if he had used the grail he would be an idiot,destroying it doesnt make him responsible.It makes him a rational man.One must be retarded if he/she still wanted to make the wish after seeing all the things Kiritsugu saw. Kiritsugu could turn off his emotions when holding a gun since he was a child.After all those years he lived with Iri and Ilya made him more susceptible to sentimentalism.Before meeting Iri he would have killed all the tenants in the hotel Kayneth stayed. |
ssjokgJun 18, 2012 2:17 PM
| Sigh... "The previous thread went off topic" No it didn't go off topic. It simply ended because none of your points were valid. Also it helps in a discussion to at least remember correctly the characters' names and what happened. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| For many it's easy to cling to what you have and forsake others. Time and time again Kiritsugu puts himself last and a part of himself dies along with the lives he ends. The amount of loved ones he has doesn't exceed the number of fingers on one hand, yet for 6 billion strangers he sacrifices himself and the only world he knows. My respects go to this Hero of Justice. |
| Read the light novels. His mindset is explained and spelled aloud without need to speculate about him. Here, I'll be generous and give you a helpful quote: “Are we able to run away? We…” “We can. Now there’s still a chance.” Kiritsugu replied immediately. But that wasn’t believable. Kiritsugu only said that to allow his own heart to still cherish that illusionary hope. “– You’re lying.” So Irisviel pointed that out, gently, cruelly. “That’s impossible. Emiya Kiritsugu, it’s impossible for you to run away.” “Give up the Holy Grail, give up the ideal of saving the world; you will definitely not forgive such a self. You will definitely be the final judge and declare the death penalty for yourself.” Kiritsugu finally cried out. He understood that too. He had no choices left since a long time ago. “I’m so scared…” Kiritsugu sobbed, and spoke of what was in his heart like a child. Suuuure, not guilt at all. |
ThessJun 18, 2012 8:20 PM
| I dont think his actions all those years where ONLY because of Shirley if thats what you mean.I doubt he felt guilty only for that incident especially after all those years.Yes it was his fault since he couldnt kill her but after that how many more people had he sacrificed or failed to save? |
| I think the Kiritsugu in Fate/Zero is messed up.........its painful and sad to see him trying to save others but slowly losing those dear to him. this is what you call compassionate kiritsugu |
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ssjokg said: A man --close to 30-- that still wants to be a Hero of justice(save everyone) is a dreamer.It's not about the goal being big.It's about being impossible to come true. Let's not forget that we are talking about the Holy Grail here. It was said to be an omnipotent wish granting device. In other words, it was logical for Kiritsugu to assume that the Grail would make his goal achievable. So in the end, he was a realist and not a big dreamer. And he never really considered running away. He was just expressing what he actually wanted to Irisviel. He was never delusional about the fact that the killing he was doing was wrong and unjust. Sure, the act of not killing Shirley in time stimulated his mentality of not giving any preference to his loved ones. But there's nothing more to that. He genuinely wanted to save the world. The only illogical factor here is that he felt it was his own responsibility to do so. Maybe that can be attributed to guilt. |
Forgetfulness said: Explain how his wish would come true without manipulation of fate/will or total annihilation of humankind.How come everyone is saying that Kiritsugu has unrealistic dreams? The Holy Grail is supposedly able to grant any wish through MAGIC(which can do like anything). Also, no one knew that it had Angra Mainyu inside of it Whether the Grail was tainted or not his wish wouldnt bring real peace.Those that would bring war/death(intentionally or not) would just die or something in order to prevent it.The only thing that changes is that it wont be Kiritsugu to pull the trigger but some magical force(probably the Counter Force?That would be cool for a series or something). When Kirei talks with Iri he says the one thing that Kiritsugu cant understand."Conflict is Humanity's primal instinct.Eliminating it would mean eliminating humanity itself." EDIT:typos |
ssjokgNov 10, 2013 12:56 AM
Forgetfulness said: Which goes back to manipulation of fate/will.Whether that is acceptable or not and real peace,depends on the individual I think.ssjokg said: Forgetfulness said: Explain how his wish would come true without manipulation of fate/will or total annihilation of humankind.How come everyone is saying that Kiritsugu has unrealistic dreams? The Holy Grail is supposedly able to grant any wish through MAGIC(which can do like anything). Also, no one knew that it had Angra Mainyu inside of it Whether the Grail was tainted or not his wish wouldnt bring real peace.Those that would bring war/death(intentionally or not) would just die or something in order to prevent it.The only thing that changes is that it wont be Kiritsugu to pull the trigger but some magical force(probably the Counter Force?That would be cool for a series or something). When Kirei talks with iri he says the one think that Kiritsugu cant understand."Conflict is Humanity's primal instinct Eliminating it would mean eliminating humanity itself." Ah, I see what you mean now. I dunno what would have happened if it was the ideal Grail; maybe evil people will will stop wanting to and carrying out sin. Isn't that a possibility? o_O |
| This is why I love Kiritsugu so much, and why I felt so heartbroken when he lost everything for essentially nothing. Despite coming off as a heartless killer, he's trying to save the world even if it means sacrificing his loved ones. Most people would never do anything like that. He truly is a selfless character. |
Forgetfulness said: Evatallica said: I think that kinda depends on whose point of view you're talking about. I'm sure at least some the people he killed would rather be alive than be sacrificed for his ideal.This is why I love Kiritsugu so much, and why I felt so heartbroken when he lost everything for essentially nothing. Despite coming off as a heartless killer, he's trying to save the world even if it means sacrificing his loved ones. Most people would never do anything like that. He truly is a selfless character. That's actually a really good point. He's killed many people after all |
Evatallica said: You know something though, this is why I hate Kiritsugu.This is why I love Kiritsugu so much, and why I felt so heartbroken when he lost everything for essentially nothing. Despite coming off as a heartless killer, he's trying to save the world even if it means sacrificing his loved ones. Most people would never do anything like that. He truly is a selfless character. This is going to sound kind of bad at first, but hear me out: I seriously with that Kiritsugu WOULD be selfish a little bit. Kiritsugu has always tried to live by his definition of a 'hero'. But in my opinion, it's a twisted definition. His definition of a hero is basically 'a person that saves lives' and doesn't think beyond that. But to him, the way you save one person's life is by throwing another away. He has never fought without shooting to kill, but in most stories, when someone tries to bring about an idealized version of being 'heroic' they look for a way to save the lives in jeopardy without killing the people in their way. In other words, what I believe should be the definition of a hero is 'a person that saves and spares lives'. Putting this into context, when Kiritsugu is being question by the Holy Grail with the scenario about the last of humanity on two boats, when taken by the 200 and told to fix their boat first, his immediate go-to would be to slaughter everyone on that boat so he could save the 300 on the other. But that isn't the way a hero should think. In that situation, a hero should have been trying to figure out some way to not only save the people of one boat, but how to rescue the ones on the second boat after or even during the fact. (He has 300 people that regardless of their ability to fix a boat, could be doing SOMETHING useful). To me, it seems like the minute the going got tough for Kiritsugu, he looked for the fastest route out rather than the best way out. When Natalia was coming in on a plane filled with Ghouls, he fear the possible casualties so much that he took the fastest route out by shooting the plane down before it could land instead of trying to figure out a way to keep people out of harm's way afterwards. I can respect characters that make the hard choices when there is clearly no alternative, but Kiritsugu doesn't even try, he gives up any fighting chance he had by taking the fast route out of any given situation. Kiritsugu may in fact be a selfless person, and that's why he is able to make the hard choices before it has the opportunity to get out of hand. But I wish he were a little selfish so he would be able to try for something better instead of giving up the moment things look bad. |
 |
| Both the dream scene and the airplane scene are both situations where NOTHING else can be done. If you noticed Kiritsugu DID spare the lives of those that were staying in the same hotel as Kayneth even though that lowered his chances of success. |
FakePriest said: Both the dream scene and the airplane scene are both situations where NOTHING else can be done. If you noticed Kiritsugu DID spare the lives of those that were staying in the same hotel as Kayneth even though that lowered his chances of success. Not true. He did not HAVE to kill the 200 people on the other boat. If he supposedly had enough time to kill all 200 and fix the other boat, there were about 20 other things he could have been doing that would have resulted in saving more lives. Heck, according to the way the scenario laid out, the time Kiritsugu spent killing the 200 caused the 300 to split off into two other boats. No matter how hypothetical the question is, according to this scenario, Kiritsugu killing off the 200 was nothing but wasted time. He could have fixed their boat like they wanted and rescued plenty from the ship with 300. And he did not HAVE to blow up the airplane. He could have done something to clear out the people near where it would be landing so the only way more casualties would happen is if they failed to kill the remaining ghouls before becoming ghouls themselves. In other words, he could have done the same thing with the airplane as he did with Kayneth's building explosion; which - by the way - did not lower his chances of success in killing Kayneth. He knew Kayneth would realize another Master was using it as a trap, and thus would remain in the building waiting for their attack. Kiritsugu's attempt to kill Kayneth failed because he thought no magical barrier known to man would have saved him from a fall that great but had no knowledge of his Volumen Hydrargyrum. |
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FakePriest said: If you noticed Kiritsugu DID spare the lives of those that were staying in the same hotel as Kayneth even though that lowered his chances of success. Soft. If only he had insanity wolf to guide him. |
FateHero said: FakePriest said: Both the dream scene and the airplane scene are both situations where NOTHING else can be done. If you noticed Kiritsugu DID spare the lives of those that were staying in the same hotel as Kayneth even though that lowered his chances of success. Not true. He did not HAVE to kill the 200 people on the other boat. If he supposedly had enough time to kill all 200 and fix the other boat, there were about 20 other things he could have been doing that would have resulted in saving more lives. Heck, according to the way the scenario laid out, the time Kiritsugu spent killing the 200 caused the 300 to split off into two other boats. No matter how hypothetical the question is, according to this scenario, Kiritsugu killing off the 200 was nothing but wasted time. He could have fixed their boat like they wanted and rescued plenty from the ship with 300. And he did not HAVE to blow up the airplane. He could have done something to clear out the people near where it would be landing so the only way more casualties would happen is if they failed to kill the remaining ghouls before becoming ghouls themselves. In other words, he could have done the same thing with the airplane as he did with Kayneth's building explosion; which - by the way - did not lower his chances of success in killing Kayneth. He knew Kayneth would realize another Master was using it as a trap, and thus would remain in the building waiting for their attack. Kiritsugu's attempt to kill Kayneth failed because he thought no magical barrier known to man would have saved him from a fall that great but had no knowledge of his Volumen Hydrargyrum. That isnt the point.The dream shows what he would do in an extreme situation where even those 200 directly threat the lives of the people on the other boat. And above all else it is just a freaking metaphor. What exactly was he supposed to say to the authorities?The airport would still be not empty,and the Mage Association and the Church wouldnt give one shit about Natalia.How exactly would he get close to the airport while armed with a rocket launcher?In USA?And it isnt just the Ghouls but the wasps as well.Natalia fucking up and causing a breach to the hull is also an issue. No.Actually setting off the alarm in order to give enough time for the other people to escape was a bad move, when his goal was to kill Kayneth or other mages.They know he is coming,they can prepare. |
FakePriest said: First off, I did say "No matter how hypothetical the question is" right? Meaning I'm acknowledging the fact it's a metaphor but putting that aside for the purpose of debate. And while it was an extreme situation, the 200 were not direct threats, I stand by what I've already stated about how he could have handled the situation.That isnt the point.The dream shows what he would do in an extreme situation where even those 200 directly threat the lives of the people on the other boat. And above all else it is just a freaking metaphor. What exactly was he supposed to say to the authorities?The airport would still be not empty,and the Mage Association and the Church wouldnt give one shit about Natalia.How exactly would he get close to the airport while armed with a rocket launcher?In USA?And it isnt just the Ghouls but the wasps as well.Natalia fucking up and causing a breach to the hull is also an issue. No.Actually setting off the alarm in order to give enough time for the other people to escape was a bad move, when his goal was to kill Kayneth or other mages.They know he is coming,they can prepare. And who said anything about talking to the authorities? He's supposed to create a situation that forces an evacuation like he did with Kayneth. And how exactly does what the Mage Association or Church care about play any kind of factor in this scenario? Answer: It doesn't. And I'm saying if he had done it this way maybe he wouldn't need a rocket launcher, and I bet they could still take care of the wasps pretty easy. And I said that it didn't matter if they knew he was coming, Kayneth wasn't expecting him to blow the building up and - once again - Kiritsugu thought that there was absolutely no way to survive the fall, which meant it wouldn't have mattered even if he did prepare. The only reason he failed was because of Volumen Hydrargyrum, something Kiritsugu had no knowledge of. If he had known about it, he would have altered his plan. |
|
| "...The one with three hundred aboard, of course." After you make that decision,the two hundred aboard the other ship capture you and make this demand. "Fix this ship first". Now then, what will you do? "I..." "Hold it..." The one hundred aboard the smaller ship abduct you, and coerce you to fix this ship first. Now then, what will you do? In what possible could Kiritsugu be coerced?With the lives of others. But that aside, there is no reason for a debate here since this isnt a realistic situation even by the show's standards. How exactly would an entire airport be evacuated?Even if all citizens are evacuated SOME PEOPLE still need to be left behind to manage the rest of the flights.It isnt a hotel, a museum or something that is just evacuated.Ad the authorities WILL get to work.An airport being evacuated isnt a small thing. Many in this forums assumed that the Association and the Church could help them with some spell or whatever. Please tell me how exactly he would eradicate every single Ghoul AND wasp without blowing them up. It ISNT about Kayneth.It is about his target, regardless of who that target is.Kayneth figured out an attack was coming but he had VH which is semi automatic.Other magi may have to actually prepare for any defence they have.Kiritsugu's action could give them that time to prepare.For the Magus Killer confirming the safety of the others was a "bad" move. |
DarthVantos said: For many it's easy to cling to what you have and forsake others. Time and time again Kiritsugu puts himself last and a part of himself dies along with the lives he ends. The amount of loved ones he has doesn't exceed the number of fingers on one hand, yet for 6 billion strangers he sacrifices himself and the only world he knows. My respects go to this Hero of Justice. This :D Kiritsugu one of my favorite character. |
FakePriest said: "...The one with three hundred aboard, of course." After you make that decision,the two hundred aboard the other ship capture you and make this demand. "Fix this ship first". Now then, what will you do? "I..." "Hold it..." The one hundred aboard the smaller ship abduct you, and coerce you to fix this ship first. Now then, what will you do? In what possible could Kiritsugu be coerced?With the lives of others. But that aside, there is no reason for a debate here since this isnt a realistic situation even by the show's standards. How exactly would an entire airport be evacuated?Even if all citizens are evacuated SOME PEOPLE still need to be left behind to manage the rest of the flights.It isnt a hotel, a museum or something that is just evacuated.Ad the authorities WILL get to work.An airport being evacuated isnt a small thing. Many in this forums assumed that the Association and the Church could help them with some spell or whatever. Please tell me how exactly he would eradicate every single Ghoul AND wasp without blowing them up. It ISNT about Kayneth.It is about his target, regardless of who that target is.Kayneth figured out an attack was coming but he had VH which is semi automatic.Other magi may have to actually prepare for any defence they have.Kiritsugu's action could give them that time to prepare.For the Magus Killer confirming the safety of the others was a "bad" move. Okay, you've officially stopped trying to defend the dream sequence and are now just denying it as a relevant factor. One point for me. There are plenty of emergencies Kiritsugu could have made to force a full evac. But you know what I just thought of, who says they even had to land the plane at an airport? Get Natalia to land it anywhere there aren't people, break through the cockpit window for her to get out, and then blow up the plane with just the ghouls and wasps still sealed inside. And I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered how much any other magi had prepared, Kayneth was a freaking ninth generation Mage (and don't say that has nothing to do with it, because in this universe, it means A LOT), and how many of those do you think are in the world? According to Kiritsugu, there wasn't a magical barrier known to man that would allow someone to survive that fall. Kayneth - with VH - may very well be the only magi capable of doing so. Anyone else, no matter how much they had prepared, wouldn't have survived Kiritsugu's attack, and that was what he was betting on when he evacuated the building. VH is a singular unknown factor that without would have resulted in Kayneth's - or "the target's" - death. |
|
FateHero said: FakePriest said: "...The one with three hundred aboard, of course." After you make that decision,the two hundred aboard the other ship capture you and make this demand. "Fix this ship first". Now then, what will you do? "I..." "Hold it..." The one hundred aboard the smaller ship abduct you, and coerce you to fix this ship first. Now then, what will you do? In what possible could Kiritsugu be coerced?With the lives of others. But that aside, there is no reason for a debate here since this isnt a realistic situation even by the show's standards. How exactly would an entire airport be evacuated?Even if all citizens are evacuated SOME PEOPLE still need to be left behind to manage the rest of the flights.It isnt a hotel, a museum or something that is just evacuated.Ad the authorities WILL get to work.An airport being evacuated isnt a small thing. Many in this forums assumed that the Association and the Church could help them with some spell or whatever. Please tell me how exactly he would eradicate every single Ghoul AND wasp without blowing them up. It ISNT about Kayneth.It is about his target, regardless of who that target is.Kayneth figured out an attack was coming but he had VH which is semi automatic.Other magi may have to actually prepare for any defence they have.Kiritsugu's action could give them that time to prepare.For the Magus Killer confirming the safety of the others was a "bad" move. Okay, you've officially stopped trying to defend the dream sequence and are now just denying it as a relevant factor. One point for me. There are plenty of emergencies Kiritsugu could have made to force a full evac. But you know what I just thought of, who says they even had to land the plane at an airport? Get Natalia to land it anywhere there aren't people, break through the cockpit window for her to get out, and then blow up the plane with just the ghouls and wasps still sealed inside. And I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered how much any other magi had prepared, Kayneth was a freaking ninth generation Mage (and don't say that has nothing to do with it, because in this universe, it means A LOT), and how many of those do you think are in the world? According to Kiritsugu, there wasn't a magical barrier known to man that would allow someone to survive that fall. Kayneth - with VH - may very well be the only magi capable of doing so. Anyone else, no matter how much they had prepared, wouldn't have survived Kiritsugu's attack, and that was what he was betting on when he evacuated the building. VH is a singular unknown factor that without would have resulted in Kayneth's - or "the target's" - death. You want to argue about a freaking metaphor, about how unrealistic it is.You try to make an argument out of nothing.Of course I cant "win" I have nothing to prove about a METAPHOR that doesnt TRY to be realistic. And as I said, assuming that this is even true, the AUTHORITIES will rush there. Natalia herself said that she will have problems with piloting it and she has requested help from the tower.She CANT even properly land it on an airport.You argument has been refuted multiple times since 2 years ago when FZ was airing.Stop repeating stuff. Kayneth isnt the only capable magi, or BEING in the world.And yes it doesnt matter.Waver cant even touch him, not even as El-Meloi II and he GOT VH later.You are just assuming that magi cant get magecraft powerful enough to save themselves.Kiritsugu doesnt know everything,like VH.Oh look Tokiomi jumped from Vimana and landed without even breaking a sweat.He also has magical fire barriers and who knows what else.And he is NOWHERE near Kayneth's level. Making his intentions known, revealing that he will attack puts him into a disadvantage. |
Forgetfulness said: Evatallica said: I think that kinda depends on whose point of view you're talking about. I'm sure at least some the people he killed would rather be alive than be sacrificed for his ideal.This is why I love Kiritsugu so much, and why I felt so heartbroken when he lost everything for essentially nothing. Despite coming off as a heartless killer, he's trying to save the world even if it means sacrificing his loved ones. Most people would never do anything like that. He truly is a selfless character. Yep I agree .....he is a killer...And in the end it came to nothing.....he couldn't get his wish after all the people he killed. I really hate him |
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