If the posibility exited for a visual novel section on MAL, what would you be willing to do? (Please also post your answer.)
 Sorry quin but I had to post this picture. | OneManArmy As we approach 1,000 users all I can do is gaze in awe. When this Club started with me and a handful of friends (who all quickly became ghost members) I was more worried about it staying alive, especially in my spells of unactivity. However, whether under my guidance or in my many prolonged absences this Club has flourished. I thank you all for that. I am well aware that the number 977 (the member total as I write this) isn't indicative of how many users actually visit this Club on a regular basis. Hell, some of those 977 don't even use MAL anymore, let alone visit this Club. And some of those 977 may only be here because most visual novel themed Clubs are slow or dead and this one is fairly large and active. Even if they were all active unfortunately I Doubt that 1,000 users will be enough to convince Xinil of anything seeing as how right now there are over 2,000 users currently on-line, most of whom don't even know what visual novels are, those that do may not even know this Club exists. My goal, the reason I made this Club in the first place, is to get a visual novel database here on MAL. This has not changed, this will never change until the task is done. I am willing to do whatever it takes to get this done. I always have been. What I ask of you all now, the point of this thread, is a mere show of hands. As the member list isn't indicative of anything after so long I want to know who is still here and what they would be willing to do to get this off the ground, if anything at all. I am willing to do anything, even donate. But I don't expect anyone else to go quite that far. I'd like for everyone still active to come in here and answer this one question; "If the posibility existed for a visual novel section on MAL, what would you be willing to do?" |
QuintessenceJan 30, 2012 12:59 AM
| Show of hands of who would be willing to help make this thing work. . . Would help build: Azathoth ducknyan Ferios insan3soldiern natsukage OneManArmy Pabloc Quintessence WStar Would use: ducknyan Ferios natsukage OneManArmy Quintessence Warfoki WStar Would donate if need be: Quintessence |
QuintessenceJan 19, 2012 1:26 AM
| I'd be willing to help build it to some extent. But since vndb has gotten better and better, the need for a visual novel part on MAL doesn't feel as important anymore even if it'd be fun. But yeah, you can sign me up for helping. |
| I've been fighting with whether or not to join VNBD and I finally joined tonite. I still don't like the look or feel of the site, but what else am I supposed to use? |
| I'd help as much as I could, as well as use it if it all works out. I'd also say though, that with VNDB as it is, it isn't as necessary anymore. It's a question of whether people will use it or not. VNDB has gotten pretty extensive and it would be probably hard to make something as good on old buggy MAL. I see no problem in trying though. |
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| I'd help build it, and especially use it. Even though VNDB exists, and I have an account over there, I only use it to keep my list updated. I'd much rather have it all centralized on 1 profile. |
Quintessence said: You'll gradually get used to it and notice that it's actually a pretty good site. But it's more a database (well, that's what it is) than a place like MAL, so there is a lot of differences too. You'll notice.I've been fighting with whether or not to join VNBD and I finally joined tonite. I still don't like the look or feel of the site, but what else am I supposed to use? |
| although i see little point to it when vndb already exist but i'm still supporting it. |
| I'd use it. I definitely won't donate since I'm not in a dire need of it and I haven't got the money for things I really need. And I probably wouldn't help build it, since I have no skills for something like that. And adding VNs and stuff is covered by the use option, I guess. As for VNDB, I've got into the whole anime/manga business because of a visual novel (F/SN, to be precise), so I have an account over there longer than here. Still, if there would be a section like that here, I'd use it. |
Azathoth said: It's precisely that difference as well as the fact there is no way to record your progress that make the site unappealing to me. I'm only going to use it to update my VN's and the few friends I have that are on MAL are not on VN so they wouldn't see it. Also, I like my MAL facebook app that updates on FB what I update on MAL. It'd be great if I could do that with VN's too instead of actually posting my progress on facebook.Quintessence said: You'll gradually get used to it and notice that it's actually a pretty good site. But it's more a database (well, that's what it is) than a place like MAL, so there is a lot of differences too. You'll notice.I've been fighting with whether or not to join VNBD and I finally joined tonite. I still don't like the look or feel of the site, but what else am I supposed to use? Already I'm seeing two themes creep in this thread; 1) VNDB exists so even if MAL didn't add VN's we could still get by. Which is true and 2) Despite that there is some desire for consolidation. I should point out that they are starting to add CD dramas and music to MAL. It seems they're mixing it in with the anime. Could MAL not add VN's in with manga then, like light novels? VN's could be added that way without actually adding a VN section. I might actually message Xinil and see how he takes to the notion. . . |
| If they're adding music and CD Dramas, they're almost bound to add visual novels as well since it's more anime/manga-esque than music. And sure, the visual novels could be in the manga section, but getting a new section would be the greatest since you could both add your "Favorite visual novels" as well as keeping the 18+ content (well, not like there will be any of that content here, but rather the media that involves it) away from those who doesn't have anything to do with it. But well, wait until there's 1000 members before taking action, it shouldn't take more than a week or two since there only needs to be 23 more people. |
| A separate section would be ideal for sure, but I'm thinking if we could just get VN's on here and prove it can work then maybe we could push for a separate section later. Plus, adding a new section would increase the bugs in a site that is becoming infamous for it's bugs (I once avoided MAL for half a year because the bugs made the site damned near unnavigable). Anyway, I did message Xinil about the notion of maybe adding VN's to the manga section. It might come to nothing anyways but I'll try talking with him and see if he's warmed up to the idea of visual novels in the last 4 years. And yes, MAL has a music section. Adding something from music will appear in your anime profile. It is exactly like light novels and manga. There are 18+ anime and manga, but 18+ images are not allowed. 18+ content is never going to be allowed on MAL whether VN's get a separate section or not. There are just too many users on here that are not old enough to view 18+ material, I wouldn't want to have to deal with the headache of keeping the kiddies away from the porn either. |
| Doing it in two stages is probably better, yes. First we'll have to prove that we're actually serious about it before being rewarded with a section of our own. What I meant with that is to keep all visual novels with an age restriction or something. No 18+ images here of course, but seeing as the majority of the visual novels existing are nukige, it's commonly known as a media only used for porn. Of course it could be without the restrictions too, no risks involved. |
| If the situation presents itself I will bring up the idea of maybe a separate visual novel section. First I just want to see if his opinion has changed. He's allowing music on here so he may be more open to new ideas. I see what your saying now, but isn't that what the hentai tag is for? Plus, some VN's have an all ages version as well as an 18+ version (Fate/stay night, To Heart, Kanon, etc.). How would it work in those cases? |
| Keeping some distance is good for now, just telling him the idea is good enough for now. For how to keep the different versions of the game apart, that's a hard question vndb takes care of in a good way. But I'd say make two entries. Clannad and Clannad (All Ages) with an "alternate version" link in the discription. |
| I had a feeling that's what you were aluding too. . . It's logically sound to do that as removing the H scenes sometimes makes it a different game, but I'm not sure how Xinil would take to having 2 entries for what is esentially the same game, with the same characters and same description and the same pictures, just one is rated X and the other PG. I thought VNDB just had the main page with links to specific info about all versions of the VN listed below. Not sure if that's something that would need to be done here. After all, they don't have separate pages for censored and uncensored anime hentai. There would definitely have to be some notification that the title is available in dirty and clean formats though, whether that be a simple note or separate entries some clarification would need to be present. Also, CLANNAD is all ages only isn't it? I thought that was part of the reason they released Tomoyo After. To cater to the hentai audience. |
| P.S. I'm glad you brought that up. It's one of the issues we would need to resolve if we want to go ahead with VN's on MAL. Another pressing issue would be; "How do we record progress?" as there are a couple different ways of doing it. Of course, we could do ALL of them. I mean we have manga and light novels tracked by chapter and by volume, it would be just as easy to track VN's by CG and endings. Can you think of another way to track progress? I feel like I'm forgetting something. . . |
| Yes, there is no 18+ version to Clannad, but change the word Clannad to Kanon and you'll have what I wanted to have said in the beginning. Yes, only mentioning it should be alright, there could be the description of the game in the description and under that there could be the names of the different releases in a bold font and then the changes made in them after that (not in bold). Progress could be "Routes cleared" instead of "episodes watched" because you can't say it in percentage since the player rarely know just how long it actually is. With anime and manga it's much easier because it's a set number of episodes/chapters. And it's smaller pieces of something big whereas a visual novel is one huge piece instead. |
| That sounds like it would work. The tags would be a mess though. Not sure how to make tags work for this, it'd have to be tagged hentai even if there is a clean version. Could confuse those not familiar, but it wouldn't be the first time tags have done that. . . Some routes have multiple endings. I saw the walkthrough for Katawa Shoujo, some of the girls have 3 endings. That's why I said endings rather than routes. Also, CG would have to figure in somehow. If you find all the endings can you really consider it complete if you're missing some CG? Just thought of something else there. They calculate, somehow, how much time you've spent watching anime or reading manga. I don't agree with doing that with manga as some people read faster than others, but for VN's it becomes impossible. There is no way for the site to calculate how long it takes for someone to finish a VN. VNDB only gives estimates and even those are just a tad off (I'd like to see someone finish Kanon in 10 hours!). Edit: Starting to wonder if VN's CAN work under manga as manga calculates time. |
| Well, tags aren't that well used anyway so whatever. We can skip the hentai tag altogether though since most of them will have it anyway. For the amount of endings, you wouldn't know without a walkthrough. The best I could say to that is that instead of just one "xxx completed", we'd have a few for each character and also telling how many endings there are. Like F/SN's "5 routes completed" and "42 bad ends completed" (I think there wre 42, though I can be wrong). As for CG, you can still miss one by choosing another option but still completing the route just fine, so I'm not too sure about that. As for visual novels, I've always thought that you insert the time yourself there, or go with the average like vndb does and have all people who put it as completed to insert their time to create a better average. |
| But using endings as a counter is also problematic. What about the bad endings? For example Fate/Stay Night has only three routes but forty-something bad ends. It's a same with the others, simple game overs and bad ends shouldn't count since they rarely add anything to the story apart from a few short and depressing scenes. I'd go with routes instead, that's easier to count. Although there are VNs where the routes are practically identical and the story branches very late in the game, basically only influencing the epilogues. As for reading time, it's a rough estimate anyway, so nothing could be done there. About the insert the reading time idea: how do you do that? I mean most of the vns doesn't have a counter and I most certainly won't take notes how many minutes have I spent reading each visual novel... |
| edit: This post was meant for Az, but everything after "True that." can also suffice as an answer to Warfoki's post as well. True that. Oh I wasn't talking about random bad endings. I was talking about REAL endings. The ones that usually get listed in the extras. Fate/stay night has 3 routes for 5 endings, Tsukihime has 5 routes for 9 endings. It seems you consider the real endings as routes. It is true that unlocking all the CG isn't necessary, so your point is valid. Personally I like to get them all, but I can how some would not care about that as long as they unlock all of the real endings. Another option could be to consider a game complete with all real endings obtained and have a separate drop box for those like me who like to go for all the goodies. That's actually a good idea, inserting your own time. Dunno if it could work on MAL, but if it gets added with manga that would likely be the best way to do it. Only thing is, most VN's don't record time. I have no idea how long it took me to finish Tsukihime. Best I could do, aside from replaying and timing myself, would be a very rough estimate. Though considering my opinion of how they record "time" for manga I guess a rough estimate would be just as accurate. |
| If there will be something I could help with, count me in. As long as I have some free time I'd try to do whaterver is within my abilities. As for using the VN section on MAL... probably not. I'm used to VNDB already. :P Also, perhaps we can try to convince them to at least add VNs with VNDB liks to the relations lists on the anime/manga pages? Maybe that would be a good start. I can write something more about it, but that will have to wait a few hours, when I'll be done with RL stuff. ;) |
| We could add links ourselves in the descriptions. But it's not what we're aiming for here. And I, for one, have never liked VNDB. I joined last night for the hell of it and I find it is lacking in many areas. It certainly feels like a database. Unfortunately it lacks a lot of the community aspects that MAL has. Plus, I like having all my stuff in one place. |
| True, VNDB probably won't ever be a social network of any sort. Yorhel is quite lenient in most of the cases, except this one. But I don't really mind that. The only thing I miss there is a review section in the pages of the visual novels. Sure, I can always open a thread but that's quite hidden and an average lurker will probably won't even notice it. Otherwise, I'm fine with it. I don't use Facebook, Twitter or the like anyway (I do have an FB account but I log in about once in a month), so the lack of support for those is not an issue for me. As for discussions, I'm going there to discuss VNs, and I can do that just fine. Still, MAL has a much more carefree feel to it and it would be cool to keep everything in one place. Though I won't abandon VNDB anyway. |
| I had no idea that it lacked a review system. I kind of like the review system here, it's helped me find some new stuff that I liked. Though I may not make much use of it, I'm hardly a social butterfly, I enjoy the social aspects of MAL as well as the facebook app. MAL seems to encourage participation more than VNDB. Seems that on VNDB they just decided to add a forum whereas here the site IS the forum. I mean seriously, PM, blog, profile comments, reviews and a fairly large forum. Everywhere you go here it's encouraging you to post something. |
| Count me in for helping you guys with creating VN related stuff here. I'm actually using VNDB for some time right now but I'd gladly shift all of my attention related to VN right here. I don't find VNDB as a very convenient site and VNDB is clearly lacking in social aspect as you've just said. I'm using it only because there's no better place for keeping track of your Visual Novels and if MAL would have VN corner I'd gladly use it and help building it. And sorry for not posting any ideas right now, have to take care of RL stuff before putting my whole attention into this matter. For now I just wanted to say that I'd gladly help if I'd be able to. |
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| "Seems that on VNDB they just decided to add a forum" Exactly. As far as I know, originally the forum was there only for feedback on VNs and on the database. The fact that the forum became quite lively compared to that is thanks to the community built around the site. The forum is as barebone (no PMs, no avatars, no signatures, no posibility to insert images, etc.) as it can get but still, it's pretty much the biggest forum for VNs in the west. And relatively troll-free, which is a huge bonus. But then again, that's a database, while this is more like a social network. The basic purpose of them is different. Not to mention, that the VNDB servers wouldn't be able to handle the amount of content, that MAL has. |
| @WStar As I said to OMA in the comments; Life > MAL Life issues forced me to put everything anime related on hold for over a month. That hasn't happened since I lost my high speed connection and went over half a year without way back in 2002-03. Ironically enough, though, the life issues at least prevented me from suffering any withdrawl symptoms. Xinil still hasn't agreed on VN's yet, I sent a message last night but unfortunately it was about half an hour after he logged off for the night. I'm trying to gauge his feelings towards VN's now that 4 years have passed and I'm pitching the idea that even if a VN section isn't feasible at the moment due to low interest, maybe they could be put in the manga section, like light novels are, and if it catches on then maybe a VN section will be possible in the future. |
| @Warfoki Most of the Japanophile trolls are on Gaia. I was a member of Gaia for years and I can vouch for the high level of trollness. The site is just too big to police. I attribute that to the fact that most other anime related websites I go to are relatively troll free, including this one. Okay, seriously? No PM's, sigs or avatars? They're forum staples all over the Internet. I didn't know forums could even survive without them in the current age. I guess having that handy database is what keeps people there. I mean, where else would they go anyway? I don't know of any other visual novel forum and I'm pretty sure it's the only English one with a sizeable database. MAL is a social database and it can't be easy to maintain physically or financially. I'm surprised that MAL can handle the amount of content it has. That's why I said I'd be willing to donate if server space is an issue. Edit: In VNDB's defence, I just discovered that I can change the theme to a Tsukihime theme. Very much liking that Hisui is now gracing my VNDB. <3 |
| For those of you who say that there is no other big forums for visual novels than vndb, are you forgetting this site or are you simply ignoring it? Quintessence said: I still have the original one as I like that one best. But yes, vndb is a database and that's about it. The forums are basically about making the database bigger and there's not much, if any, off-topic chats there. Any tries to that are quick to be locked but even then I still like the site. I can get the information I need and I can ask about things revolving around the visual novels if there's anything I'd like to have answered (for example the voice actress of one of my favorite heroines).In VNDB's defence, I just discovered that I can change the theme to a Tsukihime theme. Very much liking that Hisui is now gracing my VNDB. <3 There's not much I can add to the issue right now though. |
| The design of VNDB is minimalistic, to say the least, due to the fact, that the server is at its limit as is. VNDB doesn't allow hotlinking to images either and Yorhel is pretty reluctant to add anything that would increase the load on the server much more. Which is understandable, since basically he pays to maintain everything there: there are no advertisements or donate buttons whatsoever. |
| @Az Wow. It's funny. That site only has 2,000 users, 10x less than VNDB, yet it has more threads and posts than VNDB. What's sad though is that the site doesn't look very active in spite of that. . . As a side note. There are over 3,000 people on MAL right now. Well as a database it works. Certainly doesn't seem very user friendly though. Especially considering the complete lack of conversation. If visual novels were on MAL, though, not only would you have a working, though less detailed, database that IS user friendly, but you'd probably still be able to find out most of the roles your favorite voice actress does, and not just for visual novels, but anime too. That's the beauty of MAL. @Warfoki I have no problem with minimalism. If you look at just the anime and manga lists themselves they're pretty minimalistic as well. They're very similar in design to the VN list on VNDB. He probably should have some adds and donation buttons though. . . Footing it by himself is crazy. |
QuintessenceJan 18, 2012 7:43 AM
| Funny coincidence, there was thread just a few days back about adding seiyuus to the database. But there's one thing at least that VNDB (at its current form at least) will never has: the vast amount of members that MAL has. And what the western VN community needs the most currently is interest. Katawa Shoujo was one step in the right direction but to keep up the interest and to make the visual novel medium well-known and more than "weird porn for weird people" we need to catch the attention of the masses. And for that, a social network/database combo built around the issue is essential. And while VNDB is an excellent database (at least I've always found everything I was looking for within a minute), it lacks the ability to support an huge and active online community. So allowing VNs on MAL would be a great step towards making the visual novel medium an accepted and legit medium in the western world. |
| Well, MAL covers a much bigger area with anime and manga (which are undoubtedly much, much more popular than visual novels) and gemot accepts more off topic conversations as well as translating topics, which vndb doesn't want. Also, vndb may have 22000-something users, but most of them are only there for the database and will never post in the forums. Edit: The absolutely best thing would be to add these kinds of discussions to the vndb forum, but linking it to MAL. You access them at vndb and you write and read it at MAL, something which promotes both sites and the medium as a whole. That needs a collaboration between Yorhel and the owner of MAL though (Xinil isn't, since he sold it). |
AzathothJan 18, 2012 7:56 AM
Warfoki said: VN's in the West have been growing in popularity recently and a lot of that has to do with the massive influx of anime and manga that is being adapted from visual novels. Light novels are also growing in popularity for the same reason. Visual novels are already much more popular now than they were 4 years ago when I started this Club and I have no doubt that if VN's were on MAL then it would only boost their popularity even more.Funny coincidence, there was thread just a few days back about adding seiyuus to the database. But there's one thing at least that VNDB (at its current form at least) will never has: the vast amount of members that MAL has. And what the western VN community needs the most currently is interest. Katawa Shoujo was one step in the right direction but to keep up the interest and to make the visual novel medium well-known and more than "weird porn for weird people" we need to catch the attention of the masses. And for that, a social network/database combo built around the issue is essential. And while VNDB is an excellent database (at least I've always found everything I was looking for within a minute), it lacks the ability to support an huge and active online community. So allowing VNs on MAL would be a great step towards making the visual novel medium an accepted and legit medium in the western world. |
Azathoth said: You mean host the entries here but keep the database there?Edit: The absolutely best thing would be to add these kinds of discussions to the vndb forum, but linking it to MAL. You access them at vndb and you write and read it at MAL, something which promotes both sites and the medium as a whole. That needs a collaboration between Yorhel and the owner of MAL though (Xinil isn't, since he sold it). |
Quintessence said: True, you just need to see the user number at vndb for example. When I joined, it was increasing really slowly, but nowadays it feels like there are hundreds of people signing up every day. Poor Yorhel's wallet.VN's in the West have been growing in popularity recently and a lot of that has to do with the massive influx of anime and manga that is being adapted from visual novels. Light novels are also growing in popularity for the same reason. Visual novels are already much more popular now than they were 4 years ago when I started this Club and I have no doubt that if VN's were on MAL then it would only boost their popularity even more. Quintessence said: Yes. If MAL uses the same template, people wouldn't really notice unless they were looking in the address field.You mean host the entries here but keep the database there? |
Azathoth said: True, you just need to see the user number at vndb for example. When I joined, it was increasing really slowly, but nowadays it feels like there are hundreds of people signing up every day. Poor Yorhel's wallet. Wouldn't teaming up with MAL hurt his wallet even more? lol Azathoth said: True, though adding the visual novel list, or adding VN's in the manga section would not be the hard part. It's adding and supporting a sudden influx of up to 3,000 new entries that would be the hard part. If MAL were going to go to all the trouble of allowing VN entries then I think they'd rather have the easy database part on their site as well.Yes. If MAL uses the same template, people wouldn't really notice unless they were looking in the address field. |
| It'd hurt his wallet more, sure, but after all he's looking after promoting the site. He gets what the site was done for and moves the bandwidth-stealing spam to MAL's servers instead. Win/win situation. But if they're teaming up, MAL wouldn't need much more than a link to vndb. And I think that their information about the visual novels are good enough. |
Azathoth said: Now I'm unusre what you mean by "link". . . Link where?But if they're teaming up, MAL wouldn't need much more than a link to vndb. And I think that their information about the visual novels are good enough. |
Quintessence said: Link on the MAL page of the visual novel for further information.Azathoth said: Now I'm unusre what you mean by "link". . . Link where?But if they're teaming up, MAL wouldn't need much more than a link to vndb. And I think that their information about the visual novels are good enough. |
| @ OMA No programing would be involved. The admins would have to do that, we'd build the database, a.k.a. add entries. It'd be the same as adding an entry to anime or manga (which I have done, it's not difficult). Agreed, I think it looks weird that I have Akane Satomura on my Top 5 characters, yet the anime series she's listed under I have rated a well deserved 2. It's also weird that Hisui is there when in the anime and manga versions she doesn't even have enough lines for you to form an opinion of her. Adding VN's would certainly clear that confusion up. Adding VN's to the manga section is something that has been one of the myriad topics discussed so far. The only way this project can be realized is if an admin agrees that it could work and edits the website accordingly. First I have to get in contact with an admin, I contacted Xinil but he's yet to respond. |
Azathoth said: That would make a pretty bland entry if all the page has is a link. . .Quintessence said: Link on the MAL page of the visual novel for further information.Azathoth said: Now I'm unusre what you mean by "link". . . Link where?But if they're teaming up, MAL wouldn't need much more than a link to vndb. And I think that their information about the visual novels are good enough. |
| My vote seems pretty much like Granny's. I'd use it for sure. Building it depends on what is necessary, because I know enough website coding to know that I don't know enough website coding to help at all there. Adding to it is fine, however; I see no reason I couldn't do that. Unfortunately, donating probably wouldn't possible. I'd be more than willing to if I had money, but that never seems to be the case. |
     |
Quintessence said: Of course not. It has information like just about any anime or manga on here does, but for "further information", you'd have the link. Like for game versions and such.That would make a pretty bland entry if all the page has is a link. . . |
| I could probably donate if push comes to shove, but it depends on the amount. |
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