why is it shoujo now

@MoonSpider

I don't know about the gays in your country, but the effeminate and passive non-effeminate gays in my country say these things.

@MoonSpider Well, maybe because it’s easier for me to call the series with an abbreviated name that would be quite understandable to others.

I don't quite understand what you want to say. I just mean that this franchise is essentially a typical attempt to play to both demographics. Just because it is expected to be more popular among girls, people stereotypically think that it is full shoujo.

@Absurdo_N America. And if the feminine gay men are constantly referring to themselves as women without a hint of colloquialisms intermingled, then I truly wonder what your trans women are like in comparison.

@MoonSpider

Our trans women are very adorable in my mere opinion.

@Absurdo_N Ok?? I never implied they weren't?? When I said "I wonder what they're like in comparison", I meant as how you differentiate it at all from the way Grell addresses herself, a very unambiguous "I am a woman". Literally irrelevant to the convo, but it's not like I think there's any more to be gleamed from this for either of us anyway.

@MoonSpider

In comparison? I can't think of anything to use as a comparison, maybe one day I'll find a good comparison.

Well, what a character said or didn't say within the work doesn't matter in the end, in the end only the creator of the work (mangaka in this case) has the say that it's true about the story they created.

The mangaka has already said that he is "an effeminate gay", so that is he is a canonical gay male character.

It's not cool to call a character trans just because that specific character does things related to the opposite sex.

@Absurdo_N Therefore, we will never reach an agreement because we have an entirely different perspective on word-of-god confirmation. IMO, it doesn't matter what an author says was their intention. If they draw a cat while trying to depict a dog, guess what? It's still a cat.

"Does things related to the opposite sex" is an odd way of saying... identifies as a woman, and will loudly proclaim so. Like you're really arguing, "it's not cool to call a character trans just because they identify as the opposite gender", like what?

Word-of-god is nice for clearing up details and the thought processes within the work, but only if it doesn't actually actively contradict what they've created. And they've canonically created a trans woman, full stop.

@MoonSpider

The word that matters belongs to the creator of the work, this is the final truth, you can have headcanons, but don't disrespect the woman who created this manga, it's her words that matter when the subject is literally something she created.

This isn't about opinion about Grell's gender, this is about facts about his gender.

You're reminding me of those people who attacked JK Rowling for saying Dumbledore was gay. If she said Dumbledore is gay, it's because he is. Just because you don't like a fact in the work, it doesn't mean you can deny the fact with fantasies and want people to accept your fantasies as truth.

@Absurdo_N Quite the contrary. Unlike Black Butler, the gay Dumbledore reveal/retcon did nothing to actively contradict the source material, and therefore I accepted it very readily. In fact, any criticism I had about that reveal was largely that none of that was detailed in the actual books, or got any focus at all in the Fantastic Beast movies (if anyone still follows them). She might have made him gay retroactively, but it's not like he was characterized as a womanizer beforehand that would make it make no sense.

"The word that matters belongs to the creator of the work, this is the final truth" yeah no, that's your opinion, sorry. It's not just artist intention vs headcanons, it's artist intention vs what's actually being depicted in the series, and what's actually being depicted in the series is: a biologically male character who sees herself as a woman, will tell others that she's a woman, delusionally talks about carrying babies in the 1880s as if she were biologically a woman, and I'm sorry if that's not confirming that she identifies as a woman within the actual canon of the series idk what does.

@MoonSpider

Well, at least don't offend the woman on social media like other fans of the work who don't accept that Grell is a guy do.

@Absurdo_N For one, I don't own any socials like "X" or anything. Deleted them years ago. The closest I have is a Discord, and an old FB account to keep in touch with all the old people in my life :/

And idk what you mean by "offend the woman"... yes, I disagree with her intention with Grell, if what you've said is at all accurate, and believe she is more accurately depicting a biological man who identifies as a woman, ie a trans woman, within the canon. But I'm not making a personal issue out of it, and I like the work as a whole (as much as I can rn because I really wanna see if the manga actually sticks the landing).

I doubt she'd be offended by the pure fact that I disagree with her intended depictions of Grell, even if she was here to read what I had to say, but I wouldn't feel sorry for having the opinions I do and would moreso be disappointed at her for taking offense so easily.

Now, as for the "other fans", I'm sure the woke extremists DON'T take kindly to what amounts to her misgendering her own character, a character that is in one of the most trending anime of the 2010s and absolutely stole the show, when she herself created the counter-evidence for all to see. Especially with today's cultural sensitivity around LGBT+ identities. But I'm not on board with looking down on her or harassing her for it, and not only am I looking forward to continuing Black Butler but Twisted Wonderland looks good too.

I think I was stupid, sorry, I think I got carried away.
I better stop before I hurt someone's feelings.

@RobertBobert I wouldn't call saving time with 2 letters "abbreviated", but ok...

And I don't quite understand what YOU wanted to say? You're the one who tagged me in your first comment when we seem to pretty fully agree. I expanded on my opinions in the case that there was some misunderstanding, but overall idek why we're having this convo?

@MoonSpider If you find it uncomfortable or excessive, you can always give me a sign and end it. It's not that important to me.