Dream collab

Dieggstah said:
nah imagine if togashi collaborated with dream the minecraft YouTuber would be peak fiction incarnate

ShamankinguYoh said:
Facts. Golden era of shonen (anime in general really) was 90s-2000s. From the mid 2010s onwards everything started to go downhill.

onespankman said:

Not really. Shonen of that era are generally 50 episode monsters with inconsistent production values.

Right now the biggest names in shonen are JJK, KNY, and CSM. We’re even getting more Bleach and peak One Piece content. I wouldn’t call that going downhill.

I get the nostalgia, but I question the idea that there was ever a better time for TV anime than right now.

ShamankinguYoh said:

I’m talking about story and character quality, which is at an all time low these days. Obviously the production values are better on average, although some modern anime look substantially worse than older series due to a bland, uniform bright color palette and sometimes worse animation. Modern shonen, especially manga, is a complete forgettable disappointment compared to the iconic series of the 80s, 90s and 2000s. The industry is more successful now than ever, but that came at the cost of quality.

onespankman said:


Yeah, I just disagree with 100% of what you're saying here. Story and character quality is not at a low point now, JJK and CSM have fantastic characters. The biggest shonen right now have character writing to at least match genre classics, though their stories are written differently.

What really differentiates contemporary and 90s to early 2010s shonen storytelling is efficiency. Modern shonen generally have much less filler and much shorter arcs. In terms of character progression, those shorter arcs can work better than the extended sagas present in earlier shonen.

Take how training arcs have progressed over the years. Some current shonen still have training arcs (My Hero Academia sticks very close to past convention on that), but KNY, JJK, and CSM generally tie physical strength directly to character progression, with new techniques being mastered exclusively mid-fight. KNY does have short training arcs, but they only ever occupy a few episodes, and they don’t really give the heroes the specific tools they need to win any fight. As far as I'm concerned, that's just straightforwardly more engaging writing, and it's illustrative of newer shonen’s approach to storytelling.

The way anime is produced has completely changed since the 90s and 2000s, with almost the entire industry swapping to seasonal schedules. That obviously eliminates the need for filler episodes and increases production quality, but it also makes the works approachable.

To a new anime fan, Bleach, One Piece, and Naruto are almost literally unwatchable due to their length. People in 100 years won’t be watching One Piece, but they will probably still be able to comfortably watch Jujutsu Kaisen. Older shonen anime are works that existed for the people at the specific point they were created at, for the people in 2008 tuning in weekly. That’s a fine decision, but it means the works don’t really hold up to later critical examination.

In terms of color palettes, it's pretty difficult to argue they haven’t gotten more diverse recently. Older anime animation, particularly cel animation, generally looked a bit dull and washed out. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but I don’t see any reason to believe anime color palettes have gotten less interesting recently.

You suggest that narrative quality and financial success are inversely related, I have no idea why that idea is so pervasive. One Piece, Chainsaw Man, Jujutsu Kaisen, Hunter x Hunter, etc. reached so many people in large part because they're good, because they stuck in viewers minds enough for them to buy volumes and merchandise. Being good is one of the main ways a series sells. Success has not in any way been at the cost of quality.

That’s not to say money isn’t a corrupting force in art, but it’s one that’s been largely consistent in shonen across the last few decades.

As genres progress, they get better. That’s a pretty solid rule as far as I can tell, newer works can build on and remix the ideas of older works, and learn from the mistakes of their predecessors. They have more to work with, essentially. As long as related societal factors (such as genre popularity) stay consistent, the quality of works improves over time. That’s true of shonen, and it's true of many other genres across mediums.

Take hip hop for example. Hip hop oldheads insist the golden age was the 90s and 80s, listening to records from that time period and comparing them to modern classics, that sounds absurd to me. They’re saying that purely based on nostalgia, and I think you, and other people who love older shonen, are doing the same thing.

Sorry to reply with an essay, I just have pretty strong opinions on this. Don’t read all that if you don’t care.

ShamankinguYoh said:

I’m talking about story and character quality, which is at an all time low these days. Obviously the production values are better on average, although some modern anime look substantially worse than older series due to a bland, uniform bright color palette and sometimes worse animation. Modern shonen, especially manga, is a complete forgettable disappointment compared to the iconic series of the 80s, 90s and 2000s. The industry is more successful now than ever, but that came at the cost of quality.

ShamankinguYoh said:

Yeah, and I pretty much strongly disagree with all of that. I’ve essentially ghosted modern shonen anime because it’s had a massive drop off in the quality of its narrative and storytelling content. You’d argue that JJK, Black Clover and Demon slayer are on the same level of quality as Rurouni Kenshin, Death note, Soul Eater, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter X Hunter and many more? No way. Anime is very easily consumable now, but that’s come at the cost of narrative and character quality. Demon slayer is very popular, but it’s awful, popcorn entertainment with no depth. Because the industry became exponentially more popular, the standard of quality plummeted. When was the last time you saw a really cool, solid anime original series like Cowboy bebop, Samurai Champloo, Code Geass, Eureka 7, Gurren Lagann and others? I don’t know why a lot of people come out to defend modern anime when it’s so obviously suffering from its success.

You really think in a hundred years people are going to be watching any of this stuff? You think people will watch Demon slayer over FMAB? Black Clover over Naruto? JJK over HxH? The generic seasonal modern isekai over Gurren Lagann? No way. These series will be forgotten as soon as the next hot thing comes along. Meanwhile the classics will never be forgotten because impact and quality storytelling is timeless, something these new series sorely lack. I barely watch new anime or read manga anymore, but the few I have seen are not even close to the level of quality of the series of the golden era.

ShamankinguYoh said:
Sorry, just checked your profile, you’re about a decade younger than me and your favorites seem to reflect that. Never mind, it all makes sense lol. You do you man, enjoy what you enjoy. I’m just voicing my own opinion based on anime I’ve been watching since the mid 2000s.

Dieggstah said:
nah imagine if togashi collaborated with dream the minecraft YouTuber would be peak fiction incarnate

Dieggstah said:
nah imagine if togashi collaborated with dream the minecraft YouTuber would be peak fiction incarnate