Dulonkk said: Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing. Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry. And i can be the change i want to see. The discussion in these things is interesting to me. I dont expect large change. In this instance, there's no use crying over spilled milk. The industry isn't going to cater to the demands of international fans unless the show that they are adapting is significantly influential enough where it will be popular globally regardless of what they do: the Demon Slayers, One Pieces, and the Dragon Balls of the world are the exception to the norm in regard to the anime industry. If isekai is in demand in Japan, then there will be more isekai regardless of the cost, quality, or quantity of the medium. If the demand in Japan goes down, then you won't see isekai slop anymore. The most you should do is just watch whatever you want to watch, which I am sure you do anyway. |
ateks said: Nowhere in this tweet does it say it's not isekai ? What part of this does not say exactly that? "...I was asked many times in interviews what I thought about the current situation as a pioneer of "otherworldly" works, and each time I tried my best to explain, "SAO is a real world work, and I am not a pioneer!" |
SkyfallStar said: ateks said: Nowhere in this tweet does it say it's not isekai ? What part of this does not say exactly that? "...I was asked many times in interviews what I thought about the current situation as a pioneer of "otherworldly" works, and each time I tried my best to explain, "SAO is a real world work, and I am not a pioneer!" You didn't understand what he was trying to say. Why do western elitist always think they know Japanese better than Japanese people? So cringe. SAO is and will always be an isekai. |
MangoSamurai said: Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing. The thing is, people absolutely do see what you are putting out, and I agree with everything you said in your post. But at the same time, this is just one of those topics where I've just accepted that there will not be a change in this trend until it just dies out. Of course your post and the countless others on the laziness of the isekai genre won't do anything to change the industry, that isn't my point. What I'm saying is that we are powerless to change it and we are not the target demographic for it. That's why I said that there isn't a point in crying over spilled milk: it happened, or in this case, is happening and all we can do is clean it up and pour another glass. MangoSamurai said: I dont expect large change. Unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change either. Maybe when another trend takes its place, but then we will have the exact same discussions about X being played out, boring, indistinguishable from an AI, et. cetera. MangoSamurai said: The quality of discussion on MAL is very consistent in the sense that you will have the same people asking the most generic questions and the same people including myself commenting on it because people like to comment on the forums. I can count the amount of times that I've had a grounded conversation on the direction of the industry and that has only happened to me one time. There is substance on the forums but it is honestly pretty rare. Most people either post coal or when they don't are too emotionally invested into the argument or point that they are trying to make. And of course, there are the trolls too. I think I submit 2-3 reports a day at times and because of the forum moderator shortages, these reports are not always handled frequently. I can't really direct you anywhere else or to any specific users that will give you the conversations that you are seeking because I don't know of any better spaces.Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry. |
ateks said: You didn't understand what he was trying to say. Why do western elitist always think they know Japanese better than Japanese people? So cringe. SAO is and will always be an isekai. Whatever floats your boat. I'll stick to my definitions, if you don't mind, Mr. Western Egalitarian. |
Risa92 said: I mentioned this before in someone elses comment but i was around during the Moe boom, and during probably the best year of anime in 2011. i recognize that people look back in nostalgia or have a recency bias. Every year has shit shows and good shows. But i have never been in a period of shows that make me mistake one show for another to this extend. Im not negating Isekai completely, i do like Konosuba. I am also not negating Marvel because i did like some of them. Its more the business surrounding it. I wish light novels had more variety when interesting stuff like Spice and Wolf, Boogiepop or even Kara no Kyoukai. If you think about it, if there is any genre to experiment in, it should be light novels, out of animation and manga writing is probably the least work intensive to complete. ateks said: The same as Digimon is an isekai. If you just can log out after a few hours without any issues, it's not an isekai. Literally every single Japanese person will tell you SAO is an isekai so why do you think you know better than them? If you are transported or captured into the virtual world and your life might be in actual danger, it doesn't make a difference if the other world is made out of data or is just an alternative universe. MangoSamurai said: It kinda does have an impact on the industry, but these are more like trends that come and disappear the same way the generic battle harems etc. came and disappear in the 2000s lolI think the love of something is not negated by the fact something becomes too oversaturated. I think it just makes it less special. On the surface I can agree with your assesment its not as big of a problem in Isekai as in Marvel. But also dont forget that anime is an entirely different industry model then live actionfilm. Much more so that animators are limited, all studios have connections to each other. The fact that many isekai gets made is undoubtably having an impact on the rest of the industry, directly or indirectly, surface or under the surface. Its great that unique anime can thrive, sadly i feel not enough for my liking though. People praise the 90s, 2000s and maybe some praise the 2010s now for having more unique anime, because they can't remember everything else that has been released at that time, or they never heard of it. I'm still tired of it as well, not even of isekai as a whole, because Ascendance of a Bookworm is actually good, and Iruma-kun was pretty refreshing too imo, but of the cheap cashgrabs that barely make anything different and are written like the author isn't even human as you said. I don't know if the authors of these light novels would have been more talented or not. Maybe it's just enough for them to appeal to the minimum, but then again... what kind of artist with actual talent or someone with an actual vision would think like that. |
MangoSamurai said: Reality is more then often defined by democracy aka majority opinion. You really are too pedantic. I work with what I am given. I just don't consider virtual reality alternate and still haven't seen any compelling arguments for it besides marketing slogans and "democratic" language. Besides, if the author himself says it's not an isekai, why should I claim otherwise. |
Dulonkk said: I wish i had some decent anime board or forum with people who had a little bit more experience with a variety of titles, interest in the industry. People i can bounce my thoughts and ideas from. That would be fantastic. In the meantime until i found such a space MAL should do decently enough. MangoSamurai said: Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing. The thing is, people absolutely do see what you are putting out, and I agree with everything you said in your post. But at the same time, this is just one of those topics where I've just accepted that there will not be a change in this trend until it just dies out. Of course your post and the countless others on the laziness of the isekai genre won't do anything to change the industry, that isn't my point. What I'm saying is that we are powerless to change it and we are not the target demographic for it. That's why I said that there isn't a point in crying over spilled milk: it happened, or in this case, is happening and all we can do is clean it up and pour another glass. MangoSamurai said: I dont expect large change. Unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change either. Maybe when another trend takes its place, but then we will have the exact same discussions about X being played out, boring, indistinguishable from an AI, et. cetera. MangoSamurai said: The quality of discussion on MAL is very consistent in the sense that you will have the same people asking the most generic questions and the same people including myself commenting on it because people like to comment on the forums. I can count the amount of times that I've had a grounded conversation on the direction of the industry and that has only happened to me one time. There is substance on the forums but it is honestly pretty rare. Most people either post coal or when they don't are too emotionally invested into the argument or point that they are trying to make. And of course, there are the trolls too. I think I submit 2-3 reports a day at times and because of the forum moderator shortages, these reports are not always handled frequently. I can't really direct you anywhere else or to any specific users that will give you the conversations that you are seeking because I don't know of any better spaces.Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry. |
SkyfallStar said: I work with what I am given. I just don't consider virtual reality alternate and still haven't seen any compelling arguments for it besides marketing slogans and "democratic" language. I agree with your stance on virtual reality not conducing an isekai in the context of SAO. In SAO, Kirito, Asuna, and the rest of the characters all still have an active connection to the real world that they are not removed from. It isn't like an isekai where they actively are reincarnated, transported, or travel to another world separated from Earth, and this is because they have investment into the real world and can log off from the numerous metaverses which they exist within. The only part of SAO which can be potentially be argued as an isekai is the very beginning where everyone is trapped and can experience permadeath. Even so, the original SAO is still connected to the real world through its servers and world data, the connection to the real world is never broken. However, I think that SAO serves as one of the most prominent influences to many modern isekais that we see released seasonally. The fantasy setting, the gamification, quests, magic, and all of the other elements that make SAO are prominent influences to these generic isekai shows that we see. That does not make SAO an isekai anime, but it does make SAO an influence or a reference and a cultural barometer to where Japan was at the time SAO started publishing and circulating. The popularity of games such as the Dragon Quest series, the popularity of SAO, and the commonality between SAO and the many trope-filled isekais which came after it aren't a coincidence. So, to me, my stance on SAO is that it isn't an isekai but it was influential to many which came after it for popularizing many of the tropes that we see within them. Escapism sells no matter how you dress it up. |
SkyfallStar said: You are arguing stupid semantics it doesnt matter what the author says, Wikipedia includes virtual worlds similarly to actually completely other realms outside of technology. For all intents and purposes SAO is an isekai.. why? Well because every single person looking for an isekai will do so because they want a story about surviving in an alternative world. SAO gives that world to them. Not particularly well i might add. The label is perfectly fine. the language of the majority of people decide whenever it will be catagorized as. Tomatoes are fruits yet because they are savory they are mostly considered vegetables. Why? because that is what most people understand the two catagories to mean. Im sure you use the exact same language, but im not policing you on it. Certainly not with a pretencious tone you are doing. Technicality is not important when other labels are far more clearer.MangoSamurai said: Reality is more then often defined by democracy aka majority opinion. You really are too pedantic. I work with what I am given. I just don't consider virtual reality alternate and still haven't seen any compelling arguments for it besides marketing slogans and "democratic" language. Besides, if the author himself says it's not an isekai, why should I claim otherwise. |
| "I hate Isekai" take number 400. The studio, publishers know what JP folks want. And I can't blame them for it. Like where were you guys complaining about how many battle harems shows copied themselves because they were inspired how popular Infinite Stratos was. It boils backs to my first sentence, the higher-ups know what the audience wants. When the next trend comes in due time we will have threads like how ______ has become AI. |
| We're soon getting there with isekai |
 Maybe try sleeping? |
GalacticMagna said: "I hate Isekai" take number 400. Not enough that people are shamed for it yet, sadly |
| Isekai has turned into a battle of premises, where authors try to find the most unique premise possible and then follow the same path as always. "My character was transported to a fantasy world, but he brought his Nintendo Switch with him." Two episodes later, the character is already overpowered, has a harem, and will try to save that world he barely knows, but already loves. |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Kafka, Fu Xuan, Jingliu, Topaz and Huohuo. |
Dulonkk said: However, I think that SAO serves as one of the most prominent influences to many modern isekais that we see released seasonally. The fantasy setting, the gamification, quests, magic, and all of the other elements that make SAO are prominent influences to these generic isekai shows that we see. That does not make SAO an isekai anime, but it does make SAO an influence or a reference and a cultural barometer to where Japan was at the time SAO started publishing and circulating. The popularity of games such as the Dragon Quest series, the popularity of SAO, and the commonality between SAO and the many trope-filled isekais which came after it aren't a coincidence. So, to me, my stance on SAO is that it isn't an isekai but it was influential to many which came after it for popularizing many of the tropes that we see within them. Escapism sells no matter how you dress it up. I agree with this to an extent as well. At it's cored it did most definetely inspire escapistic stories that just happen quite often to be isekais. But one thing many people confuse that the main influence was actually promoting light novels to anime adaptation scene as being the first major success in that kind of work. There are already were some amount of similiar stories written before or in parallel with SAO, but SAO got all the "praise" for popularizing those ideas. Though, I would say that the fantasy elements you listed are more thanks to whole JRPG market and what Japanese gamers like. It just happens that a lot of these things aligned with SAO's setting. And isekai elements should be attoned more to Mushoku Tensei that introduced us to a lot of tropes and even isekai truck. |
MangoSamurai said: You are arguing stupid semantics it doesnt matter what the author says, Wikipedia includes virtual worlds similarly to actually completely other realms outside of technology. For all intents and purposes SAO is an isekai.. why? Well because every single person looking for an isekai will do so because they want a story about surviving in an alternative world. SAO gives that world to them. Not particularly well i might add. The label is perfectly fine. the language of the majority of people decide whenever it will be catagorized as. Tomatoes are fruits yet because they are savory they are mostly considered vegetables. Why? because that is what most people understand the two catagories to mean. Im sure you use the exact same language, but im not policing you on it. Certainly not with a pretencious tone you are doing. Technicality is not important when other labels are far more clearer. I am sorry for being strict about definitions and their usage. Next time I'll consult the majority opinion before engaging in discussions. |
MangoSamurai said: If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment.EdgyLord666 said: My dude here actually blame the fans because they are buying stuffs they love. Bruh how many anime you watch every season? If you actually watch 40+ then I can kinda understand to complain about a quarter of them being samey trashy isekai. People always try to gatekeep legitimate complaints. "You cant complain about the 40 plus shit anime on every seasonal chart if you havent seen any of them". Yes i can, this isnt high school debate club. People will spend thousands on Gatcha games, you think thats ok too? or do those people might have a problem with crippling anxiety? Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it? |
EdgyLord666 said: Your counter argument against my original post was that unless i watch 40+ shows it shouldnt matter? New anime fans always do this, if someone criticizes a thing they love their first instinct or argument is to say unless you dont fully know something then you cant criticise it. Ive seen this so much. But something you love is not just free from criticism, it anything you should critize more, because you want the best for that specific thing. MangoSamurai said: If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment.People always try to gatekeep legitimate complaints. "You cant complain about the 40 plus shit anime on every seasonal chart if you havent seen any of them". Yes i can, this isnt high school debate club. People will spend thousands on Gatcha games, you think thats ok too? or do those people might have a problem with crippling anxiety? Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it? The fact is that it is almost impossible to watch everything seasonally unless you watch everything 2x speed. And really, you dont need to know the entirely painted picture. If around 1/4th or more of the industry is taken up by repetitive series that stagnate studios is not an issue to you, then fine. But are we not on the same side? The end goal is better anime for every fan. To me it is important that all these amazing artists should be able to work on different work then Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl. I value it as a medium that has so much lost potential. |
| I mean, obviously. Most stuff is mediocre, so AI produces mostly the same mediocre content. |
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MangoSamurai said: Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable.EdgyLord666 said: Your counter argument against my original post was that unless i watch 40+ shows it shouldnt matter? New anime fans always do this, if someone criticizes a thing they love their first instinct or argument is to say unless you dont fully know something then you cant criticise it. Ive seen this so much. But something you love is not just free from criticism, it anything you should critize more, because you want the best for that specific thing. If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment. Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it? The fact is that it is almost impossible to watch everything seasonally unless you watch everything 2x speed. And really, you dont need to know the entirely painted picture. If around 1/4th or more of the industry is taken up by repetitive series that stagnate studios is not an issue to you, then fine. But are we not on the same side? The end goal is better anime for every fan. To me it is important that all these amazing artists should be able to work on different work then Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl. I value it as a medium that has so much lost potential. Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want? Btw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched. |
MangoSamurai said: Dulonkk said: Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing. Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry. And i can be the change i want to see. The discussion in these things is interesting to me. I dont expect large change. In this instance, there's no use crying over spilled milk. The industry isn't going to cater to the demands of international fans unless the show that they are adapting is significantly influential enough where it will be popular globally regardless of what they do: the Demon Slayers, One Pieces, and the Dragon Balls of the world are the exception to the norm in regard to the anime industry. If isekai is in demand in Japan, then there will be more isekai regardless of the cost, quality, or quantity of the medium. If the demand in Japan goes down, then you won't see isekai slop anymore. The most you should do is just watch whatever you want to watch, which I am sure you do anyway. Howly crap more than one brain cell. One of the best parts of Thus Spake Zarathustra is where he accuses man of pretending its situation is simply inevitable, and teaching instead that we brought it about: The past of man to redeem, and every "It was" to transform, until the Will saith: "But so did I will it! So shall I will it—" —This did I call redemption. Like the law tables Zarathustra makes fun of, we act as if some democratic/capitalist invisible hand is inevitable in the art that gets made, when really we've made it this way ourselves—and it can be changed. You're the only person besides me I've seen make this point about anime. As to AI, the similarity you've noticed is real, because our way of selecting and producing art for the masses is indeed a kind of intellectual algorithm with various feedback mechanisms: That which is popular and gets money is made more of, which in turn affects what will be popular and what what will make money in the future. In running the algorithm we've fallen into an isekai potential well, a formula that optimizes money and popularity. It's precisely a more abstract version of an AI that gets trained on a set of input and learns to produce an optimized output, in that the things doing the training, inventing the metric, and such are human brains in an industry rather than programs looking at word counts and correlations and diagonalizing huge matrices. We invented this intellectual technology of production; we subject our creative brains and wills to this anime-formulating algorithm, when we could very well do it differently if we wanted. Even tweaking the optimized output just slightly would be far more interesting than what we get now; this is exactly what School Days did: By giving us the bad end of the dating sim, it showed us precisely that the narrative choices anime make are choices, and that perhaps the choices we usually make are bad ones. Thinking about it this must be why I'm constantly wishing standard genre installments end up breaking a rule or two, hence why I want the maid to headshot Holmes in Undead Murder Farce—we've got enough detective genre mess; what we need is to mock the mess. But "nobody" wants that, so "it won't sell," so we don't get it. Really what that is is an insistence we all remain boring: All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man? |
auroralooseAug 5, 2023 1:09 PM
| Te occidere possunt sed te edere non possunt nefas est |
Better for them! Is it better to wallow in the mud? What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Superman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes. Even the wisest among you is only a disharmony and hybrid of plant and phantom. But do I bid you become phantoms or plants? Lo, I teach you the Superman! |
| Te occidere possunt sed te edere non possunt nefas est |
EdgyLord666 said: MangoSamurai said: Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable.Your counter argument against my original post was that unless i watch 40+ shows it shouldnt matter? New anime fans always do this, if someone criticizes a thing they love their first instinct or argument is to say unless you dont fully know something then you cant criticise it. Ive seen this so much. But something you love is not just free from criticism, it anything you should critize more, because you want the best for that specific thing. The fact is that it is almost impossible to watch everything seasonally unless you watch everything 2x speed. And really, you dont need to know the entirely painted picture. If around 1/4th or more of the industry is taken up by repetitive series that stagnate studios is not an issue to you, then fine. But are we not on the same side? The end goal is better anime for every fan. To me it is important that all these amazing artists should be able to work on different work then Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl. I value it as a medium that has so much lost potential. Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want? Iso, MitsuoBtw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched. EdgyLord666 said: People like to believe they know better, but thats far from the truth. With the amount of information available online people hardly limit themselves. As said in Yasuo Otsuka's (in Joy in Motion documentary): "Some entertainment is slick but empty, I hope you will be discriminating consumers". People should be againt uninspiring types of media, useless bs click bait or awful tiktoks, what makes them think its worth my attention?. During the time of watching these things, everything seems fine but deep down most people know its a waste of time compared to actually watching art which has inspiration behind it. Your attention’s a valuable thing and if this is concidered gatekeeping im completely fine with it.MangoSamurai said: Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable.Your counter argument against my original post was that unless i watch 40+ shows it shouldnt matter? New anime fans always do this, if someone criticizes a thing they love their first instinct or argument is to say unless you dont fully know something then you cant criticise it. Ive seen this so much. But something you love is not just free from criticism, it anything you should critize more, because you want the best for that specific thing. The fact is that it is almost impossible to watch everything seasonally unless you watch everything 2x speed. And really, you dont need to know the entirely painted picture. If around 1/4th or more of the industry is taken up by repetitive series that stagnate studios is not an issue to you, then fine. But are we not on the same side? The end goal is better anime for every fan. To me it is important that all these amazing artists should be able to work on different work then Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl. I value it as a medium that has so much lost potential. Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want? Btw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched. My bad if i called you a noobie though, but that arguments just reminds me of what every single anime fan says in their first phase of finding the medium. |
Risa92 said: Wow, the first sentence of the synopsis alone made it more unique than most isekai stories....You are not that wrong, but ChatGPT wrote me a better isekai than any harem isekai that came out lately. User Hey Chatgpt, write me an isekai ChatGPT Sure, here's a brief concept for an isekai story: Title: "Realm Reborn: Chronicles of Elysia" Synopsis: In the bustling metropolis of modern-day Tokyo, a group of five friends stumble upon an ancient artifact in an obscure antique shop. When they unwittingly activate the artifact during a playful dare, they find themselves transported to a fantastical realm known as Elysia. Elysia is a realm of magic, mythical creatures, and sprawling landscapes. The group discovers that they each possess unique abilities tied to the elements: fire, water, earth, air, and spirit. These abilities mark them as "Elemental Travelers," destined to restore balance to Elysia, which is plagued by a growing darkness threatening to consume the realm. Guided by an enigmatic oracle, the friends embark on a journey to master their newfound powers, forge alliances with the diverse inhabitants of Elysia, and unravel the mysteries of the artifact that brought them there. Along the way, they face treacherous challenges, encounter memorable allies and adversaries, and ultimately learn that their connection with Elysia runs deeper than they ever imagined. As they strive to protect their new home, the friends must also navigate personal growth, unexpected romance, and the profound impact they have on a world unlike any they've ever known. "Realm Reborn: Chronicles of Elysia" is an isekai adventure that combines friendship, magic, and self-discovery in a captivating and enchanting tale. I think these authors should just start using ChatGPT from now on. |
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EdgyLord666 said: You realize gacha is actively killing the video game market...right? Like every single player and even MMO is getting phased out by gacha games.MangoSamurai said: If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment.People always try to gatekeep legitimate complaints. "You cant complain about the 40 plus shit anime on every seasonal chart if you havent seen any of them". Yes i can, this isnt high school debate club. People will spend thousands on Gatcha games, you think thats ok too? or do those people might have a problem with crippling anxiety? Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it? |
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auroraloose said: Thank you for appriciating my writings and your great response.MangoSamurai said: Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing. Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry. And i can be the change i want to see. The discussion in these things is interesting to me. I dont expect large change. Howly crap more than one brain cell. One of the best parts of Thus Spake Zarathustra is where he accuses man of pretending its situation is simply inevitable, and teaching instead that we brought it about: The past of man to redeem, and every "It was" to transform, until the Will saith: "But so did I will it! So shall I will it—" —This did I call redemption. Like the law tables Zarathustra makes fun of, we act as if some democratic/capitalist invisible hand is inevitable in the art that gets made, when really we've made it this way ourselves—and it can be changed. You're the only person besides me I've seen make this point about anime. As to AI, the similarity you've noticed is real, because our way of selecting and producing art for the masses is indeed a kind of intellectual algorithm with various feedback mechanisms: That which is popular and gets money is made more of, which in turn affects what will be popular and what what will make money in the future. In running the algorithm we've fallen into an isekai potential well, a formula that optimizes money and popularity. It's precisely a more abstract version of an AI that gets trained on a set of input and learns to produce an optimized output, in that the things doing the training, inventing the metric, and such are human brains in an industry rather than programs looking at word counts and correlations and diagonalizing huge matrices. We invented this intellectual technology of production; we subject our creative brains and wills to this anime-formulating algorithm, when we could very well do it differently if we wanted. Even tweaking the optimized output just slightly would be far more interesting than what we get now; this is exactly what School Days did: By giving us the bad end of the dating sim, it showed us precisely that the narrative choices anime make are choices, and that perhaps the choices we usually make are bad ones. Thinking about it this must be why I'm constantly wishing standard genre installments end up breaking a rule or two, hence why I want the maid to headshot Holmes in Undead Murder Farce—we've got enough detective genre mess; what we need is to mock the mess. But "nobody" wants that, so "it won't sell," so we don't get it. Really what that is is an insistence we all remain boring: All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man? Two expendatures like money and time spend on a mediocre anime is a validation of the products existence. I think that most people are part of the cycle are not aware of its existence and if they are they simply do not care. Which can probably be attributed to age and a new generation When it comes to age i was not to asimilar to criticizing people who made actual decent arguments against the status quo of anime tropes. And most who pertain this attitude into adulthood seem rarely to veer of into different mediums, foreign cinema, books etc. Secondly the internet generation obviously disruped this loop into something different then it was before. The idea that anime for example fan reception stayed the same from the 80s until now would be ridiculous. I think its more then obvious then ever. 20 years ago remakes of popular 80s ips would seem like fan fare. However now are a mainstay in popular culture. In the past you could get away with creators convincing studios of a successful product without knowing fan reaction for days or weeks after its airing. Daring products could get made that way. Now more then ever fans are in charge of what will get made or not, and sadly they are not discriminating watchers. They just seem to consume about everything. I added you as a friend request. |
| Ryo-San started the trend and now everyone can see why isekai sucks. |
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MangoSamurai said: Accepted, and you're welcome. I generally don't say much around here, so I don't know how much you'll get out of our virtual friendship, but given the thread I made recently that might change. auroraloose said: Thank you for appriciating my writings and your great response.Howly crap more than one brain cell. One of the best parts of Thus Spake Zarathustra is where he accuses man of pretending its situation is simply inevitable, and teaching instead that we brought it about: Like the law tables Zarathustra makes fun of, we act as if some democratic/capitalist invisible hand is inevitable in the art that gets made, when really we've made it this way ourselves—and it can be changed. You're the only person besides me I've seen make this point about anime. As to AI, the similarity you've noticed is real, because our way of selecting and producing art for the masses is indeed a kind of intellectual algorithm with various feedback mechanisms: That which is popular and gets money is made more of, which in turn affects what will be popular and what what will make money in the future. In running the algorithm we've fallen into an isekai potential well, a formula that optimizes money and popularity. It's precisely a more abstract version of an AI that gets trained on a set of input and learns to produce an optimized output, in that the things doing the training, inventing the metric, and such are human brains in an industry rather than programs looking at word counts and correlations and diagonalizing huge matrices. We invented this intellectual technology of production; we subject our creative brains and wills to this anime-formulating algorithm, when we could very well do it differently if we wanted. Even tweaking the optimized output just slightly would be far more interesting than what we get now; this is exactly what School Days did: By giving us the bad end of the dating sim, it showed us precisely that the narrative choices anime make are choices, and that perhaps the choices we usually make are bad ones. Thinking about it this must be why I'm constantly wishing standard genre installments end up breaking a rule or two, hence why I want the maid to headshot Holmes in Undead Murder Farce—we've got enough detective genre mess; what we need is to mock the mess. But "nobody" wants that, so "it won't sell," so we don't get it. Really what that is is an insistence we all remain boring: Two expendatures like money and time spend on a mediocre anime is a validation of the products existence. I think that most people are part of the cycle are not aware of its existence and if they are they simply do not care. Which can probably be attributed to age and a new generation When it comes to age i was not to asimilar to criticizing people who made actual decent arguments against the status quo of anime tropes. And most who pertain this attitude into adulthood seem rarely to veer of into different mediums, foreign cinema, books etc. Secondly the internet generation obviously disruped this loop into something different then it was before. The idea that anime for example fan reception stayed the same from the 80s until now would be ridiculous. I think its more then obvious then ever. 20 years ago remakes of popular 80s ips would seem like fan fare. However now are a mainstay in popular culture. In the past you could get away with creators convincing studios of a successful product without knowing fan reaction for days or weeks after its airing. Daring products could get made that way. Now more then ever fans are in charge of what will get made or not, and sadly they are not discriminating watchers. They just seem to consume about everything. I added you as a friend request. |
| Te occidere possunt sed te edere non possunt nefas est |
auroraloose said: Yes, I do it 8 hours a day, I call it sleeping tho.Better for them! Is it better to wallow in the mud? MangoSamurai said: Now that's understandable, it's not hard to just say "I want others to enjoy what I believe as good entertainments". Well, isekai is not just your problem then.EdgyLord666 said: Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable. Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want? Iso, MitsuoBtw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched. EdgyLord666 said: People like to believe they know better, but thats far from the truth. With the amount of information available online people hardly limit themselves. As said in Yasuo Otsuka's (in Joy in Motion documentary): "Some entertainment is slick but empty, I hope you will be discriminating consumers". People should be againt uninspiring types of media, useless bs click bait or awful tiktoks, what makes them think its worth my attention?. During the time of watching these things, everything seems fine but deep down most people know its a waste of time compared to actually watching art which has inspiration behind it. Your attention’s a valuable thing and if this is concidered gatekeeping im completely fine with it.Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable. Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want? Btw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched. My bad if i called you a noobie though, but that arguments just reminds me of what every single anime fan says in their first phase of finding the medium. DGemu said: No, Gacha games is video games.EdgyLord666 said: You realize gacha is actively killing the video game market...right? Like every single player and even MMO is getting phased out by gacha games.If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment. Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it? |
MangoSamurai said: The idea you need to make people enjoy stuff they don't like at the moment because you don't like current trends is entitled though. Who are you to decide what "art" is (I hate the idea of associating terms like cinema or art with some factor of quality). Plus it's easy to say these decades were so amazing with such risk taking shows. Yeah the industry back then wasn't just Monster and Mushishi it was also Love Hina and DearS. Shows that were catering to the "lowest denominator" just like isekai. I want more mil dramas again. I would love sci fi and mecha to return but it's a business I get that. I will go to where I am being best served. If I can't get sci fi and war dramas here I go to other mediums like novel fiction. That's why I am here in the first place instead of watching primarily Western animation.delirific said: Obviously if there is a demand there is going to be a supply for it. One of the anime directors of Vinland Saga directly said the anime industry is not creative. And like i said in my original comment, its hard to blame the studios for this, much more so the fans (and Gigguk). It is probably very hard and hard to make people enjoy things outside of their comfort zone but i feel it is quite important. I personally view Anime more like a form of cinema then pure entertainment. Which is why my favorite time frame of anime releases was around 1995 and 2005. So many different risks were taken, unique styles and new directors were given chances. I am only hoping to continue that. Isekai fans stands in direct contrast with my idea of what i think anime should strive for. I don't think isekai is at fault here though. The studios making these would just make generic low effort stuff of another genre instead if isekai wasn't so popular. It's just that they were more spread out across different genres before, but that doesn't really mean there were less of them in total. Personally I find the complaining about isekai more annoying than the trend. I barely watch modern isekai. I think in the last six years I have only given a handful a try some good like (Re Zero and Konosuba) some not so good (Shield Hero, Overlord and Death March). I don't like how a lot of Japanese writers take on typical DnD plots so I don't actively look for them unless they get a lot of praise (and end up actually being quite good like Frieren). I enjoy anime for what it does have and I will go to actually good fantasy writers like Jordan or Sanderson. Guess what I still have way more seasonals than I know what to do with from a variety of genres. Fair if you feel that way but to me it's just another back in my day take that I don't really see. People overfocus on isekai but man you know how many shows that were received decently well or other highly anticipated titles I could name that aren't isekai? Tons. You can make any decade look amazing if you only focus on that. Plus again what right does anyone have to determine what "cinema" is. Lots of isekai fans enjoy the genre and they are fair to. If you don't like it then you got to market what you like better. Because that is what this discussion actually is about. Here is the thing nothing about Vinland Saga, Monster even Mushishi is that creative. Sure of course I think it's way better executed than many isekai but you could do that within the isekai genre as well. |
BilboBaggins365Aug 6, 2023 2:08 AM
BilboBaggins365 said: MangoSamurai said: The idea you need to make people enjoy stuff they don't like at the moment because you don't like current trends is entitled though. Who are you to decide what "art" is (I hate the idea of associating terms like cinema or art with some factor of quality). Plus it's easy to say these decades were so amazing with such risk taking shows. Yeah the industry back then wasn't just Monster and Mushishi it was also Love Hina and DearS. Shows that were catering to the "lowest denominator" just like isekai. I want more mil dramas again. I would love sci fi and mecha to return but it's a business I get that. I will go to where I am being best served. If I can't get sci fi and war dramas here I go to other mediums like novel fiction. That's why I am here in the first place instead of watching primarily Western animation.Obviously if there is a demand there is going to be a supply for it. One of the anime directors of Vinland Saga directly said the anime industry is not creative. And like i said in my original comment, its hard to blame the studios for this, much more so the fans (and Gigguk). It is probably very hard and hard to make people enjoy things outside of their comfort zone but i feel it is quite important. I personally view Anime more like a form of cinema then pure entertainment. Which is why my favorite time frame of anime releases was around 1995 and 2005. So many different risks were taken, unique styles and new directors were given chances. I am only hoping to continue that. Isekai fans stands in direct contrast with my idea of what i think anime should strive for. Personally I find the complaining about isekai more annoying than the trend. I barely watch modern isekai. I think in the last six years I have only given a handful a try some good like (Re Zero and Konosuba) some not so good (Shield Hero, Overlord and Death March). I don't like how a lot of Japanese writers take on typical DnD plots so I don't actively look for them unless they get a lot of praise (and end up actually being quite good like Frieren). I enjoy anime for what it does have and I will go to actually good fantasy writers like Jordan or Sanderson. Guess what I still have way more seasonals than I know what to do with from a variety of genres. Fair if you feel that way but to me it's just another back in my day take that I don't really see. People overfocus on isekai but man you know how many shows that were received decently well or other highly anticipated titles I could name that aren't isekai? Tons. You can make any decade look amazing if you only focus on that. Plus again what right does anyone have to determine what "cinema" is. Lots of isekai fans enjoy the genre and they are fair to. If you don't like it then you got to market what you like better. Because that is what this discussion actually is about. Here is the thing nothing about Vinland Saga, Monster even Mushishi is that creative. Sure of course I think it's way better executed than many isekai but you could do that within the isekai genre as well. Ask yourself why are Isekai shows made in the first place? Engagement right? You said it yourself "people overfocus of Isekai'. So with a feedback loop that is what will get made, in return those shows will get more funding, in return more people engage with it, and now what.. you are stuck in a lull. With almost the impossibility for any sort of different media compete. I am anti monopoly. Your direct engagement or complience leads to the failure or prominence of shows to return. That is in fact why i am criticizing fans. the question is less "who are you to decide what cinema is" and moreso: "why are you spending your time on, and if you do - do so wisely". People are unaware the power they posses. Why would i be critical of people who watch shorts all day? Because it affects me in the end and an entire market. I am not saying i know best, i am saying go out there and explore for yourself. Also There is a reason why Vinland Saga, Monster even Mushishi are critically acclaimed, they defy the majority of any anime tropes, and they deserve to ge treated with respect because of it. Isekai can be good, but they are not, they arent because thats not whats valued in the feedback loop i mentioned before. What gets popularity is the same cliche tropes over and over again. The issue isnt with Isekai, it lies much larger. The same are all true in Superhero movies. They could be great but momentarily in culture they inspire nothing but mediocrity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLNuqYgmwS0. There are artist working decades perfecting their craft only for conglomorates to create market testtubes for the masses to swep i up and you think thats a fair fight. Its not, it doesnt have to be. But it could be. |
| supply and demand 101 people like trashes like these shows so they create , and they make money out of people who enjoy while rest of you just whine, so i recommend cleansing of anime community |
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| Your point is flawed as we haven't seen any anime written by AI yet, so we can't compare the two. |
SkyfallStar said: SAO inspired this whole genre of isekai. Can't count how many copypasted kirito MCs I've seenMangoSamurai said: yea why mention one of the most influential isekai anime 🤓 Do you happen to know the definition of isekai or are your thoughts also machine learning powered? |
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| Well if Ai can write a decent Isekai IDGAF, Just praying some Japanese writers dont lost their job |
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MangoSamurai said: They may be critically acclaimed, but I would wager that Monster and Mushishi do not interest the average person. What little I saw of Vinland Saga had more anime tropes.Also There is a reason why Vinland Saga, Monster even Mushishi are critically acclaimed, they defy the majority of any anime tropes, and they deserve to ge treated with respect because of it. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| Honestly a great comparison. Idk how some users on here can stand watching modern isekais back to back. I've only seen a few and they've gotten me quickly ready to jump ship or take a long break with how eerily identical they are to each other. |
| "Of what worth is a king who fails to protect the powerless?" —Saber, Fate/Zero |
| Sonny Boy, an isekai, was better written than most modern anime. There are always going to be exceptions like that, main reason to watch the isekai genre is to find those. |
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Risa92 said: I have never heard of Birds of Prey, but I do agree that critics are close minded. They all bent over backwards looking for hidden meanings in The Lord of the Rings, because they couldn't accept that a man as educated as Tolkien would write fantasy for entertainment. Another professional reviewer complained that Year of the Griffin didn't properly follow the magic school template established in Harry Potter.That goes for movies and novels too. Remember when those professional critics trashed on Birds of Prey for example, because they didn't understand its message... ultimately because they didn't care for it or felt annoyed by it, if they understood. Risa92 said: This too. If you read a lot of manga by Tezuka, you'll see that Kodansha near exclusively translates the "super serious seinen" type. But if you check Tezuka's website, you'll see the majority of his stories belong to other genres.You see how most so called critically acclaimed anime are also the super serious seinen type https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/science-fiction https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/adventure-fantasy https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/horror-mystery Readers interested in the diversity of Tezuka's works must turn to other publishers or even scanlations. https://emanga.com/collections/osamu-tezuka |
| その目だれの目？ |
petran79 said: That's exactly what Demon Slayer is.You will not see the big shonen |
| その目だれの目？ |
| I like how you use some literary reversal with the phrase "The genre is not expanding outwards but inwards" that is a neat philosophical statement. I wish more people thought and wrote that way. Yes I agree; with this genre I believe one of the recent last seasons I wrote (either ranting on here or in a preliminary review) that after Farming Life In Another World, I was done with the genre and abandoning it. So far I have not gone back on my word- not that I've even been tempted to. Although I agree- you said something about talented writers and manga creators- and I would say that even here, the rot has set in. Most manga (from a glance) are not made by artists struggling with pencils and paper anymore, but on computers using template programs (Manga Studio is one I know but there are surely many others) and this is hardly different from using a word-generator to write a script. Whether the idea behind anime is derivative and repetitive: the actual appearance of it is as well. Throughout the whole industry, creativity is being drowned out by repetitive trash churned out by machinery for the waiting mouths of an increasingly uncritical audience. |
| Isekai has even AI in its name. IsekAI. Coincidence? I don't think so... |
zerokarasu said: MangoSamurai said: more like the garbage that start the trash isekai "trend" that exist nowadays.yea why mention one of the most influential isekai anime 🤓 TRASH ISEKAI is trash because they are intentionally written to be like that,no i'm not joking,those author can do better they just won't do it because trash is well supposed to be trash. i'm not gonna spoil much but if u dont believe this,go watch tsuki ga kiirei,there is a scene where the mc when the show will joke( and telling the truth) about why these isekai is trash and they are doing it on purpose. Risa92 said: I think any critic of any sort of relevance or quality should be able to multifaceted nature of art. The fact that there is a lack of representation in your opinion by female critics can be entirely changed if women themselves, especially with the advent of the internet. I still see too many unexperienced anxiety ridden "man of culture" anime reviews that bore me to tears however. As if anime is the only for of art they consume. Ultimately i think this is an entirely different discussion but my mention of Vinland and Mushishi do not represent all the highs and variety that anime has to offer. Seinen is a part of that, i ulitmately think that anime being more like anime is probably not a big deal but when so many elements are ingrained that you can basically tell the entirety of a light novel adaptation by its cover, we have stepped a little too far. Limitations arent bad but those limitations always being the same isnt healthy either. MangoSamurai said: Okay here I have to disagree and go on a little feminist rant too: Most "professionals critics" are men in such fields, at least those whose opinions are taken serious. Also those are often the type of older, more close-minded guys. Also There is a reason why Vinland Saga, Monster even Mushishi are critically acclaimed, they defy the majority of any anime tropes, and they deserve to ge treated with respect because of it. Isekai can be good, but they are not, they arent because thats not whats valued in the feedback loop i mentioned before. What gets popularity is the same cliche tropes over and over again. The issue isnt with Isekai, it lies much larger. The same are all true in Superhero movies. They could be great but momentarily in culture they inspire nothing but mediocrity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLNuqYgmwS0. There are artist working decades perfecting their craft only for conglomorates to create market testtubes for the masses to swep i up and you think thats a fair fight. Its not, it doesnt have to be. But it could be. That goes for movies and novels too. Remember when those professional critics trashed on Birds of Prey for example, because they didn't understand its message... ultimately because they didn't care for it or felt annoyed by it, if they understood. I've seen an interview with German critics, who trashtalked a book written by a single mother, because it was too boring and "simpleton" reading about her struggles as a single mother working and trying to find time for her kids, it wasn't "intellectual and philosphical enough" for them. You see how most so called critically acclaimed anime are also the super serious seinen type and I really like Vinland Saga and Mushishi, (Monster was a bit of a mixed bag for me maybe yet I still like it a lot), but it lacks a lot of variety in what critics would call good. Ultimately they praise anime that are not written like an anime too much and while it's depending on your taste, if you like your anime to be more written like western series or not, it's not wrong for anime to BE more of a "typical" anime. You still can use these elements creatively and you have the freedom of expression with animation, so you can go over the top with it for a creative purpose. Ask yourself why are Isekai shows made in the first place? Engagement right? You said it yourself "people overfocus of Isekai'. So with a feedback loop that is what will get made, in return those shows will get more funding, in return more people engage with it, and now what.. you are stuck in a lull. With almost the impossibility for any sort of different media compete. I am anti monopoly. Your direct engagement or complience leads to the failure or prominence of shows to return. That is in fact why i am criticizing fans. the question is less "who are you to decide what cinema is" and moreso: "why are you spending your time on, and if you do - do so wisely". Here I disagree again, because I think it's nobody's place to tell other people how to spend their time or what they should consume or shouldn't.People are unaware the power they posses. Why would i be critical of people who watch shorts all day? Because it affects me in the end and an entire market. Instead of putting the dogma of "don't watch those isekai" on people, rather try to get them excited for other shows too. Risa92 said: Okay here I have to disagree and go on a little feminist rant too: Most "professionals critics" are men in such fields, at least those whose opinions are taken serious. Also those are often the type of older, more close-minded guys. That goes for movies and novels too. Remember when those professional critics trashed on Birds of Prey for example, because they didn't understand its message... ultimately because they didn't care for it or felt annoyed by it, if they understood. I've seen an interview with German critics, who trashtalked a book written by a single mother, because it was too boring and "simpleton" reading about her struggles as a single mother working and trying to find time for her kids, it wasn't "intellectual and philosphical enough" for them. You see how most so called critically acclaimed anime are also the super serious seinen type and I really like Vinland Saga and Mushishi, (Monster was a bit of a mixed bag for me maybe yet I still like it a lot), but it lacks a lot of variety in what critics would call good. Ultimately they praise anime that are not written like an anime too much and while it's depending on your taste, if you like your anime to be more written like western series or not, it's not wrong for anime to BE more of a "typical" anime. You still can use these elements creatively and you have the freedom of expression with animation, so you can go over the top with it for a creative purpose. Here I disagree again, because I think it's nobody's place to tell other people how to spend their time or what they should consume or shouldn't. Instead of putting the dogma of "don't watch those isekai" on people, rather try to get them excited for other shows too. In regards to telling people how they should spend their time, people judge others all the time. Why should it be any different for the art they consume, just as you expect your food to be delicious and nutricious, you should expect the art to basically do the same. I still think you make a valid point on getting people excited about other shows as well. But you are fighting against a difficult algorythm. |
petran79 said: But its a shame isnt it? at a time when fans took equal time with their backlog as well as seasonal, people had a much better understanding of the variety of anime. Something being nostalgic does not make it wrong perse, things in ways were better. Cinema fans are always expanding their variety yet animefans have mostly been stagnating. It is a shame when i think of anime as varied medium of shows like Monster, Mushishi, Patlabor, Children of the Sea, etc etc. Yet outsiders, or people with one foot in the door think it is synonymous with things i do not want any relation to. Lucifrost said: They may be critically acclaimed, but I would wager that Monster and Mushishi do not interest the average person. What little I saw of Vinland Saga had more anime tropes. Monster and Mushishi were popular in the mid-2000s which was a completely different landscape both in content and viewers compared to the 2020s. It was a wide foray of modern anime to gain an international audience, mainly via lq video fansubs via slow internet and delayed DVD arrivals. There were a lot of original series that were breaking the mold, even influencing western animation using the anime style and tropes. One reason DVD sales of Monster were so bad that Viz cancelled the series as most viewers had seen it via the fansubs. There was overall a lot of investment, marketing and expensive series to gain new viewers, using the latest 2d animation technology. This is not the case anymore. The mainstream audience of that era became niche now too, interested more in specific genres. You will not see the big shonen or a new popular toy and card game anime anymore. Nowadays western cartoons and Disney took that consumer segment. |
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