| https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2021-09-30/ryukishi07-explains-how-higurashi-gou-and-sotsu-reinvent-the-franchise/.177492 Here is his new interview for ANN. I haven’t read it in full yet, and I probably wouldn’t have paid attention if I hadn’t noticed how someone non-ironically tried to use it as proof that Ryukushi allegedly stated about Rika and Satoko's big sexual life in the future. Joking aside, what do you think of this? I'm still in the middle of Gou, so it bothers me how much people started criticizing the story after Sotsu. |
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RobertBobert said: This is how I think of it ...https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2021-09-30/ryukishi07-explains-how-higurashi-gou-and-sotsu-reinvent-the-franchise/.177492 Here is his new interview for ANN. I haven’t read it in full yet, and I probably wouldn’t have paid attention if I hadn’t noticed how someone non-ironically tried to use it as proof that Ryukushi allegedly stated about Rika and Satoko's big sexual life in the future. Joking aside, what do you think of this? I'm still in the middle of Gou, so it bothers me how much people started criticizing the story after Sotsu. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1960968 |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Hulio said: RobertBobert said: This is how I think of it ...https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2021-09-30/ryukishi07-explains-how-higurashi-gou-and-sotsu-reinvent-the-franchise/.177492 Here is his new interview for ANN. I haven’t read it in full yet, and I probably wouldn’t have paid attention if I hadn’t noticed how someone non-ironically tried to use it as proof that Ryukushi allegedly stated about Rika and Satoko's big sexual life in the future. Joking aside, what do you think of this? I'm still in the middle of Gou, so it bothers me how much people started criticizing the story after Sotsu. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1960968 Wow, has this already been discussed? My apologies, I hope that the modders will not delete this topic, although the old one did not seem to receive feedback for long. But anyway, the main complaint I hear is that this is just a lazy remake, since most of it is just reworked old arcs. |
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RobertBobert said: Yeah, definitely.Wow, has this already been discussed? My apologies, I hope that the modders will not delete this topic, although the old one did not seem to receive feedback for long. But anyway, the main complaint I hear is that this is just a lazy remake, since most of it is just reworked old arcs. People will say that "no this isn't a remake, this is a sequel", but honestly. This was just a lazy attempt trying to remake Higurashi. Became that Evangelion genre and whatever. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Hulio said: RobertBobert said: Yeah, definitely.Wow, has this already been discussed? My apologies, I hope that the modders will not delete this topic, although the old one did not seem to receive feedback for long. But anyway, the main complaint I hear is that this is just a lazy remake, since most of it is just reworked old arcs. People will say that "no this isn't a remake, this is a sequel", but honestly. This was just a lazy attempt trying to remake Higurashi. Became that Evangelion genre and whatever. But why? I understand when Urobuchi appreciated Anno called Madoka "Eva for mahou shoujo", but Higurashi already had a fairly well-established reputation for dark reading of VN harems. To me personally, it looks like a strange attempt to sell girls' relationships as a "subtle" allusion to the famous witches from Umineko, but as we can see, Ryukushi for some reason avoids direct references to it as romance or something like that. |
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RobertBobert said: I don't know.But why? Money? Boredom? Regression? |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Is Ryukushi in such a neglected and depressed state? I could understand if Maeda-san started creating unnecessary reimagining sequels to Key's work without warning, but Ryukushi always seemed like a pretty calm person to me. Not to mention, wouldn't it be much more pragmatic and better to finally make a normal anime based on Umineko? |
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Si1verR0se said: RobertBobert said: Is Ryukushi in such a neglected and depressed state? I could understand if Maeda-san started creating unnecessary reimagining sequels to Key's work without warning, but Ryukushi always seemed like a pretty calm person to me. Not to mention, wouldn't it be much more pragmatic and better to finally make a normal anime based on Umineko? 1. Umineko would require around 100 episodes. I doubt there's any studio who can risk it right now, since all good studios are working on long-term anime 2. Umineko failed back then, so risk is even higher 3. Higurashi is Ryukishi's MOST famous work, so it's easier to attract fans as well as to sell anything related to this Wise choise would've been adaptation of console arcs or even remake. Ryukishi wanted remake, but then someone said "How about just begin it as remake but then turn it to sequel?" and Ryukishi got hooked on this, as well as "proper remake would be boring", such a pepega he is Imo, for Umineko you need much much better studio than Passione, as well as writer, which is not that easy to find and hire right now But what prevents you from doing several seasons? The original Higurashi was adapted after two seasons and 4 cours. And I think that the announcement of a full adaptation of Umineko, especially now, would have caused a huge explosion of hype. Especially if the anime was directly related to the Higurashi adaptations and provided some easter eggs. |
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Si1verR0se said: RobertBobert said: But what prevents you from doing several seasons? The original Higurashi was adapted after two seasons and 4 cours. And I think that the announcement of a full adaptation of Umineko, especially now, would have caused a huge explosion of hype. Especially if the anime was directly related to the Higurashi adaptations and provided some easter eggs. Well, Umineko is not as popular as Higurashi overall, plus they're kinda controversial in Japan, so I guess it's one of the reasons he don't want to risk it. At least for now Is Umineko considered controversial in Japan? But why? All my friends said that this novel is literally a masterpiece compared to Higurashi. |
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RobertBobert said: Umineko story isn't really better than Higurashi, but the VN overall is definitely better.Is Umineko considered controversial in Japan? But why? All my friends said that this novel is literally a masterpiece compared to Higurashi. Umineko does have some pretty damn poggers moments here and there, but honestly, some scenes in Higurashi left a deeper impact. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Hulio said: RobertBobert said: Umineko story isn't really better than Higurashi, but the VN overall is definitely better.Is Umineko considered controversial in Japan? But why? All my friends said that this novel is literally a masterpiece compared to Higurashi. Umineko does have some pretty damn poggers moments here and there, but honestly, some scenes in Higurashi left a deeper impact. Well, personally I like Higurashi better as Umineko seems too memetic and over-hyped for me. If I could be imbued with the first, just watching the anime and then reading VN in an intimate setting, then the second one just gave me the impression of the first day at the university. |
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| Umineko's controversial content is mostly in the latest episodes, thought the novel itself was never popular as Higurashi there, which was always easier to sell to Otaku for obvious reasons. In the west it's probably the opposite nowadays, a lot of people seem to treat Higurashi as a piece to fit into the WTC's "lore" more than anything. As for the controversial elements, usually the ending and the overall message, as well a certain character's identity in episode 7 got R07 a lot of hate. |
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Jin_uzuki said: Umineko's controversial content is mostly in the latest episodes, thought the novel itself was never popular as Higurashi there, which was always easier to sell to Otaku for obvious reasons. In the west it's probably the opposite nowadays, a lot of people seem to treat Higurashi as a piece to fit into the WTC's "lore" more than anything. As for the controversial elements, usually the ending and the overall message, as well a certain character's identity in episode 7 got R07 a lot of hate. The actual ending choices got a lot of flack too. Magic and Truth, there was no middle ground, Ange couldn't accept her family were shitty people but still keep on hope, it has to be on or the other. I remember from old forum posts that people were pissed at Episode 8s Magic ending being made the 'Good' ending. And it basically telling you to ignore reality. The adult servants are worst people thinking about it in retrospect. Genji - Told a mentally and emotionally fragile child about a bomb, and let them set it up. Kumasawa - Filled said childs head with nonsense and fantasy. Who's bright idea was it to bring Yasu to Rokkenjima again? |
ChargecoulombOct 3, 2021 4:09 AM
Exousia__ said: It may be a bit childish, having speeches and tropes of the power of friendship, but there's nothing from in that. They're more or less Children anyway. That's how they tend to think through things.Umineko story is better than Higurashi, Higurashi is kinda childish with all the "Power of friendship" tropes and speeches (we can overcome and cover murder with the help of our friendship). Matsuribayashi was the epitome of this (with some unrealistic and cartoonish moments e.g elite trained soldiers falling for Satoko traps), some japanese fans were really upset with this, no wonder why 07th made Miotsukushi-hen as an alternate ending. However this is indeed a bit of a problem.The best aspect of this Power of friendship message was the villagers coming together to save Satoko. Best and highly realistic.It also isn't simply about everyone coming to save Satoko, but it had influential forces behind it. But still, the Higurashi Question arcs + especially Tsumihoroboshi (VNs) really did offer something deep and long lasting for me. Umineko too, but if I Had to compare those story elements, I'd put Higurashi on the Pedastal. Then again, this isn't a reason why Higurashi would be worse than Umineko, as a lot of people are saying Umineko ending sucked as well. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
| I dont think that Umineko would be appreciated by the anime only crowd anyway. Even with the best visuals,ost and script it would still be hated/disliked because of the Meta and and the whole magic being more or less allusions/metaphors in the end. Even if they play it safe and adapt based on the manga for stuff like EP7(Specifically Will vs Clair and Confession) you will still have the dum dumb ones "This isnt clear enough". Not to mention that the ending isnt really a "good ending" like with Higurashi(old or new). I doubt Battler will be liked beyond some of his hyped scenes as well. I am all for a proper adaptation but I dont expect non VN readers to tolerate it's structure. |
RobertBobert said: Si1verR0se said: Well, Umineko is not as popular as Higurashi overall, plus they're kinda controversial in Japan, so I guess it's one of the reasons he don't want to risk it. At least for now Is Umineko considered controversial in Japan? But why? All my friends said that this novel is literally a masterpiece compared to Higurashi. People on Japan got triggered hard by being called goats by Ryuukishi IIRC. There is also some criticism about the ending not explaining the actual resolution to the mysteries (which got explained in the manga of EP7 and EP8) and EP8 being mostly full blown magic shounen battles. Chinese and English/Global audiences regard Umineko in a much better light than Higurashi, whereas the Japanese like Higurashi more and downright dislike/were disappointed by Umineko. Exousia__ said: Umineko story is better than Higurashi, Higurashi is kinda childish with all the "Power of friendship" tropes and speeches (we can overcome and cover murder with the help of our friendship). Both are good IMO, although yeah, Kai's/Higurashi's ending with a bunch of kids winning against "supposedly" trained killers/hired guns was full blown retarded. |
GoldenSaltPillarOct 3, 2021 11:29 AM
| @GoldenSaltPillar Quite interesting information, thanks. In Russia, Umineko is literally considered an extremely memetic masterpiece, while Higurashi is seen as just a mainstream classic. |
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Hulio said: However this is indeed a bit of a problem. As much as this is frequently cited as a problem or a major complaint many people have with the final episodes of Kai, I never saw the real issue with it - at least the way it was portrayed in the anime. They never even killed any of the soldiers. Local child familiar with the rugged countryside terrain creates some traps to injure, immobilize, and demoralize soldiers. Eventually they just gave up because it's a cause they weren't willing to die for since they were essentially acting as hired mercenaries and because there was a time constraint with other things happening in the background (Tomitake and Akasaka escaping from Hinamizawa, the underground section of the Irie Clinic being taken over by the others, the Banken combat unit about to be deployed and the supreme governmental authority notified and about to intervene). They bought time with booby traps and probably trapping and breaking some soldiers' legs. I'm sure it's something that's actually happened in some guerrilla war in history. It wouldn't surprise me if some Pashtun kids in Afghanistan did it against an isolated group of U.S. soldiers. Is it a commonplace or likely occurrence? No, but it isn't like it's not by far not the most unlikely thing which happens in the show. |
WatchTillTandava said: In the end, it wasn't really much of an issue for me either, but if I had to make a list of issues, that would definitely be in it.Hulio said: However this is indeed a bit of a problem. As much as this is frequently cited as a problem or a major complaint many people have with the final episodes of Kai, I never saw the real issue with it - at least the way it was portrayed in the anime. They never even killed any of the soldiers. Local child familiar with the rugged countryside terrain creates some traps to injure, immobilize, and demoralize soldiers. Eventually they just gave up because it's a cause they weren't willing to die for since they were essentially acting as hired mercenaries and because there was a time constraint with other things happening in the background (Tomitake and Akasaka escaping from Hinamizawa, the underground section of the Irie Clinic being taken over by the others, the Banken combat unit about to be deployed and the supreme governmental authority notified and about to intervene). They bought time with booby traps and probably trapping and breaking some soldiers' legs. I'm sure it's something that's actually happened in some guerrilla war in history. It wouldn't surprise me if some Pashtun kids in Afghanistan did it against an isolated group of U.S. soldiers. Is it a commonplace or likely occurrence? No, but it isn't like it's not by far not the most unlikely thing which happens in the show. I get it that kids familiar with the terrain and all could pull off some shenanigans on even the more experienced soldiers, but the whole thing was a bit too one sided. The bigger problem for me isn't the overplaying of the kids' skills, but rather downplaying the soldiers'. Honestly, they were even more worthless than Stormtroopers. These Pashtun kids might pull off something like this on isolated group of U.S. soldiers arlright. But if they're willing to shoot back, would the kids break them up without a single casualty? I find that... rather unprobable. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Hulio said: WatchTillTandava said: In the end, it wasn't really much of an issue for me either, but if I had to make a list of issues, that would definitely be in it.As much as this is frequently cited as a problem or a major complaint many people have with the final episodes of Kai, I never saw the real issue with it - at least the way it was portrayed in the anime. They never even killed any of the soldiers. Local child familiar with the rugged countryside terrain creates some traps to injure, immobilize, and demoralize soldiers. Eventually they just gave up because it's a cause they weren't willing to die for since they were essentially acting as hired mercenaries and because there was a time constraint with other things happening in the background (Tomitake and Akasaka escaping from Hinamizawa, the underground section of the Irie Clinic being taken over by the others, the Banken combat unit about to be deployed and the supreme governmental authority notified and about to intervene). They bought time with booby traps and probably trapping and breaking some soldiers' legs. I'm sure it's something that's actually happened in some guerrilla war in history. It wouldn't surprise me if some Pashtun kids in Afghanistan did it against an isolated group of U.S. soldiers. Is it a commonplace or likely occurrence? No, but it isn't like it's not by far not the most unlikely thing which happens in the show. I get it that kids familiar with the terrain and all could pull off some shenanigans on even the more experienced soldiers, but the whole thing was a bit too one sided. The bigger problem for me isn't the overplaying of the kids' skills, but rather downplaying the soldiers'. Honestly, they were even more worthless than Stormtroopers. These Pashtun kids might pull off something like this on isolated group of U.S. soldiers arlright. But if they're willing to shoot back, would the kids break them up without a single casualty? I find that... rather unprobable. Wasnt Hanyuu also using her Oyashiro powers to scare them? That would explain a lot. Dont remember the Anime, but in the VN they were scared out of their pants, and very disorientated. Them falling to all those traps would make more sense in that context. Hanyuu-ex-machina just keeps on winning. She "commands" the yamainu in the Rika exchange that takes place at the Sonozaki Estate. So I wonder how much power she actually posses. Since she is an Oni, demonic strength should also be in her arsenal... Oh well. In Kotohogushi Hanyuu is responsible for conquering through several countries... by herself. That badass Hanyuu somewhat came back in Miotsukushi, but its nice to imagine Hanyuu beating up people in Matsuribayashi. The only bad part about the end of Matsuribayashi is the Mion vs Okinogi part, but the rest is fairly well written. Although I can accept that as Okinogi bullshitting for some reason. EDIT : To add more detail, Okinogi knew from the moment Tomitake escaped that the Bloodhounds would be called in. In the final confrontation he was buying time with the first nonsense that came to his head. Now that the Banken were coming they would be held responsible for whoever they kill - and killing children would cause a ton of issues for them when the Bloodhounds showed up. Thats why he was speaking that Bullshit nonsense with Mion He was buying time. |
ChargecoulombOct 3, 2021 2:13 PM
Hulio said: In the end, it wasn't really much of an issue for me either, but if I had to make a list of issues, that would definitely be in it. I get it that kids familiar with the terrain and all could pull off some shenanigans on even the more experienced soldiers, but the whole thing was a bit too one sided. The bigger problem for me isn't the overplaying of the kids' skills, but rather downplaying the soldiers'. Honestly, they were even more worthless than Stormtroopers. These Pashtun kids might pull off something like this on isolated group of U.S. soldiers arlright. But if they're willing to shoot back, would the kids break them up without a single casualty? I find that... rather unprobable. Chargecoulomb said: Wasnt Hanyuu also using her Oyashiro powers to scare them? That would explain a lot. Dont remember the Anime, but in the VN they were scared out of their pants, and very disorientated. Them falling to all those traps would make more sense in that context. Hanyuu-ex-machina just keeps on winning. The only bad part about the end of Matsuribayashi is the Mion vs Okinogi part, but the rest is fairly well written. Although I can accept that as Okinogi bullshitting. Yes, that too. There was a psychological component. Hanyuu and Keiichi over the radio/communications equipment. But also, I think the other factor behind why it makes sense within the context of the logic of the series at that point (referring to the anime here) is just that it's cathartic as fuck to actually see some concerted successful pushback to agents of a conspiracy which seemed all-powerful and virtually omnipotent up to that point to the point where the audience by now were aware they spent almost 50 episodes looping to get past the same date, Rika has been trapped in a cycle for a century, and even most of the details of the overarching scenario were obscured from most of the characters (and remain so through to the end) and even the audience. So it serves the emotional narrative and feels exhilarating and vindicating. This fundamentally isn't different from the justification behind the conclusion of Gou/Sotsu in the sense of emotional logic winning out, but the difference is in the details of how they got there in the first place making one feel far more earned, more detailed, less lazy and cheap, and therefore superior storytelling. The difference is in laying the groundwork every step of the way leading up to it, which produces a difference as great as that between heaven and Earth as a final result. Ultimately though, it is contingent on what your individual expectations and demands of your media are. It's just like "Anime physics" or "Cartoon physics". Anime, even the most realistic anime, don't strive to be realistic to an absolute fault. Neither cartoons. And nor even live action. And even our shared reality in the physical world has "unrealistic" or improbable things happen every day that you may or may not hear about. Just because something is statistically improbable on paper doesn't mean a highly specific set of unpredictable circumstances can't converge in reality to produce a different outcome. There are too many moving parts for humans to often credibly measure. It's like the dilemma of a vastly militarily inferior force on paper defeating a numerically, financially, technologically superior one. In theory it "should never happen" if just examining statistics and comparing raw power, but there are too many variables in a real life situation down to every individual involved. If wars could be decided that way by looking at a balance sheet beforehand, then there would be no need to ever go to the trouble of actually having them in the first place. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 3, 2021 1:56 PM
Chargecoulomb said: Yeah, I don't really know how deep and strong Hanyuu's powers go, or how proficient/mentally hardened Yamainu were.Wasnt Hanyuu also using her Oyashiro powers to scare them? That would explain a lot. In general the fight isn't much of an issue, but to me it's still a bit too onesided. Like WatchTillTandava said, at that point it was mainly cathartic to see them being beat. And that's basically what is the problem for me. And in general. Instead of Yamainu just losing cause they were beat to it, it feels more like they got beat for the sake of them being beat. With the addition of the cliche that everyone does their part and they showed us everyone beating them up more or less equally. If we talk of Sotsu and other Battle Shonen Anime, I've more or less grown disgusted at the cliche of each side EQUALLY beating up each other, until the end they give the last punch and... who would have guessed, they both hit each other and they both get K.O.'d, oh wow. It was nice and all when I first saw it in Dragon Ball, but why do I keep seeing it everywhere I go now. That is not for the sake of two friends beating each other up cause X It's for the sake of them fighting equally and losing equally, cause they're equals or some shit. |
| Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
RobertBobert said: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2021-09-30/ryukishi07-explains-how-higurashi-gou-and-sotsu-reinvent-the-franchise/.177492 Here is his new interview for ANN. I haven’t read it in full yet, and I probably wouldn’t have paid attention if I hadn’t noticed how someone non-ironically tried to use it as proof that Ryukushi allegedly stated about Rika and Satoko's big sexual life in the future. Joking aside, what do you think of this? I'm still in the middle of Gou, so it bothers me how much people started criticizing the story after Sotsu. Yes, they should totally have huge sex life in the future, our boi should reveal that as canon in some interview and commission some artist to draw official arts of hot yuri action. That will be like a yuri cherry on top of this cake. Also known as adding insult to the injury if you are a pessimist. |
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