Cliamh-Solais said: CyborgSaber said: Um I did I quoted your reply to my original comment and I quoted your original comment. FYI you called everyone who doesn't understand Shiro retarded. Have a good day. Yes i missed your reply, and no i didn't call everyone retarded, i never said "everyone", but well there are always unreasonable ppl I'm replying because I see your new and also I will quote you "blame ppl's retardness". So yes you did say everyone you didn't specify you said people that's a generalization just like how I said "everyone who doesn't understand Shiro retarded". |
CyborgSaber said: Cliamh-Solais said: Oh god let's breake this down. "Plot armor" Oh god really ? All of his power ups was according to Nasuverse's lore and was explained in ther series. Avalon was implanted in him by Kerry and it was introduced in Fate route. Now battle with Gil. We have Rin specificaly talk about Gil, his NP and how Archer and thuse Shirou's magic is it's natural enemy. But still Shirou is weak so Rin mana transfer with him. Then we have the fight, and all of the explantations Shirou gives about his strategy and how he couldn't do anything if there was another servant against him, and we also see how Gil mock him and holds back for 99% of the fight like he always do. and despite that, his still fails to kill Gil amd was recued by Archer's last attempts. Yeah totally plot armor. About him being annoying it might be your opinion so i can't change it but there's a pretty high chance that you didn't understand his character so he was annoying to you. Now the most important thing you should know: Fate is 1 journey, Shirou's development should be regarded across the 3 routes and HF is it's final desitnation OK what Nasuverse lore the visual novels or the in the anime. I didn't read the visual novels. Yeah he had avalon I knew that. UBWs is a mess in my opinion it's the worst route Shiro makes no sense in this route at all. His motivations make so much more sense in both Heaven's Feel and Vow in the Snow. His power also makes more sense in those stories as well especially Vow in the Snow. Shiro just gets powerful really quite look at when he fought caster and her master two enemies Saber and Rin could do nothing about yet he was able to hold his own (yes Saber is very weak because Shiro isn't a proper master). Yeah his fight with Gil makes sense on paper and Gil held back but it's still BS I don't have a counter because that's my opinion I didn't like the fight. They hype up Gil to be the strongest servent and he gets his arm cut off by a kid with barely any training at all in both magic and hand to hand combat. How should his development be regarded across all three routes UBW and Heaven's Feel are completely different in terms of plot. That makes no sense to me so he summons Saber 3 different times. Shiro is better in HF and Vow in the Snow. He is not good in ubw but then again Rin, Saber and Sakura aren't either. What difference is there in his motivations between UBW, HF and OuS? The only difference is that his target changes. Might as well ask why Kiritsugu did what he was doing for two decades of his life. UBW Shirou's powerups are no different from what happens to him in the OuS movie. In fact he is more broken in the movie. UBW Shirou doesnt have infinite mana and he isnt facing enemies that are nerfed by default. He failed against Kuzuki, Archer let him win, and Archer saved the day against Gil twice. OuS Shirou steamrolled everyone with relative ease and lost to Angelic because of her magecraft in combination with Gil's Gate of Babylon. And powers levels dont exist in Fate. Compatibility does. Saber lost against Kuzuki because her instincts as a skilled warrior were failing her against his fighting style. Not because he was stronger.Shirou didnt have that issue. And hold his own is an overstatement, since all he did both times was hold up for a few secs in the first fight and a few minutes in the second until help arrived. Shirou does have training. They even mention that he mastered projection before starting reinforcement but Kiritsugu told him that it was useless(Kiritsugu was correct except that Shirou didnt master the typical projection magecraft). He was also trained in kendo with both Kiritsugu and Taiga, the latter being a 5 dan practitioner, and archery. He isnt some average joe. Gil on the other hand is regarded as the strongest because, even without Ea, he has the right weapon for literally any hero he faces. There is a reason why he avoids fighting Saber or anyone really in close combat. You dont need linear development. In each route you learn something more about Shirou and why he is like he is and how he develops. HF would be a mess without first knowing why he is like that through Fate and UBW. UBW Shirou, in the VN, even almost goes into HF territory when Taiga is taken hostage, because we see for the first time SHirou willing to toss everything else aside for a family/loved one. And it isnt just that he gives up on strangers, he thinks of killing Rin because Rin is antagonizing Caster, which puts Taiga in danger. In HF he doesnt protect Sakura because he found some pussy to fuck, excuse my language, I see this thrown around too much. UBW foreshadows that he can let others die/endanger their lives for a single important person. Saber gets her story in Fate and Rin and Sakura in HF. UBW isnt really Rin's story even if she is the heroine/romantic interest. |
ssjokgAug 4, 2021 8:21 AM
Cliamh-Solais said: CyborgSaber said: OK what Nasuverse lore the visual novels or the in the anime. I didn't read the visual novels. Yeah he had avalon I knew that. UBWs is a mess in my opinion it's the worst route Shiro makes no sense in this route at all. His motivations make so much more sense in both Heaven's Feel and Vow in the Snow. His power also makes more sense in those stories as well especially Vow in the Snow. Shiro just gets powerful really quite look at when he fought caster and her master two enemies Saber and Rin could do nothing about yet he was able to hold his own (yes Saber is very weak because Shiro isn't a proper master). Yeah his fight with Gil makes sense on paper and Gil held back but it's still BS I don't have a counter because that's my opinion I didn't like the fight. They hype up Gil to be the strongest servent and he gets his arm cut off by a kid with barely any training at all in both magic and hand to hand combat. How should his development be regarded across all three routes UBW and Heaven's Feel are completely different in terms of plot. That makes no sense to me so he summons Saber 3 different times. Shiro is better in HF and Vow in the Snow. He is not good in ubw but then again Rin, Saber and Sakura aren't either. First of all we were talking about a technical term known as plot armor, which we can see this is all your own opinion. He never actually stood against Caster herself, and Saber only get beaten by Kuzuki becasue he was sruprised and as you said weak. And again all of his powers as Asrcher explained was the result of their intractions. Then you say you don't have any counter butnit's BS just because you are saying it, well dear Gil held back against evryone and i don't get how Iskanadar's fight isn't BS caude it's the same Gil held back. hh About your last point, i didn't even think i should explain why his development should be regarded like this, lol that's the whole point of making the story in 3 routes. That's why VNs are written this way. That was Kinoko Nasu's whole point, that Shirou finally become a human in HF. Yeah I know what plot armor is to me Shiro just gets strong because of plot and for some reason Saber and Rin are just weak in this route. Explain to me how Saber can fight Lancer, Berserker, Assassin and Archer but get surprised by a master and couldn't do anything. But not Shiro he can fight. Rin was just wasted I this story too. Next what could iskandar do Gil showed him his reality marble was weak against him. Gil held back against Hercules too but he defeated them that's my point. Hercules had 9 lives plus incredible strength and Iskandar had a literal army but Shiro could cut off his arm. And your last point Shiros development changes from each route/time line it's not the same Shiro from Heaven's Feel to UbW to the original route they are different they don't all come together to sum up his character. They all different Shiros and I also said I like Shiro in every route but UBWs I don't like his character at all in this story. |
ssjokg said: CyborgSaber said: OK what Nasuverse lore the visual novels or the in the anime. I didn't read the visual novels. Yeah he had avalon I knew that. UBWs is a mess in my opinion it's the worst route Shiro makes no sense in this route at all. His motivations make so much more sense in both Heaven's Feel and Vow in the Snow. His power also makes more sense in those stories as well especially Vow in the Snow. Shiro just gets powerful really quite look at when he fought caster and her master two enemies Saber and Rin could do nothing about yet he was able to hold his own (yes Saber is very weak because Shiro isn't a proper master). Yeah his fight with Gil makes sense on paper and Gil held back but it's still BS I don't have a counter because that's my opinion I didn't like the fight. They hype up Gil to be the strongest servent and he gets his arm cut off by a kid with barely any training at all in both magic and hand to hand combat. How should his development be regarded across all three routes UBW and Heaven's Feel are completely different in terms of plot. That makes no sense to me so he summons Saber 3 different times. Shiro is better in HF and Vow in the Snow. He is not good in ubw but then again Rin, Saber and Sakura aren't either. What difference is there in his motivations between UBW, HF and OuS? The only difference is that his target changes. Might as well ask why Kiritsugu did what he was doing for two decades of his life. UBW Shirou's powerups are no different from what happens to him in the OuS movie. In fact he is more broken in the movie. UBW Shirou doesnt have infinite mana and he isnt facing enemies that are nerfed by default. He failed against Kuzuki, Archer let him win, and Archer saved the day against Gil twice. OuS Shirou steamrolled everyone with relative ease and lost to Angelic because of her magecraft in combination with Gil's Gate of Babylon. And powers levels dont exist in Fate. Compatibility does. Saber lost against Kuzuki because her instincts as a skilled warrior were failing her against his fighting style. Not because he was stronger.Shirou didnt have that issue. And hold his own is an overstatement, since all he did both times was hold up for a few secs in the first fight and a few minutes in the second until help arrived. Shirou does have training. They even mention that he mastered projection before starting reinforcement but Kiritsugu told him that it was useless(Kiritsugu was correct except that Shirou didnt master the typical projection magecraft). He was also trained in kendo with both Kiritsugu and Taiga, the latter being a 5 dan practitioner, and archery. He isnt some average joe. Gil on the other hand is regarded as the strongest because, even without Ea, he has the right weapon for literally any hero he faces. There is a reason why he avoids fighting Saber or anyone really in close combat. You dont need linear development. In each route you learn something more about Shirou and why he is like he is and how he develops. HF would be a mess without first knowing why he is like that through Fate and UBW. UBW Shirou, in the VN, even almost goes into HF territory when Taiga is taken hostage, because we see for the first time SHirou willing to toss everything else aside for a family/loved one. And it isnt just that he gives up on strangers, he thinks of killing Rin because Rin is antagonizing Caster, which puts Taiga in danger. In HF he doesnt protect Sakura because he found some pussy to fuck, excuse my language, I see this thrown around too much. UBW foreshadows that he can let others die/endanger their lives for a single important person. Saber gets her story in Fate and Rin and Sakura in HF. UBW isnt really Rin's story even if she is the heroine/romantic interest. Shiros "I want to save someone" mindset makes more sense in the other routes it doesn't make sense to me in the UBW route. I'm assuming your talking about Vow in the Snow with OuS (idk if that the acronym for the Japanese version) yeah he is stronger but his power makes sense that's all I was saying with that. Yes power levels do exist in Fate just look at the wiki. Noble Phantasms are scaled with a ranking system yes this pertains to the games but it's still used in the anime for the most part. I will admit I forgot he got training in some form of fighting style. I get what your saying I just didn't enjoy UBW. I understand his motivations but I just don't think it works in UBW that's all. |
CyborgSaber said: Cliamh-Solais said: First of all we were talking about a technical term known as plot armor, which we can see this is all your own opinion. He never actually stood against Caster herself, and Saber only get beaten by Kuzuki becasue he was sruprised and as you said weak. And again all of his powers as Asrcher explained was the result of their intractions. Then you say you don't have any counter butnit's BS just because you are saying it, well dear Gil held back against evryone and i don't get how Iskanadar's fight isn't BS caude it's the same Gil held back. hh About your last point, i didn't even think i should explain why his development should be regarded like this, lol that's the whole point of making the story in 3 routes. That's why VNs are written this way. That was Kinoko Nasu's whole point, that Shirou finally become a human in HF. Yeah I know what plot armor is to me Shiro just gets strong because of plot and for some reason Saber and Rin are just weak in this route. Explain to me how Saber can fight Lancer, Berserker, Assassin and Archer but get surprised by a master and couldn't do anything. But not Shiro he can fight. Rin was just wasted I this story too. Next what could iskandar do Gil showed him his reality marble was weak against him. Gil held back against Hercules too but he defeated them that's my point. Hercules had 9 lives plus incredible strength and Iskandar had a literal army but Shiro could cut off his arm. And your last point Shiros development changes from each route/time line it's not the same Shiro from Heaven's Feel to UbW to the original route they are different they don't all come together to sum up his character. They all different Shiros and I also said I like Shiro in every route but UBWs I don't like his character at all in this story. It has nothing to do with power against Kuzuki who was buffed by Caster. Rin isnt weaker than in HF either. Gil cant fight in close combat. That is all. Against anyone that has been trained with a weapon he sucks. All Shirous sum up his character. That's why even if Archer talks shit about him still acts like him(self sacrificing himself etc) |
Cliamh-Solais said: CyborgSaber said: Yeah I know what plot armor is to me Shiro just gets strong because of plot and for some reason Saber and Rin are just weak in this route. Explain to me how Saber can fight Lancer, Berserker, Assassin and Archer but get surprised by a master and couldn't do anything. But not Shiro he can fight. Rin was just wasted I this story too. Next what could iskandar do Gil showed him his reality marble was weak against him. Gil held back against Hercules too but he defeated them that's my point. Hercules had 9 lives plus incredible strength and Iskandar had a literal army but Shiro could cut off his arm. And your last point Shiros development changes from each route/time line it's not the same Shiro from Heaven's Feel to UbW to the original route they are different they don't all come together to sum up his character. They all different Shiros and I also said I like Shiro in every route but UBWs I don't like his character at all in this story. Well actually Gil defeated Shirou too, Shirou was able to cut his arm but in the end he failed and Gil was ready to kill him, Archer saved him. And yes i know what you mean but you are missing the bigger picture, first Shiou is the same in each route atlest before the peak of each one , and each route has it's own purpose, they are built on one an other, as Kinoko Nasu said, Fate route is introduction, UBW explores Shirou and give him an answer but that's not enough, and HF heals him. Also how could you say you hate him in UBW but like him in Fate route ? Now about Saber, Saber was surprised because Kuzuki was a master not a servant, and not even a mage. Kuzuki was stregntgned by Caste and also was a fighte in his past. Then abour Iskandar, i don't get your point but what i mean is, Iskandar's fight was also nothing but luck, Gil was able to kill him in mere second. My entire point is I don't like Shiro in UBW that's it that's my point. I didn't like his character at all but as I said it wasn't just him it's the route in general. |
CyborgSaber said: ssjokg said: What difference is there in his motivations between UBW, HF and OuS? The only difference is that his target changes. Might as well ask why Kiritsugu did what he was doing for two decades of his life. UBW Shirou's powerups are no different from what happens to him in the OuS movie. In fact he is more broken in the movie. UBW Shirou doesnt have infinite mana and he isnt facing enemies that are nerfed by default. He failed against Kuzuki, Archer let him win, and Archer saved the day against Gil twice. OuS Shirou steamrolled everyone with relative ease and lost to Angelic because of her magecraft in combination with Gil's Gate of Babylon. And powers levels dont exist in Fate. Compatibility does. Saber lost against Kuzuki because her instincts as a skilled warrior were failing her against his fighting style. Not because he was stronger.Shirou didnt have that issue. And hold his own is an overstatement, since all he did both times was hold up for a few secs in the first fight and a few minutes in the second until help arrived. Shirou does have training. They even mention that he mastered projection before starting reinforcement but Kiritsugu told him that it was useless(Kiritsugu was correct except that Shirou didnt master the typical projection magecraft). He was also trained in kendo with both Kiritsugu and Taiga, the latter being a 5 dan practitioner, and archery. He isnt some average joe. Gil on the other hand is regarded as the strongest because, even without Ea, he has the right weapon for literally any hero he faces. There is a reason why he avoids fighting Saber or anyone really in close combat. You dont need linear development. In each route you learn something more about Shirou and why he is like he is and how he develops. HF would be a mess without first knowing why he is like that through Fate and UBW. UBW Shirou, in the VN, even almost goes into HF territory when Taiga is taken hostage, because we see for the first time SHirou willing to toss everything else aside for a family/loved one. And it isnt just that he gives up on strangers, he thinks of killing Rin because Rin is antagonizing Caster, which puts Taiga in danger. In HF he doesnt protect Sakura because he found some pussy to fuck, excuse my language, I see this thrown around too much. UBW foreshadows that he can let others die/endanger their lives for a single important person. Saber gets her story in Fate and Rin and Sakura in HF. UBW isnt really Rin's story even if she is the heroine/romantic interest. Shiros "I want to save someone" mindset makes more sense in the other routes it doesn't make sense to me in the UBW route. I'm assuming your talking about Vow in the Snow with OuS (idk if that the acronym for the Japanese version) yeah he is stronger but his power makes sense that's all I was saying with that. Yes power levels do exist in Fate just look at the wiki. Noble Phantasms are scaled with a ranking system yes this pertains to the games but it's still used in the anime for the most part. I will admit I forgot he got training in some form of fighting style. I get what your saying I just didn't enjoy UBW. I understand his motivations but I just don't think it works in UBW that's all. I dont understand what you mean "it doesnt make sense in UBW". Like, he starts with that in all routes and then diverges. Why doesnt it make sense to you in UBW alone? OuS=Oath Under Snow,yes the same movie. And in both UBW and the movie Shirou downloaded the powers of Archer. They arent different in the method. Please dont use wiki. Yes NPs, and skills and stats have ranks but that doesnt mean shit if they are unusable because of conditions or if the enemy has a NP that counters it. Gae Bolg can kill anyone because it strikes the heart before Lancer even thrusts it. Well too bad that Saber has A rank luck which is also useless in every other scenario. Oh that x Noble Phantasm has power equivalent to a nuke...too bad that the enemy has a specific defense against that alone. Medusa can petrify anyone with Mana Rank C or lower even if they are stronger than Heracles. It is all compatibility. Concepts matter more than destructive power. |
ssjokgAug 4, 2021 8:58 AM
Cliamh-Solais said: CyborgSaber said: My entire point is I don't like Shiro in UBW that's it that's my point. I didn't like his character at all but as I said it wasn't just him it's the route in general. Well that's totally fine but honestly you made some arguments that weren't correct according to series, like Shirou's motivation to save ppl which is the same at the first of every route. And it's just a suggestion, but i think if you rewatch UBW more carfully his powerups doesn't seems nonesense to you, cause as i said it was explained, but my words doesn't have the same impact of experincing the series You do realise that this is my opinion right what you said isn't facts either. So what is correct with the series because a lot of people feel the same way I do again I'm not saying I am correct. I may rewatch the series later but again I wasn't a fan of it. |
ssjokg said: CyborgSaber said: Shiros "I want to save someone" mindset makes more sense in the other routes it doesn't make sense to me in the UBW route. I'm assuming your talking about Vow in the Snow with OuS (idk if that the acronym for the Japanese version) yeah he is stronger but his power makes sense that's all I was saying with that. Yes power levels do exist in Fate just look at the wiki. Noble Phantasms are scaled with a ranking system yes this pertains to the games but it's still used in the anime for the most part. I will admit I forgot he got training in some form of fighting style. I get what your saying I just didn't enjoy UBW. I understand his motivations but I just don't think it works in UBW that's all. I dont understand what you mean "it doesnt make sense in UBW". Like, he starts with that in all routes and then diverges. Why doesnt it make sense to you? OuS=Oath Under Snow,yes the same movie. And in both UBW and the movie Shirou downloaded the powers of Archer. They arent different in the method. Please dont use wiki. Yes NPs, and skills and stats have ranks but that doesnt mean shit if they are unusable because of conditions or if the enemy has a NP that counters it. Gae Bolg can kill anyone because it strikes the heart before Lancer even thrusts it. Well too bad that Saber has A rank luck which is also useless in every other scenario. Oh that x Noble Phantasm has power equivalent to a nuke...too bad that the enemy has a specific defense against that alone. Medusa can petrify anyone with Mana Rank C or lower even if they are stronger than Heracles. It is all compatibility. Concepts matter more than destructive power. Shiros "I want to say someone" mindset makes sense in Heaven's Feel because of his long relationship with Sakura, in Vow in the Snow it's Miyu who was like a sister to him, and in UBW there no one I guess Saber but just didn't like it that's what I mean it didn't feel right to me. The narrative works with Shiros mindset in HF and Vow in the Snow. I only brought up the wiki because you said there power levels. I think that power levels in Fate are BS anyways. |
CyborgSaber said: ssjokg said: I dont understand what you mean "it doesnt make sense in UBW". Like, he starts with that in all routes and then diverges. Why doesnt it make sense to you? OuS=Oath Under Snow,yes the same movie. And in both UBW and the movie Shirou downloaded the powers of Archer. They arent different in the method. Please dont use wiki. Yes NPs, and skills and stats have ranks but that doesnt mean shit if they are unusable because of conditions or if the enemy has a NP that counters it. Gae Bolg can kill anyone because it strikes the heart before Lancer even thrusts it. Well too bad that Saber has A rank luck which is also useless in every other scenario. Oh that x Noble Phantasm has power equivalent to a nuke...too bad that the enemy has a specific defense against that alone. Medusa can petrify anyone with Mana Rank C or lower even if they are stronger than Heracles. It is all compatibility. Concepts matter more than destructive power. Shiros "I want to say someone" mindset makes sense in Heaven's Feel because of his long relationship with Sakura, in Vow in the Snow it's Miyu who was like a sister to him, and in UBW there no one I guess Saber but just didn't like it that's what I mean it didn't feel right to me. The narrative works with Shiros mindset in HF and Vow in the Snow. I only brought up the wiki because you said there power levels. I think that power levels in Fate are BS anyways. Sorry, I dont get what a single person has to do with "I want to save everyone". You mean the friction between that ideal and his desire to protect one person? Sure I guess, but it isnt like his ideal in UBW isnt explained, which is what I am talking about. I like HF more than UBW as well because he finally becomes less of a machine, but I cant say that his ideal doesnt make sense in UBw. What I mean with power levels is "x is stronger than y and y is stronger than z, so x is stronger than z". Aka Dragonball stuff. Fate doesnt work like that. Fate(and Nasuverse as a whole) is like rock paper scissors. |
ssjokgAug 4, 2021 9:11 AM
Cliamh-Solais said: CyborgSaber said: You do realise that this is my opinion right what you said isn't facts either. So what is correct with the series because a lot of people feel the same way I do again I'm not saying I am correct. I may rewatch the series later but again I wasn't a fan of it. I think you misunderstood what i'm saying. Shirou's "starting" motivation in all 3 routes of the FSN is infact the same and yes that is a fact cause they are the same person at the start. What makes UBW different than Fate route is Shirou stopping Saber from harming archer, and what make HF different than UBW and Fate is that Shirou walks Sakura home, that's how a 100% completed VN works or should i say that's how an alternate timeline born. So at the start they are the same, it's their development becausenof the situation that is different. And yes i your opinion might not chang it was just a suggestion. Yeah I understand that Shiro starts the same never said he didn't I stated his mindset is the same but I didn't think it worked well in UBW and despite me never playing a visual novel I get how it works. And you stated what I have been saying so I will word it like that I don't like Shiros development in UBW. The other routes show that those routes work better than UBW that's all. I understand your suggestion I planned on watching it in the future I watched it when it was airing. |
| because he is a terrible character. |
| Bc the majority of the viewership has not read the visual novel but this has been put quite adequately in this forum countless times. In VN he is by far the most complex character and he doesn't come off as a pussy like in the anime. I had to highlight these: TimMarcus said: Because people don't read the VN and still think Urobuchi carries type moon lmao KamisamaArigatou said: It doesn't matter, since to the visual novel fanbase as well as the Japanese, he's an absolutely beloved character as well as the most well-received Type-Moon protagonist. All the spin-offs featuring him, fanart, and amv's speak for themselves |
CyborgSaber said: ssjokg said: I dont understand what you mean "it doesnt make sense in UBW". Like, he starts with that in all routes and then diverges. Why doesnt it make sense to you? OuS=Oath Under Snow,yes the same movie. And in both UBW and the movie Shirou downloaded the powers of Archer. They arent different in the method. Please dont use wiki. Yes NPs, and skills and stats have ranks but that doesnt mean shit if they are unusable because of conditions or if the enemy has a NP that counters it. Gae Bolg can kill anyone because it strikes the heart before Lancer even thrusts it. Well too bad that Saber has A rank luck which is also useless in every other scenario. Oh that x Noble Phantasm has power equivalent to a nuke...too bad that the enemy has a specific defense against that alone. Medusa can petrify anyone with Mana Rank C or lower even if they are stronger than Heracles. It is all compatibility. Concepts matter more than destructive power. Shiros "I want to say someone" mindset makes sense in Heaven's Feel because of his long relationship with Sakura, in Vow in the Snow it's Miyu who was like a sister to him, and in UBW there no one I guess Saber but just didn't like it that's what I mean it didn't feel right to me. The narrative works with Shiros mindset in HF and Vow in the Snow. I only brought up the wiki because you said there power levels. I think that power levels in Fate are BS anyways. Shirou's ideals of saving anyone at the cost of himself has to do with the relationship with his father, Kiritsugu and a condition called "Survivor's guilt", which is a consequence of him surviving the Fourth Holy Grail War. It is ingrained into him as part of his philosophy and has nothing to do with any love interest he may have. UBW, even in VN terms, is the most popular route because it is the end of the "Light Side of the Moon" arc of the story, embodied by Fate and UBW. HF is the "Dark Side of the Moon". UBW challenges his broken ideals by presenting him with his future self, Archer, as the main antagonist. Archer is named "Heroic Spirit Emiya"; he embodies the ideals of Kiritsugu Emiya that Shirou Emiya borrowed, and is the result of Shirou not being able to save Saber at the end of the Fate Route (in a hypothetical bad ending). I used to hate UBW as well. But after reading the Visual Novel, I've come to love it as it cements Shirou as the character with the strongest writing in all of Fate, and in all of the Nasuverse. And as I've read the manga for Fate/Illya 3rei, including the part covered by Oath under Snow, I can tell you that while Shirou's character goes through many significant character developments, it is because this iteration of Shirou betrays his ideals. Instead of saving anyone at the cost of himself, he looks to save one person for a selfish reason. This iteration of Shirou is intentionally contrasting UBW Shirou, who decided to follow his selfless ideals no matter what because he knows his ideals "aren't wrong". |
Draconix814 said: CyborgSaber said: Shiros "I want to say someone" mindset makes sense in Heaven's Feel because of his long relationship with Sakura, in Vow in the Snow it's Miyu who was like a sister to him, and in UBW there no one I guess Saber but just didn't like it that's what I mean it didn't feel right to me. The narrative works with Shiros mindset in HF and Vow in the Snow. I only brought up the wiki because you said there power levels. I think that power levels in Fate are BS anyways. Shirou's ideals of saving anyone at the cost of himself has to do with the relationship with his father, Kiritsugu and a condition called "Survivor's guilt", which is a consequence of him surviving the Fourth Holy Grail War. It is ingrained into him as part of his philosophy and has nothing to do with any love interest he may have. UBW, even in VN terms, is the most popular route because it is the end of the "Light Side of the Moon" arc of the story, embodied by Fate and UBW. HF is the "Dark Side of the Moon". UBW challenges his broken ideals by presenting him with his future self, Archer, as the main antagonist. Archer is named "Heroic Spirit Emiya"; he embodies the ideals of Kiritsugu Emiya that Shirou Emiya borrowed, and is the result of Shirou not being able to save Saber at the end of the Fate Route (in a hypothetical bad ending). I used to hate UBW as well. But after reading the Visual Novel, I've come to love it as it cements Shirou as the character with the strongest writing in all of Fate, and in all of the Nasuverse. And as I've read the manga for Fate/Illya 3rei, including the part covered by Oath under Snow, I can tell you that while Shirou's character goes through many significant character developments, it is because this iteration of Shirou betrays his ideals. Instead of saving anyone at the cost of himself, he looks to save one person for a selfish reason. This iteration of Shirou is intentionally contrasting UBW Shirou, who decided to follow his selfless ideals no matter what because he knows his ideals "aren't wrong". Ok I will be honest I don't like VNs they bore me a lot that's just me. I am basing my opinion of Shiro on the anime. I have said it multiple times I don't like Shiro in UBW that goes for Saber and Rin and everyone else I think UBW is very basic and weak in writing compared to Heaven's Feel and other Type Moon properties. Shiro could be the best written character ever it doesn't make me like him. Honestly I don't think he is that well written because for the most part he has basic ideals and a self insert kind of personality. Let's not forget Fate was originally a hentai game too. Shiro is not that good of a character for me looking at him from an anime standpoint he for the most part feels like Fujiwara Mashs master from grand order and he was a self insert character plus Fujiwara wanted to save everyone too. Shiros personality is very basic anime MC mentality I want to save everyone yeah it might be his survivors guilt but that's extremely common too. I'm sorry I appreciate the video but it doesn't make me like Shiro anymore than I used to and people can make videos analyzing anything at the end of the day it's just an opinion too. You also explained the point I was making on why I didn't like Shiro in UBW because he sacrifices his ideals to save someone. For me Shiro is an alright character I don't hate him but he does nothing for me hes just not interesting to watch especially with the many other characters in Fate he's boring for the most part. I don't think he is the best character in the Fate Universe let alone the Nasu Verse either that's my opinion if you think he is that's fine I respect your opinion. |
CyborgSaber said: Draconix814 said: Shirou's ideals of saving anyone at the cost of himself has to do with the relationship with his father, Kiritsugu and a condition called "Survivor's guilt", which is a consequence of him surviving the Fourth Holy Grail War. It is ingrained into him as part of his philosophy and has nothing to do with any love interest he may have. UBW, even in VN terms, is the most popular route because it is the end of the "Light Side of the Moon" arc of the story, embodied by Fate and UBW. HF is the "Dark Side of the Moon". UBW challenges his broken ideals by presenting him with his future self, Archer, as the main antagonist. Archer is named "Heroic Spirit Emiya"; he embodies the ideals of Kiritsugu Emiya that Shirou Emiya borrowed, and is the result of Shirou not being able to save Saber at the end of the Fate Route (in a hypothetical bad ending). I used to hate UBW as well. But after reading the Visual Novel, I've come to love it as it cements Shirou as the character with the strongest writing in all of Fate, and in all of the Nasuverse. And as I've read the manga for Fate/Illya 3rei, including the part covered by Oath under Snow, I can tell you that while Shirou's character goes through many significant character developments, it is because this iteration of Shirou betrays his ideals. Instead of saving anyone at the cost of himself, he looks to save one person for a selfish reason. This iteration of Shirou is intentionally contrasting UBW Shirou, who decided to follow his selfless ideals no matter what because he knows his ideals "aren't wrong". Ok I will be honest I don't like VNs they bore me a lot that's just me. I am basing my opinion of Shiro on the anime. I have said it multiple times I don't like Shiro in UBW that goes for Saber and Rin and everyone else I think UBW is very basic and weak in writing compared to Heaven's Feel and other Type Moon properties. Shiro could be the best written character ever it doesn't make me like him. Honestly I don't think he is that well written because for the most part he has basic ideals and a self insert kind of personality. Let's not forget Fate was originally a hentai game too. Shiro is not that good of a character for me looking at him from an anime standpoint he for the most part feels like Fujiwara Mashs master from grand order and he was a self insert character plus Fujiwara wanted to save everyone too. Shiros personality is very basic anime MC mentality I want to save everyone yeah it might be his survivors guilt but that's extremely common too. I'm sorry I appreciate the video but it doesn't make me like Shiro anymore than I used to and people can make videos analyzing anything at the end of the day it's just an opinion too. You also explained the point I was making on why I didn't like Shiro in UBW because he sacrifices his ideals to save someone. For me Shiro is an alright character I don't hate him but he does nothing for me hes just not interesting to watch especially with the many other characters in Fate he's boring for the most part. I don't think he is the best character in the Fate Universe let alone the Nasu Verse either that's my opinion if you think he is that's fine I respect your opinion. I respect your opinion as well, but I would like to point out, from your list, you favor a one, Koyomi Araragi from the Bakemonogatari series. Do you remember Araragi? I mean, seriously, his entire character arc was more or less about his extremely low sense of self worth and his hypocritical ideals of justice and being a hero. As someone who has read both the Monogatari novels and the Fate/ Stay Night VN, the similarities between the two characters are hard to miss. And the quality of writing, and both their thematic cores are remarkably similar. (Example: Nisemonogatari and Unlimited Blade Works both discuss at length the themes of being a "fake". In Nise, Araragi is pushed to confront the pure version of his ideals of Justice in Karen. In UBW, in relation to Shirou and Archer's projection magic being an "imitation" of the real thing, and them both being an "imitation" of a hero, they confront each other with their broken ideals of justice. The writing is essentially the same.) I understand you are basing your analysis on the anime adaptations. I completely understand why you would have this point of view and I'm not trying to push you to read something you don't want to read... But that's kinda the point of this forum. It is an absolute shame that Anime watchers don't get the same experience that VN readers like myself have with Shirou, and thus, the core element of the Fate Franchise is lost in adaptation. As much as I love the rest of the Nasuverse and its characters and it's waifus, Fate Stay Night shines because of Shirou, it's main protagonist. |
Draconix814 said: CyborgSaber said: Ok I will be honest I don't like VNs they bore me a lot that's just me. I am basing my opinion of Shiro on the anime. I have said it multiple times I don't like Shiro in UBW that goes for Saber and Rin and everyone else I think UBW is very basic and weak in writing compared to Heaven's Feel and other Type Moon properties. Shiro could be the best written character ever it doesn't make me like him. Honestly I don't think he is that well written because for the most part he has basic ideals and a self insert kind of personality. Let's not forget Fate was originally a hentai game too. Shiro is not that good of a character for me looking at him from an anime standpoint he for the most part feels like Fujiwara Mashs master from grand order and he was a self insert character plus Fujiwara wanted to save everyone too. Shiros personality is very basic anime MC mentality I want to save everyone yeah it might be his survivors guilt but that's extremely common too. I'm sorry I appreciate the video but it doesn't make me like Shiro anymore than I used to and people can make videos analyzing anything at the end of the day it's just an opinion too. You also explained the point I was making on why I didn't like Shiro in UBW because he sacrifices his ideals to save someone. For me Shiro is an alright character I don't hate him but he does nothing for me hes just not interesting to watch especially with the many other characters in Fate he's boring for the most part. I don't think he is the best character in the Fate Universe let alone the Nasu Verse either that's my opinion if you think he is that's fine I respect your opinion. I respect your opinion as well, but I would like to point out, from your list, you favor a one, Koyomi Araragi from the Bakemonogatari series. Do you remember Araragi? I mean, seriously, his entire character arc was more or less about his extremely low sense of self worth and his hypocritical ideals of justice and being a hero. As someone who has read both the Monogatari novels and the Fate/ Stay Night VN, the similarities between the two characters are hard to miss. And the quality of writing, and both their thematic cores are remarkably similar. (Example: Nisemonogatari and Unlimited Blade Works both discuss at length the themes of being a "fake". In Nise, Araragi is pushed to confront the pure version of his ideals of Justice in Karen. In UBW, in relation to Shirou and Archer's projection magic being an "imitation" of the real thing, and them both being an "imitation" of a hero, they confront each other with their broken ideals of justice. The writing is essentially the same.) I understand you are basing your analysis on the anime adaptations. I completely understand why you would have this point of view and I'm not trying to push you to read something you don't want to read... But that's kinda the point of this forum. It is an absolute shame that Anime watchers don't get the same experience that VN readers like myself have with Shirou, and thus, the core element of the Fate Franchise is lost in adaptation. As much as I love the rest of the Nasuverse and its characters and it's waifus, Fate Stay Night shines because of Shirou, it's main protagonist. I will be completely honest I like Araragi because he's just fun to watch. Yeah I get what your saying the similarities are there between the two it's just Araragi is just more entertaining for me at least. I like Fate/Stay Night and most of the Nasu Verse except for Fate/Extra Lost Encore and I also like Shiro too. I loved him in the Vow in the Snow movie and the Heaven's Feel Route just UBW I had a lot of problems with. I love history it's what made me want to watch Fate because I get to see historical figures fight yeah I know it's obviously exaggerated with their powers and stuff and it's anime but it's still a fun and interesting concept. I just don't like how Shiro powers up in UBW if I'm being honest he just doesn't earn his power compared to the rest of the cast of characters excluding servents. He just gets stronger from being around Archer and gets a power up from Rin and can take down Gilgamesh. I also hated Gilgamesh in the main Fate routes I just liked him a lot in the Grand Order anime. I like Fates power system but their power scaling is a mess. For me Shiros mentality about saving everyone is done to death and on top of that he's just a boring person who just wants to be good. I just don't like UBW at all and if I rewatch it I would probably lower my score of both seasons. As for the VNs I would play them but I just can't I'm a huge Steins;Gate fan it's my favorite anime and I just could not get through the VN idk why I just get bored. I think Shiros character is fine and I used to watch videos on why Shiro is the best but I just don't see it. I just find characters like Rin, Sakura, Kirei Kotomine and Illya just more interesting in Stay Night if we are talking about characters in the present. I also like Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai a lot more too I just think Shiro would be better as a side characters more than a main character. |
CyborgSaber said: Draconix814 said: I respect your opinion as well, but I would like to point out, from your list, you favor a one, Koyomi Araragi from the Bakemonogatari series. Do you remember Araragi? I mean, seriously, his entire character arc was more or less about his extremely low sense of self worth and his hypocritical ideals of justice and being a hero. As someone who has read both the Monogatari novels and the Fate/ Stay Night VN, the similarities between the two characters are hard to miss. And the quality of writing, and both their thematic cores are remarkably similar. (Example: Nisemonogatari and Unlimited Blade Works both discuss at length the themes of being a "fake". In Nise, Araragi is pushed to confront the pure version of his ideals of Justice in Karen. In UBW, in relation to Shirou and Archer's projection magic being an "imitation" of the real thing, and them both being an "imitation" of a hero, they confront each other with their broken ideals of justice. The writing is essentially the same.) I understand you are basing your analysis on the anime adaptations. I completely understand why you would have this point of view and I'm not trying to push you to read something you don't want to read... But that's kinda the point of this forum. It is an absolute shame that Anime watchers don't get the same experience that VN readers like myself have with Shirou, and thus, the core element of the Fate Franchise is lost in adaptation. As much as I love the rest of the Nasuverse and its characters and it's waifus, Fate Stay Night shines because of Shirou, it's main protagonist. I will be completely honest I like Araragi because he's just fun to watch. Yeah I get what your saying the similarities are there between the two it's just Araragi is just more entertaining for me at least. I like Fate/Stay Night and most of the Nasu Verse except for Fate/Extra Lost Encore and I also like Shiro too. I loved him in the Vow in the Snow movie and the Heaven's Feel Route just UBW I had a lot of problems with. I love history it's what made me want to watch Fate because I get to see historical figures fight yeah I know it's obviously exaggerated with their powers and stuff and it's anime but it's still a fun and interesting concept. I just don't like how Shiro powers up in UBW if I'm being honest he just doesn't earn his power compared to the rest of the cast of characters excluding servents. He just gets stronger from being around Archer and gets a power up from Rin and can take down Gilgamesh. I also hated Gilgamesh in the main Fate routes I just liked him a lot in the Grand Order anime. I like Fates power system but their power scaling is a mess. For me Shiros mentality about saving everyone is done to death and on top of that he's just a boring person who just wants to be good. I just don't like UBW at all and if I rewatch it I would probably lower my score of both seasons. As for the VNs I would play them but I just can't I'm a huge Steins;Gate fan it's my favorite anime and I just could not get through the VN idk why I just get bored. I think Shiros character is fine and I used to watch videos on why Shiro is the best but I just don't see it. I just find characters like Rin, Sakura, Kirei Kotomine and Illya just more interesting in Stay Night if we are talking about characters in the present. I also like Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai a lot more too I just think Shiro would be better as a side characters more than a main character. Wait but HF Shirou works even less for his powers than UBW Shirou. He just gets Archer's arm and he just has to make sure his mind doesn't explode from using it. UBW Shirou constantly struggles with his abilities and works to improve them, until his confrontation with Archer gives him a lesson in projection magic every time their blades hit. He gains knowledge of how to construct UBW, but he is unable to construct it himself until he mana transfers has sex with Rin. He is only able to defeat Gilgamesh because UBW is the exact opposite ability as Gate of Babylon, and Gilgamesh did not take Shirou seriously at any part of their duel. These are well-devised plans and well-earned moments for Shirou in UBW. And it's not like Shirou went super saiyan in his battle with Gil. He manages to get one devastating blow in to Gil before the grail swallows Gil whole, and even then Shirou would've lost if Archer didn't shoot Gil in the head. So again, I don't think the stigma you have towards UBW is warranted or justified considering that HF Shirou is basically useless until Archer sacrifices himself for Shirou. It's obvious that you just like the romantic tragedies presented in HF and Oath Under Snow, which is completely fine. But HF Shirou would not be believable in any sense without knowing what Shirou is capable of when he decides to pursue Archer in UBW. And Oath Under Snow Shirou is literally him incorporating Heroic Spirit Emiya into his body. And again, you call Shirou a boring person, but that's not true in the slightest. He's a mentally broken individual, a fascinating character study, and has a huge personality. If we had an anime that just adapted the dialogue of Monogatari and made it a fairly straight anime, you would think that "while he says some weird thing sometimes, he ultimately comes off as boring and uninteresting". (Hell, people say that about Araragi still, and his monologue was faithfully adapted...) Similarly, a lot of Shirou's profound character building is done in his monologue and is addressed in UBW and HF. And then expanded upon in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. Without the monologue, you don't get any of his quick wit, his sarcasm, his intelligence or his detailed philosophy and trauma. It's your loss if you see Shirou as a side character instead of the main. I'm trying to give you insight into what makes Shirou work as the main protag, so I urge you to watch the video I linked in my last reply. It's no replacement for the VN, but I hope I can at least convey to you that there is more to Shirou than meets the eye. If you tried to read Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (hypothetically) without reading F/SN, you would be thrown for a loop with the differences between VN Shirou and Anime Shirou. |
Draconix814 said: CyborgSaber said: I will be completely honest I like Araragi because he's just fun to watch. Yeah I get what your saying the similarities are there between the two it's just Araragi is just more entertaining for me at least. I like Fate/Stay Night and most of the Nasu Verse except for Fate/Extra Lost Encore and I also like Shiro too. I loved him in the Vow in the Snow movie and the Heaven's Feel Route just UBW I had a lot of problems with. I love history it's what made me want to watch Fate because I get to see historical figures fight yeah I know it's obviously exaggerated with their powers and stuff and it's anime but it's still a fun and interesting concept. I just don't like how Shiro powers up in UBW if I'm being honest he just doesn't earn his power compared to the rest of the cast of characters excluding servents. He just gets stronger from being around Archer and gets a power up from Rin and can take down Gilgamesh. I also hated Gilgamesh in the main Fate routes I just liked him a lot in the Grand Order anime. I like Fates power system but their power scaling is a mess. For me Shiros mentality about saving everyone is done to death and on top of that he's just a boring person who just wants to be good. I just don't like UBW at all and if I rewatch it I would probably lower my score of both seasons. As for the VNs I would play them but I just can't I'm a huge Steins;Gate fan it's my favorite anime and I just could not get through the VN idk why I just get bored. I think Shiros character is fine and I used to watch videos on why Shiro is the best but I just don't see it. I just find characters like Rin, Sakura, Kirei Kotomine and Illya just more interesting in Stay Night if we are talking about characters in the present. I also like Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai a lot more too I just think Shiro would be better as a side characters more than a main character. Wait but HF Shirou works even less for his powers than UBW Shirou. He just gets Archer's arm and he just has to make sure his mind doesn't explode from using it. UBW Shirou constantly struggles with his abilities and works to improve them, until his confrontation with Archer gives him a lesson in projection magic every time their blades hit. He gains knowledge of how to construct UBW, but he is unable to construct it himself until he mana transfers has sex with Rin. He is only able to defeat Gilgamesh because UBW is the exact opposite ability as Gate of Babylon, and Gilgamesh did not take Shirou seriously at any part of their duel. These are well-devised plans and well-earned moments for Shirou in UBW. And it's not like Shirou went super saiyan in his battle with Gil. He manages to get one devastating blow in to Gil before the grail swallows Gil whole, and even then Shirou would've lost if Archer didn't shoot Gil in the head. So again, I don't think the stigma you have towards UBW is warranted or justified considering that HF Shirou is basically useless until Archer sacrifices himself for Shirou. It's obvious that you just like the romantic tragedies presented in HF and Oath Under Snow, which is completely fine. But HF Shirou would not be believable in any sense without knowing what Shirou is capable of when he decides to pursue Archer in UBW. And Oath Under Snow Shirou is literally him incorporating Heroic Spirit Emiya into his body. And again, you call Shirou a boring person, but that's not true in the slightest. He's a mentally broken individual, a fascinating character study, and has a huge personality. If we had an anime that just adapted the dialogue of Monogatari and made it a fairly straight anime, instead of Araragi's monologue, you would think that "while he says some weird thing sometimes, he ultimately comes off as boring and uninteresting". (Hell, people say that about Araragi still, and his monologue was faithfully adapted...) Similarly, a lot of Shirou's profound character building is done in his monologue and is addressed in UBW and HF. And then expanded upon in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. Without the monologue, you don't get any of his quick wit, his sarcasm, his intelligence or his detailed philosophy and trauma. It's your loss if you see Shirou as a side character instead of the main. I'm trying to give you insight into what makes Shirou work as the main protag, so I urge you to watch the video I linked in my last reply. It's no replacement for the VN, but I hope I can at least convey to you that there is more to Shirou than meets the eye. If you tried to read Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (hypothetically) without reading F/SN, you would be thrown for a loop with the differences between VN Shirou and Anime Shirou. You do realise this is my opinion right you make it sound like I'm wrong that I think this I think Shiro is boring and you don't its that simple. You can send videos and state your opinion as much as possible it won't change mine. I like Araragi a lot more than Shiro because Araragi is fun to watch Shiro is not for me hes dull and I get it Fate is a dark story but it just makes him more unlikable for me. Shiros getting archers arm and powers I can get behind and when he uses that power it is literally killing him. I just like him in Heaven's Feel more I did not like UBW at all and I have stated this multiple times it wasn't just Shiro that made me not like UBW it was Saber and Rin too. And I will be honest he wasn't even my favorite in Heaven's Feel either Sakura, Rin and Kirei Kotomine where the ones that interested me a lot more hell even Rider too. I also never said I view him as a side character I just feel he would be better utilized as a side character rather than a main character. I would watch the videos but I just don't care about his characters enough I will be honest if it's my loss than so be it he just doesn't interest me at all. I watched tons of videos on why HxH is the greatest anime ever to change my opinion still doesn't make me like it anymore than I already do which is not a lot because I gave it a 5/10. Shiro does nothing for me and he's not unique or well written in my eyes. I'm kind of done with this topic this is my opinion. |
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