| nop lelouch is alive. you're just ignorant |
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
| I’m just going to point out that when someone inherits a code, the anime makes it clear that the bearer must die before the code is properly activated. In R2 ep 15 the anime by all accounts makes it seem like Lelouch is able to successfully use Geass on Charles (via Charles growling and the animation making it seem like the geass command went through) to make him kill himself eventhough he had successfully stolen V2’s code. It’s also strongly suggested that CC died prior to her code activating since the first time she wakes up as an immortal, we see her covered in several wounds. I guess there could be a non-trivial possibility that death isn’t needed for a code’s activation, but based on everything the anime has shown, it would be fair to conclude that death is a necessity for code to activate. |
SSj97May 10, 2019 8:03 PM
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
LelouchviBritMER said: SSj97 said: I’m just going to point out that when someone inherits a code, the anime makes it clear that the bearer must die before the code is properly activated. That is, in fact, not true and even denied by the anime creators themselves. They explained that codes do not need activation by explaining that Charles never died in episode 15, that he was only pretending, that he was already immune to geass and immortal BEFORE he shot himself, i.e. he already had an "active code" before he fired, and thus codes do not require activation and thus codes are never not active. In a live commentary the anime creators said: 「これギアス掛かってないのに死んだふりするんだよ」「息子を驚かせようと」「ルルーシュくんかわいそう」「これ一番ショックなタイミング計ってるよね」「絶対笑いこらえてるよ」って色々言われてて笑った。 "He isn't geassed, just pretends he dies!" " He tries to surprise his son!" "Poor Lelouch" "He tries to choose the most shocking timing, doesn't he" "I'm sure he tries hard not to laugh" This is documented in the Code Geass Community Information Database which has all the official statements and debunks myths like "code activation". It honestly seems like they initially intended for it to be open ended and then later on well after the show had ended decided to retroactively provide all of these ‘canon interpretations’ in order to go more firmly on the ‘he’s dead side’. You can’t deny that the anime itself leaves open the interpretation that Lelouch could be alive else there would never have been years worth of ferocious debate on it (unless your stance is everyone on the Lelouch is alive side are deluded morons with a massive confirmation bias who can’t accept that the mc had died permanently). If it was always meant to be unequivocally clear that he stayed dead and didn’t inherit a code, they could have conveyed that in a far clearer fashion than they did. You made a hypothetical example like people suddenly saying ‘Luke could possibly not really be a jedi’ as a counterpoint to the claim that fans can just interpret whatever they want about a given character or franchise; however, it’s worth noting that a large section of the CG audience from watching the show came to the conclusion that Lelouch was alive at the end whereas the same can’t be said for the other example. At the end of the day anime is a piece of art (literally speaking it’s art in motion) and as such it can be subject to multiple distinct interpretations and also as with art some of those interpretations needn’t coincide with the author’s own views. Purely based on what is shown in the anime (not any post show statements), it would be feasible to interpret the scene in r2 ep 15 both as charles dying and then getting revived upon which the code activates or Charles just massively trolling. Again based SOLELY on the anime itself, it’s impossible to say 1 way or the other especially since the animation made it seem like Lelouch’s geass order went through. In addition the C.C example is also compatible with either line of thinking. Those wounds strongly indicate she experienced death, but at the same time it doesn’t confirm that she did (though then it begs the question why they were even inflicted on her; maybe the nun really was just that crazy from her immortal hell). Yes when given 2 contrasting interpretations, you accept the interpretation with the higher probability of being true, but I don’t see any way to argue (based only on what is shown in the anime) that the interpretation that death isn’t required for code activation is the interpretation with higher probability of being true. I actually think it makes more thematic sense for him to stay dead and I’m incredibly thankful that the movie series takes place in an au, but I do take issue with the ‘he’s dead’ side in this debate claiming that the other side has no basis for their interpretation. Yes there are limits to what can be interpreted, but at the same time it isn’t impossible for there to be contradictory interpretations both of which are compatible with what has been observed in the show. |
SSj97May 10, 2019 9:00 PM
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
LelouchviBritMER said: SSj97 said: It honestly seems like they initially intended for it to be open ended and then later on well after the show had ended decided to retroactively provide all of these ‘canon interpretations’ in order to go more firmly on the ‘he’s dead side’. That is actually not what happened. We know this thanks to the 10 years anniversary event, the "Geass Memories" series where show staff tweeted about how they made the show 10 years earlier. in one of those tweets it is said by Okouchi: "Before I started writing the story of a person called Lelouch, I confirmed with Taniguchi-director something. That thing was that the end of Lelouch will be death." So we do know that the decision to kill off Lelouch was taken before they even started writing the show. Here’s the funny thing; nowhere in any of those do they ever say that Lelouch STAYS dead since I’m working on the assumption that code activates after death. The community has dissected all those "clues" and found that none of them hold true. All of them were either misrepresentations of what happened in the anime (e.g. Nunnally saw NO visions or memories), fake and fabricated (such as that fake video showing Lelouch's face as the cart driver), or were just assumptions which didn't have a basis in the anime (e.g. Lelouch being special and an exception to the rules of codes and geass, allowing him to keep his How can you be sure of the Nunnally part? I’m sorry but the official reason they gave about Nunnally understanding someone by touch doesn’t work for me else why was Nunnally completely unaware of Lelouch being zero in s1? That honestly seemed analogous to when Lelouch and Suzaku were expereincing visions by interacting with c2. There are still people debating the earth is flat, despite the enormous amount of proof that it isn't. People debating things doesn't mean there is any doubt about the subject. The percentage of code geass fans who think Lelouch is alive is far greater than the percentage of people that think the earth is flat in this day and age. Try again! How? I'm not being sarcastic or so, my question is genuine. The show made it impossible for Lelouch to have a code, because that would have violated the rules the anime has previously established. So without code he gets stabbed on screen and bleeds out on screen. We literally see him die. I don't know what more they could have done. Adding, for example, a funeral wouldn't have given more clarity because then code theorists would simply say there's no real body in the coffin, and the funeral was part of the deception. Don’t make it seem like Nunnally is experiencing visions analogous to what Lelouch/Suzaku did when interacting with CC. Don’t have an overly clothed cart driver at the end. Don’t have CC tilt her head towards said cart driver when saying ‘isn’t that right, Lelouch’. Don’t have someone like CC who believes immortality is hell and death is freedom say that Lelouch will pay the ‘ultimate’ price. Make someone (like CC) explicitly mention that Charles’s code was permanently erased or merged with the collective unconsciousness or whatever (heck even I find him inheriting Charles’s code like that to be dubious, but clearly the staff saw some merit in it since they used a variant of that for the new movie). Just a few. But that is not a carte blanche, it's not a pass to do whatever. Interpretations still need to be consistent with the presented material, and the show makes it impossible for Lelouch to have a code. It doesn’t, if death is needed before a code activates. Disregarding all the official statements for now, code theory is still not possible because the anime was very clear they people who get the code lose the geass. they even had Charles explicitly confirm that. Lelouch never lost his geass, so he couldn't have gotten the code. Sure activation of code erases geass. I’ve never disputed that. Even that would be highly problematic, since we see the "geass beam" fly to Charles eye and be "blocked", we see that Charles had no red rings around his eyes as always happens when Lelouch geasses someone, we see that there was no blue brain programming scene. So there's actually no basis for believing the geass worked. No it was blocked when Lelouch tried it again after he got back up. It did go through when Lelouch used that mirror reflection trick. Could you provide me with photos that contrast what eyes should normally look like when geassed with what Charles’s eyes looked like right before he died? Well, as said above, the anime shows us Charles was not affected by Lelouch's geass. being immune to geass can mean only 1 thing: Charles already has an active code. The only way to make that work with the idea that codes need activation is by assuming that Charles quickly committed suicide off screen, but that this was never mentioned, shown or hinted at, not even any visible wounds or blood, no damaged clothes, nothing. I've never seen anyone make that argument, and it is, indeed, a very silly argument. The way I saw it, it did work the first time and Lelouch only bothers to mention it isn’t working when he tries it again after Charles gets up. The animation also looks different with the geass seeming more clearly rejected the 2nd time. This would even be in contrast with Shirley where the animation seems to indicate that the geass went through but of course had no effect since it can only be used once per person. It's a direct contradiction of what the show has established on the transfer of codes. And all of the "clues" for code theory have been thoroughly scrutinized by the community and eventually debunked. The claim that there is no support for the "he's immortal" side didn't drop out of the sky, it's the conclusion of years of analyzing by the community. I recommend reading the database which, among other things, goes over these things. I don’t see you refuting the CC example which would seem to support death being needed for code activation. |
SSj97May 10, 2019 11:13 PM
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
| https://myanimelist.net/news/57498462 That shows the latest opinions of the staff themselves on this subject. They flat out say that they deliberately made the ending vague and open to viewer interpretation which was my point. End of discussion; I’m done here. |
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
LelouchviBritMER said: For anyone interested, all these official statements, and much more, are part of the Code Geass Community Information Database. I highly recommend checking it out. SSj97 said: https://myanimelist.net/news/57498462 That shows the latest opinions of the staff themselves on this subject. They flat out say that they deliberately made the ending vague and open to viewer interpretation which was my point. End of discussion; I’m done here. I am well aware and this change has only come about after the release of the new movie. They can say now they wanted it vague, but all their words, all their actions in the past scream otherwise. It's easy to see why the change of course. They used to hammer on the fact that it was their sense of ethics that Lelouch was dead, and now they resurrect them. So what does that say about their sense of ethics? Clearly not as important as the need for money. So obviously they couldn't keep repeating their old words. Let me give you some examples of their words and their deeds, and then ask yourself how this is "keeping it vague" Here are some of the things they said in Continue Vol.42: - "While it's undeniable that Lelouch's story has ended with a full stop, the other characters' stories are still on-going" - "Lelouch says in the first episode: "Only those prepared to be shot are allowed to pull the trigger themselves." If you were to think of that as his pride, then I think his getting killed in the end was a logical end." Here's what they said in Animage - "C.C. also wished for tomorrow. She made up her mind to ensure the tomorrow of the world that Lelouch had left." - "Lelouch got his salvation by choosing not the happiness of living on but to sacrifice his own life to create the situation for the world to move forward." Here's what they said in the "Geass Memories" series where they explained how they made the anime: - "Before I started writing the story of a person called Lelouch, I confirmed with Taniguchi-director something. That thing was that the end of Lelouch will be death." - "At least he is aware of his sins and pays for them with his death." - "This man called Lelouch will pay for his sins by his death. The story follows him till he finally make this decision." Here is the list of everyone who died in R2, lelouch is on that list. here is the Official guide Book where they explain the Zero requiem: - "For those two who bear the heavy sin known as killing their fathers, they share the belief that they can forgive each other by imposing the greatest punishments on themselves. Death for Lelouch who wishes for a tomorrow with his sister, life for Suzaku who wishes to atone for his sins through death." Here is the [/url=https://streamable.com/d8dji]2009 epilogue[/url] for which they dropped the sometimes misunderstood cart scene and where they had C.C. explicitly tell the audience that lelouch is dead and that she mourns his death. - "A young man dies. He had the power to change the world, to create a new order. The world feared him, hated him. But, I know he died with a smile on his face. Only those who have realised their dream will truly understand that feeling of utter contentment. So, this is not a tragedy. And whenever I feel sad or cry at night, I sing a song. A song of man's making. Zero Requiem!" The show staff even explicitly contradicted some of the cornerstones of code theory! Here they deny that codes need to be activated by death by explaining Charles already had a code and never died: 「これギアス掛かってないのに死んだふりするんだよ」「息子を驚かせようと」「ルルーシュくんかわいそう」「これ一番ショックなタイミング計ってるよね」「絶対笑いこらえてるよ」って色々言われてて笑った。 "He isn't geassed, just pretends he dies!" " He tries to surprise his son!" "Poor Lelouch" "He tries to choose the most shocking timing, doesn't he" "I'm sure he tries hard not to laugh" And here they explain that Nunnally saw no visions or memories: "The way Nunnally can tell that someone is lying, just like she was able to tell that Lohmeyer was lying to her, is that she can feel the hand of the person she is talking to is sweating or lightly trembling. It's nothing like Geass or some special ability like that." "Yes. So, she simply came to conclusion [Lelouch was lying] by herself, because of this ability." Now tell me, does this match with the very recent statement that they deliberately kept it vague? are these the actions and words of someone who is trying to be vague? Any sane man with a a bit of sincerity would say no. They are HAMMERING on the fact that Lelouch is totally dead. No vagueness at all, they are slapping it in our faces. Even as recently as 2018 (Geass memories). Only now with the release of the movie did Taniguchi suddenly pretend they were trying to be vague, while everything screams the opposite. For anyone interested, all these official statements, and much more, are part of the Code Geass Community Information Database. I highly recommend checking it out. Not going to bother anymore. Fact is the most up to date stance of the people that actually made the show is that the ending was deliberately made vague and left to viewer interpretation which was the main point I was trying to assert. This is an undeniable fact and it runs in direct contradiction to the conclusion that you’re asserting for the ending after seemingly so much painstaking research. By the word of the ‘gods’ of the Code Geass verse themselves, my view is right and your view is wrong on this matter. I win; you loose; gg. |
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
LelouchviBritMER said: SSj97 said: Not going to bother anymore. Fact is the most up to date stance of the people that actually made the show is that the ending was deliberately made vague and left to viewer interpretation which was the main point I was trying to assert. This is an undeniable fact and it runs in direct contradiction to the conclusion that you’re asserting for the ending after seemingly so much painstaking research. By the word of the ‘gods’ of the Code Geass verse themselves, my view is right and your view is wrong on this matter. You can't retcon real life. Buying an apple yesterday and today claiming that you didn't but an apple doesn't suddenly undo you buying that apple. The real world isn't fiction, it doesn't work like that. An author can retcon his work, but he cannot retcon his life. The show staff claiming with force that Lelouch is totally dead is something done in real life, it is not an in-universe event. Therefore they cannot undo it. Nothing said or done now can change the words which were said in the past in the real world. You know this, but you are being deliberately ignorant just to push a narrative. No matter what they do or say now, it is an unchangeable fact that everything they ever said or did regarding Lelouch's fate in the past was the literal opposite of "vague". i have given ample examples of that. People can read all the official statements in the Code Geass Community Information Database Real life words can't be retconned. Are you 6 years old? This isn't about winning or losing. (also it's "lose", not "loose") geez, some people ... You’re just a sore loser because the creators of the show flat-out debunked the conclusion of your oh so precious database. Reality is that their word has far more value than yours, so it’s you who’s living in delusion. I’m right; you’re wrong; gg ^_^. |
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
LelouchviBritMER said: And again, the while winning-losing thing, like you're a 6 year old. SSj97 said: because the creators of the show flat-out debunked the conclusion of your oh so precious database. Not in the slightest. All they did was say things which don't match with what they've been saying and doing for 10 years. That doesn't change what they did do and did say these years. All of these things can be read in the Code Geass Community Information Database SSj97 said: I’m right; you’re wrong; gg ^_^. yeah, it's obvious now that you're just a 6 year old troll. Yeah it’s even more obvious now that you’re a sore loser that can’t accept the truth when it has been spelled out for you by people with far more credibility on this subject than you will ever have. This thread should be closed since the ‘official confirmation’ of Lelouch’s fate is that it’s ambiguous and subject to viewer interpretation like I’ve been saying all along; case closed! You can either except reality for what it is or live in your own delusional bubble forever; doesn’t matter to me since the truth will stand that I’m right and you’re wrong on this issue. Good day ^_^. |
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
| Cool and the latest (ergo most relevant) ‘official statements’ on the matter can be read right here: https://myanimelist.net/news/57498462 |
| The right to violate the rights of the people belong only to the people themselves! |
SSj97 said: Cool and the latest (ergo most relevant) ‘official statements’ on the matter can be read right here: https://myanimelist.net/news/57498462 Lol, now it seems like the fans went all "Hey you fuckwads, we say Lelouch is dead, aye!?" Creators : " FFS, yeah HE IS DEAD because of this being interpreted as that, YOU HAPPY NOW?! " xD |
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
| I don't understand why the same topic still manages to set keyboards ablaze. The show ended like 10 years ago. At this point I'm just surprised how many people are still in denial about his death. Is the death of a beloved character really that hard to accept? Are happy endings really that culturally ingrained to us? My best guess is that people are just so unused to seeing a tragic ending that they fail to even comprehend the possibility and thus resort to these tin foil hat theories. |
NthDegree said: I don't understand why the same topic still manages to set keyboards ablaze. The show ended like 10 years ago. At this point I'm just surprised how many people are still in denial about his death. Is the death of a beloved character really that hard to accept? Are happy endings really that culturally ingrained to us? My best guess is that people are just so unused to seeing a tragic ending that they fail to even comprehend the possibility and thus resort to these tin foil hat theories. its been ages since i watched this show but the hints of Lelouch being an immortal like CC is there though and for an anime production that have a well planning stage then coincidences on its own story is like impossible hints of Lelouch being immortal that i remember - when Lelouch touched CC the first time he experience all the memories of immortal CC, this same thing happened when Lelouch in a dying state is touched by Nunally in the last episode i think - CC calls the cart driver as Lelouch since she pointed her head towards him on the last episode |
deg said: NthDegree said: I don't understand why the same topic still manages to set keyboards ablaze. The show ended like 10 years ago. At this point I'm just surprised how many people are still in denial about his death. Is the death of a beloved character really that hard to accept? Are happy endings really that culturally ingrained to us? My best guess is that people are just so unused to seeing a tragic ending that they fail to even comprehend the possibility and thus resort to these tin foil hat theories. its been ages since i watched this show but the hints of Lelouch being an immortal like CC is there though and for an anime production that have a well planning stage then coincidences on its own story is like impossible hints of Lelouch being immortal that i remember - when Lelouch touched CC the first time he experience all the memories of immortal CC, this same thing happened when Lelouch in a dying state is touched by Nunally in the last episode i think - CC calls the cart driver as Lelouch since she pointed her head towards him on the last episode Eh, I thought that was just Lelouch himself remembering those things, not Nunally. You know before you die they say your life flashes before your eyes. As LelouchviBritMER has already stated C.C was looking at the sky, implying he's looking down from heaven. Nothing in the scene implied that she was talking to the coachman. But really, I'm not interested in having the same conversation I've had for 10 years now. I'm just wondering whether there is some cultural bias against tragic endings in the audience. |
| @NthDegree @LelouchviBritMER lets just agree to disagree then, i just find this thread title misleading since there is NEW statement by the staff that the original series ending is subject to interpretation anyway |
LelouchviBritMER said: deg said: @NthDegree @LelouchviBritMER there is NEW statement by the staff that the original series ending is subject to interpretation anyway Yes, the first and only one which is inconsistent with 10 years of repeating the same thing. They changed their tune after the new movie was released because the old statements "his death was essential for our sense of ethics" sounded a bit odd in light of that new movie where they had C.C. literally resurrect him from the dead. The new statement doesn't change anything since they were talking about their intentions (keeping it vague) and not about the story. An author can change his story, but he can't change the real world. There's 10 years of real life statements where they keep repeating and repeating and repeating that he's dead. They even changed the epilogue to have C.C. lecture us on how dead he is. Now suddenly saying "we were vague" is a bit disingenuous. err i do not plan to continue but i got a lot of free time anyway look your evidences against the story "coincidences" is base on this staff statements in the past but now that same staff have flip-flop thats why i base the lelouch is alive belief on what the show gives, simple as that |
| @LelouchviBritMER im just gonna say that asspulls exist and i just watch the last scene of CC again, she said the power of geass isolate or make people lonely but that is not exactly correct then call the name of Lelouch, fucking hints dude lol anyway i got nothing more to say at this point so if i do not reply back im still gonna read your last reply |
LelouchviBritMER said: deg said: and i just watch the last scene of CC again, she said the power of geass isolate or make people lonely but that is not exactly correct then call the name of Lelouch, fucking hints dude lol I'm afraid you're the one missing the hint. This is the official explanation of that scene: "Knowing that Lelouch does not hate her for giving him the Geass, she is now able to show her true feelings. With the realization of "Zero Requiem", her time with Lelouch, who was able to forgive and accept her, came to an end, but the memories created with him has, without doubt, saved her from eternal loneliness." Furthermore, the cart scene was dropped in 2009 when they made a new epilogue where C.C. directly addresses the viewer and explicitly explains that Lelouch is dead and she mourns his death. You can watch it here Both of these elements, and many many many more are all part of the Code Geass Community Information Database I strongly recommend reading it. you did it again lol you rely on staff explanations (that cannot be trusted now) instead of what the story gives with its "coincidences" that like i said is impossible to happen because of long planning involving original anime like this anyway i rest my case here |
LelouchviBritMER said: deg said: you did it again lol you rely on staff explanations (that cannot be trusted now) instead of what the story gives The Code Geass Community Information Database consists of 2 parts, the first is all the official statements which make clear Lelouch is totally dead and the second part is showing where the anime itself contradicts the various "clues" of code theory. None of those clues are correct! It is obvious that Lelouch is not the cart driver because the anime itself makes it literally impossible for him to have code. The reason why I also bring up the show staff is because they confirm what the anime shows us: Lelouch is totally dead and not immortal. I strongly suggest you read the Code Geass Community Information Database ok i will bite there is such a thing as asspulls (not in the literal sense here but im showing that plot holes can exist for the sake of story telling) so the code theory might have gotten that asspull treatment too |
LelouchviBritMER said: deg said: ok i will bite there is such a thing as asspulls (not in the literal sense here but im showing that plot holes can exist for the sake of story telling) so the code theory might have gotten that asspull treatment too I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Asspulls by whom? Code theory was made by some fans, did you mean asspull by them? As said, there's nothing in the anime which suggests he could have gotten a code. That was never part of the story the show staff wanted to tell. So it can't be an asspull by them. Or are you saying that the show staff put code theory in the anime without any support for it in the anime and the anime itself making it even impossible, and that this completely unsupported and contradicted idea was somehow coincidentally discovered by fans? That seems incredibly unlikely and unbelievable. We know that code theory was made by fans and not by the show staff, it happened on /a/ on 4chan. Here's a summary from someone who helped do that: "How the Code Geass anime itself doesn’t support the Code Theory " Code theory started as a 4chan prank and became a conspiracy theory which some people believed because they didn't want their beloved character to die. ok forget about that code theory i said since im not that knowledgeable about it anyway i meant to say that the technicalities behind Lelouch being alive is sort of an asspull or plot hole for the sake of story telling, what matters more in the end are the 2 things i mentioned earlier about experiencing memories and the cart driver those are not just mere coincidences |
| @LelouchviBritMER thats why its an asspull or plot hole just for the sake of having him alive in the end and you are using literal thinking here more, that Nunally and Lelouch touching scene with Lelouch memories flashing on the background is similar to Lelouch touching immortal CC (not coincidence) and the cart driver have unusually lots of camera focus for being just mere extra character, and you are ignoring the dialogue of CC on that last scene and also CC is happy saying that especially when he said the words "right Lelouch?" thats another not coincidence moment there |
| I think this needs to be put to rest. Official statement literally says it was meant to be ambiguous. Why are they saying this after 10 years now? Are they being purposefully disingenuous? Why are they bringing up stupid inconsistencies in their statements now? End of story. Order a Pizza. The way the creators have made it sound is that they were forced to justify fan theories. This is the equivalent of fans forcing Christopher Nolan to explain what was the true ending of Inception, and then he has to personally step in to explain what the theme and ending was about and give his own interpretation of the intended ambiguity. |
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
| @LelouchviBritMER and i do not get why its so impossible for him to be alive given those 2 scenes and the fact that your belief on the staff explanations already flip-flop and they now say they left the ending vague anyway im done here for good, you are just so triggered it fucking hurts my eyeballs |
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