| So, I was recently on a MAL thread titled "Shows you dropped because of moral objections?" or something like that. I mentioned Haruhi Suzumiya and Heaven's Lost Property, both of which feature portrayals of sexual molestation as humorous fanservice. Someone posted in response advising that I avoid fanservice series, to which I replied that I had no problem with fanservice, merely a problem with fanservice in which the characters presented sexually were clearly non-consenting, at which point I was mocked for supposedly demanding that all female characters in ecchi be the same. All of this got me thinking: why is it that the idea of consent apparently so alien to the anime commmunity? Has anime really flooded us with so many accidental pervert scenes, comedic molestations and pointlessly ogling camera work that the idea of a character who is being portrayed sexually being willing in revealing her sexuality is now abnormal? Like, seriously, wtf? How is it that medium has become so divorced from how sex works in the real world that unwilling or accidental sexuality has become the norm? I know anime dwells firmly in the realm of fantasy, and that plenty of other mediums have problematic portrayals of sexuality, but I don't think I've seen this problem crop up nearly as often in comics, video games, cinema, books or live-action television. Even Ouran High School Host Club, a series I thoroughly enjoyed, has a pointless 'not quite rape' scene. Is this some dark manifestation of Japanese culture, or is it primarily centralized to the anime industry's culture, or what? If someone has an explanation as to what the hell is going on here, I'd greatly appreciate that. If anyone has recommendations for series in which the characters portrayed sexually ARE willing and shameless in their sexuality (such as Panty & Stocking) I'd love those too. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
InkSpider said: All of this got me thinking: why is it that the idea of consent apparently so alien to the anime commmunity? Has anime really flooded us with so many accidental pervert scenes, comedic molestations and pointlessly ogling camera work that the idea of a character who is being portrayed sexually being willing in revealing her sexuality is now abnormal? Like, seriously, wtf? Well, I don't think the concept of consent is actually alien to anime community. I guess they often understand the problem in actual life, they just don't care, because "It's fiction, so anything goes" and they don't notice that watching stuff like this actually make impact on they behaviour in real life. And it's so popular in echhi comedies, because accidents or molestation is way easier to use for low kind of humour these shows are based on. InkSpider said: How is it that medium has become so divorced from how sex works in the real world that unwilling or accidental sexuality has become the norm? Real world has huge problem with unwilling sexuality too, so I don't see how is the medium so divorced from reality. It's just part of bigger problem When it comes to recommendations for series I won't be much help, since I don't watch lots of ecchi, but from what i remember kuzu no honkai had scenes with consenting people and it's really fine anime |
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Nightmare-chan said: InkSpider said: All of this got me thinking: why is it that the idea of consent apparently so alien to the anime commmunity? Has anime really flooded us with so many accidental pervert scenes, comedic molestations and pointlessly ogling camera work that the idea of a character who is being portrayed sexually being willing in revealing her sexuality is now abnormal? Like, seriously, wtf? Well, I don't think the concept of consent is actually alien to anime community. I guess they often understand the problem in actual life, they just don't care, because "It's fiction, so anything goes" and they don't notice that watching stuff like this actually make impact on they behaviour in real life. And it's so popular in echhi comedies, because accidents or molestation is way easier to use for low kind of humour these shows are based on. InkSpider said: How is it that medium has become so divorced from how sex works in the real world that unwilling or accidental sexuality has become the norm? Real world has huge problem with unwilling sexuality too, so I don't see how is the medium so divorced from reality. It's just part of bigger problem When it comes to recommendations for series I won't be much help, since I don't watch lots of ecchi, but from what i remember kuzu no honkai had scenes with consenting people and it's really fine anime Precisely this. Throughout my experience interacting with people on this site, "fiction =/= reality" has been the go-to justification for even some of the most blatant uses of ecchi and problematic tropes in general. I find this to be especially a problem with regards to the sexualization of lolis. I also definitely agree with you here that it's part of a bigger problem in society in general. After all, fiction reflects reality in many ways. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
Nightmare-chan said: InkSpider said: All of this got me thinking: why is it that the idea of consent apparently so alien to the anime commmunity? Has anime really flooded us with so many accidental pervert scenes, comedic molestations and pointlessly ogling camera work that the idea of a character who is being portrayed sexually being willing in revealing her sexuality is now abnormal? Like, seriously, wtf? Well, I don't think the concept of consent is actually alien to anime community. I guess they often understand the problem in actual life, they just don't care, because "It's fiction, so anything goes" and they don't notice that watching stuff like this actually make impact on they behaviour in real life. And it's so popular in echhi comedies, because accidents or molestation is way easier to use for low kind of humour these shows are based on. InkSpider said: How is it that medium has become so divorced from how sex works in the real world that unwilling or accidental sexuality has become the norm? Real world has huge problem with unwilling sexuality too, so I don't see how is the medium so divorced from reality. It's just part of bigger problem When it comes to recommendations for series I won't be much help, since I don't watch lots of ecchi, but from what i remember kuzu no honkai had scenes with consenting people and it's really fine anime I think you've definitely made some good points here. I too have hit the 'it's just a show' argument more than once, and like you, I have seen the idea that media/art affects the way we think and behave treated dismissed as ridiculous. I think that recognizing when media expressed harmful ideas and calling problematic shows on their shit can largely rob them of their power to change behavior, but even the act of criticizing shows for problematic portrayals of sexual molestation and other heavy topics seems to invariably lead at least a significant portion of anime fans to bust out the, 'it's just a show' defense, as if the very act of acknowledging the show's problematic portrayals was a denial of the differences between reality and fiction, and a waste of time besides. I have to respectfully challenge your assertion that the real world's problems with unwilling sexuality are not divorced. There are certainly people in the real world who have terrible ideas about consent, but from what I've seen, the majority of people in the real world treat consent seriously, and while there are plenty of people in the anime community (like us, for example) who express disgust towards non-con fanservice, I've found troubling attitudes towards rape far more common in the anime community, both online and in real life. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
ecchiharemgeek said: The problem with people saying “media/art affects the way we think and act/ behave @InkSpider There no evidence to back up the claim Uh, yeah there is. After the release of Jaws, there was an increase in shark-hunting: http://screenprism.com/insights/article/did-jaws-demonize-sharks The radio broadcast of 'War of the Worlds' saw mass panic: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/welles-scares-nation In a more positive example, the popularity of the Hunger Games was accompanied by a national increase in archery, particularly among girls and young women: https://www.npr.org/2013/11/27/247379498/more-girls-target-archery-inspired-by-the-hunger-games Super Eyepatch Wolf, a popular ani-tuber, has said that watching Dragon Ball Z was one of the chief things that gave him an interest in exercise and martial arts (about a minute end): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuvSwb5KM6Q Oh, and here's an article from a man who watched One Piece as a successful means of battling his depression: http://www.cracked.com/blog/a-tribute-to-frivolous-things-that-get-us-through-life/ And here's the Holocaust Memorial Museum's Propaganda Exhibit, if you need a heavier example of media that influenced human behavior for the worse: https://www.ushmm.org/propaganda/ How about an economic example for variety? Here's an online store that sells anime merchandise. https://www.amiami.com/eng/ The store wouldn't be in business if people didn't buy there stuff, obviously. Do you really think people would have an interest in buying merchandise featuring anime characters if the shows they watched didn't influence how they thought about those characters, which in turn manifests in the behavior of buying the merch? Hell, anime even affects how other anime-makers think about making anime and how they make it. Fist of the North Star affected how Dragon Ball Z and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure was made, Dragon Ball Z affected how Hunter x Hunter and Naruto were made, Neon Genesis Evangelion (probably) affected how Attack on Titan was Made... I could go on for days, but the point here is that the fact that art is even influenced by art proves that art affects how people think and behave, including other artists. Now, I will happily recognize that when the audience recognizes false messages in a media and art and expresses why they are false, those messages are unlikely to affect their thoughts and behaviors in the same way as someone who embraces the false messages and true or someone who accepts what is presented without even considering if its true or false, but the idea that media and art has no impact on thoughts and behaviors is observably false. There is evidence all over the place if you are actually willing to look for/at it. The question worth pursuing, to me, is not whether art affects how people think and act, but how it affects them. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
ecchiharemgeek said: @inkspider there’s still no “Rape Culture” In the comics, video games, cinema, books or live-action television or real live saying that is misleading No, that exists too. Nice goalpost shift, though. While mainstream society generally recognizes that rape is ethically wrong, there are still certainly significant factions that will deny that rape is rape when the victim is cognitively impaired from the use of drugs or alcohol or when the victims comply only because of threats or coercion. Rape and sexual harassment in the military happens all the time and generally goes unreported either because of stigma against being raped (particularly strong for men) or because of fear of repercussion from a higher-ranking officer. People are also inclined to sweep rape under the rug when the rapist is a celebrity (look at how long it took Bill Cosby to be outed), though the growing strength of the Me Too movement shows how this prevalence is beginning to be challenged. So aside from the prevalence of rape hentai and yaoi (which is a marginal enough niche of anime that I won't pretend it represents anime as a whole), there is definitely plenty of mainstream anime that treats rape/sexual harassment as trivial. Master Roshi in Dragon Ball is probably the most famous example, but there's also the more recent and baffling insertion of a gratuitous sexual assault scene in Citrus. The infamous sexual assault scene(s) in Sword Art Online could be partially defended, since it's an act committed by the villain and therefore is theoretically framed as a loathsome act, but as critics have pointed out, it's hard to buy that the anime is really playing sexual assault for drama when the camera is ogling the girls in the midst of them getting assaulted. So yeah. There are significant mainstream anime that normalize/trivialize rape or play it for fetishism. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
ecchiharemgeek said: InkSpider said: No, that exists too. Nice goalpost shift, though. While mainstream society generally recognizes that rape is ethically wrong, there are still certainly significant factions that will deny that rape is rape when the victim is cognitively impaired from the use of drugs or alcohol or when the victims comply only because of threats or coercion. Rape and sexual harassment in the military happens all the time and generally goes unreported either because of stigma against being raped (particularly strong for men) or because of fear of repercussion from a higher-ranking officer. People are also inclined to sweep rape under the rug when the rapist is a celebrity (look at how long it took Bill Cosby to be outed), though the growing strength of the Me Too movement shows how this prevalence is beginning to be challenged. So aside from the prevalence of rape hentai and yaoi (which is a marginal enough niche of anime that I won't pretend it represents anime as a whole), there is definitely plenty of mainstream anime that treats rape/sexual harassment as trivial. Master Roshi in Dragon Ball is probably the most famous example, but there's also the more recent and baffling insertion of a gratuitous sexual assault scene in Citrus. The infamous sexual assault scene(s) in Sword Art Online could be partially defended, since it's an act committed by the villain and therefore is theoretically framed as a loathsome act, but as critics have pointed out, it's hard to buy that the anime is really playing sexual assault for drama when the camera is ogling the girls in the midst of them getting assaulted. So yeah. There are significant mainstream anime that normalize/trivialize rape or play it for fetishism. You do know the me-two movement is a man witch hunt movement Run by man hating/ugly feminsts You say blatantly untrue shit so often and so efficiently that I'm tempted to make a drinking game out of it. If you knew literally anything about Me Too, you'd know that persons of all genders and ages are a part of the movement. The fact that you misspelled both 'Me Too' and 'feminists' reflect a lot on how much you actually know about what those things actually are. The idea of a manwich hunting movement is inherently absurd. Manwiches are relatively easy to prepare, and the ingredients to make them are easily obtained at nearly all American grocery stores. There's no reason to hunt for manwiches, regardless of your political association. |
InkSpiderNov 10, 2018 11:32 PM
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
ecchiharemgeek said: @inkspider “you'd know that persons of all genders and ages are a part of the movement” Everyone you mean ugly lesbian feminsts/CPU and cucks “If you knew literally anything about Me Too, you'd know that persons of all genders and ages are a part of the movement” And yet it’s only targets men So any man who speaks out about getting sexually assaulted is a cuck? You don't know very much about sexual assault, do you? Maybe you should stop talking about it. Me Too is not and has never been about 'targeting' anyone. It is about giving people a platform to speak about their experience with sexual assault. If that means that people who have committed sexual assault or sexual harassment have to face consequences for it... well, good. They need to. If more men than women are exposed, it's because most rapists are men. Deal with it. If you don't believe me, here's a nationally conducted survey from 2010 revealing that over 90% of rapists are men (page 24, if you actually bother looking at this): https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf This certainly doesn't mean the most men are rapists (only the most radical of feminist would claim that nonsense) nor does it mean that female rapists don't exist (they do, and Me Too has never denied that). Why are most rapists men? I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd say it has to something to do with men having more power in our culture than women. You'll deny that too, I'm sure, for the sake of preserving a self-victimizing fantasy in which all of your failings can be blamed on a societal prejudice against men and not on your own ignorance and refusal to change. Also the spacing in your post looks stupid, so I corrected it for you. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: This https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-12-03/a-wall-street-rule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost Rather lazy to share a link without giving any commentary of your own, you know. Here's an idea: if men are so concerned about getting charged for sexual harassment, maybe they should stop sexually harassing women. I do agree with this last bit though: 'Men have to step up, she said, and “not let fear be a barrier.”' |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: Here's an idea: if men are so concerned about getting charged for sexual harassment, maybe they should stop sexually harassing women. men are concerned about women falsely accusing them of sexual harassment and destroying their lives even when there’s no evidence The metoo movement being a perfect example of this The idea that there is an epidemic of women falsely accusing men of sexual harassment is nothing but a paranoid and self-victimizing fantasy spun by willfully ignorant and cowardly men who refuse to admit that sexual harassment is a problem. Not that anything you've said has anything to do with the topic at hand anyways. Also, got to love that you shared that article without reading it to the end. You know. To the point where it places responsibility on the attitudes of men and contradicts the point you were attempting to make. |
InkSpiderMar 16, 2019 7:11 PM
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: The idea that there is an epidemic of women falsely accusing men of sexual harassment is nothing but a paranoid and self-victimizing fantasy spun by willfully ignorant and cowardly men who refuse to admit that sexual harassment is a problem. says that false rape allegation in the metwo movement doesn’t happen ignorance is bliss I guess Clearly ignorance is bliss, since you're not willing to acknowledge that sexual harassment is a bigger problem. I never said that false rape allegations don't happen, but I suppose that was a point too nuanced for your lizard-brain to grasp. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: but I suppose that was a point too nuanced for your lizard-brain to grasp. It’s sad you lower yourself to childish name calling But I guess that’s what happens when you have no argument No, sad is cutting out 90% of everything I say and then pretending you're winning the argument. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: No, sad is cutting out 90% of everything I say and then pretending you're winning the argument. Even though you have no argument other then childish insults Uh-huh. Keep those hands over your eyes, little boy. I'm sure if you refuse to look at my arguments long enough, they'll go away. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: Uh-huh. Keep those hands over your eyes, little boy. I'm sure if you refuse to look at my arguments long enough, they'll go away. Gonna love the irony in that statement You don't actually know what irony is, do you? That's okay. I'm sure using it will make you sound smart. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: You don't actually know what irony is, do you? That's okay. I'm sure using it will make you sound smart. Is childish insults all you can say No, but it's all that's worth saying to you. You're clearly too deep into the anti-femme cesspool to acknowledge anything else. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Nerdanimefan1992 said: InkSpider said: No, but it's all that's worth saying to you. You're clearly too deep into the anti-femme cesspool to acknowledge anything else. Good to know you acknowledged you have no argument well it was nice talk to you I guess Lol. Simply because you were too stubborn and dense to acknowledge my arguments doesn't mean they don't exist. It's simply that when dealing with people like you, there is a limit to the value of pursuing actual arguments. You've refused to listen to any actual arguments, so you're not worth arguing with anymore. You're merely an object of ridicule. UPDATE: Wasn't going to do this, but since you deleted this comment from your profile because it forced you to witness a truth you didn't agree with, here's a link to an article, based in numerous studies, which shows that only 5% of rape accusations are false. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rape-allegations-fabricated/ So much for the lack of arguments, hmm? |
InkSpiderMar 20, 2019 4:20 PM
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
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