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Oct 21, 2017 12:45 PM

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This thread is dumb as heck and you shouldn't watch this any longer. Actually, it would be for the best if you would stop watching anime all together, since you seem to hate everything you watch. Elias isn't human and doesn't understand people very well, things become more apparent about Elias as the series goes on, can't get into details since it's spoilery. Please drop this.
:3
Oct 21, 2017 12:45 PM

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LauraBirdie said:
Brean2010 said:


You have been bought, you can receive order therefore your are a type of slave no matter the reason but this thing has nothing to do with the quality of the show.


It was a slave auction but I don't remember Elias ever phrasing it that way, the words he used are apprentice, puppy, future bride.

His reason for "obtaining" Chise will become clear in a couple of episodes



Perhaps, you have surely much information than me, I want to trust you. Howewer I never said that Elias called Chise like this but the problem is how he proceed with Chise.
Oct 21, 2017 12:51 PM

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Kittens-kun said:
Brean2010 said:


If you have read my last response to Dang0z, it's absolutely not clear, depending of the translation. After if you understand the original text, I can eventually trust you. And for now, when a people say you can do what you want but this person follow you in any place, it's not really the thing called "Freedom" but it's my point of view.

And I know that romance is not the main topic of this show, I have read lot of review of the manga (and I generaly don't care about romance) but it's a part of the backgound.


No, it is clear. He literally says it. You're ignoring the facts for the sake of your nonsense argument.


And that, it's clear? at the end of the first epsiode -> {I just rewatched with french (my language) offcial subs and after with english offcial subs and in french he say "I will make you my bride" and in english he said "I hope to make you my bride"}
Oct 21, 2017 1:11 PM
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Given Elias's non-human nature, I question just what he even means by "Make her his bride." The third episode strongly suggests that this is more of a passing of the torch than a romantic union.

That said, it seems that the auction at least initially served more as a means to bring this depressed, at-the-end-of-her-rope character with a rough childhood into the company of someone who would understand her struggles and have a reason to want to see her successful. If Chise was actually serving the role of a maid or laborer or any other slave-like position, I could see the objections having some merit, but he has made it clear that first and foremost, she will be his apprentice. Sure, there might be a little bit of the "I'll rescue this girl from her situation," but they seem to be playing it pretty straight. Chise doesn't trust Elias yet. The world didn't magically get better because she trusted this man. It only became more confusing.

That said, the show does have potential to completely drop the ball and just become a boring "Love solves everything" type of show.
Oct 21, 2017 1:28 PM

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Just to conclude. I asked a question to a friend that never seen the show.

"Someone bought you, he propose you to become its apprentice and after few hours he said you he would like you become its bride in the future. Strange or not?"

My friend answer me:
"That is strange but can be acceptable depending of the situation."

I let everybody (me included) meditate on this answer.
Oct 21, 2017 1:36 PM

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Brean2010 said:
Kittens-kun said:


No, it is clear. He literally says it. You're ignoring the facts for the sake of your nonsense argument.


And that, it's clear? at the end of the first epsiode -> {I just rewatched with french (my language) offcial subs and after with english offcial subs and in french he say "I will make you my bride" and in english he said "I hope to make you my bride"}


No, him giving her the choice to do whatever the fuck she wants is what was clear.

Oct 21, 2017 1:45 PM

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Kittens-kun said:
Brean2010 said:


And that, it's clear? at the end of the first epsiode -> {I just rewatched with french (my language) offcial subs and after with english offcial subs and in french he say "I will make you my bride" and in english he said "I hope to make you my bride"}


No, him giving her the choice to do whatever the fuck she wants is what was clear.


In my country we have a thing called "abuse of a vulnerable person".
Ellias lets Chise do whatever she want but in fact Chise is a vunerable person and Ellias has much more psychologic power and therefore, for now, Chise hasn't really choice except following Ellas.
It could be interesting to ask to a jurist what he thought about this.
Oct 21, 2017 1:45 PM
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Responding to ataraxial:

I don't really see it that way at all. I think Chise selling herself is meant to show merely how depressed/despondent she is. She's abandoned all hope in herself. Selling herself is almost the psychological analogy for suicide.

I didn't see it as glamorizing or promoting misogyny. I think it just represents her character is totally lost and alone -- she believes she is worthless, and has no drive to live, so she sells her own self away to anyone who finds worth in her.

I don't believe it's meant to be promoting slavery or some weird kink, necessarily.

I think you can have bad things happen in a story, without being a proponent of bad things. Then again, I suffered from depression too as a kid, and I can kind of empathize with the feeling of wanting to be "saved." It's easier for me to see it on an empathetic level rather than a sexual one.
Oct 21, 2017 1:49 PM

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Username23489023 said:
People don’t need to be told slavery and misogyny is bad, they already know it. I think you’re stuck in a bubble. A leftist bubble where you can only see women as being a victim, or even worse, you have a martyr complex.


^ * 10.

Yea, there's a three episode rule for a reason, and some shows take even longer than that to truly get where their going. There is a reason I have a rule to never drop a series.
That aside, to presume the entire tone of a show based on it's first episode is extremely naive. There are many, many examples of show's drastically changing after the first few episodes or in the last few episodes.

Elias isn't even human, and is hundreds of years old. Of course Chise is going to come off as a 'pet' or lesser to him. Our forms of morals and common sense don't apply to a centuries old magical monster. It's like expecting a human to see an ant as anything more than an object. Even if it could talk to us, it's still an ant.

You sound a lot more like a 3rd wave feminist than a humanist. It seriously seems like you're just looking for something to crusade against, if what you got from this show is misogyny and human rights. Expecting magical creatures that are hundreds of years old and many times more powerful than us to treat them as equals is laughable.

If this was something like 50 shades of gray or a typical shoujo, I'd totally agree with you, but in this kind of setting, that outlook is laughable.
Oct 21, 2017 2:28 PM

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You got really huge issues OP... I suggest you check them somewhere.
Oct 21, 2017 2:38 PM

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ImAWeebUwU said:
You got really huge issues OP... I suggest you check them somewhere.


You seem to be a very open minded and a very constructive guys, it's good, continue like that.
I think that you have succeed to give your idea but I think also that it lack a bit of content, can you give complement to your opinion? I'm very interested you known, I wait a lot from you.
Oct 21, 2017 2:45 PM

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AdrianRubinsky said:
It seems my sarcastic comment was deleted, so I will give my full thoughts.

The whole misogyny and human rights concerns in a fiction work because "It is for the sake of the children" is nothing but a fallacy.

What is a fallacy? You purposely blur real life topics with fantasy works and try to get the higher ground by presenting yourself as the guardian of children or *insert your desired group you wish to protect*.

Which is an insult for the target you wish to protect, as your fallacy suggest that children can't discern what is real and what it isn't (remember the whole debate about violent video-games) and, therefore, works that explore some topics should be criticised and, if possible, censored.

This isn't an anme for small children, look at the rating classification of this show. I also think children see much worse watching Game of Thrones and I doubt someone is forbidden them to see.

For parents who are concerned (or just control freaks), there is a Rating system, which indicated Mahoutsukai no Yome as safe for teenagers over 13 years old. If a 13-year old can't discern this is just a fantasy work, you can say the child is retarded.

I'm not even going to enter how this kind of thinking damages society in the long run. Critical thinking and individualism will soon be replaced by mob thinking dictating what you can or can't do.

I can see how it might seem that way, but I'm not here to protect the children LOL. It doesn't take a PhD to see that Mahoutsukai isn't going to have significant impact on real-world behavior except for maybe inspiring some discussion. And that's why I'm here, to talk about anime and in this case specifically, offer some criticism for a work that seems to have handled an issue poorly.

Maybe give other people a little more credit if you're going to champion critical thinking and individualism?
Oct 21, 2017 2:54 PM

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Watayarata said:
ataraxial said:
After watching the first episode, I'm about to drop the series. But I thought I'd see if other people on MAL agreed with the impression I got and also give a chance for those who have read the source material to address my concerns.

Basically, I can't stand the relationship between Elias and Chise. I hate how she's treated as a pet and a thing. I hate how she accepts it and feels grateful. It makes sense given the (brief) backstory that we're given, but it's not the logic that bothers me. It's the fact that the author chose to make the story and their relationship like this.

It's a submissive girl's fantasy of being saved and dominated by a mysterious, powerful man, and giving up all agency to that end. As a humanist, I find this disgusting. Now, I don't blame anyone for enjoying this because it's their kink or whatever. But the story should probably give some sort of a hint that slavery and misogyny are bad.

Since I've only seen the first episode, I'm aware that my impression is incomplete. Feel free to show that things get better with manga spoilers (just make sure to spoiler them). I actually found the setting quite interesting, and honestly I'd much rather this turn out to be a thoughtful, enjoyable series and not a self-insert fantasy of internalized sexism.

Thank you.


After I've watched the second episode I decided to drop.
I can't stand Elias and I think he was just wishing a slave since he decided about Chise's future. He does not allow Chise make her own choice and the fact that Elias said that she is his bride it's disgusting to me, it seems he is a pedophile especially when he said about their honeymoon, that's so disgusting and it sounds like she were his sexual slavery or he wants that Chise will be his sexual slavery.


Pedophilia is the sole sexual attraction to children under the age of 13. So even without Elias' sexual attraction to Chise being debatable, there is no pedophilia.
You're a louse, Roger Smith. - R. Dorothy Wayneright
This is my fight! No Senpai, this is our fight! - Kojou Akatsuki & Yukina Himeragi
Oct 21, 2017 2:55 PM

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ataraxial said:
AdrianRubinsky said:
It seems my sarcastic comment was deleted, so I will give my full thoughts.

The whole misogyny and human rights concerns in a fiction work because "It is for the sake of the children" is nothing but a fallacy.

What is a fallacy? You purposely blur real life topics with fantasy works and try to get the higher ground by presenting yourself as the guardian of children or *insert your desired group you wish to protect*.

Which is an insult for the target you wish to protect, as your fallacy suggest that children can't discern what is real and what it isn't (remember the whole debate about violent video-games) and, therefore, works that explore some topics should be criticised and, if possible, censored.

This isn't an anme for small children, look at the rating classification of this show. I also think children see much worse watching Game of Thrones and I doubt someone is forbidden them to see.

For parents who are concerned (or just control freaks), there is a Rating system, which indicated Mahoutsukai no Yome as safe for teenagers over 13 years old. If a 13-year old can't discern this is just a fantasy work, you can say the child is retarded.

I'm not even going to enter how this kind of thinking damages society in the long run. Critical thinking and individualism will soon be replaced by mob thinking dictating what you can or can't do.

I can see how it might seem that way, but I'm not here to protect the children LOL. It doesn't take a PhD to see that Mahoutsukai isn't going to have significant impact on real-world behavior except for maybe inspiring some discussion. And that's why I'm here, to talk about anime and in this case specifically, offer some criticism for a work that seems to have handled an issue poorly.

Maybe give other people a little more credit if you're going to champion critical thinking and individualism?


Your Discussion sounds like those news people that blame video games for shootings or a SJW.

Human rights, its a fictional fantasy story, because I really fucking hate when it people smash reality with fiction or something THAT'S NOT REAL.

Also have ever seen Berserk, because there's things FAR WORSE then Slavery.
HollowIchigo58Oct 21, 2017 3:14 PM
Oct 21, 2017 2:56 PM
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ImAWeebUwU said:
You got really huge issues OP... I suggest you check them somewhere.


Only thing these people want checked is others privilege.
Oct 21, 2017 3:02 PM

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ataraxial said:
AdrianRubinsky said:
It seems my sarcastic comment was deleted, so I will give my full thoughts.

The whole misogyny and human rights concerns in a fiction work because "It is for the sake of the children" is nothing but a fallacy.

What is a fallacy? You purposely blur real life topics with fantasy works and try to get the higher ground by presenting yourself as the guardian of children or *insert your desired group you wish to protect*.

Which is an insult for the target you wish to protect, as your fallacy suggest that children can't discern what is real and what it isn't (remember the whole debate about violent video-games) and, therefore, works that explore some topics should be criticised and, if possible, censored.

This isn't an anme for small children, look at the rating classification of this show. I also think children see much worse watching Game of Thrones and I doubt someone is forbidden them to see.

For parents who are concerned (or just control freaks), there is a Rating system, which indicated Mahoutsukai no Yome as safe for teenagers over 13 years old. If a 13-year old can't discern this is just a fantasy work, you can say the child is retarded.

I'm not even going to enter how this kind of thinking damages society in the long run. Critical thinking and individualism will soon be replaced by mob thinking dictating what you can or can't do.

I can see how it might seem that way, but I'm not here to protect the children LOL. It doesn't take a PhD to see that Mahoutsukai isn't going to have significant impact on real-world behavior except for maybe inspiring some discussion. And that's why I'm here, to talk about anime and in this case specifically, offer some criticism for a work that seems to have handled an issue poorly.

Maybe give other people a little more credit if you're going to champion critical thinking and individualism?


I can conclude that isn't the good place to have serious discussion. I try but when you expose fact, guys will return you a non sense one liner with a lack of explenation or based to speculation and not fact or they just respond you is a fiction not the reality (thanks dude I know but fiction are mades by real persons with real ideas)

Me and you have aproximatively the same opinion about the background of the show and I think we are right but when a show is hyped, it's too much hard to make evolued criticism because the average replier has not enough distance to talk seroiously.
Oct 21, 2017 3:05 PM

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It's fiction OP.
Leave reality out of it, or better yet take it to Tumblr instead.
Came here to see discussion on episode thread see this snowflake post.. jesus christ.
Lie until what you want to be true becomes truth. Lie until you can't remember what's a lie and what isn't.  Lie until you aren't lying anymore!
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Oct 21, 2017 3:12 PM

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JohnTron said:
It's fiction OP.
Leave reality out of it, or better yet take it to Tumblr instead.
Came here to see discussion on episode thread see this snowflake post.. jesus christ.


I agree with you, this Discussion sounds like those news people that blame video games for shootings or a SJW.

Human rights, its a fictional fantasy story, because I really fucking hate when it people smash reality with fiction or something THAT'S NOT REAL, also this about a story of her getting through her depression and sad past, also become a Mage with the help of Elias because he SAVED her from a dark fate and he's really kind to her and treats her like family.

Also there's Berserk, because there's things in there FAR WORSE then Slavery.
HollowIchigo58Oct 21, 2017 3:18 PM
Oct 21, 2017 3:19 PM

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Brean2010 said:
ataraxial said:

I can see how it might seem that way, but I'm not here to protect the children LOL. It doesn't take a PhD to see that Mahoutsukai isn't going to have significant impact on real-world behavior except for maybe inspiring some discussion. And that's why I'm here, to talk about anime and in this case specifically, offer some criticism for a work that seems to have handled an issue poorly.

Maybe give other people a little more credit if you're going to champion critical thinking and individualism?


I can conclude that isn't the good place to have serious discussion. I try but when you expose fact, guys will return you a non sense one liner with a lack of explenation or based to speculation and not fact or they just respond you is a fiction not the reality (thanks dude I know but fiction are mades by real persons with real ideas)

Me and you have aproximatively the same opinion about the background of the show and I think we are right but when a show is hyped, it's too much hard to make evolued criticism because the average replier has not enough distance to talk seroiously.


"expose fact" LOL. It's actually astounding how delusional you are. No you aren't right. You're both wrong on every single conceivable level. Plus, your "criticism" would be taken more seriously if it was actually criticism. I love how you label all of us as fanboys, even though we're in the right here.

Oct 21, 2017 4:38 PM

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Kittens-kun said:
Brean2010 said:


I can conclude that isn't the good place to have serious discussion. I try but when you expose fact, guys will return you a non sense one liner with a lack of explenation or based to speculation and not fact or they just respond you is a fiction not the reality (thanks dude I know but fiction are mades by real persons with real ideas)

Me and you have aproximatively the same opinion about the background of the show and I think we are right but when a show is hyped, it's too much hard to make evolued criticism because the average replier has not enough distance to talk seroiously.


"expose fact" LOL. It's actually astounding how delusional you are. No you aren't right. You're both wrong on every single conceivable level. Plus, your "criticism" would be taken more seriously if it was actually criticism. I love how you label all of us as fanboys, even though we're in the right here.


First of all, hyped is not equal to fanboy. If you don't know true meaning of thing how can we have discussion. And I can say that majority of people are hyped because of the violence of their replies.
I already was been hyped by a thing but i'm not turned into a fanboy.

After this clarification I can continue.

When I have posted my last message, I knew I was going to receive lot of reaction toward me because I knew that it was a little nasty but not more than some people replies. How many people openly insulted the OP?

And it's a true critic of the background, not of the main plot but you don't think to understand.

In fact, me and you never share any idea and that is why I think it's useless to answer each others. It will be a never end debate.
Oct 21, 2017 5:10 PM
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I suggest you should keep on watching to see if your first impression still prevails after its first arc.

As for why it started in slavery, it's more of a symbolic form to sum up Chise's state of mind. You aren't given any info on how Chise got into slavery as well as where Elias decided to buy her so I can see how you came to that conclusion. Still though, it's surprising that she hadn't thought of suicide as realistically that would be the most rational choice.

This show revolves around Chise's lack of will and how she grows to have something to live for because of Elias and others coming into her life.
Oct 21, 2017 6:21 PM

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I think its fine. The story is good. Its about human life, sadness, depression, and how to enjoy life. Its unfortunate that slavery and stuff like that happen, but there is nothing you and I can do about that.
sam9502Oct 21, 2017 6:25 PM
It's fine. Everyone makes mistakes. You just need to make an effort not to make the same mistake again.
Oct 21, 2017 7:34 PM

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ataraxial said:
Basically, I can't stand the relationship between Elias and Chise. I hate how she's treated as a pet and a thing. I hate how she accepts it and feels grateful. It makes sense given the (brief) backstory that we're given, but it's not the logic that bothers me. It's the fact that the author chose to make the story and their relationship like this.


Can you specify which part that show Elias treat Chise like a pet/thing? Because I really don't see their relationship like that. In fact, their relationship are mutual. Elias who rarely interact with human
and Chise who never felt like she's needed in this world.
FerdinandSuryaOct 21, 2017 7:48 PM
"Isn't Victini the cutest Pokemon of all time?"
Oct 21, 2017 8:19 PM
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Did you seriously delete my fucking comment?
Oct 21, 2017 8:20 PM
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Also, this has no slavery. Chise is not a slave. She's an apprentice.
Oct 21, 2017 8:33 PM
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... Welp, I suppose it was inevitable to come across one of these threads sooner or later.

People seem to forget that Elias isn't human and keep applying human sensibilities to him. This is a story about how he and Chise learn how to be human "together" and that's that.

If you're going to judge it without bothering to see more, I suppose that's your choice. Just that it's a very limited perspective on an otherwise lovely story about self-discovery and recovering from a painful life.
Oct 22, 2017 1:51 AM
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Go back to Tumblr.
Oct 22, 2017 3:36 AM

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Fuck that must be the single most retarded thread this weak.

PS: Cant we just ban everyone who uses the word "misogyny" from the internet?

Maybe you should have watched the OVA first, then you would not write such trash.
"This emotion is mine alone.
It is for Madoka alone." - Homura
or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica.
Oct 22, 2017 11:19 AM

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LOL, I can't believe to see this type of thread in this anime.

Does OP really get triggered that easily?

Elias treated Chise in the most kind and gentle way possible.
What do you expect more?

Come on OP! There are a lot of anime out there worth getting triggered than this anime.
Oct 22, 2017 11:47 AM

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863
Not all shows are about morality and you having to have your ideals shaped by said shows. Personally, I too find this relationship quite creepy and an unfair power imbalance on many levels. However, I enjoy the show not because I like the mage, but because I enjoy everything else and I find it interesting.

If you want to watch PC shows filled with SJW tendencies there are many forms of entertainment you can watch to get your fill, anime is one of the only things left not forced with it. I do suggest you just drop the show, if it bothers you to such a degree. Perhaps go watch Supergirl?
Jaywalker.
Oct 22, 2017 12:34 PM

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Epicenter said:
Not all shows are about morality and you having to have your ideals shaped by said shows. Personally, I too find this relationship quite creepy and an unfair power imbalance on many levels. However, I enjoy the show not because I like the mage, but because I enjoy everything else and I find it interesting.

If you want to watch PC shows filled with SJW tendencies there are many forms of entertainment you can watch to get your fill, anime is one of the only things left not forced with it. I do suggest you just drop the show, if it bothers you to such a degree. Perhaps go watch Supergirl?


There's literally nothing creepy about it. And "unfair power imbalance"? Well, he's obviously going to be better than her at magic. How is this even a criticism?

Oct 22, 2017 1:05 PM

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are-kusu said:
... Welp, I suppose it was inevitable to come across one of these threads sooner or later.

People seem to forget that Elias isn't human and keep applying human sensibilities to him. This is a story about how he and Chise learn how to be human "together" and that's that.

If you're going to judge it without bothering to see more, I suppose that's your choice. Just that it's a very limited perspective on an otherwise lovely story about self-discovery and recovering from a painful life.

sorry but the hes not human excuse only goes so far Elias is fine because hes trying to understand.

meanwhile Kyubey


@Epicenter
whats wrong with DC tv series :( i quite enjoy it. and i also like anime and i love this manga. waiting for the anime to finish before watching I've had to many anime from my favorite manga let me down like dream eater marry, yozakura quartets first anime (the new reboot they made recent;y is fine)
the first full metal alchemist, deadman wonderland, Dimension W, etc
GrimAtramentOct 22, 2017 1:09 PM
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice
“Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume
“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus

Oct 22, 2017 1:06 PM
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I still don't understand how did you get the impression of misogyny in this show. I didn't even see a clashing between sexes or something regarding the superiority of men or the inferiority of women in general. I'm probably blindfolded, I don't know.

Based on what I watched, I don't see anything but a slave being negotiated because she has a special power. I wouldn't be bothered if she was used as a weapon later on the show because she was a slave and was bought. However, to me, it looks like Elias doesn't want to use her as a weapon, he may have a deeper interest related to her Sleigh Beggy thing.

I'm sorry, OP, but please don't live in a bubble, it's not cool. If you want to, you should try some Netflix shows, there are plenty that does not promote misogyny.
Oct 22, 2017 1:11 PM

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jhanpr said:
I still don't understand how did you get the impression of misogyny in this show. I didn't even see a clashing between sexes or something regarding the superiority of men or the inferiority of women in general. I'm probably blindfolded, I don't know.

Based on what I watched, I don't see anything but a slave being negotiated because she has a special power. I wouldn't be bothered if she was used as a weapon later on the show because she was a slave and was bought. However, to me, it looks like Elias doesn't want to use her as a weapon, he may have a deeper interest related to her Sleigh Beggy thing.

I'm sorry, OP, but please don't live in a bubble, it's not cool. If you want to, you should try some Netflix shows, there are plenty that does not promote misogyny.


dude slavery is my main problem with this series as much as i like the manga. slavery is NEVER a good action.
Elias had no idea what he was doing back then (which comes back to bite him later in the manga,)
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice
“Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume
“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus

Oct 22, 2017 1:34 PM
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hazarddex said:
jhanpr said:
I still don't understand how did you get the impression of misogyny in this show. I didn't even see a clashing between sexes or something regarding the superiority of men or the inferiority of women in general. I'm probably blindfolded, I don't know.

Based on what I watched, I don't see anything but a slave being negotiated because she has a special power. I wouldn't be bothered if she was used as a weapon later on the show because she was a slave and was bought. However, to me, it looks like Elias doesn't want to use her as a weapon, he may have a deeper interest related to her Sleigh Beggy thing.

I'm sorry, OP, but please don't live in a bubble, it's not cool. If you want to, you should try some Netflix shows, there are plenty that does not promote misogyny.


dude slavery is my main problem with this series as much as i like the manga. slavery is NEVER a good action.
Elias had no idea what he was doing back then (which comes back to bite him later in the manga,)


I agree with you, slavery is never a good action that's why we don't see it very often in our reality (I didn't say the opposite at any point). But still, I don't understand about the misogyny thing.

Anyway, I think that shows (animes, series, movies or whatever) in general replicates many subjects and they need to do so to create a story and to present something for the viewers. As for Mahoutsukai, one of the subjects of the story is slavery just like any other show, I don't see this as a problem. Afterall, this is a story, isn't?

I don't think discussing if slavery is good or not is useful because everyone knows that it is not but just because Mahoutsukai presents slavery doesn't mean that the show has problems or is bad. It's the context and the reality of the story.
Oct 22, 2017 1:45 PM

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hazarddex said:
are-kusu said:
... Welp, I suppose it was inevitable to come across one of these threads sooner or later.

People seem to forget that Elias isn't human and keep applying human sensibilities to him. This is a story about how he and Chise learn how to be human "together" and that's that.

If you're going to judge it without bothering to see more, I suppose that's your choice. Just that it's a very limited perspective on an otherwise lovely story about self-discovery and recovering from a painful life.

sorry but the hes not human excuse only goes so far Elias is fine because hes trying to understand.

meanwhile Kyubey


@Epicenter
whats wrong with DC tv series :( i quite enjoy it. and i also like anime and i love this manga. waiting for the anime to finish before watching I've had to many anime from my favorite manga let me down like dream eater marry, yozakura quartets first anime (the new reboot they made recent;y is fine)
the first full metal alchemist, deadman wonderland, Dimension W, etc


I didn't say it was bad, I use to watch Supergirl and all those cw shows until like a year or two ago, I enjoyed them at the time. I'm just saying, if he wants social justice and all that, Supergirl would be a good show for him instead of crying about anime.
Jaywalker.
Oct 22, 2017 1:47 PM

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Kittens-kun said:
Epicenter said:
Not all shows are about morality and you having to have your ideals shaped by said shows. Personally, I too find this relationship quite creepy and an unfair power imbalance on many levels. However, I enjoy the show not because I like the mage, but because I enjoy everything else and I find it interesting.

If you want to watch PC shows filled with SJW tendencies there are many forms of entertainment you can watch to get your fill, anime is one of the only things left not forced with it. I do suggest you just drop the show, if it bothers you to such a degree. Perhaps go watch Supergirl?


There's literally nothing creepy about it. And "unfair power imbalance"? Well, he's obviously going to be better than her at magic. How is this even a criticism?


IDK what to tell you, to me it seems rather obvious. Even the episode before this one, the girl they met was indicating how inappropriate it was.
Jaywalker.
Oct 22, 2017 2:08 PM

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Basically you said that what bothered you was the message sent by the girl who sells herself and consequently finds happiness, right? The idea of every single story having to send a message bothers me a little, because I don't read/watch things to have models for life, but to have a good time. But why don't we try to change the perspective of things a little bit? Instead of focusing on the message why don't you focus on what has driven Chise to sell herself? Or Elias to buy her?

Chise had real issues that led to her selling herself. She didn't sell herself because she liked it. She obviously led quite the life and was bearing an heavy amount of feelings for that to happen. Let's think of she becoming a slave, which is obviously a bad thing, as a consequence of her messed up state of mind. I think a realistic message would be about how someone can do unthinkable and self-destructing things when driven to such a state. In real life, these unthinkable things could be like commiting suicide, for example.

Now, let's not think of her happy ending as a consequency of her giving up on herself. The message sent here could be that even if you're having the most deppressing and outrageous thoughts you can still be saved, you can still be happy. And the message for the people who notice someone driven to a corner would be to try to help. It's not exactly the most comfortable thing to help someone we don't know or we don't care about, but wouldn't it be great if people would just help each ther when needed, regardless of their feelings for each other? After 3 episodes, it appears to me that Elias is trying to save Chise more than treating her as a slave, not exactly from her messed up mind, but from her powers as a Sleigh Begger that could end uo destroying her, and that was one of the reasons he bought her, maybe.

Sure, she giving up on herself is not exactly the greatest message to send someone, but it is a realistic one. Many people were driven to state of mind where they'd give up on themselves, thanks to their own circumstances.

Well, what captivates me most about the story, and stories in general, are the feelings behind the actions and how those feelings change and develop, according to the characters personality. So even if there isn't a positive message, I think it's worth it just to see Chise and Elias develop as characters and achieving happiness together. But that's just me. My advice would be to not let things like a good message about slavery missing ruin a potentially good and interesting show.
Oct 22, 2017 4:22 PM
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not rly related, but i think it's funny how you're talking about this show being misogynist when you have an image of kazuki from grisaia in your profile page, since the grisaia vns have some pretty nasty and unpleasant rape jokes in them that are played solely for comedy
Oct 22, 2017 7:11 PM

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Epicenter said:
Kittens-kun said:


There's literally nothing creepy about it. And "unfair power imbalance"? Well, he's obviously going to be better than her at magic. How is this even a criticism?


IDK what to tell you, to me it seems rather obvious. Even the episode before this one, the girl they met was indicating how inappropriate it was.


What is obvious exactly?

Oct 22, 2017 8:14 PM

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Kittens-kun said:
Epicenter said:


IDK what to tell you, to me it seems rather obvious. Even the episode before this one, the girl they met was indicating how inappropriate it was.


What is obvious exactly?


Did you read the next sentence?
Jaywalker.
Oct 22, 2017 8:16 PM
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Please don't assign real world judgements and contexts onto a fantasy setting. It's just incredibly quaint. You can't just label a work something by going down a checklist.

One must realize that the concept of human rights as we now know them is a fairly modern invention, and if the setting is not of the present, then it actually doesn't make that much sense to put modern values of this world into it.

And regardless the anime itself does not place it as a good thing mind you. You can see our protagonist here isn't too happy with this all, and if the things do unsettle you, then perhaps that was the point.

And I am of the opinion that plenty of anime is misogynistic, but that has more to do with the message it is sending, and 1-3 episodes in.... well, a bit quick to draw any real conclusion.

And what if MC were male? Would there still be a discussion of human rights?
Archon_WingOct 22, 2017 8:28 PM
Oct 22, 2017 8:23 PM

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I think the idea here, instead of affixing human rights to fictional characters, is to ascertain what is series trying to do, and how much leeway the concept of fantasy can give to such a setting.

Or basically, I hate watching people be assholes for no point. I hate Himouto! Umaru Chan, not because of any rights being violated, I am just annoyed, for example. Or Himegoto. No one rights have been violated, since no one exists, but I be damned if I were not displeased with seeing a man being put in situations where he would be sexually assaulted, all due to his female captors.

Or Classroom of the Elite, in terms of the framing the OP has criticized. Namely, I disliked how Sakura Airi's character is pushed to affection for the protagonist, who saved her from being raped, with such an incident only serving that purpose. I found this lazily cheap, and overly romanticized, especially since this isn't psychologically healthy, and I am tired of people thinking it is romantic.

No, no it is not. When I display moral outrage, I am not demanding legal action, goodness no. Have you seen the stuff I fap to? I am just irritated, essentially.
Oct 22, 2017 8:29 PM

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Epicenter said:
Kittens-kun said:


What is obvious exactly?


Did you read the next sentence?


She pointed out their dynamic after she asked if he had done anything to her. Chise described the bath scene as being worse then it actually was. So she hits him. Both this scene, and the bath scene, were comedy scenes. How does that support your "power imbalance" complaint? I mean, you never even said what you mean by that exactly.

Oct 23, 2017 8:40 AM
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I have a problem with this too, but it's purely from a writing standpoint. "MC has a problem, so she's going to give up and let someone else solve it for her."

I wish I could just give up and have someone want to buy me because I'm magically special, and better yet, he wants me to be his bride, and he's going to teach me how to do all kinds of cool magic. Not to mention he's a total gentleman who isn't going to be pervy about the arrangement. Where can I sign up?

It's a lazy foot to start off on, in my opinion.

For me, it's really Chise's woe-is-me backstory and lack of agency that is bogging this anime down. I've seen a lot of other characters pick themselves up from far worse and were the better for it. With some tweaks, she could actually be a compelling or relatable character, but as she is now, to me, she feels like a Mary Sue who we're supposed to root for just because of her tragic backstory.

I feel like this is a problem a lot of anime and other storytelling media have been struggling with, and it's a shame, because interesting characters can really be the difference between a good show and an amazing one.
Oct 23, 2017 9:01 AM
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fenderstratt said:
I have a problem with this too, but it's purely from a writing standpoint. "MC has a problem, so she's going to give up and let someone else solve it for her."

I wish I could just give up and have someone want to buy me because I'm magically special, and better yet, he wants me to be his bride, and he's going to teach me how to do all kinds of cool magic. Not to mention he's a total gentleman who isn't going to be pervy about the arrangement. Where can I sign up?

It's a lazy foot to start off on, in my opinion.

For me, it's really Chise's woe-is-me backstory and lack of agency that is bogging this anime down. I've seen a lot of other characters pick themselves up from far worse and were the better for it. With some tweaks, she could actually be a compelling or relatable character, but as she is now, to me, she feels like a Mary Sue who we're supposed to root for just because of her tragic backstory.

I feel like this is a problem a lot of anime and other storytelling media have been struggling with, and it's a shame, because interesting characters can really be the difference between a good show and an amazing one.


Mary Sue is the last thing you want to call Chise.
Oct 23, 2017 9:40 AM

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Not even gonna bother if you don't understand what the show is about.







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Oct 23, 2017 9:56 AM
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AquaWateria said:
fenderstratt said:
I have a problem with this too, but it's purely from a writing standpoint. "MC has a problem, so she's going to give up and let someone else solve it for her."

I wish I could just give up and have someone want to buy me because I'm magically special, and better yet, he wants me to be his bride, and he's going to teach me how to do all kinds of cool magic. Not to mention he's a total gentleman who isn't going to be pervy about the arrangement. Where can I sign up?

It's a lazy foot to start off on, in my opinion.

For me, it's really Chise's woe-is-me backstory and lack of agency that is bogging this anime down. I've seen a lot of other characters pick themselves up from far worse and were the better for it. With some tweaks, she could actually be a compelling or relatable character, but as she is now, to me, she feels like a Mary Sue who we're supposed to root for just because of her tragic backstory.

I feel like this is a problem a lot of anime and other storytelling media have been struggling with, and it's a shame, because interesting characters can really be the difference between a good show and an amazing one.


Mary Sue is the last thing you want to call Chise.

Why?

Lunafleurette said:
Not even gonna bother if you don't understand what the show is about.

What is it about?
fenderstrattOct 23, 2017 10:32 AM
Oct 23, 2017 10:10 AM

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fenderstratt said:
AquaWateria said:


Mary Sue is the last thing you want to call Chise.

Why?

Lunafleurette said:
Not even gonna bother if you don't understand what the show is about.

What is it about?


Chise is going to change as the story progress, so I don't think it's relevant to summarize the entirety of the show based only on just how a character felt at one moment in her life.

Basically what the other person above said: you don't understand what the show is about. But that's not your fault at all. The story has been settled to know more about Chise's life as the story progress. That's the reason why it is not recommended to watch the OVA prior of watching the TV series. Chise's backstory was supposed to be a mystery at this point so I get it that you don't understand the show.
Oct 23, 2017 10:22 AM
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14
In terms of glorifying slavery ,u're way out of your league there. Shows like Narcos and other films & TVShows from USA do glorify criminal stuff like drug rings ,drug cartels, and such by making the drama all about that, centering the focal point in the druglord. The scene u're describing in this anime and how it frames slavery is entirely not glorifying anything ,it just shows the motion of how that black market works.
It's focal point is on chise's hoeplessness not on her getting off on being at a balck market slave trade selling. It's a more descriptive part and more narrative in it's editing than lirycal so it's not going for a bigger meaning than world building and narrative progression & inmersion.
And if u feel this is framing slavery in a fetishistic way making elias and chise relationship a S&M relationship and submissive fantasy then i'd say read better books than 50 shades of grey or kinkier doujinshis cause that's truly sexuallysing and glorifying slavery(not in the case of 50 shades of grey) and misoginy and touch those as kinks.
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