Agnosticism...... (Belief vs. Knowledge)

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JustALEX said:

Shiratori99 said:
Cause your question is wrong in the first place ~~

Lol, which question?

The proper question is: Does God (insert definition for God here) exist?

A believer will answer yes, because he believes he knows.

An atheist will answer no, because he believes he knows.

An agnostic will answer I don't know, because he is aware that he doesn't know.

Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club.

Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more!

Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood

^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls.

Mar 24, 2014 5:03 PM

#52

Jeav

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Kyonyo said:
@JustALEX
Your question is like is ajskjafljalsf yellow?
And then you demand people to answer YES or NO even thought they don't know.

Made me laugh. Pretty much spot on.

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Mar 24, 2014 5:04 PM

#53

Abby-

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JustALEX said:

Jeav said:
Do you see the world in black and white? Because that would explain so much.

The definition of an agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

No, I don't see the world in black and white, but this issue is a REAL dichotomy.

There are only two options....yes or no.

Let me give you an example.....it is either raining outside or it ISN'T raining outside.

That is a real dichotomy.....there is no in between.

But what if you're in a basement and can't tell if it's raining outside?

Mar 24, 2014 5:05 PM

#54

LoneWolfRain

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JustALEX,

The thing is, agnostics are atheists. It's a common misconception that the two aren't to be used in conjunction.

If someone asks me "Do you BELIEVE in god?", I'd say no.

Mar 24, 2014 5:05 PM

#55

Heddie

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Some agnostics say "There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a God/Superior Entity/Creator with our current knowledge"

Does that sounds better?

Mar 24, 2014 5:05 PM

#56

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Shiratori99 said:

JustALEX said:

Shiratori99 said:
Cause your question is wrong in the first place ~~

Lol, which question?

Um....no, that's all wrong.

The very definition of atheism deals with the Non-belief in god.....it doesn't claim any knowledge.

Mar 24, 2014 5:08 PM

#57

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Sabylas said:
But what if you're in a basement and can't tell if it's raining outside?

That doesn't change the dichotomy.

It is either raining outside or it isn't....there is no in between.

LoneWolfRain said:
JustALEX,

The thing is, agnostics are atheists. It's a common misconception that the two aren't to be used in conjunction.

If someone asks me "Do you BELIEVE in god?", I'd say no.

Not all agnostic are atheists, and you can probably tell from the responses that many agnostics don't want to be labeled atheist or theist.

And I think that is the root to all of this.

Hederick said:
Some agnostics say "There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a God/Superior Entity/Creator with our current knowledge"

Does that sounds better?

That's exactly what Atheists say.

Mar 24, 2014 5:08 PM

#58

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JustALEX said:
Also, it IS avoiding the question because you refuse to answer the question in the only two options that it contains.

Belief does not deal with knowledge, no one is asking if you know that god exists.

If the question were "Do you know that god exists?" You would answer no.

But the question here is "Do you BELIEVE in god?"

Belief is to know something with absolute certainty. How could I believe in something that I'm not certain of? It's impossible.

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:09 PM

#59

Astros

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JustALEX said:

Um....no, that's all wrong.

The very definition of atheism deals with the Non-belief in god.....it doesn't claim any knowledge.

Facepalm

Mar 24, 2014 5:09 PM

#60

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JustALEX said:
That's exactly what Atheists say.

as an atheist i don't believe there is a god to be proven to exist, lol.

Mar 24, 2014 5:11 PM

#61

Jeav

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JustALEX said:

Sabylas said:
But what if you're in a basement and can't tell if it's raining outside?

That doesn't change the dichotomy.

It is either raining outside or it isn't....there is no in between.

But what is he supposed to say to your question if he doesn't know? Should he tell you he thinks it's not raining to make you happy? or does he tell you it's not?

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Mar 24, 2014 5:11 PM

#62

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sedmelluq said:
Belief is to know something with absolute certainty. How could I believe in something that I'm not certain of? It's impossible.

No it's not!

I believe it will rain tomorrow.

Do I absolutely know this with certainty?

I believe the Heat will win the 2014 NBA Championship....do I absolutely know this?

Mar 24, 2014 5:11 PM

#63

Abby-

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JustALEX said:

Sabylas said:
But what if you're in a basement and can't tell if it's raining outside?

That doesn't change the dichotomy.

It is either raining outside or it isn't....there is no in between.

But how are you supposed to judge whether or not it's raining?

Mar 24, 2014 5:11 PM

#64

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JustALEX said:

Jeav said:
Do you see the world in black and white? Because that would explain so much.

The definition of an agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

If I'm in a bunker 500 meters below the ground with no way to communicate with the surface, I would answer that question with "I don't know". Because that's pretty much the situation right now - we haven't reached the information required to make such a decision about god/religion, giving a "yes" or "no" answer would be like flipping a coin.

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:12 PM

#65

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JustALEX said:

Shiratori99 said:

JustALEX said:

Shiratori99 said:
Cause your question is wrong in the first place ~~

Lol, which question?

Um....no, that's all wrong.

The very definition of atheism deals with the Non-belief in god.....it doesn't claim any knowledge.

In the commonly used definition, yes it does.

Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club.

Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more!

Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood

^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls.

Mar 24, 2014 5:12 PM

#66

Heddie

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JustALEX said:

Hederick said:
Some agnostics say "There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a God/Superior Entity/Creator with our current knowledge"

Does that sounds better?

That's exactly what Atheists say.

No. Atheists reject the idea of a God, right away. They don't go around saying "We can't know if there's a God!".

Mar 24, 2014 5:14 PM

#67

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Astros477 said:

JustALEX said:

Um....no, that's all wrong.

The very definition of atheism deals with the Non-belief in god.....it doesn't claim any knowledge.

Facepalm

You're not serious, right?

Do you seriously not know what the definition of atheism is?

Shiratori99 said:
In the commonly used definition, yes it does.

Could you show me a definition where the word atheist is defined as knowledge that a god doesn't exist.

Holy crap, so all of this really does boil down to Belief vs. Knowledge.

Mar 24, 2014 5:15 PM

#68

Josh

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Mountains said:
Right now I am euphoric

good day to you sir

LoneWolf said:
@Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian.

Mar 24, 2014 5:16 PM

#69

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JustALEX said:

sedmelluq said:
Belief is to know something with absolute certainty. How could I believe in something that I'm not certain of? It's impossible.

No it's not!

I believe it will rain tomorrow.

Do I absolutely know this with certainty?

I believe the Heat will win the 2014 NBA Championship....do I absolutely know this?

Your usage of belief is completely erratic. In some places you use it to mean "is the likeliest option" and in some places you use it as "hope". Your usage of the word does not adhere to any specific definition and you're out here arguing the meaning of a word when you haven't even decided what you think it means.

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:16 PM

#70

Jeav

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JustALEX said:

Astros477 said:

JustALEX said:

Um....no, that's all wrong.

The very definition of atheism deals with the Non-belief in god.....it doesn't claim any knowledge.

Facepalm

You're not serious, right?

Do you seriously not know what the definition of atheism is?

Shiratori99 said:
In the commonly used definition, yes it does.

Could you show me a definition where the word atheist is defined as knowledge that a god doesn't exist.

Holy crap, so all of this really does boil down to Belief vs. Knowledge.

Agnostics don't BELIEVE since they do not KNOW. So yes that's pretty much what it boils down to for an agnostic.

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Mar 24, 2014 5:17 PM

#71

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I'll let Penn Jillette speak for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkAGExZCII

Mar 24, 2014 5:18 PM

#72

Abby-

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What a horrible thread.

Mar 24, 2014 5:18 PM

#73

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Jeav said:
So yes that's pretty much what it boils down to for an agnostic.

You understand I'm an agnostic too, right?

I'm Agnostic-atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

Mar 24, 2014 5:18 PM

#74

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JustALEX said:

Could you show me a definition where the word atheist is defined as knowledge that a god doesn't exist.

Wikipedia said:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

Even using the broad definition, rejection of belief != I don't believe. Rejection means the stance that it is silly for anyone to believe in god.

The narrow definition is much more common however, which clearly deals with knowledge.

Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club.

Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more!

Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood

^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls.

Mar 24, 2014 5:19 PM

#75

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JustALEX said:
I'll let Penn Jillette speak for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkAGExZCII

i outright reject the idea of god, lol.

Mar 24, 2014 5:21 PM

#76

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Shiratori99 said:

JustALEX said:

Could you show me a definition where the word atheist is defined as knowledge that a god doesn't exist.

Wikipedia said:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

And where in that definition does it state that atheists KNOW that god doesn't exist?

Again....Belief =/= knowledge.

Mar 24, 2014 5:21 PM

#77

Astros

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JustALEX said:

You're not serious, right?

Do you seriously not know what the definition of atheism is?

I'm glad you got the meaning behind my image at least.

Mar 24, 2014 5:23 PM

#78

SwordsmanDan

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JustALEX said:
So this is somewhat of a continuation and a proper place to discuss this thread:

http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=656529&show=280

Agnostics say they don't know whether or not there is a god....however they are NOT answering the question, or better said their response is malformed.

The question is the following:

"Do you believe in god?"

There are only two options Yes or No.

You either believe or you don't believe, if you say "I don't know" you are avoiding the question altogether because the question is not asking if you know or not know.

Belief does not deal with knowledge which you can be certain of....that's why it's a belief.

So Agnostics, do you believe in god? Yes or No.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing. Is it better to just believe what you are told and not hold out for the possibility that its wrong? Recognizing the decision may take a lot of thought, not wanting to answer that question before doing so is better than just saying what you want to hear.

Mar 24, 2014 5:23 PM

#79

Chill_

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@JustALEX
Do you believe that askdjaslfjafla is yellow?

Mar 24, 2014 5:23 PM

#80

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JustALEX said:
I'll let Penn Jillette speak for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkAGExZCII

Let's see... a video where all the comments express disagreement. Now why don't I get the urge to watch it...

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:24 PM

#81

Agnostos

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JustALEX said:

Again....Belief =/= knowledge.

Yes it is. Knowledge is just belief with more reaffirmation. You can still "know" something and be wrong, because you believed something mistakenly.

Mar 24, 2014 5:24 PM

#82

Josh

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*tips MALdora*

LoneWolf said:
@Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian.

Mar 24, 2014 5:25 PM

#83

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Agnostos said:

JustALEX said:

Again....Belief =/= knowledge.

Yes it is. Knowledge is just belief with more reaffirmation. You can still "know" something and be wrong, because you believed something mistakenly.

^ This.

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:25 PM

#84

Hulmy-chan

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Shiratori99 said:

Hulmy said:
I don't believe in God because their is so much evil in the world. Just makes sense, right?

How do you know God isn't evil?

God wouldn't be evil!

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Mar 24, 2014 5:25 PM

#85

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JustALEX said:

Shiratori99 said:

JustALEX said:

Could you show me a definition where the word atheist is defined as knowledge that a god doesn't exist.

Wikipedia said:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

And where in that definition does it state that atheists KNOW that god doesn't exist?

Again....Belief =/= knowledge.

You don't get it. Non-believing in god is already covered by the broad definition, the narrower definition deals with (supposed) knowledge. There is a difference between saying "I believe god doesn't exist" and "God doesn't exist."

Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club.

Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more!

Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood

^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls.

Mar 24, 2014 5:26 PM

#86

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Kyonyo said:
@JustALEX
Do you believe that askdjaslfjafla is yellow?

The problem with that question should be obvious.

When people ask "Do you believe in god?"

People fully understand what is meant by the word "god".

Mar 24, 2014 5:26 PM

#87

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Kafka-san said:
*tips MALdora*

m'lady.

Mar 24, 2014 5:26 PM

#88

Red_Keys

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Heredity said:

Kafka-san said:
*tips MALdora*

m'lady.

MA'Lady*

Mar 24, 2014 5:27 PM

#89

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JustALEX said:

Kyonyo said:
@JustALEX
Do you believe that askdjaslfjafla is yellow?

The problem with that question should be obvious.

When people ask "Do you believe in god?"

People fully understand what is meant by the word "god".

No, they don't. God can mean many different things/entities/beings.

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:28 PM

#90

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Agnostos said:

JustALEX said:

Again....Belief =/= knowledge.

Yes it is. Knowledge is just belief with more reaffirmation. You can still "know" something and be wrong, because you believed something mistakenly.

What?

OK, that wins the thread right now.

You just said that belief and knowledge are the same thing, game over man.

Mar 24, 2014 5:29 PM

#91

care to join me for some exquisite anime, gentlemen?

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Red_Keys said:

Heredity said:

Kafka-san said:
*tips MALdora*

m'lady.

MA'Lady*

Mar 24, 2014 5:30 PM

#92

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JustALEX said:

Agnostos said:

JustALEX said:

Again....Belief =/= knowledge.

Yes it is. Knowledge is just belief with more reaffirmation. You can still "know" something and be wrong, because you believed something mistakenly.

What?

OK, that wins the thread right now.

You just said that belief and knowledge are the same thing, game over man.

Yeah, it pretty much is. Because he's right.

If you generalize, you're wrong.

Mar 24, 2014 5:30 PM

#93

Astros

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JustALEX said:

What?

OK, that wins the thread right now.

You just said that belief and knowledge are the same thing, game over man.

It seems you need glasses or to take an English course.

Mar 24, 2014 5:30 PM

#94

Josh

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Red_Keys said:

Heredity said:

Kafka-san said:
*tips MALdora*

m'lady.

MA'Lady*

Hahhaha.

Heredity said:
care to join me for some exquisite anime, gentlemen?

So euphoric.

LoneWolf said:
@Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian.

Mar 24, 2014 5:32 PM

#95

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holy shit.....it's official.

In MAL....Belief = Knowledge.

I never stood a chance against that type of logic.

Mar 24, 2014 5:33 PM

#96

lupadim

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Emnay said:
I'm an agnostic because I don't care if there is one. I'm on the fence, if there is one then great, if not then it doesn't change my life in the slightest.

I have seen a metaphor about the face metaphor:

There was a huge fence dividing two sides. On one of the sides, there were angels. In the other side, demons. (hell and heaven)

There was a guy on the fence. The angels were telling him to get down and go the angel's side, and they would do their best to convince the man. The demons, on the other hand, weren't doing anything to convince him, they barely were looking at him.

So the man decided to ask the demons: "Why aren't you all trying to convince me to go to your side?"

"Because the fence is our territory as well"

Mar 24, 2014 5:33 PM

#97

jestakawaii

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Mar 2014

No and no. 50/50.
Ask after lunch.

Mar 24, 2014 5:33 PM

#98

Hoppy

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Hulmy said:

Shiratori99 said:

Hulmy said:
I don't believe in God because their is so much evil in the world. Just makes sense, right?

How do you know God isn't evil?

God wouldn't be evil!

A better term would be a dick or a jerk not quite evil, similar to how god is portrayed in Shin Megami Tensei.

Mar 24, 2014 5:34 PM

#99

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JustALEX said:
holy shit.....it's official.

In MAL....Belief = Knowledge.

I never stood a chance against that type of logic.

you're crazy, your threads never disappoint.

Mar 24, 2014 5:37 PM

#100