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| I'm giving this a 9/10. I feel like it should have been a 10/10, but it's just... I feel like the source material kind of gave the studio very little to work with into making a conclusion that would have let me given it a 10/10. Either way, this was a very enjoyable series and I really hope ufotable gives me a satisfying experience with their fate stay night adaptation. |
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| After watching this I wholeheartedly agree with my choice to watch FSN first. Going back to the prequel and seeing how they tied everything together, and also getting to see the juxtaposing of their two atmospheres made me like FZ even more. FZ is pretty fuckin great |
aLooser said: After watching this I wholeheartedly agree with my choice to watch FSN first. Going back to the prequel and seeing how they tied everything together, and also getting to see the juxtaposing of their two atmospheres made me like FZ even more. FZ is pretty fuckin great So Sakura's role in FSN anime doesnt look weird at all to you?I am certain that even in the Caster eps they didnt mention any worm rape,torture or poisoning.Did they even mention Zouken? |
aLooser said: After watching this I wholeheartedly agree with my choice to watch FSN first. Going back to the prequel and seeing how they tied everything together, and also getting to see the juxtaposing of their two atmospheres made me like FZ even more. FZ is pretty fuckin great Except they don't The whole sakura plotline here DIRECTLY GOES AGAINST THE BULLSHIT IN FSN ANIME, Zouken just disappears for the lulz, Saber's personality suddenly disappears and changes completely and Gilgamesh's strongest attack goes from splitting a FUCKING SKY to barely denting a ground. And that's just off the top of my head. |
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| Okay, okay, okay. I conceed. I completely forgot about Sakura when I said that, to be honest. I am finally going through the VN and I now understand that in Zero, whoever created it kinda made a lot of shit up or forgot to play the VN or something. Basically, I greatly enjoyed the anime so I was easily able to overlook the incongruities. As a side note, one thing that bothered me was the whole Lancelot deal. I know they were basically trying to stick close to the original Arthurian legend, but regarding Guinevere (King Arthur's wife whom Lancelot fell in love with and most likely diddled), there are only three possible ways to make it work in with the legend: 1. Guinevere is a man, thus Lancelot is gay. 2. Guinevere is indeed a woman, thus Saber is a lesbian (Tohsaka knows about this already though amirite??). 3. Guinevere is indeed a woman, and Saber is a futa (It only appears ever so often/ magical dildo strap-on shit since she def has a vagoo, Tohsaka and Shiro both know about this amirite??). |
aLooser said: Okay, okay, okay. I conceed. I completely forgot about Sakura when I said that, to be honest. I am finally going through the VN and I now understand that in Zero, whoever created it kinda made a lot of shit up or forgot to play the VN or something. Basically, I greatly enjoyed the anime so I was easily able to overlook the incongruities. As a side note, one thing that bothered me was the whole Lancelot deal. I know they were basically trying to stick close to the original Arthurian legend, but regarding Guinevere (King Arthur's wife whom Lancelot fell in love with and most likely diddled), there are only three possible ways to make it work in with the legend: 1. Guinevere is a man, thus Lancelot is gay. 2. Guinevere is indeed a woman, thus Saber is a lesbian (Tohsaka knows about this already though amirite??). 3. Guinevere is indeed a woman, and Saber is a futa (It only appears ever so often/ magical dildo strap-on shit since she def has a vagoo, Tohsaka and Shiro both know about this amirite??). WRong wrong wrong. Whoever made Deen's anime forgot to read the VN,and the first volumes of FZ. Guinevere was a woman that "sacrificed" her life for the king and the country,so that "Arthur" 's family could look normal,maintaining the illusion that Arturia is a man.Saber didnt fault anyone of them but she HAD to punish them as the king. From the LN: |
| Whoa... That is quite the wall of text. I would generally say "tl;dr", but I actually did read it. My post was mostly made in jest, most of the answers are readily available in the text and for the others a slight touch of logic can give you a rather suitable answer. |
| Oh my god... Crazy series, crazy episode. I loved everythig about it. I cried a little bit at the end ): Animation/story/music/characters were just perfect : 10/10 |
Hiesenberg said: Just finished it last night. - Underwhelming ending of the servants - Last two episodes were a mess - Archer too powerful, absolutely no suspense - Nothing really happened in the 1st season Ill give the whole anime 5/10, I regret watching this. Well, I'm not the only one who feels this way about F/Z lol. At the end of the day, the only aspects I enjoyed from the show were the art, animation, music, and Saber. Everything else was underwhelming, full of forced shock factor, anticlimactic, or simply not all that interesting. |
ExaccusDec 6, 2013 7:39 PM
| Salmon is delicious. |
Hiesenberg said: Just finished it last night. - Underwhelming ending of the servants - Last two episodes were a mess - Archer too powerful, absolutely no suspense - Nothing really happened in the 1st season Ill give the whole anime 5/10, I regret watching this. With the exception of Assassin,Lancer and Saber everyone else got what they wanted so what are you talking about? They where fine.If you were lost it was your problem. Archer vs Berserker was a draw and he lost the dogfight.Unless you read in spoilers what he can do you cant say that Rider had no suspense since he didnt even try to use Ea's blast a second time. Many things happened.No deaths doesnt mean no story.Even then Assassin did die.Kayneth was crippled, and several of the chars got developed. Exaccus said: Hiesenberg said: Just finished it last night. - Underwhelming ending of the servants - Last two episodes were a mess - Archer too powerful, absolutely no suspense - Nothing really happened in the 1st season Ill give the whole anime 5/10, I regret watching this. Well, I'm not the only one who feels this way about F/Z lol. At the end of the day, the only aspects I enjoyed from the show were the art, animation, music, and Saber. Everything else was underwhelming, full of forced shock factor, anticlimactic, or simply not all that interesting. I can say the same about YYK and Jojo but that is only my opinion.Now you could say why you found it that way...oh wait you did.It was your dissatisfaction with it having a bad ending.Basically you didnt like it because it had things you dont like in general not because it is of bad quality. |
ssjokg said: I can say the same about YYK and Jojo But you'd be wrong. but that is only my opinion. Indeed. Your wrong opinion. Now you could say why you found it that way...oh wait you did.It was your dissatisfaction with it having a bad ending. Yes, the ending wasn't very good at all. Not the worst in the world, but hardly something worthy of being called good. Basically you didnt like it because it had things you dont like in general not because it is of bad quality. I happen to not like things that are of bad or mediocre quality. Saying all that you've said here is nothing short of superfluous. Really, it's ironic how you try to frame this as MY not tolerating different opinions when you feel the need to patrol next to every Nasuverse related thread on MAL to debate with anyone that offers anything other than ecstatic words of praise for Nasuverse stories. Compensating for something? Projecting much? I recognize that people are sick of attitudes regarding fiction that individuals like DraconisMarch have. But don't have a knee jerk reaction and go to the polar opposite extreme and get irritated just because someone doesn't always write "in my opinion" at the beginning or end of every sentence when they review a fictional story. Bleach is full of trollish writing. Yu Yu Hakusho is quality. Oreimo is garbage. Gosick is a great show. Fate/Zero is average/mediocre. So no, I'm not going to put "in my opinion" in every sentence just to stroke the egos of fanboys/girls or haters of any given anime or manga series. |
| Salmon is delicious. |
| Then you are also wrong about FZ. Hahahah ,yeah.Because you actually have a correct one right? Not happy ending=/= bad ending.Good ending does not equal quality. Your taste isnt better than any other user here.Saying that is is bad because they dont get a happy ending isnt better taste or that you can recognize good from bad quality.And seeing as most if not all of the reasons you didnt like it, that you posted some months ago, were because you hardly cared or paid attention to the series still doesnt make your opinion a fact. YYK is anticlimactic and underwhelming.After the first arc it is no better than any other shounen series.Jojo is underwhelming and so full of forced shock factor, and that is a fact, that makes everything from Nasuverse seem like child's play.Now except the shock factor, everything else is based on what you are looking for in a series.And that is not about quality writing. bla bla bla instead f attacking me, as if I was the only one that refuted you some months ago, say why FZ's shock factor is bad while another series that just so happens to be your favs is ok when it has many times more of the shit that FZ has. |
Hiesenberg said: "Not happy ending=/= bad ending.Good ending does not equal quality." No one has said this once, I like my bad endings actually. ssjokg was referring to this post from Exaccus earlier in the thread: Exaccus said: 2) Bizarre/anticlimactic plot progression and endings everywhere. This includes the main plot in addition to the subplots. What was the point of Kariya and his objective? Just to get trolled and die for no reason? Kiritsugu never achieved his goal. Saber didn't achieve her goal. Maiya, Kayneth, and Sola Ui all died like dogs. Assassin got no character depth or growth, or a Noble Phantasm, and was killed off early. Lancer got shat on by everyone (except Saber) and died. Rider got utterly wtfpwned by the overpowered Gilgamesh. Berserker hardly got screen time at all and his subplot with Saber seemed rushed and vaguely explained. Caster and his Ryuunosuke were just a couple insane murderers who contributed nothing substantive and worthwhile to the plot, unless you consider butchering kids a positive thing. Tokiomi hardly did anything beyond getting back-stabbed by Kirei. Kirei and Gilgamesh are basically just a couple of scheming douchebags who "won" in the end. That's pretty much it. What a pointless and extremely unsatisfying conclusion. To put it bluntly, "X didn't achieve his/her goal" is not a reasonable justification to say the show is bad. Hiesenberg said: This is probably the part that explains why you didn't enjoy watching. I know Fate/Zero sells itself like an action show, but its real strength is its excellent cast of characters. You need to spend time developing characters so that they aren't just shallow cardboard cutouts, and this is true for all anime and media. Spending a large amount of time on a show's characters is not a flaw; it is essential to creating a great anime. Fate/Zero spends so much time on character development because that is what gives it depth and quality beyond just being a show about cool fights. I don't want to be rude, but I honestly can't understand how character development is boring. This is one of the core foundations of good storytelling.'Many things happened' HAHAHA, those three things are 'many things'? hahaha, I'd rather not watch 13 episodes just for character development, it was boring as hell. |
| @Hiesenberg How the fuck was the ending deep?People should stop describing endings that didnt understood as deep.Yes I said "didnt understood".A character not reaching his goal, a goal that from the beginning was impossible, isnt a deep ending.The ending had nothing that the series hadnt already given us. Your statement about Archer is simply wrong when in his previous fights he wasnt victorious at all. Characters were developed(here add what daedroth4 also said above) ,Assassin died,Gil and Kirei started to form their relationship,Waver started to understand/like Rider,Kiritsugu fought Kayneth which lead to plenty of destruction and Kayneth getting crippled,Sola took Lancer for her own,Caster's workshop was found and destroyed,etc I see that you failed to understand that I was replying to Exaccus who yes did attack me, but... Hiesenberg said: Exaccus said: So no, I'm not going to put "in my opinion" in every sentence just to stroke the egos of fanboys/girls or haters of any given anime or manga series. I like this quote, people need to stop saying "WELL THATS JUST YOUR OPINION!!!" Of course it's my opinion, what else can a person give? ...this is only because you "agree" with him about FZ. A person must give reasons,why x is a bad show, from inside the show.Saying that Acrher is all powerful so his fights have no suspense at all makes no sense when he already had a draw and a defeat, in 2 out of 3 battles....Otherwise you can simply say that you found it bad because you werent in the mood to watch it,it is the same thing. Fate/Zero doesnt sell itself as an action show.That is the misconception people have when they read "war" in the synopsis.Especially after ep 5,this idea should have been gone since it showed that the chars arent generic Generals that attack with no plan in their heads. |
ssjokgDec 8, 2013 2:03 AM
daedroth4 said: Hiesenberg said: "Not happy ending=/= bad ending.Good ending does not equal quality." No one has said this once, I like my bad endings actually. ssjokg was referring to this post from Exaccus earlier in the thread: Exaccus said: 2) Bizarre/anticlimactic plot progression and endings everywhere. This includes the main plot in addition to the subplots. What was the point of Kariya and his objective? Just to get trolled and die for no reason? Kiritsugu never achieved his goal. Saber didn't achieve her goal. Maiya, Kayneth, and Sola Ui all died like dogs. Assassin got no character depth or growth, or a Noble Phantasm, and was killed off early. Lancer got shat on by everyone (except Saber) and died. Rider got utterly wtfpwned by the overpowered Gilgamesh. Berserker hardly got screen time at all and his subplot with Saber seemed rushed and vaguely explained. Caster and his Ryuunosuke were just a couple insane murderers who contributed nothing substantive and worthwhile to the plot, unless you consider butchering kids a positive thing. Tokiomi hardly did anything beyond getting back-stabbed by Kirei. Kirei and Gilgamesh are basically just a couple of scheming douchebags who "won" in the end. That's pretty much it. What a pointless and extremely unsatisfying conclusion. To put it bluntly, "X didn't achieve his/her goal" is not a reasonable justification to say the show is bad. Hiesenberg said: This is probably the part that explains why you didn't enjoy watching. I know Fate/Zero sells itself like an action show, but its real strength is its excellent cast of characters. You need to spend time developing characters so that they aren't just shallow cardboard cutouts, and this is true for all anime and media. Spending a large amount of time on a show's characters is not a flaw; it is essential to creating a great anime. Fate/Zero spends so much time on character development because that is what gives it depth and quality beyond just being a show about cool fights. I don't want to be rude, but I honestly can't understand how character development is boring. This is one of the core foundations of good storytelling.'Many things happened' HAHAHA, those three things are 'many things'? hahaha, I'd rather not watch 13 episodes just for character development, it was boring as hell. If anticlimactic endings, long winded/tedious dialogue, Gilgamesh being incredibly overpowered, piss poor pacing in the first season, a lack of fights, shoehorned shock factor, etc is someone's idea of a quality show then I don't know what to say. Story endings that render everything the cast worked for during the plot to be utterly pointless are not well written. It's the same reason why the conclusion of the Oreimo anime was atrocious. Again, if you think otherwise, I don't know what to say. Character development? The only characters in the show who experienced any growth were Waver, Kiritsugu, and Kirei. And only one of them has development that's worth anything. Waver is forgettable, he's just some kid. Nothing about him stands out. Kiritsugu? He found himself unable to bare moral consequentialism after realizing the Grail couldn't give him what his heart desired: happiness and peace for everyone. It's decent, I'll grant that. But Kiritsugu's moral vision and his questionable method of achieving it are all he had going for him because other than that he was largely a lifeless, brooding character. Not exactly relatable. And Kirei? He was boring, possessing nothing but dead eyes and a low droning voice. A lifeless character. Did he change? Yes. But to what? In a nutshell, he came to realize the only thing interesting to him in life was indulging in sadism. That's it. That's really what his "character development" boils down to. How exactly is that deep, brilliant, thoughtful, or mature? Sorry, but I'm genuinely baffled that people think that kind of writing justifies a 9/10 or 10/10 score. Never mind all the other problems that show had. The show had a good premise and lots of potential but largely failed in its game plan to use what it had. To use an analogy: the ingredients were good, but the cook didn't do a good job mixing them together when preparing the meal. A real shame too, since I started F/Z actually wanting to like it. |
| Salmon is delicious. |
| First of all,with all the shit that happened in the ending it is far from anticlimactic.If you found the dialogues tedious that is your impression of them not their quality. Gilgamesh being overpowered has nothing to do with the quality of the story as well.If Rider had won by making his army stomp him to death you would say the same thing.And as I said before Gil only overpowerd Rider,in his other two fight she didnt won shit. You complain about the "piss poor" pacing in the first season,which it's actually translated to lack of fights as you say later, when in another post and in a conversation with another user you complain about the series not explaining itself properly.So make up your mind. Shock factor isnt a negative if it isnt the only thing in a series.You still didnt say why it is bad here but in Jojo it is justified.Your idea of a quality show is based simply on if you found it interesting, not in its own quality.Also complaining about cruelty in a story about a war...I see you are a fan of Saint Seiya...yeah....SS's "wars",including its prequels', arent how a wars should be written.Especially when in SS the wars are about the fate of the world as a goal. No it isnt.With the same logic Game of Thrones is the worst book series ever.The characters except Kirei,Gil,Rider,Waver,Caster and his Master, failed in reaching their goals for a reason,not so they could just fail.Oh wait there are already enough chars that were rewarded. Waver,Kiritsugu,Kirei,Rider and Gil had enough development for the entire show.If you dont like them because they are evil, morally questionable or a kid it isnt a problem of the show. Waver stood up to Gilgamesh,the all overpowered according to you,because of his development.He is "some kid" that reached the final four and that is something great.That he is a kid tha t you dont give a sit about isnt proof of quality writing. Kiritsugu being relatable has nothing to do with quality as well.Lifeless?The last 8 years of his life were pretty good.1st season proved that.Oh yeah nothing happened there. If that is your idea of criticism for Kirei " boring, possessing nothing but dead eyes and a low droning voice."Then you are a just a troll. Being a sociopath is his character.That you didnt like that char as if such chars shouldnt exist isnt proof of bad quality. Again, you, the critic, is the only one that calls anything from that show "deep, brilliant, thoughtful, or mature" in all these posts.It is simply good.Far better than chars that do things simply for the sake for doing them like in Jojo Part 1 and Part 2. I'm genuinely baffled that you call that criticism.What "other" problems? You have in your head an entirely different idea of what FZ really was.That isnt the a problem from the author and the story.It is your own. You have the idea in your head that if a "good" char fails his objective it is automatically bad.That simply shows how you WANT stories to be written and that you have no idea about quality.In another analogy, the cook and the ingredients were good, it was your tongue that had the problem.No you didnt want to like it.Seeing as you do "your best" in calling Type Moon's works bad,I doubt that you wanted to like it. And btw you are basically asking a story to change its story even though it is a prequel so that only you can enjoy it.It is like asking from Star Wars III to not make Anakin what we know as Darth Vader. I took a look at your lists...It looks like whatever that just doesnt interests you, it is just bad...You seem to think highly of yourself. |
ssjokgDec 8, 2013 4:22 AM
ssjokg said: First of all,with all the shit that happened in the ending it is far from anticlimactic.If you found the dialogues tedious that is your impression of them not their quality. Gilgamesh being overpowered has nothing to do with the quality of the story as well.If Rider had won by making his army stomp him to death you would say the same thing.And as I said before Gil only overpowerd Rider,in his other two fight she didnt won shit. You complain about the "piss poor" pacing in the first season,which it's actually translated to lack of fights as you say later, when in another post and in a conversation with another user you complain about the series not explaining itself properly.So make up your mind. Shock factor isnt a negative if it isnt the only thing in a series.You still didnt say why it is bad here but in Jojo it is justified.Your idea of a quality show is based simply on if you found it interesting, not in its own quality.Also complaining about cruelty in a story about a war...I see you are a fan of Saint Seiya...yeah....SS's "wars",including its prequels', arent how a wars should be written.Especially when in SS the wars are about the fate of the world as a goal. No it isnt.With the same logic Game of Thrones is the worst book series ever.The characters except Kirei,Gil,Rider,Waver,Caster and his Master, failed in reaching their goals for a reason,not so they could just fail.Oh wait there are already enough chars that were rewarded. Waver,Kiritsugu,Kirei,Rider and Gil had enough development for the entire show.If you dont like them because they are evil, morally questionable or a kid it isnt a problem of the show. Waver stood up to Gilgamesh,the all overpowered according to you,because of his development.He is "some kid" that reached the final four and that is something great.That he is a kid tha t you dont give a sit about isnt proof of quality writing. Kiritsugu being relatable has nothing to do with quality as well.Lifeless?The last 8 years of his life were pretty good.1st season proved that.Oh yeah nothing happened there. If that is your idea of criticism for Kirei " boring, possessing nothing but dead eyes and a low droning voice."Then you are a just a troll. Being a sociopath is his character.That you didnt like that char as if such chars shouldnt exist isnt proof of bad quality. Again, you, the critic, is the only one that calls anything from that show "deep, brilliant, thoughtful, or mature" in all these posts.It is simply good.Far better than chars that do things simply for the sake for doing them like in Jojo Part 1 and Part 2. I'm genuinely baffled that you call that criticism.What "other" problems? You have in your head an entirely different idea of what FZ really was.That isnt the a problem from the author and the story.It is your own. You have the idea in your head that if a "good" char fails his objective it is automatically bad.That simply shows how you WANT stories to be written and that you have no idea about quality.In another analogy, the cook and the ingredients were good, it was your tongue that had the problem.No you didnt want to like it.Seeing as you do "your best" in calling Type Moon's works bad,I doubt that you wanted to like it. And btw you are basically asking a story to change its story even though it is a prequel so that only you can enjoy it.It is like asking from Star Wars III to not make Anakin what we know as Darth Vader. I took a look at your lists...It looks like whatever that just doesnt interests you, it is just bad...You seem to think highly of yourself. tl;dr |
| Salmon is delicious. |
| I wasnt expecting much from you anyway. |
| 1What was so confusing about Kiritsugu destroying a grail that couldnt do anything but destroy? 2.Gilgamesh was the last Servant standing so how are you absolutely sure that Kiritsugu won?First of all the grail appeared when both Kiritsugu an Kirei were still alive.And it was explained why Kirei was alive. 3.No it wasnt necessary for her to die. 4.Yes Saber failed but many things were accomplished.The point of those 2 seasons was to show what happened in the 4th Holy Grail War,10 years before the 5th.Refer to 1.Yeah kill 6 billion people for his wife makes perfect sense when you think about his ideals. 5.Yes Iri died for nothing. You are just butthurt that this didnt have a happy ending.ANd if you had a little bit of logic inside your head you would understand that it couldnt have a happy ending. |
| GOT DAM KIREI I KNEW U WAS COLD BLOODED BUT HOW YOU GON' HAND A GIRL THE KNIFE THAT KILLED HER DAD!!!! wait does this mean my baby Ilya is going to be a vessel too? ;__; ufotable pls "Kariya otosan" was hilarious. fate/stay night please be this good and i will love ufotable forever. |
davidfresh said: GOT DAM KIREI I KNEW U WAS COLD BLOODED BUT HOW YOU GON' HAND A GIRL THE KNIFE THAT KILLED HER DAD!!!! wait does this mean my baby Ilya is going to be a vessel too? ;__; ufotable pls "Kariya otosan" was hilarious. fate/stay night please be this good and i will love ufotable forever. All Einzerbn homunculi are made for the purpose of being grail vessels. |
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Forgetfulness said: And that's why even Kirei likes the end.odysseyrh said: It's also pretty ironic considering what happens in Fate/stay night l0lwow that was a sick sadistic thing there Father, you give the daughter the murder weapon and pass it off a rite of passage gift that she will in turn treasure. |
| >Implying that the FSN anime is properly scripted.... With the exception of Sasaki(Assassin)and True Assassin, I find every other FSN Servant better than FZ's.Saber is the same while Gil,although a bit different, has more scenes in FZ. FZ Berserker beats FSN's Berserker only in appearance. FSN Caster beats FZ Caster,Rider,Lancer,Assassin..well everyone except Archer and Saber. FSN Rider(proper Master) is the same. Lancer the same.Probably a draw with FZ Lancer. etc etc. OF course I am talking about the Visual Novel. |
Forgetfulness said: ssjokg said: It probably appears that way because the masters in Fate/Zero were a lot more professional Magi and weren't hindered by factors that the Fate/stay night masters were>Implying that the FSN anime is properly scripted.... With the exception of Sasaki(Assassin)and True Assassin, I find every other FSN Servant better than FZ's.Saber is the same while Gil,although a bit different, has more scenes in FZ. FZ Berserker beats FSN's Berserker only in appearance. FSN Caster beats FZ Caster,Rider,Lancer,Assassin..well everyone except Archer and Saber. FSN Rider(proper Master) is the same. Lancer the same.Probably a draw with FZ Lancer. etc etc. OF course I am talking about the Visual Novel. e.g. That's Fate route for you.... |
odysseyrh said: when I made that statement I had already taken the masters lack of skill into consideration and discarded it as a basis to compare. That's a different topic as in what happened in 10 years with the quality of the Magi World that the next grail war had 7 novice Mages. In F/Z it seemed that the Heroes learned of each others identity faster than in F/SN. I liked both lancers, F/Z Saber, Rider, and Gil, and F/SN berserker. Gil in F/Z was arrogant, but he was that cool kind of one, Like a Tony Stark of Epic heroes. But something happens in 10 years and he becomes this Love-sick, arrogant bigot in F/SN (best way I could describe it) Case in point, after the battle with Rider, Archer showed signs of respect to the defeat and when he approached Waber had that been F/SN he'd have killed the kid, no questions asked. Instead he asked a question, liked the answer then offered words of encouragement. It does not "depend" on quality of magi world. The ones to summon the servant are the masters. What it depends on is the war happening WAY TOO EARLY than it usually has to as usually the gap between wars is 60 years and not 10. So 10 years latter, three of them will always belong to the three major families. That means out of 7 masters, 3 WILL be children, considering Mato, Tohsaka and Einzbern family state. Considering Avalon is in Shirou, Shirou will ALWAYS summon Saber, thus four of 7 HAVE to be those children, with three others being adults. Now i we look at masters themselves, Rin is arguably one of the top "younger" mages of association, considering her number of circuits and her talent. Illya as Einzbern has gazillion o circuits so yet again no downside to her being a master. And Also no. Gilgamesh is ALWAYS love-sick, the person he loves is himself. If the rider happened during FSN, the reaction would most likely be the same. THe only reason he is arrogant in the fith war is because he sees everyone there as below him. If he did not, they ALL would be dead. |
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| What Fai said. FZ has 4 capable Masters(well including Tokiomi...). FSN has 6 with Being children has nothing to do with being capable. And Gil=Tony Startk?How?Stark IS a good guy.Gilgamesh while not evil , isnt in the side of justice. You forget that Rider AND Waver proved themselves to be worthy.When Gil appeared in front of the others for the first time he was ready to kill them.Not much different from FSN.In FSN he was quite laid back than he was in FZ. Do you forget his wedding proposal in FZ? |
ssjokg said: What Fai said. FZ has 4 capable Masters(well including Tokiomi...). FSN has 6 with Being children has nothing to do with being capable. And Gil=Tony Startk?How?Stark IS a good guy.Gilgamesh while not evil , isnt in the side of justice. You forget that Rider AND Waver proved themselves to be worthy.When Gil appeared in front of the others for the first time he was ready to kill them.Not much different from FSN.In FSN he was quite laid back than he was in FZ. Do you forget his wedding proposal in FZ? Yep. Actually apart certain book-wielding trash and Kuizuki, every single FSN master is capable. - Shirou is ultimate foil to Gilgamesh and Kirei and theoretically very effective way to go against masters the same way Kiritsugu was - EVERYONE would underestimate him. If he did not have mana problems, he would arguably be even more useful. Oh and let's not forget that he theoretically is capable of dealing a deathblow to Saber Alter. If he had Rin's or Sakura's magic capabilities, that would be like cheating. - Rin is pretty much the heavy-hitter in terms of magic output and with jewel sword should be capable standing her ground against any of masters, as well as some servants. - - - - Caster wields True Magic, which makes her pretty much nigh instantly above every single magi alive barring Zelretch. She is amongst weaker servants, but her abilities make her amongst most capable known Masters. - Illya is einzbern homunculus. Gazillion circuits, infinite prana, closeness to Third Magic. - Kirei is a fucking executor. Most of 4th War Masters were fame-seeking(or murder-seeking) idiots getting involved in something way over their heads. 5th Grail masters are the powerhouses MADE by the actions of the said idiots. I fear to imagine on just how it would have transpired with grown-up versions of those characters 50 more years latter. As for Gil, he has his own kind of justice. He is always self-centered but his allegiances depend on his mood - hence why Hollow Ataraxia Gil is far more helpful and Moon Cell War Gilgamesh(closest to the REAL gilgamesh) is far more gallant and somewhat caring(well caring enough to risk his own existence by going against Moon Cell in order to save the main character). He DOES have Tony Stark-ish qualities. But he also is a psychopath. |
AhenshihaelDec 19, 2013 6:32 PM
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Forgetfulness said: ssjokg said: Why does Fate/Zero only have 4 capable Masters? Are you not counting Waver or something?What Fai said. FZ has 4 capable Masters(well including Tokiomi...). FSN has 6 with Being children has nothing to do with being capable. And Gil=Tony Startk?How?Stark IS a good guy.Gilgamesh while not evil , isnt in the side of justice. You forget that Rider AND Waver proved themselves to be worthy.When Gil appeared in front of the others for the first time he was ready to kill them.Not much different from FSN.In FSN he was quite laid back than he was in FZ. Do you forget his wedding proposal in FZ? Well anyway, now that we're discussing the Masters, it does seem like Fate/stay night has more powerful masters. Well, |
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| I am not counting Waver since the only thing he did and is worthy of mention is to find Caster's base. In a magi fight, even Kariya would beat him. And I said capable not powerful.But I Am going to add that too. |
| Nope they arent support chars in FSN.First of all the mains in FZ are Kirei,Kiritsugu and Saber with Gilgamesh as focused Servants. Now with exception of Lancer who has his backstory in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia and the Assassins who lack it entirely the others have enough to complete with FZ's. Saber,Archer,Rider are good mains(or to put it better better focused) in their stories. Please lets leave the "deep"definitions and discussions about justice out of this. Gil has a signle trait that Stark has and he is like him? |
Forgetfulness said: Since Rin's way of storing mana was taught by him wouldnt he have WAY more mana stored than she would? I dont think that this would matter.The reason why even Zelretch thought that it would take time to make the sword was because they wouldnt find a way to make it in so few generations. What matters is the output so Rin would still be better. |
odysseyrh said: ok, first off I am discounting the magi in my opinion of the Epic Heroes. They are unto themselves a separate character class. Which does not work that much since they are linked. Saber under Waver would be complete shit. Saber under Rin, Illya or Sakura would be hax beyond imagination. The servant stats are dependent on their master. Now why I like F/Z heroes over F/SN isn't just who they used its also how it was done. The opening scene with Beserker where he dodges one sword then grabs the second to deflect the third, that was awesome... you don't see that kind of animation or choreograph in F/SN. Saber turning the bike into something else in her chase of Rider, was pretty cool. That's what I am saying seems like the F/Z animation department put more time into the Heroic Spirits fights than did the F/SN animation dept. But that's understandable when u look at the two stories, No different from - Rider/Shirou tag-team against Saber. - Sakura/Rin confrontation. - Every single Shirou fight. Considering its bassically a massive space-battle of swords. - Every single Archer fight. Considering yet again, the swordpspam and his fighting style pretty much resembling a mix of modern dancing and parkour. Then again, the closest we have seen Archer fight animated was in another timeline from the main show, but if ufotable's remake is any good, we will see that in the "main" timeline too - Every single Rider fight. Considering huge part of her's is all about mobility. - Every single Gilgamesh fight. F/Z has the spirits as Main Character and Magi as supporting character, and F/SN is the opposite. (supporting role in the story not abilities, I know some1 going so "Yea cause they are younger in F/SN. that's not what I am talking about). Incorrect. F/Z has Kiritsugu, Iris, Saber, Gilgamesh and Kirei as lead characters. F/SN has Shirou, Rin, Sakura, Rider, Saber and Archer as lead, with Lancer joining in more lead role in Ataraxia. However others get equal amount of attention . About the Tony Stark remark....justice is on the side of the victor and good and evil are subjective terms. Why I said Stark isn't about his role in the story but his characteristics. Stark embodies every trait that is less than appeasing but he pulls it off in such a way that u cant help but like the guy. Yes Archer is an arrogant prick, but you cant help but like him for 24 of the episodes. Gilgamesh also happens to eat Forgetfulness said: Remember how Rin mocked Sakura with analogy of a water sink? That "supply" means jack shit, if you don't have an output to match it. Rin has pretty much THE maximum output, only matched by Sakura. Jewel Sword, just as grail, does not "enlarge" your output. IT just provides mana(through parallel realities) AND the type of attack. Since Rin is pretty much implied to be the TOP of what Tohsaka clan has achieved, Tokiomi would NOT fare better with the sword than his daughter does. ExtendedRenegade said: Yeah, so uh...to get back to the original topic here, for those of us that haven't explored the series beyond the anime this ending ep leaves a few things unanswered, though it's nothing really bad enough for me to say that it isn't a great ending to a great show. That's because its a faithful adaptation of novel that is supposed to be a supplementary material and not main material - It relies on the viewer already knowing everything else, as well as what this mess leads to. |
AhenshihaelDec 21, 2013 12:42 PM
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| edit: realised I was wrong Well, first time I saw any Fate series, finished Fate/Zero now. Holy shit. The start of the series was abit slow with too many "oh he died, oh nevermind he didn't because healing/trick"s. This ending sucked for about every character involved in the grail war hahaha. Amazing. And that insectguy, Kirya or whatever has to be the biggest loser of the show, killing sakura and rin's mother in anger then getting killed by sakura. Wow, hahaha. Never has suffering been this entertaining for me XD. I do feel bad for Ilya&Rin especially. |
DaBaseDec 24, 2013 12:19 PM
DaBase333 said: Well, first time I saw any Fate series, finished Fate/Zero now. Holy shit. The start of the series was abit slow with too many "oh he died, oh nevermind he didn't because healing/trick"s. This ending sucked for about every character involved in the grail war hahaha. Amazing. And that insectguy, Kirya or whatever has to be the biggest loser of the show, killing sakura and rin's mother in anger then getting killed by sakura. Wow, hahaha. Never has suffering been this entertaining for me XD. I do feel bad for Ilya&Rin especially. About every char you mean about half of them? How did he kill Aoi and how exactly did Sakura kill him? |
ssjokg said: DaBase333 said: Well, first time I saw any Fate series, finished Fate/Zero now. Holy shit. The start of the series was abit slow with too many "oh he died, oh nevermind he didn't because healing/trick"s. This ending sucked for about every character involved in the grail war hahaha. Amazing. And that insectguy, Kirya or whatever has to be the biggest loser of the show, killing sakura and rin's mother in anger then getting killed by sakura. Wow, hahaha. Never has suffering been this entertaining for me XD. I do feel bad for Ilya&Rin especially. About every char you mean about half of them? How did he kill Aoi and how exactly did Sakura kill him? Didn't he choke her in church after she thought he had killed her husband? And Sakura threw him in a pit of insects claiming "That's what happens when you go against grandpa". Unless I'm mixing up names. |
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