I will not work or study. I want to pass time

Jun 18, 2023 1:05 PM

#51

thinkpad

Offline

Jul 2009

363

MizunoWaveRider said:

thinkpad said:
I know more than social media and entertainment despite shunning them completely.

You're using social media right now. You also watch anime. You're also a shitposter.

thinkpad said:
What types of advanced technology or tools are you even talking about?

I'm not talking about advanced technology, you were. I just said tools are tools.

thinkpad said:
If we have AI cars and tractors for food, clean water and electricity delivered to your home, when do you think you'll be able to get a minimal effort job that supports you to live freely doing your paintings and philosophy? Are you considered a prodigy worth supporting?

Don't worry I don't need it right now, rather give it to the 13.4 million people in the UK who are struggling to get enough to eat. Unless you believe they are not worth supporting and thus deserve to starve. Maybe you will find a prodigy child among them that deserves not to starve.

I watch and enjoy some anime and read some manga (fewer shows finished than you mind), but that derisive comment you made about shitposting is baloney. Forums like this one predate social media, it is not a social media platform unless (like your definition of technology) this means everything and anything you see online of course!

I don't accept you even have a point to make anymore and you argue semantics each time without explaining yourself when asked anything, that's hardly reputable, and you call me a shitposter? hah!

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Jun 18, 2023 1:31 PM

#52

MizunoWaveRider

Offline

Feb 2014

480

thinkpad said:

MizunoWaveRider said:

You're using social media right now. You also watch anime. You're also a shitposter.

I'm not talking about advanced technology, you were. I just said tools are tools.

Don't worry I don't need it right now, rather give it to the 13.4 million people in the UK who are struggling to get enough to eat. Unless you believe they are not worth supporting and thus deserve to starve. Maybe you will find a prodigy child among them that deserves not to starve.

I watch and enjoy some anime and read some manga (fewer shows finished than you mind), but that derisive comment you made about shitposting is baloney. Forums like this one predate social media, it is not a social media platform unless (like your definition of technology) this means everything and anything you see online of course!

I don't accept you even have a point to make anymore and you argue semantics each time without explaining yourself when asked anything, that's hardly reputable, and you call me a shitposter? hah!

Google "are forums social media" (you know how to google right?). Spoiler: Yes they are. You're just acting like some old dude thinking you're special because you're still using a nokia instead of a smartphone.

What did I not explain?

Jun 18, 2023 4:50 PM

#53

DreamWindow

ああああああああ

Offline

Apr 2013

5547

MizunoWaveRider said:

StarfireDragon said:

Yeah I think that's just a load of wishful thinking right there. Not every country is even remotely the same in terms of technological development, and so there will always be differences in terms of the outcome, and how capable they are able to implement automated production. The machinery necessary for a "fully" automated workforce to "free humanity from labour" is obscenely far from where we are as a society, and even if we ever reach that point, there will still need to be people to maintain those systems. All that does, then, is make the only remaining labourers elusively rare, and so we will be putting pretty much all of our eggs in one basket.

The figure of available jobs doesn't really mean anything, since there is never a fixed number of jobs in an economy, and people can remain jobless for any amount of time, assuming that they are all staying jobless is not exactly the case.

That's cool and all but what does this have to do with what I said? Optimization will always lead to a reduction of work volume, doesn't matter how advanced a society is. This reduction needs to be dealt with. The way we are currently dealing with it is by artificially creating bullshit jobs to keep people busy.

Well, no, no, it does matter how advanced the society is, because in order to reach optimization, it requires economic development. If the goal is to "free people from labour" then naturally it would require an automated workforce. Unless you just mean the acquisition of capital, such as robots and whatnot to make production of goods cheaper and easier to produce. These still require labour, to operate and maintain.

Statistics say there are more jobless people than available jobs.
Not having to work and not working are two different things. People working because they want to is great, people having to work bullshit jobs because of some artificially created shortage of goods is not.

Define "bullshit job" and "artificial shortage of goods"

This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes

Jun 19, 2023 12:15 AM

#54

MizunoWaveRider

Offline

Feb 2014

480

StarfireDragon said:

MizunoWaveRider said:

That's cool and all but what does this have to do with what I said? Optimization will always lead to a reduction of work volume, doesn't matter how advanced a society is. This reduction needs to be dealt with. The way we are currently dealing with it is by artificially creating bullshit jobs to keep people busy.

Well, no, no, it does matter how advanced the society is, because in order to reach optimization, it requires economic development. If the goal is to "free people from labour" then naturally it would require an automated workforce. Unless you just mean the acquisition of capital, such as robots and whatnot to make production of goods cheaper and easier to produce. These still require labour, to operate and maintain.

Statistics say there are more jobless people than available jobs.
Not having to work and not working are two different things. People working because they want to is great, people having to work bullshit jobs because of some artificially created shortage of goods is not.

Define "bullshit job" and "artificial shortage of goods"

You're thinking too binary there. It's not either fully automated or not automated at all, it's about how, for example, using a shovel gets things done faster than using just your hands. The time you save by using a tool instead of no tool is gained freedom. By optimizing the usage of tools people gain more and more freedom to do other things.

For definition of bullshit jobs read David Graeber's book or look up his definition / categorization.
Artificial shortage of goods means limiting or holding back on limitless or near-limitless resources. There are more reasons for why this happens, but in the context of this discussion it's to make it easier to blackmail people into taking bad jobs or bullshit jobs.

Jun 19, 2023 12:57 AM

#55

faxer567

Offline

Apr 2023

5

Its hard to live without work for me

Jun 19, 2023 6:06 AM

#56

DreamWindow

ああああああああ

Offline

Apr 2013

5547

MizunoWaveRider said:

StarfireDragon said:

MizunoWaveRider said:

StarfireDragon said:

MizunoWaveRider said:
What many people don't realize is that the goal of all technological and economical achievements is to free humanity from labour. In Iceland, thanks to factory ships, they are able to produce 4x the amount of fish with 1/4th of the necessary manpower compared to 30 years ago. 75% of all workers are not needed anymore to be 400% more productive, and it's no different with any other field.
In Germany, there are roughly 4 million jobless people and 1 million available jobs. You don't need to be a master mathmatician to see that even if everyone wanted to get a job there wouldn't be enough anyway. The reality that many conservative people don't understand or don't want to accept is that people being freed from labour is inevitable and a good thing and the system needs to be adjusted accordingly. Instead of wasting everyone's time creating unnecessary bullshit jobs just so people "earn their income", we should just give people a basic income unconditionally and let them decide their own path in life.

Yeah I think that's just a load of wishful thinking right there. Not every country is even remotely the same in terms of technological development, and so there will always be differences in terms of the outcome, and how capable they are able to implement automated production. The machinery necessary for a "fully" automated workforce to "free humanity from labour" is obscenely far from where we are as a society, and even if we ever reach that point, there will still need to be people to maintain those systems. All that does, then, is make the only remaining labourers elusively rare, and so we will be putting pretty much all of our eggs in one basket.

The figure of available jobs doesn't really mean anything, since there is never a fixed number of jobs in an economy, and people can remain jobless for any amount of time, assuming that they are all staying jobless is not exactly the case.

That's cool and all but what does this have to do with what I said? Optimization will always lead to a reduction of work volume, doesn't matter how advanced a society is. This reduction needs to be dealt with. The way we are currently dealing with it is by artificially creating bullshit jobs to keep people busy.

Well, no, no, it does matter how advanced the society is, because in order to reach optimization, it requires economic development. If the goal is to "free people from labour" then naturally it would require an automated workforce. Unless you just mean the acquisition of capital, such as robots and whatnot to make production of goods cheaper and easier to produce. These still require labour, to operate and maintain.

Define "bullshit job" and "artificial shortage of goods"

You're thinking too binary there. It's not either fully automated or not automated at all, it's about how, for example, using a shovel gets things done faster than using just your hands. The time you save by using a tool instead of no tool is gained freedom. By optimizing the usage of tools people gain more and more freedom to do other things.

I see. Well yes tools do tend to make things easier. I guess I just thought you were talking about automation since this thread was about not working at all.

This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes

Jun 19, 2023 6:41 AM

#57

MizunoWaveRider

Offline

Feb 2014

480

StarfireDragon said:

MizunoWaveRider said:

StarfireDragon said:

MizunoWaveRider said:

StarfireDragon said:

MizunoWaveRider said:
What many people don't realize is that the goal of all technological and economical achievements is to free humanity from labour. In Iceland, thanks to factory ships, they are able to produce 4x the amount of fish with 1/4th of the necessary manpower compared to 30 years ago. 75% of all workers are not needed anymore to be 400% more productive, and it's no different with any other field.
In Germany, there are roughly 4 million jobless people and 1 million available jobs. You don't need to be a master mathmatician to see that even if everyone wanted to get a job there wouldn't be enough anyway. The reality that many conservative people don't understand or don't want to accept is that people being freed from labour is inevitable and a good thing and the system needs to be adjusted accordingly. Instead of wasting everyone's time creating unnecessary bullshit jobs just so people "earn their income", we should just give people a basic income unconditionally and let them decide their own path in life.

Yeah I think that's just a load of wishful thinking right there. Not every country is even remotely the same in terms of technological development, and so there will always be differences in terms of the outcome, and how capable they are able to implement automated production. The machinery necessary for a "fully" automated workforce to "free humanity from labour" is obscenely far from where we are as a society, and even if we ever reach that point, there will still need to be people to maintain those systems. All that does, then, is make the only remaining labourers elusively rare, and so we will be putting pretty much all of our eggs in one basket.

The figure of available jobs doesn't really mean anything, since there is never a fixed number of jobs in an economy, and people can remain jobless for any amount of time, assuming that they are all staying jobless is not exactly the case.

That's cool and all but what does this have to do with what I said? Optimization will always lead to a reduction of work volume, doesn't matter how advanced a society is. This reduction needs to be dealt with. The way we are currently dealing with it is by artificially creating bullshit jobs to keep people busy.

Well, no, no, it does matter how advanced the society is, because in order to reach optimization, it requires economic development. If the goal is to "free people from labour" then naturally it would require an automated workforce. Unless you just mean the acquisition of capital, such as robots and whatnot to make production of goods cheaper and easier to produce. These still require labour, to operate and maintain.

Statistics say there are more jobless people than available jobs.
Not having to work and not working are two different things. People working because they want to is great, people having to work bullshit jobs because of some artificially created shortage of goods is not.

Define "bullshit job" and "artificial shortage of goods"

You're thinking too binary there. It's not either fully automated or not automated at all, it's about how, for example, using a shovel gets things done faster than using just your hands. The time you save by using a tool instead of no tool is gained freedom. By optimizing the usage of tools people gain more and more freedom to do other things.

I see. Well yes tools do tend to make things easier. I guess I just thought you were talking about automation since this thread was about not working at all.

My main point was that technological and economical optimization is about freeing humans, not about defining a person's worth by how useful they are as work horses.
I said that because I got the impression that OP felt guilty for not being productive and made this thread to cope.

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I will not work or study. I want to pass time

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