Anyone else?

Dec 24, 2022 6:13 AM

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Oct 2019

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JaniSIr said:

Apolygon2 said:
those 2 were like one of the most important elements in the story, and the main reason for why I absolutely adore the world and ending of akudama drive.

Watched that like a year ago, it happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Apolygon2 said:
both are about a regular guy who joins a group of criminals. which you can say is a cliché, but I really don't think it is. name 3 other shows/movies with a normal guy joining a group of criminals in a cyberpunk setting, and I will except that it's cliché, but I don't think you can.

Tbh I don't think I could tell you 3 Cyberpunk IPs off the top of my head.
But if that counts Cyberpunk 2077 has V start out as one of 3 regular origins, becomes a merc, gets a job that goes sideways, with her friend dying, and then Keanu Reeves is implanted in her head.

Apolygon2 said:
_ you I got the message very wrong. that's actually a lot closer to what edge runners was trying to say. there are a few answers that I would have excepted but you gave me none of them. the show has a lot of angles, you could have said it's a commentary on the problem with an overcontrolling govern system. that whole shark and bunny thing was a massive, massive part of this, so I'm not surprised you both missed this and forgot about those guys.

there are other smaller messages, like how small acts can result in massive consequences, but those are more semi-explored themes, than they are messages. the one I mentioned is the only big one.

If "dystopian society is bad" and "young heroine abolishes the system" is the message you want to focus on, then it's basically just Hunger Games, or like half of the young adult genre...
I just took it as a set piece, like obviously dystopian is bad, it's literally part of the definition of dystopian.

Apolygon2 said:
_ how is that cringe. that's the whole point. she started as an ordinary person, but lied save herself by calling herself swindler. and at the end she called herself an ordinary person, to start a riot.

It's too on the nose. And the whole scene was trying too hard to be a tear jerker, it didn't work.
Also this one was after the show already pulled the "very dramatic hair cutting" cliché, and the weird matrix thing plot twist, that even the characters got upset about.

_here let me help you with cyberpunks:

ghost in the shell, cowboy bebop, evangelion, psycho pass, akira, the terminator, robo cop, ready player one, the matrix....and so much more

I haven't even seen half of these, and I didn't cherry pick them, they are what came up when I searched for cyberpunk anime and movies.

and as far as I know none of them have the "regular guy joins a group of criminals" "trope". like I said If it is a cliché you should easily find 3 like it. saying it is one, and then not having examples is them. you can't call it a cliché just because you feel like it is one. if it is one finding 3 like it should be easy.

_ this is kinda dumb, a dystopia can be a dystopia for a million different reasons. dystopia itself is not a specific "thing".

saying every dystopia is bad is as true as saying every sad ending is sad.

both are true statements, but the stuff under their belt can be completely different.

even comparing cyberpunk and akudama drive, their dystopia is a dystopia for completely different reasons. the difference is, cyberpunk doesn't fully dive into that, it juts kinda exists as a part of the world. but in akudama drive it's a huge part of the main plot and the story of the characters themselves.

the closest thing I can think of to this is the government of paradise in the first 3 seasons of aot, but even that is wildly different.

and again, in this case a massive part of the story revolves around it. it's not just another part of the setting.

_so.... a girl saying I'm a regular guy I'm not a criminal is cringe because It's on the nose? this is not symbolism, it's a god damn plot point, it can't even be on the nose. it makes 0 sense to say this.

if you said it about the cross thing I would disagree but I would at least see where you're coming from, this just makes no sense.

on the nose is not something you say about plot points. it doesn't work like that.

you use it for stuff like message, symbolism, and commentary, not the god damn story beat.

although it makes sense you would think considering how thought the message was " Something about ordinary people being able to do great things, good or bad, without needing to be born special, in the right circumstances."

which it really, really wasn't.

and on it being a tear jerker that didn't work, well, that's on you. can you point out anything about it that was bad?

I'm certain the reason it didn't work was simply because you weren't invested enough in her character or story to begin with.

I could show you an emotional masterpiece, if it's not for you and you don't get invested, you just aren't going to get emotional. I for one did get emotional at the end, and I don't think you can say anything about why it didn't work outside of "well it didn't affect me"

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Dec 24, 2022 7:08 AM

#52

JaniSIr

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Jul 2021

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Apolygon2 said:
even comparing cyberpunk and akudama drive, their dystopia is a dystopia for completely different reasons. the difference is, cyberpunk doesn't fully dive into that, it juts kinda exists as a part of the world. but in akudama drive it's a huge part of the main plot and the story of the characters themselves.

That's not really true...
The dystopia influences basically every event of Cyberpunk Edgerunners, from the his mom's death, across cyber psychosis being treated with gunfire, to private companies testing weapons of mass destruction in the city.
The difference is that a society that's corrupt to the core isn't as easy to defeat, as a totalitarian government.

Apolygon2 said:
_so.... a girl saying I'm a regular guy I'm not a criminal is cringe because It's on the nose? this is not symbolism, it's a god damn plot point, it can't even be on the nose. it makes 0 sense to say this.

Technically true, but making that into a big emotional speech was too much.

Apolygon2 said:
I'm certain the reason it didn't work was simply because you weren't invested enough in her character or story to begin with.

It did lose a lot of good will with those lame plot twists I have mentioned before.

Cucumber ice cream is the best!

Dec 24, 2022 7:37 AM

#53

APolygons2

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Oct 2019

6807

JaniSIr said:
That's not really true...
The dystopia influences basically every event of Cyberpunk Edgerunners, from the his mom's death, across cyber psychosis being treated with gunfire, to private companies testing weapons of mass destruction in the city.
The difference is that a society that's corrupt to the core isn't as easy to defeat, as a totalitarian government.

I mean yes, the world affects the plot, but that's not what I meant, I just explained it badly.

let's just it's not nearly as extreme breaking the society from top to bottom.

in edge runners the world affects the characters indeed.

but in akudama drive, it affects them true, but the characters also have a massive affect on the world. and the show actually dives deep into how this dystopia came to be.

also, my main point was that the dystopia's are completely different, even if you were right here, it would just mean cyberpunk also has a social commentary like that, which it really doesn't. it's actually just the setting in that one.

JaniSIr said:
Technically true, but making that into a big emotional speech was too much.

ok.... but why???

it wasn't nonsense, it wasn't out of character, it wasn't unconvincing that it worked...

what was the problem with it?

JaniSIr said:
It did lose a lot of good will with those lame plot twists I have mentioned before.

I mean fair enough but like as I said, that same episode had a much, much cooler reveal that went with that. and you somehow forgot that one and remembered the generic matrix one.

and even that isn't really "bad", it's just cliché. which makes it a generic plot point.

but I wouldn't even call it that, because it had a lot of original ideas connected to it, such as it's origin, or how they wanted to use the brain of 2 immortal children as an ageless computer.

Dec 24, 2022 8:19 AM

#54

JaniSIr

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Jul 2021

8289

Apolygon2 said:
but in akudama drive, it affects them true, but the characters also have a massive affect on the world. and the show actually dives deep into how this dystopia came to be.

That's not necessarily a good thing though. Is the dystopia really well thought out, if its easy to defeat?
Johnny Silverhand in Cyberpunk literally nuked Arasaka's HQ in the city centre, and achieved absolutely nothing.

Apolygon2 said:
ok.... but why???

it wasn't nonsense, it wasn't out of character, it wasn't unconvincing that it worked...

what was the problem with it?

As I said, it was too emotional. Like imagine a scale of how affectionate your characters are in a certain scene. If it's too dull, the moment will fall flat, but if it's over acted it'll be cringe.
For a series that tried to be serious, a more subtle approach would have been better.

Apolygon2 said:
I mean fair enough but like as I said, that same episode had a much, much cooler reveal that went with that. and you somehow forgot that one and remembered the generic matrix one.

and even that isn't really "bad", it's just cliché. which makes it a generic plot point.

but I wouldn't even call it that, because it had a lot of original ideas connected to it, such as it's origin, or how they wanted to use the brain of 2 immortal children as an ageless computer.

I wasn't a fan of those plot reveals either, it went too far into sci-fi BS to quick...
I really would have just preferred a good heist story.

Cucumber ice cream is the best!

Dec 24, 2022 8:35 AM

#55

APolygons2

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Oct 2019

6807

JaniSIr said:
That's not necessarily a good thing though. Is the dystopia really well thought out, if its easy to defeat?
Johnny Silverhand in Cyberpunk literally nuked Arasaka's HQ in the city centre, and achieved absolutely nothing.

you seem to have forgotten, this part of our argument was not about it being good or bad.

I was saying this show has this social commentary, and you said no it's just the setting. so I said why it isn't just the setting.

JaniSIr said:
As I said, it was too emotional. Like imagine a scale of how affectionate your characters are in a certain scene. If it's too dull, the moment will fall flat, but if it's over acted it'll be cringe.
For a series that tried to be serious, a more subtle approach would have been better.

we went through this one. it just comes down to how invested you were.

I don't think it was overacted at all. for how massive the stunt was in every sense of the word, it was just the right amount of dramatic. specially for a show this over the top.

JaniSIr said:
I wasn't a fan of those plot reveals either, it went too far into sci-fi BS to quick...
I really would have just preferred a good heist story.

not really, the show was building up those sci-fi elements slowly since episode 1. we already had immortal experiment children, trains that move at light speed, and fake moon that blew up in war.

I really don't think tv propaganda made to brainwash and control the population is any more sci-fi than the stuff that came before it. if anything it's on the more realistic side.

Dec 24, 2022 9:16 AM

#56

JaniSIr

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Jul 2021

8289

Apolygon2 said:
you seem to have forgotten, this part of our argument was not about it being good or bad.

I was saying this show has this social commentary, and you said no it's just the setting. so I said why it isn't just the setting.

But it only does a little more than Hunger Games with its arbitrary rules, where the big bad society's only purpose is to be defeated, and make the heroine look good.

Apolygon2 said:
we went through this one. it just comes down to how invested you were.

I don't think it was overacted at all. for how massive the stunt was in every sense of the word, it was just the right amount of dramatic. specially for a show this over the top.

Well, overacting also reduces my emotional investment.
Not even the Violet Evergarden movie gets away with 5 minutes of non-stop crying, despite the series being 11/10.

Apolygon2 said:
not really, the show was building up those sci-fi elements slowly since episode 1. we already had immortal experiment children, trains that move at light speed, and fake moon that blew up in war.

The immortal children are on the too much sci-fi BS list. (And yet again, didn't remember the other two. ><)

Apolygon2 said:
the heist started, it went on and it ended very cleanly and in a satisfying way. I guess you just wanted more of the same, but the heist that exists in the show is a full one, so it's not like you were robbed from experiencing a full heist because of everything else.

Full or not, it was pretty short.
Although at least it didn't go so overboard as the Great Pretender, heist 4 pushed everything too far.

Cucumber ice cream is the best!

Dec 24, 2022 9:36 AM

#57

APolygons2

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Oct 2019

6807

JaniSIr said:
But it only does a little more than Hunger Games with its arbitrary rules, where the big bad society's only purpose is to be defeated, and make the heroine look good.

I haven't seen hunger games, but I shouldn't need to explain why that description does not match the government here.

we aren't exactly following angles, and the executioners aren't at all what I would call comically evil.

if we're talking bad guy, most main characters here are that. both protagonists and antagonists.

the system is way more complex than that here, and I already said enough about it earlier to prove that. but I guess you would just call those:

JaniSIr said:
too much sci-fi BS

because that's not what you expected to get when you started watching it.

JaniSIr said:
Well, overacting also reduces my emotional investment.

are you serious?
it really isn't overacting.

it's a huge event in the show, so it is treated as one.

that's it,

it's not an npc death, it's THE god damn main character giving her final speech.

JaniSIr said:
Full or not, it was pretty short.

what I get from all this is that you wanted something, you got something else.

and you didn't like that.

so you looked at as many excuses to hate the series as possible.

edge runners and akudama drive are fundamentally extremally similar.

one can argue that one is better than the other, and it can easily go both ways.

but you have to realize that if you hate one and love the other, maybe, just maybe you aren't fully correct.
maybe the only thing making a difference is your own taste.

I can sit here and point out ever single thing that both of these shows do right, and every single thing that these show do wrong.

in the meanwhile you don't even remember half the stuff in one of them.

and you clearly had a case of coming in with the wrong expectation.

Dec 24, 2022 11:59 AM

#58

JaniSIr

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Jul 2021

8289

Apolygon2 said:
and you clearly had a case of coming in with the wrong expectation.

You can't pin that on me, the only way I could have known the story to go in those weird directions is if I had looked up spoilers beforehand.
It's not a 1:1 comparison, but people expected season 8 of Game of Thrones to be good, and to subvert expectations they made it bad, by making everyone act out of character.

Apolygon2 said:
we aren't exactly following angles, and the executioners aren't at all what I would call comically evil.

if we're talking bad guy, most main characters here are that. both protagonists and antagonists.

The executioners are ok, I mean they are basically "just" an extreme version of the police.
The matrix blob ruling class though...

Apolygon2 said:
it's not an npc death, it's THE god damn main character giving her final speech.

That much I do remember, and I have considered it when making my opinion.

Cucumber ice cream is the best!

Jan 8, 2023 2:44 AM

#59

Nano201102

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Jan 2020

Lmao Edgerunners sweeps Akudama Drive 20 times over.

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