Attack on Titan
Kami-sama-- said: ShanAsuna said: No, you see the major issue is, Zeke never explicitly said "THEY'RE ONTO US" when that would have been the most persuasive thing he could say to get his parents to stop. His parents were literally terrorists planning to uproot their government, why would him saying "They're onto us" cause them to completely turn against their revolutionary comrades and run away. If anything they would have fastened their plans and did something immensely more drastic, possibly causing more abuse for Zeke. Since his life was nothing more than a tool for the revolutionaries and his parents to use. That's a lot of inner thoughts that Zeke is supposed to have without it being shown to us... that's what I have a problem with. If there's a rationalisation for this apparent plot hole, it should have been shown to us... instead of having fans plug it with our mini-doujins into the characters' minds. |
ShanAsuna said: Lumiax said: Simply put, cuz they don't want to kill everyone outside of paradis. I mean its not that hard. At this point, everyone still thinks they're on Zeke's plan which doesn't involve killing everyone outside of Paradis. They don't even know about Zekes plan. They assume that Eren will use the founding titan to activate the rumbling and Zeke is helping him with that. |
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Borshta said: How do they know what zeke and eren are offering? do even anime only know how this is gonna turn out or what zeke and "eren" are offering? Did zeke and eren ever tried to recruit them? did marleyan titan shifters even know abt yeager brother's plan untill leberio happened? answer is no. It's like saying "join a revolution abt which you don't know anything, what purpose or is there even a revolution?" Tho this just explains stuff untill leberio. Now, they know abt zeke's betrayal, but do they still know what yeager brothers are trying to do? no. As for lesser than humans, yes they're treated very poorly but if you are an eldian in shithole called leberio where you aren't treated like more than scum since childhood, and then you got the chance to become the highest ranking officer possible for eldians. Your conditions improved little, atleast you aren't canon fodder anymore, your family can get proper treatment (grandpa yeager did get). It's not like their condition improved much but they atleast have more weight in their life now. And to throw away every achievement of yours for a false hope? they still don't know what's gonna happen, where're they safer? can eldia truly beat marley, titans aren't worth anymore in front of artillery? so can they jeopardize their family? If eldia got its ass beaten up by marley, they ded, their family ded. Now their family is atleast alive, and no they aren't totured or something. There're like a lot more different situations that can happen, why would they leave their stable lives (I mean whatever stable life they have), they themselves are going to die in 13 yrs leaving their families, what abt them then. Iirc we saw annie's dad is still treated like an honorary marleyan. Yeah onto the trusting her comrades, I don't think there is atleast a doubt that ofc she will trust her comrades. Now why would she defect? she saw a psycho basically massacre her town, kill her own people, she herself could've died, did anyone care? the other guy she trusted turned out to be the real betrayer, the one who planned it all with his whole squad. There're lot more trust issues this season, levi-zeke, zeke-eldian goverment, volunteers-eldia Trust issues are everywhere, either you make it or break it. She can't trust 2-psychos over her comrades. Well why didn't scouts just defected over to marley, cuz of eldia. It might be same for pieck, she still has leberio. And you have to remember gabi's anger when that guard got shot in leberio even tho he was marleyan. Last point, why would zeke and eren even accept her? do they have a reason? if they have why didn't zeke ask her before? what gives her confirmation that they wouldn't treat her even worse than marley or feed her to one of the yeagerist, nothing is out of possibility. If she did defect, and by chance eldia got defeated, her family would bear the consequences. More importantly if she is even alive after defecting. You're gonna see some of this stuff on a large scale next season. As for yelena she knows what she's getting into, and she's the leader of yeager simp nation. TL;DR Decisions carry too much weight when it's abt survival and family, and your decision can lead you to a worse situation then present. I think we have seen example of this in previous seasons. Forgot to mention this but even if pieck assumes that their plan is rumbling the world to save eldia (willy's speech), not everyone is an extremist who can live with killing the whole world to save themselves, genocide. I think this turned out a little biased, there can be arguments for differrent situation and then arguments for arguments, but perspectives. P.S. ignore typos, wrote this in a hurry These justifications seem better than the single line from Pieck, "I don't trust Marley, but I trust my comrades", but again none of them are really explored. In fact, your point about how Zeke (the highest ranking and most valued member of her comrades) betrayed them makes her line seem even more ironic... I mean all this ex-post facto reverse reasoning by fans is all well and good but they're like mini doujins we made up ourselves to fill up the holes in the story. Why can't these things be properly explored in the show itself? I mean, it's a show, it's not a game of Mad Libs. |
Lumiax said: ShanAsuna said: At this point, everyone still thinks they're on Zeke's plan which doesn't involve killing everyone outside of Paradis. They don't even know about Zekes plan. They assume that Eren will use the founding titan to activate the rumbling and Zeke is helping him with that. That doesn't really make sense because if Zeke has always been with Eren, they could have started the Rumbling already, from the Honorary Marleyans' POV. Why bother with the Attack on Liberio? |
| Its Eren's Birthday guys |
ShanAsuna said: Lumiax said: They don't even know about Zekes plan. They assume that Eren will use the founding titan to activate the rumbling and Zeke is helping him with that. That doesn't really make sense because if Zeke has always been with Eren, they could have started the Rumbling already, from the Honorary Marleyans' POV. Why bother with the Attack on Liberio? Thats right, Pieck even asked Eren the same, she assumes its cuz of Zekes absence, remember they don't know yet that Zeke has royal blood. She still assumes thats his goal but cuz Zeke isn't there he can't do it. |
ForsterbombMar 29, 2021 9:26 AM
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Lumiax said: ShanAsuna said: That doesn't really make sense because if Zeke has always been with Eren, they could have started the Rumbling already, from the Honorary Marleyans' POV. Why bother with the Attack on Liberio? Thats right, Pieck even asked Eren the same, she assumes its cuz of Zekes absence, remember they don't know yet that Zeke has royal blood. She still assumes thats his goal but cuz Zeke isn't there he can't do it. I don't know, really, I still think this is requiring the fans to write a lot of mini-doujins on our own, trying to rationalise the characters' actions. I feel the story could have made these things clearer, rather than leaving it to fans' guesswork. |
ShanAsuna said: Lumiax said: Thats right, Pieck even asked Eren the same, she assumes its cuz of Zekes absence, remember they don't know yet that Zeke has royal blood. She still assumes thats his goal but cuz Zeke isn't there he can't do it. I don't know, really, I still think this is requiring the fans to write a lot of mini-doujins on our own, trying to rationalise the characters' actions. I feel the story could have made these things clearer, rather than leaving it to fans' guesswork. Not everything needs to be spoonfed to understand a scene and sometimes "mini-doujins" as you call it are required for that. |
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Lumiax said: ShanAsuna said: I don't know, really, I still think this is requiring the fans to write a lot of mini-doujins on our own, trying to rationalise the characters' actions. I feel the story could have made these things clearer, rather than leaving it to fans' guesswork. Not everything needs to be spoonfed to understand a scene and sometimes "mini-doujins" as you call it are required for that. I think it's a stretch, trying to say that patching these holes would amount to "spoonfeeding"... earlier someone said something similar like "Isayama's fans are smart, they'll figure it out..." I am not really sold on this, I think it sounds like lazy writing with an "Emperor's New Clothes" excuse. If you point out holes in the story (that the Emperor has no clothes) then you're either not smart enough or you're asking to be spoonfed. I think I've watched a lot of animes and consumed fiction in a lot of other media, so I believe can tell when it's just lazy writing and plot holes. But sure, you're welcome to think different *shrugs* |
| Regarding Pieck. She has a father she cares about so she probably doesn't want to give him a death sentence by betraying Marley. If you think there has never been signs of her caring for her father before EP 16 then I recommend you rewatch episode 2 when she reunites with her father. Also she genuinely cares about her comrades in Marley as seen with her close relationship with the panzer unit. |
ShanAsuna said: Lumiax said: Not everything needs to be spoonfed to understand a scene and sometimes "mini-doujins" as you call it are required for that. I think it's a stretch, trying to say that patching these holes would amount to "spoonfeeding"... earlier someone said something similar like "Isayama's fans are smart, they'll figure it out..." I am not really sold on this, I think it sounds like lazy writing with an "Emperor's New Clothes" excuse. If you point out holes in the story (that the Emperor has no clothes) then you're either not smart enough or you're asking to be spoonfed. I think I've watched a lot of animes and consumed fiction in a lot of other media, so I believe can tell when it's just lazy writing and plot holes. But sure, you're welcome to think different *shrugs* You're too. Just saying that theres nothing wrong with the characters behaviour and with his writing style, it has always been like this. |
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| This actually is my favorite scene. Well, they dont betray Marley because its their homeland, their families are there, despite the racism they suffer, there is also good people in there that treat them as humans also. Would compare it to USA in the 30s.The world is not black and white, but complex and grey. Not to mention, they all are fed with propaganda since they are born and they feel its their "fault" for what happened. Just like she explained in the end, she doesnt believe in Marley but she believes in her comrades. To me its actually the best season, each scene had so much tension, and i actually loved the political stuff. |
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Taltibalti said: Regarding Pieck. She has a father she cares about so she probably doesn't want to give him a death sentence by betraying Marley. If you think there has never been signs of her caring for her father before EP 16 then I recommend you rewatch episode 2 when she reunites with her father. Also she genuinely cares about her comrades in Marley as seen with her close relationship with the panzer unit. Honestly, her line in the final season is the WTF moment for me. I think a lot of people in this thread came up with a lot of much better justifications for why she wouldn't choose to defect to the Yeager boys than that the stupid line "I don't trust Marley but I'll trust my comrades" with zero context. Especially, after she went through the whole exposition justifying why she WOULD defect. It made the last line sound like a... whaaa??? |
Viriathus said: This actually is my favorite scene. Well, they dont betray Marley because its their homeland, their families are there, despite the racism they suffer, there is also good people in there that treat them as humans also. Would compare it to USA in the 30s.The world is not black and white, but complex and grey. Not to mention, they all are fed with propaganda since they are born and they feel its their "fault" for what happened. Just like she explained in the end, she doesnt believe in Marley but she believes in her comrades. To me its actually the best season, each scene had so much tension, and i actually loved the political stuff. Don't get me wrong.. I welcome season 4 with all its explanations and political context after the long and arduous journey through the mists in season 2 and 3, trying to solve mystery upon mystery that kept accumulating for waaaaaaay too many episodes for my liking. But, I have to say... I find certain gaps in writing a little jarring, the characters' motivations a little awkward and requires too much suspension of disbelief. It's just.. a little off. Like I said, it felt like Isayama is very ambitious and he wants to make this epic political exposition and wanted the Kyojins to keep fighting each other, so he manoevred the characters into the position where he can get those expositions & fights rather than let the story develop organically by relying on a character's coherent goals/motivations and backstory. |
ShanAsuna said: Honestly, her line in the final season is the WTF moment for me. I think a lot of people in this thread came up with a lot of much better justifications for why she wouldn't choose to defect to the Yeager boys than that the stupid line "I don't trust Marley but I'll trust my comrades" with zero context. Especially, after she went through the whole exposition justifying why she WOULD defect. It made the last line sound like a... whaaa??? Y'know what? You're right. Right in that moment after they executed their surprise attack, with Eren transforming into his Titan ready to wreck everyone's shit, Galliard covering her and Gabi from his blast radius, and Marleyan airships dropping in for a full-on assault...Pieck should have just broken out into a full monologue, facing the camera, explaining her reasoning for why she didn't defect after all and how this was all just an elaborate plan to lure Eren outside. I'm sure Eren would've been considerate enough to stand by and just give Pieck the time she needed to say her piece. Now that would've been totally logical, reasonable and realistic character writing. Jesus, Isayama, what are you thinking? Hire this guy to be your writer ASAP! |
OrororurandoMar 29, 2021 10:22 AM
ShanAsuna said: Taltibalti said: Regarding Pieck. She has a father she cares about so she probably doesn't want to give him a death sentence by betraying Marley. If you think there has never been signs of her caring for her father before EP 16 then I recommend you rewatch episode 2 when she reunites with her father. Also she genuinely cares about her comrades in Marley as seen with her close relationship with the panzer unit. Honestly, her line in the final season is the WTF moment for me. I think a lot of people in this thread came up with a lot of much better justifications for why she wouldn't choose to defect to the Yeager boys than that the stupid line "I don't trust Marley but I'll trust my comrades" with zero context. Especially, after she went through the whole exposition justifying why she WOULD defect. It made the last line sound like a... whaaa??? Personally I think it makes sense. There are a lot of people that don't trust their country either but at the end of the day they fight for it because it has everything they know and love. I'm basing this off my friend in the military who has absolutely 0 trust for the government but would take a bullet for his friends who he has to shower naked with. Maybe your country is full of sunshine and rainbows where you can trust both your family and the government without any second thought. |
| Funny when an anime character has a different mindset than the fans do, so they call it plot hole because only thier way of thinking must be right and logicial. |
Stygian_Prisoner said: ShanAsuna said: Honestly, her line in the final season is the WTF moment for me. I think a lot of people in this thread came up with a lot of much better justifications for why she wouldn't choose to defect to the Yeager boys than that the stupid line "I don't trust Marley but I'll trust my comrades" with zero context. Especially, after she went through the whole exposition justifying why she WOULD defect. It made the last line sound like a... whaaa??? Y'know what? You're right. Right in that moment after they executed their surprise attack, with Eren transforming into his Titan ready to wreck everyone's shit, Galliard covering her and Gabi from his blast radius, and Marleyan airships dropping in for a full-on assault...Pieck should have just broken out into a full monologue, facing the camera, explaining her reasoning for why she didn't defect after all and how this was all just an elaborate plan to lure Eren outside. I'm sure Eren would've been considerate enough to stand by and just give Pieck the time she needed to say her piece. Now that would've been totally logical, reasonable and realistic character writing. Jesus, Isayama, what are you thinking? Hire this guy to be your writer ASAP! Surely it didn't have to happen in THAT scene... and it was also an artistic choice to end this season at THAT scene so we get zero context to her line. |
ReegrezSNK said: Funny when an anime character has a different mindset than the fans do, so they call it plot hole because only thier way of thinking must be right and logicial. I mean, if you're going to tell me a kid sold out his parents because they gave him too much pressure and didn't have time to play catch with him... you better have some good writing skills to make that believable? |
ShanAsuna said: These justifications are already present within the show though. There's no reason for any other information to be stated when you can literally put two and two together. This entire season was about preparing you with multiple perspectives of different people and why they do the things they do.Borshta said: How do they know what zeke and eren are offering? do even anime only know how this is gonna turn out or what zeke and "eren" are offering? Did zeke and eren ever tried to recruit them? did marleyan titan shifters even know abt yeager brother's plan untill leberio happened? answer is no. It's like saying "join a revolution abt which you don't know anything, what purpose or is there even a revolution?" Tho this just explains stuff untill leberio. Now, they know abt zeke's betrayal, but do they still know what yeager brothers are trying to do? no. As for lesser than humans, yes they're treated very poorly but if you are an eldian in shithole called leberio where you aren't treated like more than scum since childhood, and then you got the chance to become the highest ranking officer possible for eldians. Your conditions improved little, atleast you aren't canon fodder anymore, your family can get proper treatment (grandpa yeager did get). It's not like their condition improved much but they atleast have more weight in their life now. And to throw away every achievement of yours for a false hope? they still don't know what's gonna happen, where're they safer? can eldia truly beat marley, titans aren't worth anymore in front of artillery? so can they jeopardize their family? If eldia got its ass beaten up by marley, they ded, their family ded. Now their family is atleast alive, and no they aren't totured or something. There're like a lot more different situations that can happen, why would they leave their stable lives (I mean whatever stable life they have), they themselves are going to die in 13 yrs leaving their families, what abt them then. Iirc we saw annie's dad is still treated like an honorary marleyan. Yeah onto the trusting her comrades, I don't think there is atleast a doubt that ofc she will trust her comrades. Now why would she defect? she saw a psycho basically massacre her town, kill her own people, she herself could've died, did anyone care? the other guy she trusted turned out to be the real betrayer, the one who planned it all with his whole squad. There're lot more trust issues this season, levi-zeke, zeke-eldian goverment, volunteers-eldia Trust issues are everywhere, either you make it or break it. She can't trust 2-psychos over her comrades. Well why didn't scouts just defected over to marley, cuz of eldia. It might be same for pieck, she still has leberio. And you have to remember gabi's anger when that guard got shot in leberio even tho he was marleyan. Last point, why would zeke and eren even accept her? do they have a reason? if they have why didn't zeke ask her before? what gives her confirmation that they wouldn't treat her even worse than marley or feed her to one of the yeagerist, nothing is out of possibility. If she did defect, and by chance eldia got defeated, her family would bear the consequences. More importantly if she is even alive after defecting. You're gonna see some of this stuff on a large scale next season. As for yelena she knows what she's getting into, and she's the leader of yeager simp nation. TL;DR Decisions carry too much weight when it's abt survival and family, and your decision can lead you to a worse situation then present. I think we have seen example of this in previous seasons. Forgot to mention this but even if pieck assumes that their plan is rumbling the world to save eldia (willy's speech), not everyone is an extremist who can live with killing the whole world to save themselves, genocide. I think this turned out a little biased, there can be arguments for differrent situation and then arguments for arguments, but perspectives. P.S. ignore typos, wrote this in a hurry These justifications seem better than the single line from Pieck, "I don't trust Marley, but I trust my comrades", but again none of them are really explored. In fact, your point about how Zeke (the highest ranking and most valued member of her comrades) betrayed them makes her line seem even more ironic... I mean all this ex-post facto reverse reasoning by fans is all well and good but they're like mini doujins we made up ourselves to fill up the holes in the story. Why can't these things be properly explored in the show itself? I mean, it's a show, it's not a game of Mad Libs. Pieck would obviously trust her comrades more as those are the people she's put her life on the line for. Yes Zeke betrayed her, but did she really ever trust him? In this episode she stated that it never felt like Zeke was telling the truth, can a hint be any more obvious? She clearly had suspicions of Zeke after they initially invaded Paradis. Does this need to be explicitly stated and explored for it to be true? No lmao. Its blatantly obvious. She has no reason to suspect any of her other allies, thus her trusting her comrades in this situation makes sense. I don't see how it could be any other way, nor do I see how this is a plot hole. In my eyes, it seems like you're unnecessarily nitpicking a line that makes sense to most of the viewers. If it makes sense to most, how can it genuinely be a plot hole? If it works with the overarching story and her character, how can it be a plot hole? She literally stated she has a father who she wants to protect in the SAME episode, why would she throw that away and gamble on Eren and Zeke? These things aren't difficult to piece together. You as the viewer know and understand their plan thus you have a bias towards it. Since the main character is involved, you as the viewer deem this plan as something that'll most likely to succeed, which makes you question why others wouldn't want to join. What you're forgetting is that characters have different values and fight for different causes. In Pieck's eyes, her safety is guaranteed if Marley is able to obtain the founding titan, so there is no reason for her to switch up and join Eren and Zeke. Not to mention, Pieck doesn't even know wtf their plan is and probably doesn't care, why would she? Why would she put her faith in the two people responsible for killing so many of her own people in Liberio??? That in itself would make zero fucking sense. |
ShanAsuna said: Huh? Zeke would've been killed alongside them had he not took the initiative, surely you're trolling lmao.ReegrezSNK said: Funny when an anime character has a different mindset than the fans do, so they call it plot hole because only thier way of thinking must be right and logicial. I mean, if you're going to tell me a kid sold out his parents because they gave him too much pressure and didn't have time to play catch with him... you better have some good writing skills to make that believable? |
Taltibalti said: ShanAsuna said: Honestly, her line in the final season is the WTF moment for me. I think a lot of people in this thread came up with a lot of much better justifications for why she wouldn't choose to defect to the Yeager boys than that the stupid line "I don't trust Marley but I'll trust my comrades" with zero context. Especially, after she went through the whole exposition justifying why she WOULD defect. It made the last line sound like a... whaaa??? Personally I think it makes sense. There are a lot of people that don't trust their country either but at the end of the day they fight for it because it has everything they know and love. I'm basing this off my friend in the military who has absolutely 0 trust for the government but would take a bullet for his friends who he has to shower naked with. Maybe your country is full of sunshine and rainbows where you can trust both your family and the government without any second thought. Hmm, I think where I'm living, people generally have it pretty good. And the issue isn't with her line per se or there's a problem with the line if you look at it in isolation. You have to look at the context behind that line... she just gave a long exposition on why she WOULD defect to Paradis, and then she appears to have NOT defected, then Gabi asked her why... her response was that one liner. It's just really odd when you weigh that one liner against the whole justification for defecting she just gave Eren. I mean, some users have pointed out that in season 2 there may be more context to explain her motivations but having the season end on this note is just... less than satisfactory. |
ShanAsuna said: AnimeLeviathan said: Run away to where? Marley is an island... Are you saying he felt guilt-free as a kid or when he was older? Marley isn't an island, Paradis is, iirc. I think he looked pretty guilt-free both as a kid and an adult. Guilt free as a kid ? Have we watched the same anime ? Have you seen his face expression and how stunned and terrified he was after turning his parents in ? Also they never have been parents to him. They saw him as a tool for their revolution. Kids are easy to manipulate he still loved them because they were his parents but Ksaver was more of a father figure to him that's the reason why he didn't feel guilt later as young adult because Ksaver was his father and he hated Grisha. Also Zeke is probably the best character in AoT and there is still a lot to his character that will be shown in part 2 but so far he is still one of the best if you pay attention and understand all of his background. Also other kids are brain washed from young age. Have you seen any WW2 movies ? Jews and people oppressed by Germany were also like that. They had their communities and people they cared about in enemy nation. Also you have to understand that Zeke plans succeeding means destruction of Marley and the end of Eldians. You know maybe they don't support this plan. Not everyone is into genocide and elimination of nations. They fight for their own people, comrades and loved ones not for the racist higher ups and folks. |
Just because you are doing something for someone else doesn't make it right. Kindness and beauty can sometimes become cruel.  |
ShanAsuna said: ReegrezSNK said: Funny when an anime character has a different mindset than the fans do, so they call it plot hole because only thier way of thinking must be right and logicial. I mean, if you're going to tell me a kid sold out his parents because they gave him too much pressure and didn't have time to play catch with him... you better have some good writing skills to make that believable? Maybe in our world, I would start with the fact that for Zeke Grisha wasn't even his father and probably he hated him most of all people in the world. He sold them because the person which he treated as father told him to do so and there really was no other way out of this situation. |
hayzi said: Why would she put her faith in the two people responsible for killing so many of her own people in Liberio??? This would have been a much better justification (I said as much in my review as well), but that wasn't what came out... |
ShanAsunaMar 29, 2021 10:47 AM
ShanAsuna said: Wait you do realize that was an act, correct? The only truth she said in that entire dialogue was in regard to her father and of course that she doesn't like Marley.Taltibalti said: Personally I think it makes sense. There are a lot of people that don't trust their country either but at the end of the day they fight for it because it has everything they know and love. I'm basing this off my friend in the military who has absolutely 0 trust for the government but would take a bullet for his friends who he has to shower naked with. Maybe your country is full of sunshine and rainbows where you can trust both your family and the government without any second thought. Hmm, I think where I'm living, people generally have it pretty good. And the issue isn't with her line per se or there's a problem with the line if you look at it in isolation. You have to look at the context behind that line... she just gave a long exposition on why she WOULD defect to Paradis, and then she appears to have NOT defected, then Gabi asked her why... her response was that one liner. It's just really odd when you weigh that one liner against the whole justification for defecting she just gave Eren. I mean, some users have pointed out that in season 2 there may be more context to explain her motivations but having the season end on this note is just... less than satisfactory. Most of the shit she said was to get on Eren's good side to set up her trap. |
hayzi said: ShanAsuna said: Huh? Zeke would've been killed alongside them had he not took the initiative, surely you're trolling lmao.I mean, if you're going to tell me a kid sold out his parents because they gave him too much pressure and didn't have time to play catch with him... you better have some good writing skills to make that believable? I don't know man... apparently a lot of people are ready to send their parents to be killed off as giants. Zeke didn't even tell his parents explicitly that the Marley officials are onto them... he just said please stop, they didn't stop. Then, he decided to sell them out. The best reasoning I've seen thus far is Ksaever being the catalyst but still, why wouldn't he just tell his parents the officials are onto them? Why keep mum about that and only tell Ksaever? |
hayzi said: ShanAsuna said: Wait you do realize that was an act, correct? The only truth she said in that entire dialogue was in regard to her father and of course that she doesn't like Marley.Hmm, I think where I'm living, people generally have it pretty good. And the issue isn't with her line per se or there's a problem with the line if you look at it in isolation. You have to look at the context behind that line... she just gave a long exposition on why she WOULD defect to Paradis, and then she appears to have NOT defected, then Gabi asked her why... her response was that one liner. It's just really odd when you weigh that one liner against the whole justification for defecting she just gave Eren. I mean, some users have pointed out that in season 2 there may be more context to explain her motivations but having the season end on this note is just... less than satisfactory. Most of the shit she said was to get on Eren's good side to set up her trap. Yea, but they sounded like good justifications. Sure, it turned out to be an act but that surely means there's some other, STRONGER motivation that makes this "fake set of motivations" less compelling. That didn't came out in that final episode. We're left with this weird one-liner that ... honestly, I don't know what to make of it. |
ShanAsuna said: I mean its not like Grisha and Fritz were ever "parents" to begin with. This was practically a hostage situation in my eyes. Some shit you'd need to call CPS for LMAO.hayzi said: Huh? Zeke would've been killed alongside them had he not took the initiative, surely you're trolling lmao. I don't know man... apparently a lot of people are ready to send their parents to be killed off as giants. Zeke didn't even tell his parents explicitly that the Marley officials are onto them... he just said please stop, they didn't stop. Then, he decided to sell them out. The best reasoning I've seen thus far is Ksaever being the catalyst but still, why wouldn't he just tell his parents the officials are onto them? Why keep mum about that and only tell Ksaever? They mentally abused a child and only cared about him when it benefited them. When he was doing well for their plan, they showed him affection, but he whenever he was fucking it, well, as we saw, it wasn't great. Zeke was nothing but a child in this instance, and being persuaded by Ksaver is reasonable. You can't expect a child to think about this situation in a mature manner and think about every possibility he could've done to POTENTIALLY save himself and his parents. Nothing is every guaranteed. Even if he were to warn them, who's to say that would've stopped them? Maybe that would've led them to rush their plans since they know shit was going to hit the fan anyway. But these are things we can only speculate with logic. |
hayzi said: ShanAsuna said: I mean its not like Grisha and Fritz were ever "parents" to begin with. This was practically a hostage situation in my eyes. Some shit you'd need to call CPS for LMAO.I don't know man... apparently a lot of people are ready to send their parents to be killed off as giants. Zeke didn't even tell his parents explicitly that the Marley officials are onto them... he just said please stop, they didn't stop. Then, he decided to sell them out. The best reasoning I've seen thus far is Ksaever being the catalyst but still, why wouldn't he just tell his parents the officials are onto them? Why keep mum about that and only tell Ksaever? They mentally abused a child and only cared about him when it benefited them. When he was doing well for their plan, they showed him affection, but he whenever he was fucking it, well, as we saw, it wasn't great. Zeke was nothing but a child in this instance, and being persuaded by Ksaver is reasonable. You can't expect a child to think about this situation in a mature manner and think about every possibility he could've done to POTENTIALLY save himself and his parents. Nothing is every guaranteed. Even if he were to warn them, who's to say that would've stopped them? Maybe that would've led them to rush their plans since they know shit was going to hit the fan anyway. But these are things we can only speculate with logic. I just thought the whole exchange would have benefited with a scene of Zeke telling his parents the officials are onto them. And then maybe Grisha doesn't believe him, tells him the risk is worth it, even if the whole family dies, the greater cause is worth it - and that's the tipping point where Zeke decided to sell out his parents. I just thought the whole story would have been a lot fuller this way. Or perhaps there's a way to elevate it even further with more genius writing.. but instead, we're left with a question, "Why didn't Zeke just tell his parents the officials are onto them if he overheard the military officials?" |
ShanAsuna said: I mean that's simply kudos to Pieck then for saying something so believable and understandable. That just means her acting skills are on point haha.hayzi said: Wait you do realize that was an act, correct? The only truth she said in that entire dialogue was in regard to her father and of course that she doesn't like Marley. Most of the shit she said was to get on Eren's good side to set up her trap. Yea, but they sounded like good justifications. Sure, it turned out to be an act but that surely means there's some other, STRONGER motivation that makes this "fake set of motivations" less compelling. That didn't came out in that final episode. We're left with this weird one-liner that ... honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Anyway, lying is a crazy tool. Imagine a scenario where someone who is racist is trying to convince someone that they aren't racist and how that goes against their ideals. However, in the end, they're still racist. They could provide the most compelling arguments out there for why you shouldn't be racist, yet still be racist themselves. My point here is that in this scenario, the racist is lying to benefit their current agenda, or rather, their reason for lying. The same could be said for Pieck. Regardless of how believable or compelling her lies were, at the end of the day, she's doing it to accomplish her agenda. This type of shit happens in real life too with spies. Spies are people who invade countries for their own agenda. They make it seem like they're on your side and feel the same emotions you do, but little do you realize, they're lying for their own gain. In this situation, Pieck is literally a spy, or even bait. It is her job to make a believable case in order for her plan to work, regardless of how "compelling" it could be. I know my comparisons aren't the best, but I've been awake for like an hour so my brain isn't exactly up to speed, but I'm sure you'll get where I'm coming from. |
ShanAsuna said: In that sense, I can understand that. I can agree that it would've been a cool scene to witness and it could've made it "fuller". I personally just don't think it was necessary. Speaking up to your parents, or going against their word is a generally a shunned idea and it's why kids in our world today, especially those with Tiger parents (which is what Grisha and Dina literally parallel to), are too afraid to go against their parents ideals. It's literally a fear that doesn't allow them to speak up, at least as children. Regardless, if I was in Zeke's situation, with the same scenes, I would've sold out my parents too. Blood is not thicker than water, especially when that same blood doesn't give a fuck about you.hayzi said: I mean its not like Grisha and Fritz were ever "parents" to begin with. This was practically a hostage situation in my eyes. Some shit you'd need to call CPS for LMAO. They mentally abused a child and only cared about him when it benefited them. When he was doing well for their plan, they showed him affection, but he whenever he was fucking it, well, as we saw, it wasn't great. Zeke was nothing but a child in this instance, and being persuaded by Ksaver is reasonable. You can't expect a child to think about this situation in a mature manner and think about every possibility he could've done to POTENTIALLY save himself and his parents. Nothing is every guaranteed. Even if he were to warn them, who's to say that would've stopped them? Maybe that would've led them to rush their plans since they know shit was going to hit the fan anyway. But these are things we can only speculate with logic. I just thought the whole exchange would have benefited with a scene of Zeke telling his parents the officials are onto them. And then maybe Grisha doesn't believe him, tells him the risk is worth it, even if the whole family dies, the greater cause is worth it - and that's the tipping point where Zeke decided to sell out his parents. I just thought the whole story would have been a lot fuller this way. Or perhaps there's a way to elevate it even further with more genius writing.. but instead, we're left with a question, "Why didn't Zeke just tell his parents the officials are onto them if he overheard the military officials?" |
nakkki said: THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Y'know... Not even monster or berserk spoonfeed dialogue and situations like this....... Why do people suddenly have a problem with every little thing Isayama didn't sell out. We still try to analyze johan and Griffith till today because the creators didn't just tell us everything... Why is aot the story people have issues with now??? Vagabond is even hella vague compared to aot dialogue but our insertions make us see it fully.... Is it fun to nitpick aot hypocritically? |
| i just think it's funny when people try to dive in and nitpick on every little thing about a show to find a reason why they don't like it. Do it enough to any story and it falls apart. ShanAsuna said: hayzi said: I mean its not like Grisha and Fritz were ever "parents" to begin with. This was practically a hostage situation in my eyes. Some shit you'd need to call CPS for LMAO. They mentally abused a child and only cared about him when it benefited them. When he was doing well for their plan, they showed him affection, but he whenever he was fucking it, well, as we saw, it wasn't great. Zeke was nothing but a child in this instance, and being persuaded by Ksaver is reasonable. You can't expect a child to think about this situation in a mature manner and think about every possibility he could've done to POTENTIALLY save himself and his parents. Nothing is every guaranteed. Even if he were to warn them, who's to say that would've stopped them? Maybe that would've led them to rush their plans since they know shit was going to hit the fan anyway. But these are things we can only speculate with logic. I just thought the whole exchange would have benefited with a scene of Zeke telling his parents the officials are onto them. And then maybe Grisha doesn't believe him, tells him the risk is worth it, even if the whole family dies, the greater cause is worth it - and that's the tipping point where Zeke decided to sell out his parents. I just thought the whole story would have been a lot fuller this way. Or perhaps there's a way to elevate it even further with more genius writing.. but instead, we're left with a question, "Why didn't Zeke just tell his parents the officials are onto them if he overheard the military officials?" Zeke was raised his whole life to pretend to be loyal to marleyan and to be a warrior soldier. Additionally, since he knew that rebels who were discovered had their entire family's sent to paradis, he felt that the only solution he had left was to rat his family out and continue his mission. Also, just like any kid would, he confided and listened to the one person who he felt cared about him, Xavier. He didn't see his parents as parents, and he wanted to save his grandparents more. It wasn't exactly as easy thing to do, even then. They already had their names, telling his parents would probably not do anything. And grisha already is willing to risk his son's livelihood for the mission, and zeke very well knows that much better than anyone else. Bascically, Zeke was raised to be a spy more than he was raised to be a son who would confide in their parents. That's why he saw Xavier as his real dad. I think you should be a bit more open minded and accept that humans have different pyche. Just because they didn't do the exact thing as you might have done doesn't mean it's a plot hole. |
 ╭⋟──────────────────────╮ "All problems come from the human mind. In the mind, one's consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg. What lies beneath the surface... the subconscious... is far more vast." - Shun Aonuma ╰──────────────────────⋞╯ |
ShanAsuna said: hayzi said: I mean its not like Grisha and Fritz were ever "parents" to begin with. This was practically a hostage situation in my eyes. Some shit you'd need to call CPS for LMAO. They mentally abused a child and only cared about him when it benefited them. When he was doing well for their plan, they showed him affection, but he whenever he was fucking it, well, as we saw, it wasn't great. Zeke was nothing but a child in this instance, and being persuaded by Ksaver is reasonable. You can't expect a child to think about this situation in a mature manner and think about every possibility he could've done to POTENTIALLY save himself and his parents. Nothing is every guaranteed. Even if he were to warn them, who's to say that would've stopped them? Maybe that would've led them to rush their plans since they know shit was going to hit the fan anyway. But these are things we can only speculate with logic. I just thought the whole exchange would have benefited with a scene of Zeke telling his parents the officials are onto them. And then maybe Grisha doesn't believe him, tells him the risk is worth it, even if the whole family dies, the greater cause is worth it - and that's the tipping point where Zeke decided to sell out his parents. I just thought the whole story would have been a lot fuller this way. Or perhaps there's a way to elevate it even further with more genius writing.. but instead, we're left with a question, "Why didn't Zeke just tell his parents the officials are onto them if he overheard the military officials?" Bruh you keep mumbling the same thing. Zeke told them to stop because it's dangerous and they had intel in military so I'm sure they knew about the situation because of Grice and Owl. He was mentally and physically abused kid who wanted to be just a kid and play catch it ball with his father. He was forced to study and throw away his childhood as tool for revolution. He felt betrayed by his own parents yet he still "loved" them and didn't want to snitch them out as first reaction to Ksaver suggestions he said "i can't" or something like that. I still don't get what are you trying to achieve ? It was well written you are just hardcore nitpicking every single world said. You haven't even seen the whole Zeke story yet and his development. |
Just because you are doing something for someone else doesn't make it right. Kindness and beauty can sometimes become cruel. |
| I mean, a lot of your replies go along the lines of "I don't know, seems lame, wouldn't kids normally..." there's as many actions, reasons for actions and personalities as many people there are. Characters don't have to always act "correctly" or "right" in any given situation because neither do humans, especially not when trauma kicks in (I don't mean out of character, I mean screwing up or making bad decisions). There are justifications for Zeke's behaviour. You don't like them, and that's fine, but that doesn't make them *bad* justifications nor does it mean Zeke is acting out of character because he isn't. We haven't even seen much of Zeke after he sold out his parents so I don't think we can say much about how he felt after. Now in adulthood, why would he be remorseful when he views them as people who brainwashed him. He has no emotional attachment to them, at least not any positive kind. He *doesn't like* his parents. He automatically thinks Grisha brainwashed Eren too, that's how low he thinks of him. As for Pieck, pretty sure she realizes the situation of Eldians in Marley is crap but it's ALL she has ever known (unlike Yelena who was not born into this) and Eren hardly made a good impression on her. Pieck is clever, she doesn't trust him and she shouldn't trust him because Eren doesn't care about her or her people one bit and she knows it - he made that abundantly clear when he attacked her city and killed countless of innocent civilians right there in the *eldian* zone. This isn't Marley vs Eldians, this is Marley & Eldians living in Marley VS Paradis Eldians and the allies that reached out to them. You also can't expect characters to explain everything. Lots of shows/characters don't spell everything out for you but leave enough clues for you to pick up (personally I find it boring if everything is spelled out for me). I'm a manga reader so frankly I don't know anime-only watchers' views or confusions but unfortunately that's how it's going to be when the show just cuts off at a pretty much random time (I don't think this was a good place to stop). |
XyllinMar 29, 2021 11:34 AM
Xyllin said: I mean, a lot of your replies go along the lines of "I don't know, seems lame, wouldn't kids normally..." there's as many actions, reasons for actions and personalities as many people there are. Characters don't have to always act "correctly" or "right" in any given situation because neither do humans, especially not when trauma kicks in (I don't mean out of character, I mean screwing up or making bad decisions). There are justifications for Zeke's behaviour. You don't like them, and that's fine, but that doesn't make them *bad* justifications nor does it mean Zeke is acting out of character because he isn't. We haven't even seen much of Zeke after he sold out his parents so I don't think we can say much about how he felt after. Now in adulthood, why would he be remorseful when he views them as people who brainwashed him. He has no emotional attachment to them, at least not any positive kind. He *doesn't like* his parents. He automatically thinks Grisha brainwashed Eren too, that's how low he thinks of him. As for Pieck, pretty sure she realizes the situation of Eldians in Marley is crap but it's improving, it's ALL she has ever known (unlike Yelena who was not born into this) and Eren hardly made a good impression on her. Pieck is clever, she doesn't trust him and she shouldn't trust him because Eren doesn't care about her or her people one bit and she knows it - he made that abundantly clear when he attacked her city and killed countless of innocent civilians right there in the *eldian* zone. This isn't Marley vs Eldians, this is Marley & Eldians living in Marley VS Paradis Eldians and the allies that reached out to them. You also can't expect characters to explain everything. Lots of shows/characters don't spell everything out for you but leave enough clues for you to pick up (personally I find it boring if everything is spelled out for me). I'm a manga reader so frankly I don't know anime-only watchers' views or confusions but unfortunately that's how it's going to be when the show just cuts off at a pretty much random time (I don't think this was a good place to stop). Yeah also a lot of important Zeke stuff wasnt even in anime and is yet to come in future. Zeke is one of my favourite characters or maybe the one. His character arc and development is amazing and sad. But a lot of takes author of this thread said are just wrong. Kid zeke felt guilty free after selling his parents ? Like what ?! GUILT-FREE btw.      |
Just because you are doing something for someone else doesn't make it right. Kindness and beauty can sometimes become cruel. |
| "I'm disappointed with the last couple of episodes of AoT: the "not really" final season." Oh my god I thought it was a meme but people are complaining about semantics.... holy hell. |
| End Zionazism |
Mikasa said: "I'm disappointed with the last couple of episodes of AoT: the "not really" final season." Oh my god I thought it was a meme but people are complaining about semantics.... holy hell. people should start using their brains and understand its still final season its not season . In winter 2022 we will get Attack on Titan: Final Season episode 17 this is just production break |
Just because you are doing something for someone else doesn't make it right. Kindness and beauty can sometimes become cruel. |
| Both of them were well aware of the situations. And in the end Owl got Grisha exactly where he wanted. You can call it butterfly effect too. You think this guy didnt know about police getting close to cracking the organization ?   |
Just because you are doing something for someone else doesn't make it right. Kindness and beauty can sometimes become cruel. |
L0sMichal0s said: Both of them were well aware of the situations. And in the end Owl got Grisha exactly where he wanted. You can call it butterfly effect too. You think this guy didnt know about police getting close to cracking the organization ? He might have also been the one to tell the authorities about them so that he could get Grisha on that island and pass the Attack Titan to him. |
Fiveskies said: 7 or 8. I updated it at 7. As, I said I am in the same situation as OP but for different reasons.Peeti said: Don't worry. I also gave this season an 8. I am surprised that why did I give it such a high score. You have it an 8 , pretty shocking . So you put it in the league of hentai , generous of you . |
| "I think I wanted to attack something. Like betraying people or hurting people. And, well, it's not exactly nice, but hurting the readers too... In all honestly, I feel that's what I really wanted to do. For me, as a reader, when I think, "this manga will remain in my heart," it means, for example, it phenomenally hurt me: It's those kinds of experiences I'm after." - Pajime Hisayama (My favourite hurting author). |
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