Are we gonna ignore the double stupidity in levi vs zeke in the forest??

Discussion_123 said:
Bruh please give it a thought . Levi's decision can be argued but what Zeke did was perfect to his situation . He didn't had any Choice he had to try something . He was doomed either ways .

hamza121419 said:
i don't know how you can buy this lie of he has no choice buy to do so, he always had the choice because he is the one who planned everything, if you have a plan and there is an obstacle you didn't find a way to face it then you don't execute that plan from the beginning, zeke was going to face levi anyway because he let himself getting into paradise Island. It was obvious levi will be the one who takes care of him because of their rivalry and because of their weight in the battlefield. So having no plan B for levi is straight up suicide or stupidity because of what happened back in shiganshina. You don't sell me a character as strategist and you let him make stupid decisions even normal soldiers won't make.

YMN_KAT said:
@hamza121419 It's hard to take your post seriously when you're throwing the word stupid in there every two sentences. I'm gonna answer your questions as if you were genuinely trying to understand the characters' motivations behind their actions. And I'm not gonna assume you're mindlessly bashing.

Let's start with the fight in the forest. Zeke's plan was not stupid. Even if the dialog paints it like the sole reason Levi won't win—in Zeke's mind— is because it's his comrades that he has to kill, you should be smart enough to know that hesitation and the number of titans is what Zeke's counting on here. Sending 30 titans after him is nothing to joke about. That's more than Levi has ever taken at once. And this is probably Zeke's best bet. What is he gonna do otherwise? Throw a thousand titans at him??? We've seen that Levi was hesitant first; he didn't immediately kill the titan going after him on the tree. What did that cause? Levi almost dying by falling into the hand of another titan. We see Levi throwing away his humanity once again after realizing there's no point in trying to save his comrades as he's descending. Furthermore, Zeke wasn't wrong in assuming Levi cares about his comrades because Levi does in fact care about his comrades. Zeke saw that in Levi's eyes when he had him in Shiganshina. He saw his hesitation (in the hopes of saving someone) and trauma after the fight. Go back to the Shiganshina fight and look at Levi's eyes when he was thinking about Erwin. And notice that Zeke was looking him dead in the eye. I really don't know what you mean by Zeke being dumb here and acting out of character when that's the only thing he could do. So try to understand before going around calling everyone stupid. Actually, how about you tell us a better plan Zeke could carry out while being held captive and at multiple thunder spear points (if you will)?

Now, why did Levi shove that damned thunder spear in Zeke's abdomen? Was Levi that desperate and angry that he was blinded to commit such a horrible mistake? Ironically, yes. And it's not out of character for Levi at all to make such a mistake. In fact, he's consistently been this way to the point it became a gag. We've seen him do this kind of mistake multiple times now. Every time Levi lashes out, he loses his composure and ends up messing up. Look no further than the fight in Shiganshina; the one you've brought up. Levi forgets about a whole other Titan Shifter. Erwin explicitly says it in front of him "That titan has luggage. That quadruped type right there is an intelligent titan." And Levi freaking reacts! Season 3 part 2 episode 2, at 2:57. Go check. Not to mention, Levi doesn't even sense the titan rocking the ground, running full speed at him from behind. So no, that's not out of Levi's character.

He's done it with the Female Titan when he taunts her and scares her into her suicidal scream only to put the whole crew in danger, and throw away every chance they had of getting any sort of information. He did it again with Zeke. He taunts him by saying "Oh. Your legs are starting to grow back. Time to cut them up again." He is still, unfortunately, a human. He's been consumed by his rage and vengeance. He wanted to hurt Zeke in the most brutal way after having to "work" with him despite Zeke mass murdering his comrades. Not to mention having to sit in front of Zeke for a month without being able to do anything to him. We've seen Levi being vindictive multiple times. Go back to the uprising arc and reread some of Levi's moments. Levi might have not even been thinking about it when he rammed that thunder spear into Zeke's body. I love Levi and how he's written because he is a realistic character. He's not the badass, cold-blooded killing machine everyone assumes he is. He is a human. Isayama excels at humanizing his characters.

That being said, the thunder spear isn't that bad of an idea. Levi predicted the Yeagerists coming to save Zeke's ass correctly. The thunder spear in that position would've made things a lot more complicated for Zeke and the Yeagerists.

Plus, this is a spoiler but you've apparently read the manga (which confuses me even more)



So Levi's mistake wasn't the thunder spear; the mistake was being baited by Zeke into standing right next to the bomb.

Hope this isn't too long or complicated. I believe I've covered everything you've asked about. If you have anything else, I would be happy to explain. But try to be nicer next time.

hamza121419 said:

are you kidding dude, zeke's only chance was to do so? Are you trolling? What kind of drug do you take to believe this lie? He has 4 years to tbink of a plan to face levi even in one vs one and he sbould have thought of this because he will face levi no mattet what, levi is his biggest enemy but he didn't even think of a way to neutralize him. If he didn't have any other option as you said he shouldn't have executed his plan because that's suicide, you are getting to enemy territory and ther you have levi and you don't have a plan to counter him, this is straight up suicide. Zeke had several days in the forest to think only about how to get away from levi because the other points of his plan have already been thought of and in execution. He had plenty of time to come up with some thing other than assuming levi won't kill his comarades and that he will let him get away, this is stupid knowing the first encounter between the 2 in s3 p3.

About the thunder spear that was't needed he could have just went on slicing his limbs and he won't transform, why risk your life for something stupid, and Levi isn't the kind of person to do so.

Discussion_123 said:

who told you it was his plan that he would be taken this special " Hotel" . From that point could you tell me anything that is even half as good as Zeke's plan and something that would give him a chance against Levi in the forest of giant trees. Please think and reply fast . I am waiting for your plan . Even if someone told you 1 year prior that you would be kept with Fucking " Levi " in the " Forest of Giant Trees" tell me what will you do . You have everytime and resource to you let's see what could you do. Answer this and then call Zeke stupid .

hamza121419 said:
why would i come up for another plan to deal with levi, this is the writer's duty not mine. But here is the thing : if zeke didn't come up with a plan to counter levi why even execute a plan that is going to fail because you can't even neutralize your biggest threat, you like this one? Not doing a thing is always an option and in this case it's better than what zeke did.

Discussion_123 said:
sorry what you said . If Zeke did nothing he was going to be cannibalized either way . He was being surrounded by the soldiers and he had heard what Levi was saying to the soldiers . He had to do something and this was his plan B if Levi decided to hunt him which shouldn't have happened but Levi decided to do it but still Zeke was prepared for it says everything. Zeke knew he could not win against Levi so he made him tried to fight against his own comrades and tried to run away in the mean time but what could anyone do against a monster named " Levi " . It's like saying you have to fight bare hand against a Titan . What you could do is nothing but still Zeke's plan still gave him a bit of a chance .

Now listen I don't like calling people stupid but you are really stupid . First thing you didn't payed attention and then you are saying than best thing is to sit there and do nothing. I don't know what to say to you. Hell you are so stupid that you yourself cannot come up with a plan that is even half as good as Zeke's and you were calling Zeke fool . The one who is a fool is you.

If you had just asked why this happened I might have talked politely with you but instead you were calling it a plot hole without complete information so next time check it

Cordinox said:
To be fair, I agree with some of your criticism. I was also scratching my head wondering why Levi would attach the thunder spears on Zeke knowing damn well that he could potentially kill both of them in the process. And that Zeke, who has been planning this rebellion for the last 4 years, would suddenly go out of his way to try and escape the biggest threat to his plan in the first place. However.

1) The situation is different now. In this case, Zeke is so scared of Levi that he'd go by any means to get rid of him, and because he did not know the kind of life that Erwin, Levi and Eren had to live, he ended up screwing his own plans over when Levi proved him wrong that he couldn't kill his comrades. The thing is, Zeke might be a Warrior, but by no means is he a great strategist like Erwin or Armin. He might've been crafting his plan for over 4 years now, but the unavoidable fact is that spending 4 years with the Eldians in the walls isn't enough to uncover the mystery of the Ackermans. Sure, knowing they were once a tribe who protected the Eldian king is grand and all, but the whole fact is that Levi has superhuman strength and agility.. and let's be real, while Zeke's plan could've gone a million other ways,

Blocky-producer said:


i was made pretty clear that you cant transform when you body is too focused on healing. he could have cut off his limp and arms.

hamza121419 said:
you are the stupid here i'm sorry because you cant even understand whati said, i said he shouldn't have executed his plan at all, i mean he should have stayed in marley spend his remaining year or make and end to his pathetic life he hates. Work your mind a little bit before insulting people. What did zeke expect? To be treated like a friend, given a 5 stars hotel and let him do whatever he wants in paradise. H is their biggest enemy who killed thousands of their people, so they will give him the harshest treatment. And obviously it will be levi who will take care of him because of their rivalry and because he is the most fitting to do this role, reiner must have told him that it was levi who took care of eren's titan back in season 1 because he is the strongest soldier and not to mention levi and zeke had both the other in the eye especially levi. So yeah it was obvious zeke would encounter levi at some stage and should have thought of the worst senario which is one vs one against levi, if he can't think of this should stay in marley just end his life.

Discussion_123 said:
really I don't have words for you . Are you so stupid to think that he would end his life there rather than trying . Do you think Zeke fears to die . He was been through pain worse than death . I get it that you don't use logic don't you .

It is clear that there plan was to meet at shinganshina and Eren would come for the rescue of him . Hence he was asking for Zeke's location. How much of a monster Levi might be he can't take two shifters with 30 mindless Titan with one having the War hammer Titan .The problem that happened here was Levi deciding to kill Zeke . Which should have happened but Zeke still had a plan B and still would have successfull if not for the monster Levi . I don't get how is Zeke stupid here . Or you think Levi is that OP that Zeke with not take a chance against Levi with devil of paradise 'Eren Yeager' by his side .


Also it was made clear that they couldn't kill Zeke either so there is in no way shape or form Zeke's plan stupid . It is a very well thought out brilliant pla

Catalano said:
1. Zeke is incompetent in military tactics, it was established back in s3p2, he's just no good
2. I think you're referring to Levi immobilizing Zeke with the spear, yeah, it's stupid, when I saw it, in my mind I was "oh, but what if Zeke will blow it up?" I don't think he ran out of blades.

Still, the forest fight was ok, Levi was just too good and Zeke is not a good soldier, the beast titan is very weak

ProneBoneJones said:
The 2 mistakes happen due to a culmination of a multitude of different things but I don’t think any of it is out of character for either Levi or zeke and actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

I’ll start with Zeke first. While it is true that Zeke is incredibly smart, he isn’t faultless and has many weaknesses that severely hurt him, the biggest and most damaging of these faults is his ego. Zeke has been shown to be very egotistical at moments and one of the most prominent ways that this is expressed is his tendency to declare his own victory before he’s actually won, we see this in s3 pt2 when Zeke says he’s had a “perfect game” and rants about how useless the suicide charge is before the charge has even ended and we also see this in Zeke and Levi’s most recent fight when he declares his victory over Levi while running away when he has no clear way of telling whether he’s actually beat him or not. Another way he expresses his ego is through his tendency to try understand people on a better level than even they do, we see this in season 3 part 2 when zeke talks about how the king stole the eldians memories and because of that they all believe in foolish things and will all eventually wind up charging to their own deaths just like the scouts did towards him but how could he possibly know this, there is no possible way he could predict the actions of every eldian and claiming that all the eldians will follow the same fate as the scouts is a very bold claim to make as you would have to know how each and every eldian thinks in order to claim that as an absolute truth. We also see this again in Levi and Zeke’s most recent fight where he tries to claim Levi cares too deeply about his comrades in order to kill them as titans, this conclusion actually has a bit of truth to it, Levi does in fact care about his comrades and strives to keep them alive as much as he can but what zeke fails to realize is Levi is not the type of person to pointlessly throw his life away because he’s unable to control his emotions towards his comrades. In conclusion Zeke’s plan failed because of his inability to accept that his plan could fail and that his deductions about Levi could be wrong, while Zeke’s plan at a fundamental level is actually pretty smart, it lacks any escape routes or backup plans for him to fallback on in case it goes wrong, this can all be traced back to Zeke’s ego which most likely prevented him from thinking of any other outcome other than victory while making the plan because in his mind he had Levi perfectly worked out and there was no possible way he could lose. In short Zeke massively underestimated Levi and overestimated himself.

Now to talk about Levi. In Levi’s case it’s actually quite ironic since the main reason his plan fails is actually what Zeke needed in order for his plan to succeed earlier in the forest, while zeke underestimated Levi’s abilities to control his emotions Levi actually falls victim to those very same emotions and fails to control them against Zeke which ultimately clouds his judgment in the end. We all know that Levi has a deep hatred for Zeke and for good reason, he was responsible for the deaths of many of his comrades but most importantly he was responsible for the death of Erwin, the man Levi respected the most. Levi has been wanting to kill Zeke for a long time and the only reason he hasn’t is because Zeke is an important figure that paradis needs, even still Levi seems dedicated to making Zeke suffer in order to make him pay for what he did to Erwin and his comrades and this is made very clear when Levi cuts up his legs in the cart. Levi could’ve simply cut both his legs off in one quick slice but instead he diced his legs to pieces with multiple swings in order to make him experience the most pain possible, this leads me to believe the reason why Levi does the whole thunder spear thing is to play a sick game with Zeke in order to make him suffer even more, to inflict mental torture on him by giving him a sense of hopelessness by putting him in a situation that no matter what he does he dies anyway. I also think Levi was underestimating Zeke just like Zeke did to Levi earlier, levi didn’t believe Zeke would willingly pull the cord since Zeke has been very dedicated to his plan (euthanasia plan) and Zeke’s survival is integral for that plan to succeed.

Plafer said:


That makes a lot of sense, there's just 1 thing that I don't really agree with. Why would levi not believe zeke would pull the cord? You said here it's because zeke is very dedicated to the euthanasia plan but levi at that point in time knew nothing about the plan.

Xilver said:

Now that would legit be stupid.