Do you think freedom of religion is a good thing?

TheBrainintheJar said:
The right to believe and the right to act on those beliefs are different things.

Yes, we should allow people to believe what they want. You're allowed to be a misogynist, but you're not allowed to hurt others based on that belief.

Clebardman said:


Yeah, pretty much that. I'm all for the freedom of beliefs, but the freedom to form factions and mine secular states from the inside? No thx.

TheBrainintheJar said:


What do you mean by 'mine secular states from the inside'?

Clebardman said:


*turns on TV*
News are about: islamism in France, the jews are scared in France, christians are still protesting against gay mariage 4 years after. My government calls it a secular state, I call it a cheap whore spreading her legs for every sect.

Masked_Mantis said:
Well it's iinteresting to me because Christianity had it's violent reformation from the Catholic church, and it's now got several churches all different yet all having the same core idea that you should follow Jesus and worship him as the one god, so it's still a pre monotheism that allows you to believe whatever you want about Christianity.

I'm interested if people still think it's a good thing that people believe Islam is the truth. Their opinions surely state otherwise.

TornadoTheDragon said:


Well w/e the case may be. I mean any religion on its own doesn't do anything. Its like any other social tool.



What's the problem in believing in Islam or any other religion? Well depends who you ask. Also when, where & the particular environment those individuals are in. There is no one answer.

TheBrainintheJar said:


The problem with believing in Islam is that it's full of misogyny and racism.

But until someone explicitly says something misogynistic or racist,I wouldn't accuse them of that.

TornadoTheDragon said:


Before we go on. Where have you gotten your information about Islam? I just want to make sure we are on the same page here.

On your 2nd point fair enough.

TheBrainintheJar said:


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/women-worth-less.aspx

I'm not interested in 'this site is anti-islam so it's wrong'. There are plenty of arguments here.

TornadoTheDragon said:


Well tbf if you are getting your information form a site like that instead of historical sources then this conversation won't really bring anything worthwhile.

You do know that site is associated with Daniel Greenfield? Who is a prominent Zionist? That site isn't even credible. It associates gang violence with your run of the mill terrorism.

I legit mean how many historical texts/books (translated) or otherwise you have actually read from pre-Islamic to modern for Arabia, India, Persia, China, etc.

I have far from read everything there is to. But whenever someone starts saying one religion is blank whether Christianity being bashed by modern secularists, or Islam by so called critics.

Its interesting b/c in both cases they only try to make each respective religion look bad in the current social environment. Nvm the fact both religions (among every other) have been adjusted by the local populace for well over a millennia; from everything (legal issues, economic practices, social structures, etc.) .

Also you seem to be forgetting that for pretty much all religions there are things recommended & non binding: i.e. inheritance. In some cases it is recommended a male get 2x as a female or only the eldest son receiving all of the inheritance, or only males receiving inheritance, or males getting 25% more than their female counter parts, or in other cases both sides getting equal. On another note many rules for receiving inheritance has more to do with birth order, social standing, & accomplishments (in cases of Persia & China for example); rather than any gender/sex per se.

Well that site is a propaganda site. That its owners & associates have their own agendas. Just like Fox News, Saudi Arabia, America, Israel, Turkey, & so on. And if you actually spend some time going through their arguments & retracing it you will find how BS they are. Just like how the Saudi government does in many cases.

You have to remember that terrorism is a profitable business for many interested parties. So they do push a preferred narrative. Saudi, Israel, America, Turkey, etc.

TheConquerer said:
To think that abolishing religion would eliminate stupidity and extremism is an act of stupidity and extremism

Ivisire said:


you said it....!!
but y is @masked_mantis curious in bizare topics?

Masked_Mantis said:
So why is it Christians turn the other cheek when someone draws Jesus?

Clebardman said:


They don't. Charlie Hebdo was sued more often by angry catholics than jews or muslims. Christians don't like drawings either.

Masked_Mantis said:
It's because we see two different Islams, and I can see now how islamist apologists (which a large portion of "moderate" Muslims are) and political correctness will ruin everything.

Moderates will ruin everything because they still believe in an ideal society sharia will work. They keep saying the punishments sound brutal but they're only deterrents. Well yeah homosexuality is punishable in sharia too, so the message is "everyone will be scared to be gay so they'll live in hiding". It's not a good message.

Beat your wives, that's another funny one. The moderates don't even deny that anymore, they just say "beat them lightly but then refuse to sleep with them". And this is the successor to the gospel?

That's Islam, it's also why wahabism is so appealing. It's a literalist Islam.

To call Islamism or extremism a minority is what will allow the problems we see to happen and grow.

Drawing a picture of Muhammad causes not only your own country but others to call for your attack. From what I've seen there's nothing in the Quran that says you shouldn't draw Muhammad, and it even says Muhammad was mocked several times and ignored them. So why is it Christians turn the other cheek when someone draws Jesus?

Masked_Mantis said:
Were they ever attacked physically? Was there ever a call for Christians to attack Hebdo?

Clebardman said:


They don't. Charlie Hebdo was sued more often by angry catholics than jews or muslims. Christians don't like drawings either.

ZA_WAYD said:


Charlie Hebdo was actually prosecuted for making an anti-semetic joke at the expense of the president's son, he was hated and rediculed within the industry ever since, the poor guy couldn't even include jews in his last work because of it.

RIP charlie
#JeSuisCharlie

Clebardman said:


I'd be okay to debate this with you, but your ignorance shows quite hard in that post. "the poor guy"? There's noone called Charlie bro, but I guess I shouldn't expect anything from an idiot who shits on a magazine he never read.

Ivisire said:


haha....well said ...i must say..:D (y)

Ivisire said:


hmm....i see, u r in quiet a muddy pond......

but i wish to make this clear, why are you asking all this purpose-related topics?

is it that u have nothing to do that you wish to spend time criticizing others, or is it that u are seeking an actual conversation?

if its the later, i would be glad to join.....provided u r serious, and in the right mood, and also, do not reach up for an adrenaline rush everytime a new idea is presented in front of you,.......not that i think u would, but these r the conditions, as iam short of time ryt now...

also, an FYI, i dont think ur understanding of my viewing of islam is accurate, since i have been here for only 2 days, and since i havent ssaid much.....

so waiting for ur reply.

Masked_Mantis said:

In fact one of the most interesting things I heard was from k0k0 in another thread saying she knows Muslims who are more conservative in western countries then they are in Islamic countries. If that doesn't highlight something terribly wrong I don't know what will.

Masked_Mantis said:
It's because we see two different Islams, and I can see now how islamist apologists (which a large portion of "moderate" Muslims are) and political correctness will ruin everything.

ZA_WAYD said:

I want to reply to you but i didnt understand anything aside from the petty juvenile slander that you threw in my face

Clebardman said:


If you dislike petty slanders, keep your ignorance for yourself next time Charlie is brought up. Talking shit and spreading misinformation about people who died because they were drawing, sure. Just like the pope, you're using your ignorance to justify the killing of these people (yeah, the pope, with his beautiful "if someone insults my mom, I'm going to punch him" quote).

Ivisire said:
and this is what made me think u wr commenting on my undrstnding of islam.

Masked_Mantis said:
No, I mean there literally is two Islams, and one is very dangerous and a constant problem. But the damage political correctness by a country can cause can be severe and cause islamism to spread. It's hard to tackle because many come across as "moderate" who don't even preach hate, but they'll be aplogists for sharia law and wahabi interpretations.

When a country allows this, is attacked by it's left wing politics as racist, is treated unfairly by it's government pumping out pro Islam propaganda it's not a good outcome. You just need to look at the numbers of western Muslims who go to Syria to see that how the west is scared and treats Islam specially is a real threat.

And that's when there's a problem with "moderates" too. Imagine the number that didn't leave to go to Syria but fights democracy from their country. The Muslims who have influence in western countries aren't moderate, yet their funded and are in positions to convert and be the face of Islam. How do you see your interpretation of Islam spreading?

Clebardman said:


They don't. Charlie Hebdo was sued more often by angry catholics than jews or muslims. Christians don't like drawings either.

TheBrainintheJar said:


Suing and shooting people up are very different.

Madcatt said:
"Listen up, Simon. Don't believe in yourself. Believe in me! Believe in the Kamina who believes in you!" Kamina.

Clebardman said:


Suing on purpose when you know you're going to lose just to make a fuss about it and polarize the opinion? The religious lobbies here in France spent the last decades creating an oppressive climate where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are hijacked to justify hate speech and interfere with social debates. And the reactions we had here in France after that attack clearly show that they succeded in destroying a magazine's reputation with baseless attacks and "muh feelings" logic, effectively paving the ground for a terrorist attack. The terrorists were french, this was a french problem that was only made possible by the shitty climate religions created here.

You're not exactly in the best position to sell me the "all other religions are peaceful" either. Tell me more about how Israel, backed by their christian ally, are spreading peace over the middle east.

TheBrainintheJar said:


Tell me more about the terrorist Israel who sends Palestinians terrorists to hospitals.

Also, no, Israel is not a religious country (Although we do have some issues with it). It is a secular-national country. Zionism, at its root, isn't religious. Hertzel was an atheist.

I don't understand how Christians suing a magazine (not a violation of human rights) leads to Muslims shooting up the magazine (A violation of human rights). Incidents like Charlie Hebdo are common. It's not the first time Muslims overreact to parodies and satire of them.

spinninground said:
I believe everyone should arm themselves and rampage until only the true believers are left standing. Or develop mind-control technology in order to forcibly convert the heathen masses, but get some zip ties and duct tape just in case.

What, is that not a good alternative to religious tolerance? All individuals already have the ability to choose, and the state can only oppress and punish the expression of those beliefs. As with all "freedoms" granted by the state, religion cannot legally be used to justify harming others.

Clebardman said:


Israel isn't a religious country, yeah, the USA aren't either. I don't think anyone will notice as long as they keep saying "god bless america" before carpet bombing a random eastern country. And I don't think being muslim is the reason why those people blow shit up either. French resistants weren't muslims yet they loved explosives. IRA members weren't muslims, yet they loved explosives. It's as if oppressed population were fighting back, crazy, huh?

Now back to our subject, yes, "moderate" christians, muslims and jews spent 20 years trashing Charlie Hebdo, making it seem okay to baselessly attack someone because your religion needs to be respected more than freedom of speech. It was 100% a french problem, and the only reason why it was muslims and not christians or jews, is because we're not parking our christians or our jews in ghettos with 50%+ unemployment.

I must also say I don't understand how your country can believe so hard in the ghettos+wall solution to deal with the "lesser" humans around your borders. Seems ironical and kinda disgusting to me.