Sub vs. Dub

OmNomNomxD said:
and plus if something weird is being said in the anime , your parents won`t be able to understand it if they`re just wandering around while you`re watching it . :D

mugenwalker said:
Most (about 99%) of anime are better to watch in subs, as the general voice acting of the Japanese are way superior to that of Americans.

There's just way more emotion flowing out of Japanese VAs, while from Americans, it's just like as though they're reading the script, which takes the moment out of most anime.

Asako said:


Lucky Star is a terrible example. They left honourifics in the dub. One of the most retarded decisions ever made. Much like Chiyo-chan in Azumanga dub. Uguu.

Onibokusu said:
Ah, the Azu dub.

So, before anyone brings up Osaka, a word of advice: She's a southerner.

Redfoxoffire said:

I just plug in headphones.


Unless you know Japanese you cannot claim this. Fact is, Japanese voice acting in general isn't much, if any, better than American voice acting. I don't know Japanese myself but just about everyone I know who does can confirm that.


The fact that you'd say something like this makes it obvious you haven't seriously watched an English dub in quite a long time. You sound like another bandwagoner.

Asako said:


I have no real issue with the accent. I just find it irksome they left -chan in the dub. I'm rewatching Azumanga through dubbed at the moment and it's actually not too bad. Took a while to get used to, but Chiyo-chan is still just wrong. Dubs should remove honourifics.

mugenwalker said:
You can argue the dub has made it better. But the truth of the matter is, it's completely different.

And dubs like Clannad, Evangelion, and Higurashi are just a disgrace compared to the original.

The overall quality of VAs in Japan are also generally superior to those of VAs in the US. Sure there are great American VAs, like Crispin Freeman or Troy Baker, as they are able to convey the emotions a character may feel smoothly. However, the majority of American VAs are far inferior to the two. Johnny Young Bosch, for example, can't VA for shit. VA is acting, and if you have bad actors, then your whole movie is gonna be bad. If you have one amazing actor but the rest of the cast is terrible, you will end up with a mediocre movie at best. But if you have an awesome cast of actors, you will end up with an awesome movie. Japan has awesome VAs, which is understandable, seeing as anime is literally a part of their culture. Which is why generally, the overall quality of Voice Acting will be superior. Most Japanese pour their heart and soul into their work, like Norio Wakamoto or Tomokazu Sugita do, while as most Americans, like Johnny Young Bosch, don't seem to neither the fervor nor the dedication we can sense from most Japanese voice actors.

The point is, there are great dubs. But that doesn't mean dubs > subs.

dubbed anime just doesn't have the same feel to it as subbed anime will.

Redfoxoffire said:
but Clannad's dub is just fine imo.

ARXLaevatein said:


Clannad's dub has actually been one of the worst dubs I've heard in recent years. Kyou sounds like a 30 year old ruff n tuff woman, and Tomoyo isn't much better. Youhei sounds like he's 12. Tomoya? Bad stuff, too. His voice is way too deep to match his character. Basically, every character either sounds too young or too old. Oh, and you know you have a lazy as hell dub when they can't even pronounce names correctly. Seriously, Fujibayashi becomes Fujibashi? Either the translator is a hack, as he can't get one name down right on the script, or the actors are hacks, as they can't get even get a frickin' name right. I seriously doubt anyone can call it a "just fine" dub, considering how little effort was put into the dub.

DoubleDango said:
I lol'd.

ARXLaevatein said:


Clannad's dub has actually been one of the worst dubs I've heard in recent years. Kyou sounds like a 30 year old ruff n tuff woman, and Tomoyo isn't much better. Youhei sounds like he's 12. Tomoya? Bad stuff, too. His voice is way too deep to match his character. Basically, every character either sounds too young or too old. Oh, and you know you have a lazy as hell dub when they can't even pronounce names correctly. Seriously, Fujibayashi becomes Fujibashi? Either the translator is a hack, as he can't get one name down right on the script, or the actors are hacks, as they can't get even get a frickin' name right. I seriously doubt anyone can call it a "just fine" dub, considering how little effort was put into the dub.

Redfoxoffire said:


You're right. I can't understand wtf they're saying. That's why I rely on subs. However, good acting is never lost through the language barrier. Shitty acting is, but great acting that convey emotions to their full extent is never lost in the language barrier. In a similar sense, most of the Japanese voice acting is carried out in such a way that the emotion of the characters can be fully felt, and that passes through the language barrier. Like in the Cannes International Film Festival, in which the judges don't know wtf they're saying, but the judge based on the actors' performance and role in conveying the emotions their characters are feeling throughout the movie.

DoubleDango said:


I lol'd.

mugenwalker said:
You're right. I can't understand wtf they're saying. That's why I rely on subs. However, good acting is never lost through the language barrier. Shitty acting is, but great acting that convey emotions to their full extent is never lost in the language barrier.

Redfoxoffire said:
It's not perfect, that's for sure, but I feel it gets the job done. Kyou is the only voice I had a real issue with, she definitely sounded too old. I didn't hear too much of Tomoyo (I only watched about 5 episodes) but from what I did hear I thought she was fine. I don't know why everyone thinks Tomoya sounds too old, I thought he sounded perfect for the kind of character he is (high school delinquent), or is everyone too used to all anime high schoolers looking and sounding like they're 13? I knew people would hate Greg Ayres as Sunohara, but I thought it was absolutely perfect; that was the one piece of casting I just knew would be perfect even before a dub was announced (He was Kitagawa in Kanon, who's like the exact same character).

And then other castings were also great, like Luci Christian as Nagisa (epic voice actress), Brittney Karbowski as Ryou, and even parts that I didn't hear too much of like Sanae, Akio, and Kotomi sounded pretty well done. I think most of the hate is coming from this show getting very popular before an English dub was released (as opposed to shows like Cowboy Bebop that got famous because of their English dub), so when it was the natural reaction was that it doesn't sound right. Knowing this, I wasn't too quick to judge it myself. I instead asked people who had never seen the show prior what they thought and they mostly said it was fine (except for Kyou).

Some pronunciations were...strange, but I felt most of it was because of the characters speaking English when I was used to it in Japanese. I don't recall hearing Fujibashi at least.

ARXLaevatein said:
While a voice as deep as Tomoya's can occasionally happen, it's not often. He sounds more like he's 25.

Sunohara's dub voice does not fit that of a 17 year old male.

Tomoyo... while I haven't seen many people complain about her, I feel like her voice actress is missing one crucial part of her personality. Tomoyo often shows a sort of vulnerable side, like she's unsure of things. However, the dub actress makes it seem like she's always in control, and when she tries, it sorta comes off as nagging.

And please refer to this link to see just one of the many "Fujibashi" moments. Keep in mind this happens often: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB9GqGQUSeo#t=0m40s

Redfoxoffire said:

Wrong again. See, the problem here is that you're relying too much on "emotion." Any actor can emote. Hell, I can emote. If emotion was all it took anyone could be a good voice actor. There are multiple things that go into giving a good performance, such as timing, enunciation, and more that you won't catch unless you speak the language at least somewhat fluently. This is the only reason anyone here can judge English voice work at all; we know the language. Everyone thinks the Japanese are Gods of acting, but the sad truth is that they really aren't much different at all.

mugenwalker said:
I never said the Japanese are Gods of acting. They have their faults. But anyone can act angry and throw a tantrum. Can you call that acting? What separates great actors from shitty ones are their ability to express the emotions of the character they are playing. To really be in role. If you haven't actually watched any foreign movies in which such things happen, then you obvious think movies like Avatar and Star Wars ep 1 - 3 are God's gift to humanity. If you really can't understand that there are things that can pass through barriers like language, you really need to broaden your horizons.

Redfoxoffire said:
I really don't see it. Most of the guys at my high school had voices in a similar range, that's for sure. I think my brother was even deeper at that age.

Greg Ayres I feel is one that takes some getting used to. You don't like him at first, but as you hear him more his voice grows on you. That's how I felt when I watched Welcome to the NHK. At first I thought he sounded pretty weird as Yamazaki but as I kept watching I noticed how good he really was in the role.

Uh, I've seen the show twice (in Japanese) and never gotten that feeling from Tomoyo. I don't think I'd have said it the same way myself, but she always felt pretty "in control" to me.

Wow, you're right. I understand altering the pronunciation of Ryou (so it instead sounded like "Row," because the sound is hard to do in English), but for this one I can't think of a reason. Normally I'd say "lip flaps," but that's never bothered them before, so I don't see how it would be such a big deal here.

At the same time, this isn't a huge problem. It's not like it changes the story or the character in any way. It's worth noting, yes, but I don't think it makes the dub suck overall.

Redfoxoffire said:

You're missing the point. Yes, there are things that can pass the language barrier. I could probably even give you emotion as one of them. However, there's more to good acting than emotion. Far more. And no, I don't think those movies are God's gift to anyone except maybe sci-fi fans (I was never a Star Wars fan).

ARXLaevatein said:
And I've read the VN. The anime didn't have Tomoyo's route at all till that very compressed last episode, Tomoyo's world. There are many, many, many tender moments between Tomoyo and Tomoya, where Tomoyo shows a vulnerable side to her personality. Like, I reread the baseball scene in the VN, then watched it in the dub. Tomoyo in the VN was very worried, and she had little confidence in her ability to win. However, in the dub, it seemed more like a drag to her. Her complaining to Tomoya in the dub made it sound like she was nagging. So I won't say they destroyed her character, I will say they changed it a fair amount.

Seems more like overall laziness to me. No, it doesn't change the characters, no it doesn't change the story. But why would they leave in such an error like that? I can't think of a reason other than laziness, and laziness goes hand in hand with lack of effort. Whose lack of effort? The translator, the editors, the voice actors, I wouldn't know. But when you see a lack of effort, you can tell that the overall product is more forced than it needs to be.

mugenwalker said:
What's your point, that there are more to good acting than emotion? Yeah, it seems that these days the blonder you are, the taller you are, and the more good looking you are, the better your acting is as well. So why don't you specify these things that are "far more" important than are actor's ability to pass the barrier and reach crowds in the far corners of the world.

ARXLaevatein said:
She's not different in the VN. The last episode captures the relationship between Tomoyo and Tomoya perfectly, and in fact, the random scenes, such as the baseball scene, are portrayed nearly identically to the VN, as well. Tomoyo does show that weak side in the anime as well, and while it's rather subtle, it's there (and subtlety is nothing to complain about). However, the dub completely throws away this subtlety, going for a different approach to Tomoyo's character, which doesn't do her character any justice. So no, it's not KyoAni's fault, since they stuck closely to the source material, but it is the voice actress's fault for deviating from Tomoyo's character.

If the director is lazy, I don't have high hopes for it. At all. And that shows.

mugenwalker said:
The point is, there are great dubs. But that doesn't mean dubs > subs. Just because there exist great works of literature, doesn't mean that all literature is good. Just like how reading The Adventure of Huckleberry Finn, which is arguably one of the greatest works of American literature, wouldn't be the same as reading it in Chinese, Japanese, German, French, etc., dubbed anime just doesn't have the same feel to it as subbed anime will.

nmanguy said:
Also, just because I'm bored and might as well:
Wait... so everyone's saying "quality" this or that, but what exactly is quality? I doubt it's even possible to judge it objectively. Aside from something so blatantly unable to "trick" someone's brain, like having an opposite-gender or wrong age voice on someone (Like Luffy in One Piece and Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin in their Japanese dubs, or anyone in the Naruto English dub), what else makes a dub (in any language) "bad"?

Kuyukly said:

It's not "dubs are better", it's "dubs are not worse". That's our message. Seems to be what you're trying to hint to as well, am I wrong?

mugenwalker said:


And what basis or proof do you have to support your hypothesis that dubs are the same as subs. Because if you're not trying to say dubs aren't better or worse, that must be mean you hold them at equals. And there must be a reason(s) for that.

Kuyukly said:

My "proof", as you call it, is that your (your as in "dubhaters", not you in particular, although I did see you make that claim) claims that American VAs are talentless or apathetic are straight-out wrong.

Heika said:
There are of course some disasters, too, specially among old stuff, an example is Hokuto no Ken which is unquestionably the most appalling dubbed anime I've seen.

mugenwalker said:


I never said ALL American VAs are talentless or apathetic. There are some I view fairly highly, but the most widely recognized ones are pretty much trash. Azumanga Daioh was ok, but it somehow didn't transfer the sense of school life as they were trying to show it to us, although it did a very good job otherwise. AIR I found to be overrated, so I'm not gonna go there.

Point is, a MAJORITY of dubs are inferior to their subbed versions. Of course there are rare occasions when it's the other way around, but it's generally not the case. And even though I want to believe it, the majority of VAs sound like as though they don't care that there will be people looking forward to their performance.

Kuyukly said:

That was true years ago. You haven't watched much of anything post-2004, have you?

nmanguy said:


Wow, that has a dub? Or is it a "dub" like pretty much any non-Dragonball 80's anime?

Kuyukly said:
Wow. TTGL, Death Note, FMA, and GitS are all fantastic dubs. I don't know about the rest since I haven't seen them (except Higurashi, which I agree is mediocre).

I think we're done here; it's clear to me you have far higher standards for English acting than Japanese, and therefore there's no convincing you.

Later.

mugenwalker said:


Apparently, I've watched more dubs than you have. You've only seen, from wat I can tell, just several dubs over the years, and the ones that were perhaps slightly better than others, with the exception of GitS and maybe TTGL. You should watch as many dubs as I have, and then maybe you'd understand how I feel.

ARXLaevatein said:


Clannad's dub has actually been one of the worst dubs I've heard in recent years

Onibokusu said:

You can say that about Kuyukly (based upon his/her list), but not about me. I've watched more dubs than you have, have I not? Should I agree you with just because of that? Not really.

Try again.

mugenwalker said:


Try again? I don't need to, I've already made my point. It's obvious you've just jumped in to this out of nowhere, so you have no idea what has caused all this discussion, so I suggest you go back a few pages and know what we were discussing before you go on about watching more. If you'd actually read something, you would know that we were discussing the quality of American VAs in dubs, and the only way you would know the overall quality of American VAs is by watching more dubbed anime.

Either way, you have no idea wtf we were talking about, and you don't even have the slightest idea as to what you should disagree/agree about.

Onibokusu said:

Nice troll. I've been in the topic longer than you have, bro.

I tore your point apart by simply stating that I've seen more dubs than you, and that I simply don't agree with you about the quality of American VAs.

Asako said:
I think a lot of Japan's VA quality comes from the sheer number of them. A few hundred (I forget exact figures) 'graduate' VA schools/agency programs every yearl, and the majority is mediocre, but out of the hundreds you get a few gems, who go on to have long careers and become loved by people overseas (Rie, Aaya, Yui etc) so people base overall Japanese quality on these big names who are really diamonds in the rough in the overall pool of talent.

American VAs are different in there are far less of them, and not many come along every year to add to the pool. Thus you hear the same voices over and over again. So having heard someone ten years ago (say Bosch as Vash) they will still discount any of his work today (eg. Ichigo) and while that's probably a poor example since he's a huge name in dubbing, the point stands. I think. I lost track of where I was going.

mugenwalker said:


You're absolutely right. The biggest problem with American VAs is that if there's a mediocre VA, then you just have to use that VA over and over because you don't have too many options. However, that's not to say Americans VAs aren't bad, there are some really awesome VAs, like Troy Baker or Yuri Lowenthal. And then when a group of awesome cast come together, you get masterpieces like GitS and Beebop and Baccano and such. It's all about getting the formula right.

Onibokusu said:


You can say that about Kuyukly (based upon his/her list), but not about me. I've watched more dubs than you have, have I not? Should I agree you with just because of that? Not really.

Try again.

Redfoxoffire said:

Same, I've likely seen more English dubs as well, and look where I am.

Also, you say you watch the English dub for shows you already liked in Japanese? Well, join the club. That's probably the most common reason for disliking English dubs these days: You're already familiar with the Japanese voices, so hearing them in English is bound to sound somewhat strange (I feel like a broken record repeating this argument to everyone who joins this discussion).

mugenwalker said:
but Vincent's voice is terrible for Ergo Proxy.