| That's a fun thing to do, sometimes it triggers them and they start arguing which is kinda fun. |
  |
Parataxical said: I'm always baffled by how many people keep arguing that anime opinions are "100% subjective". There are and have always been widely agreed upon critical standards by which works of any medium are judged which reflect why we enjoy certain works and not others and which are relatively stable over time. Because opinions are subjective. You'll realize one day that the critical standard you're talking about is completely arbitrary. There is nothing objectively good or bad when the criteria used to value a show is fundamentaly based on subjective aspects. You will find bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL. If you don't, then you would need to develop your taste. |
SaberHotMikasa said: Nope. The world is fucked up because people are incapable of exercising rationality in their beliefs. It has nothing to do with people who are antagonistic or not. You could refuse to evaluate reason whether you're being antagonistic or antagonized.Antagonistic people are the reason why the world is so fucked up though. World Peace won’t happen because of these people. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Hrybami said: You'll realize one day that the critical standard you're talking about is completely arbitrary. There is nothing objectively good or bad when the criteria used to value a show is fundamentaly based on subjective aspects. You will find bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL. If you don't, then you would need to develop your taste. You claim that there are "bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL". But you've already claimed that "there's nothing objectively good or bad" and that the standards are "completely arbitrary". What sort of criteria are you using that would allow you to make such a sweeping categorization of "bad anime" and "good anime"? |
Parataxical said: Hrybami said: You'll realize one day that the critical standard you're talking about is completely arbitrary. There is nothing objectively good or bad when the criteria used to value a show is fundamentaly based on subjective aspects. You will find bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL. If you don't, then you would need to develop your taste. You claim that there are "bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL". But you've already claimed that "there's nothing objectively good or bad" and that the standards are "completely arbitrary". What sort of criteria are you using that would allow you to make such a sweeping categorization of "bad anime" and "good anime"? Any criteria would do. It's not because you have one and someone else use the same that it's now magically objective. |
Hrybami said: Parataxical said: You claim that there are "bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL". But you've already claimed that "there's nothing objectively good or bad" and that the standards are "completely arbitrary". What sort of criteria are you using that would allow you to make such a sweeping categorization of "bad anime" and "good anime"? Any criteria would do. It's not because you have one and someone else use the same that it's now magically objective. Great, then I can now claim if I wanted that based on my criteria of what a "bad" and "good" anime is, there are no bad anime with a high score on MAL and no good anime with a low score on MAL. Or even better, I could make the argument that every anime you think is bad is actually good and is highly rated on MAL and vice versa. My claims (to use the words of the OP) are equally valid, and you'd have no recourse to argue against me because there's no objective standard on which you could base any argument on. And you want me to "develop my taste"? Why should I do that when I can just bash yours? Do you see how that basically makes your claim as worded completely meaningless? Your claims would make even having a intelligent conversation about anime or any medium of art to begin with impossible. |
Parataxical said: By the way, you claimed that there are "widely agreed upon critical standards". If this were true, then there would be no disagreement between critics, and every Rotten Tomatoes score would be identical, or that some body of experts would be able to rate the adherence of each critic according to that "widely agreed upon critical standard". But obviously there is disagreement on Rotten Tomatoes, and no scientific body has stepped up to the plate to rate how "good" these critics are. And if it was as simple as following a rule, then people could program AI to derive an "objective score" that's an irrefutable law of nature that every person would have to agree with, regardless of culture or alien planet.Hrybami said: You'll realize one day that the critical standard you're talking about is completely arbitrary. There is nothing objectively good or bad when the criteria used to value a show is fundamentaly based on subjective aspects. You will find bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL. If you don't, then you would need to develop your taste. You claim that there are "bad anime with high score on MAL and good anime with low score on MAL". But you've already claimed that "there's nothing objectively good or bad" and that the standards are "completely arbitrary". What sort of criteria are you using that would allow you to make such a sweeping categorization of "bad anime" and "good anime"? I hope you know how crazy this alternate reality sounds. Parataxical said: I completely agree, although validity itself is in the eye of the beholder. If you can convince people to accept your opinion, then you've done your job.Great, then I can now claim if I wanted that based on my criteria of what a "bad" and "good" anime is, there are no bad anime with a high score on MAL and no good anime with a low score on MAL. Or even better, I could make the argument that every anime you think is bad is actually good and is highly rated on MAL and vice versa. My claims (to use the words of the OP) are equally valid, and you'd have no recourse to argue against me because there's no objective standard on which you could base any argument on. And you want me to "develop my taste"? Why should I do that when I can just bash yours? Parataxical said: No. Do you see how that basically makes your claim as worded completely meaningless? Parataxical said: Not at all.Your claims would make even having a intelligent conversation about anime or any medium of art to begin with impossible. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Parataxical said: Hrybami said: Any criteria would do. It's not because you have one and someone else use the same that it's now magically objective. Great, then I can now claim if I wanted that based on my criteria of what a "bad" and "good" anime is, there are no bad anime with a high score on MAL and no good anime with a low score on MAL. Or even better, I could make the argument that every anime you think is bad is actually good and is highly rated on MAL and vice versa. My claims (to use the words of the OP) are equally valid, and you'd have no recourse to argue against me because there's no objective standard on which you could base any argument on. And you want me to "develop my taste"? Why should I do that when I can just bash yours? Do you see how that basically makes your claim as worded completely meaningless? Your claims would make even having a intelligent conversation about anime or any medium of art to begin with impossible. You got it right until you added that we couldn't argue. You seem to think that if it's subjective, then we couldn't discuss it which is completely false. You can make a claim while I can claim the opposite and we both would have valid arguments. You should develop your taste if you tend to believe that certain anime are irrefutably good or bad according to a preset of definitive standard that writers must follow. Nothing in art is definitive. I don't really think I need to say more. |
katsucats said: By the way, you claimed that there are "widely agreed upon critical standards". If this were true, then there would be no disagreement between critics, and every Rotten Tomatoes score would be identical, or that some body of experts would be able to rate the adherence of each critic according to that "widely agreed upon critical standard". But obviously there is disagreement on Rotten Tomatoes, and no scientific body has stepped up to the plate to rate how "good" these critics are. And if it was as simple as following a rule, then people could program AI to derive an "objective score" that's an irrefutable law of nature that every person would have to agree with, regardless of culture or alien planet. I hope you know how crazy this alternate reality sounds. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make this argument. The main flaw with your line of reasoning lies in your conclusion that all disagreement would be eliminated by a widely agreed upon set of standards. You can very much have a set of agreed upon standards that do not necessarily eliminate all variability and disagreement. This is not even a new idea. It forms the basis of discourse in a diverse range of fields from the music world to the culinary scene to the legal system and more. Every single one of those fields has some form of agreed upon standard that still leaves a lot of room open for debate, discussion, and disagreement. This is what objectivity looks like. It doesn't mean find a perfect scale that allows you to measure anything and everything with no room for disagreement like a lot of people like you believe. It means creating a system (even if imperfect) that gives a systematic way for opinions to be gathered, compared, and discussed and for judgements to be made. And discussions about anime, like any other medium, are based in these kinds of objective frameworks. |
Parataxical said: I find this perspective shallow and pernicious, as it gives rise to harmful effects like ethnocentrism despite being wrong on a number fronts. And we could demonstrate it by various prongs:katsucats said: I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make this argument. The main flaw with your line of reasoning lies in your conclusion that all disagreement would be eliminated by a widely agreed upon set of standards. You can very much have a set of agreed upon standards that do not necessarily eliminate all variability and disagreement. This is not even a new idea. It forms the basis of discourse in a diverse range of fields from the music world to the culinary scene to the legal system and more. Every single one of those fields has some form of agreed upon standard that still leaves a lot of room open for debate, discussion, and disagreement.By the way, you claimed that there are "widely agreed upon critical standards". If this were true, then there would be no disagreement between critics, and every Rotten Tomatoes score would be identical, or that some body of experts would be able to rate the adherence of each critic according to that "widely agreed upon critical standard". But obviously there is disagreement on Rotten Tomatoes, and no scientific body has stepped up to the plate to rate how "good" these critics are. And if it was as simple as following a rule, then people could program AI to derive an "objective score" that's an irrefutable law of nature that every person would have to agree with, regardless of culture or alien planet. I hope you know how crazy this alternate reality sounds. This is what objectivity looks like. It doesn't mean find a perfect scale that allows you to measure anything and everything with no room for disagreement like a lot of people like you believe. It means creating a system (even if imperfect) that gives a systematic way for opinions to be gathered, compared, and discussed and for judgements to be made. And discussions about anime, like any other medium, are based in these kinds of objective frameworks.
We'll stop there. But suffice to say, human history does not support your assertions that there was ever a single standard, at any point in time, for any of culinary, music, art, or legal systems. Unless you mean that someone subjectively created a legal system, which other people follow, which is an analytical fact, a tautology based upon the subjective opinions of a few. For example, if I make up a new word, "Gomis", which I define as "tree". Then nobody could say that "Gomis is tree" is an objective fact, but they could say that IF Gomis is tree, then Gomis would be tree -- and that would be an objective fact. Which is exactly your point about legal systems. Someone arbitrarily defined it in the past, several hundred people in a room agreed on them (out of about 700 million at the time), like the rules of Chess. To call that objective would be as disingenuous as saying "because I said so", unless you first acknowledge "because I said so". Lastly, I think it goes without saying that just because conspiracy theorist Alex Jones had 850,000 followers on Twitter before he was banned doesn't make him some kind of "objective standard". In other words, you're conflating popularity with correctness. People once thought the sun revolved around the Earth, or that the Earth was flat, and the idea that any discussion beyond those assumptions are meaningless is... well, meaningless. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Parataxical said: katsucats said: By the way, you claimed that there are "widely agreed upon critical standards". If this were true, then there would be no disagreement between critics, and every Rotten Tomatoes score would be identical, or that some body of experts would be able to rate the adherence of each critic according to that "widely agreed upon critical standard". But obviously there is disagreement on Rotten Tomatoes, and no scientific body has stepped up to the plate to rate how "good" these critics are. And if it was as simple as following a rule, then people could program AI to derive an "objective score" that's an irrefutable law of nature that every person would have to agree with, regardless of culture or alien planet. I hope you know how crazy this alternate reality sounds. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make this argument. The main flaw with your line of reasoning lies in your conclusion that all disagreement would be eliminated by a widely agreed upon set of standards. You can very much have a set of agreed upon standards that do not necessarily eliminate all variability and disagreement. This is not even a new idea. It forms the basis of discourse in a diverse range of fields from the music world to the culinary scene to the legal system and more. Every single one of those fields has some form of agreed upon standard that still leaves a lot of room open for debate, discussion, and disagreement. This is what objectivity looks like. It doesn't mean find a perfect scale that allows you to measure anything and everything with no room for disagreement like a lot of people like you believe. It means creating a system (even if imperfect) that gives a systematic way for opinions to be gathered, compared, and discussed and for judgements to be made. And discussions about anime, like any other medium, are based in these kinds of objective frameworks. Except that the system you're describing is an ensemble of theories and empirical dictum that culturally emerged through history of art. Not only this system tend to vary according to the culture and time period, but it's also outside of the definition of objectivity which has to be isolated of cultural and time period influences. Because as we're using a standard today and here, this standard could have been different in the past and could be different in the future. As opposed to the objective definition of a metre or a kilogram which need to remain constant over times. In anime, you can make an opinion about the definition of a well written character, but you can't make an opinion about the definition of frame per second or resolution. There are things in anime that are objective and other that are subjective. Anything regarding good or bad is inherently subjective since nothing in the objective aspects of anime directly tell what's good or bad since those are emotions and hence non-quantifiable. It's also an authority fallacy to assert that an opinion is less subjective if it doesn't cater to your system. Opinions are in themselves subjective. |
Hrybami said: You got it right until you added that we couldn't argue. You seem to think that if it's subjective, then we couldn't discuss it which is completely false. You can make a claim while I can claim the opposite and we both would have valid arguments. Discussion involves an actual engagement with and analysis of ideas (a back and forth of ideas if you will). If what you described is a discussion, my "conversation" with my dog would qualify as a discussion. A claim and argument requires by definition that there be some semblance of truth or error. So how exactly are you supposed to have this "discussion" about your "claims" and "arguments" when you've literally argued that there is no objective standard by which me or you can be right or wrong? Hrybami said: You should develop your taste if you tend to believe that certain anime are irrefutably good or bad according to a preset of definitive standard that writers must follow. Nothing in art is definitive. I don't really think I need to say more. No, I think you really need to say more. You really seem to like this word "taste", but now that you used in in this context, I'm getting the impression you yourself don't quite know what you're trying to communicate when you use it. So tell me more. What exactly do you mean by "developing taste"? |
Parataxical said: Hrybami said: You got it right until you added that we couldn't argue. You seem to think that if it's subjective, then we couldn't discuss it which is completely false. You can make a claim while I can claim the opposite and we both would have valid arguments. Discussion involves an actual engagement with and analysis of ideas (a back and forth of ideas if you will). If what you described is a discussion, my "conversation" with my dog would qualify as a discussion. A claim and argument requires by definition that there be some semblance of truth or error. So how exactly are you supposed to have this "discussion" about your "claims" and "arguments" when you've literally argued that there is no objective standard by which me or you can be right or wrong? Hrybami said: You should develop your taste if you tend to believe that certain anime are irrefutably good or bad according to a preset of definitive standard that writers must follow. Nothing in art is definitive. I don't really think I need to say more. No, I think you really need to say more. You really seem to like this word "taste", but now that you used in in this context, I'm getting the impression you yourself don't quite know what you're trying to communicate when you use it. So tell me more. What exactly do you mean by "developing taste"? Well you technically can have a discussion with an animal if you can teach them sign and commands. A discussion only require exchange of messages between two participants. This could also be for one way only. It's pretty narrow-minded to think that a discussion absolutely require some objective standard. Moreover that the intersubjectivity could allow us to reasonably have a discussion with subjective concepts without having to question or prove if they are actually true. We aren't limited to discuss only what's objective. Not only that would be totally pointless in everyday life, but the interesting part of a discussion is always about sharing our differences of perspectives and understanding the other through opinions supported by arguments. Taste implies having a personal standard. You don't decide what you like or not since you are born with it and you discover it through your life. If your taste has nothing personal to it, then you just have no taste. It's that simple. |
| some of the anime fans are salty and they cant accept other opinnions. oh, and some of them feel like "bigger" weebs, when they shit on main stream anime. :)  |
 |
neamhnaid said: some of the anime fans are salty and they cant accept other opinnions. oh, and some of them feel like "bigger" weebs, when they shit on main stream anime. :) Disappointed that this is the reality of the anime community ): Glad it’s not as bad as the gaming community though which is filled with racist & homophobic people.... like we still have people like that in the anime community but I hope we can evolve as a community someday, I doubt it though. |
| Because, unfortunately, the average person knows not the concept of subjectivity. |
| You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
SaberHotMikasa said: neamhnaid said: some of the anime fans are salty and they cant accept other opinnions. oh, and some of them feel like "bigger" weebs, when they shit on main stream anime. :) Disappointed that this is the reality of the anime community ): Glad it’s not as bad as the gaming community though which is filled with racist & homophobic people.... like we still have people like that in the anime community but I hope we can evolve as a community someday, I doubt it though. oh, i agree. but there will always be those kinds of people. im not that long in this community, but i expected that weebs would not be soo closed minded. just because a lot of people are bitching on weebs. i heard so many insults as weird, pedophiles, dropout, no lifer and so many more. and so many insults on the japan and anime itself. i thought, that weebs would understand, how it feels being bullied or being making fun of. but noo, a lot of them continue this bullying on other communities like kpop fandoms and kpop idols themselves, lgbt community and other races. like what ? |
|
More topics from this board
» Do you ever get a chafing feel like you've already seen everything worth seeing?Rally- - 8 hours ago |
25 |
by StarlaFox
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
» Different views of certain anime caused by generational gap?thewiru - 6 minutes ago |
0 |
by thewiru
»»
6 minutes ago |
|
» 🍷 AD Summer 2025 Best Girl Contest ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Shizuna - Sep 28 |
303 |
by SouthRzVa
»»
11 minutes ago |
|
» Favorite eye design of the seasonTirinchas - 2 hours ago |
3 |
by WaterMage
»»
14 minutes ago |
|
» ⌛ Best Girls of the Past Eras >Increased Limit ( 1 2 3 )Shizuna - Yesterday |
109 |
by vasipi4946
»»
37 minutes ago |