| I noticed a lot of anime uploads and encoding groups choose to encode anime in 10-bit. I'm just wondering why they choose to do this. Even if it is originally from a bluray rip. I don't know any bluray movies/films/anime that is done originally in 10 bit. For example, if I did a completely uncompressed rip of any bluray that I have anime or live action, the uncompressed mkv file will always be 8 bit. In addition to all that the majority of monitors people have are 8 bit and not 10 bit. So my questions is why do encoding groups like to specifically do anime in 10 bit as opposed to the standard 8bit? |
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| you can't summon Daiz on MAL. |
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Syrup- said: you can't summon Daiz on MAL. Daiz? The DBZ character? I don't get it... o.o j0x said: 10-bit-depth like on x264/x265 is more efficient and can save like 10%-20% file size more and also it reduces compression artifacts like color banding sure the original discs like BluRay are not encoded in 10-bit-depth but they are uncompressed or lossless compression while x264 is usually use as lossy compression meaning redundant/repeated data are remove to reduce more the file size but it will lose some visual quality especially introducing compression artifacts like color banding too the more you lessen the file size/bitrate more so 10-bit-depth x264 with its efficiency somehow compensates on that you do not need a 10-bit-depth display monitor just to play this files either and also fansubbers like to use new technology, they are the ones to first use h264 via x264, they are also the first to use MKV container, and fansubbers i heard invented ASS/SSA subtitles Hmm, I guess I'll take you at your word of it being an efficiency thing. I know you don't need a 10-bit display monitor to play the files, but I figure you don't notice the color differences if you are watching on an 8-bit display. Speaking of monitors, do you know how I can check what chroma subsampling I have? Idk if they were the first to use h264/x264, but yes the ASS/SSA are kind of exclusive to the anime community as I have not seen it elsewhere. I don't think the ASS/SSA are better than SRT. I think fansub groups use them to add their own flare to the text and for customization purposes. |
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| Fuck if I can tell the difference. |
| Now I see the secret of the making of the best persons. It is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth. -Walt Whitman A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -Robert A. Heinlein |
| I still remember when fansubbers made the switch to 10bit there was alot of speculation on rather people will be able to play their anime or not. It was a fun read indeed. |
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listbot said: They are preferred because they don't want to upload 600MB per 24min which no one want either. Just 300 or below can avoid the color banding. Heh lol, all my anime is 1080p with a few exceptions. 24min episodes being between 800mb and 1gb. |
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j0x said: VelikiyZmey said: Hmm, I guess I'll take you at your word of it being an efficiency thing. I know you don't need a 10-bit display monitor to play the files, but I figure you don't notice the color differences if you are watching on an 8-bit display. Speaking of monitors, do you know how I can check what chroma subsampling I have? Idk if they were the first to use h264/x264, but yes the ASS/SSA are kind of exclusive to the anime community as I have not seen it elsewhere. I don't think the ASS/SSA are better than SRT. I think fansub groups use them to add their own flare to the text and for customization purposes. here you can read this to learn more straight from the x264 development team http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_02-ateme-why_does_10bit_save_bandwidth.pdf i got no idea how to check chroma sampling on display monitors but you can still see the difference with 8-bit-depth vs 10-bit-depth in an 8-bit display monitor like less color banding artifacts the fansub community is the first to use x264 and now they are also the first to experiment on x265 too, and yes you cannot make animations and customization with SRT subtitles so the fansubers invented ASS/SSA subtitles[/quote] I see so 10 bit is just a more efficient way of encoding with x264. But still the full bluray rip is still better even though its 8-bit because it is lossless? Personally, I don't care for fansubs. I only use them for new shows, when there is no other choice, unless the dub is horrendous and there is no professional subtitling done. I disagree with you about them being the "first" to use x264. x265 isn't ready yet and other groups that upload western movies/tv shows have played around with it as well. But its still not worth going into x265 yet. On top of that, I wouldn't bother with re-encoding or re-ripping the stuff I already have just so its x265 as the differences really will be minuscule (quality/file size). I just wonder why is it only the anime community that feels that 10 bit is important. Believe me, people who get live action shows and movies care about quality. So I'm just wondering why is it the anime community exclusively that does 10 bit, when people who rip live action also have the option in the software that they use to encode 10-bit. I just don't get that part. |
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| 10-bit is strictly better in every aspect. The only exception is if you watch anime on an old phone. |
j0x said: VelikiyZmey said: I see so 10 bit is just a more efficient way of encoding with x264. But still the full bluray rip is still better even though its 8-bit because it is lossless? obviously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_compression those full bluray rips or what they call BDRemux are the original/uncompressed videos anyway and they have huge file sizes like gigabytes per episode They are not very practical though. For example, I had Fate/Zero in x264 10b with FLAC, which was 60GB (2.4GB/Ep). When I upgraded to BD remux, which is 180GB(7.2GB/Ep), I was not able to discern any difference. I imagine relatively smaller 10-bit lossy compression with lower bitrate (e.g. 1.2GB/Ep) will also look practically identical. However, anything under 1GB/Ep, namely the popular 500MB/Ep, will look a tier below. |
j0x said: VelikiyZmey said: I see so 10 bit is just a more efficient way of encoding with x264. But still the full bluray rip is still better even though its 8-bit because it is lossless? Personally, I don't care for fansubs. I only use them for new shows, when there is no other choice, unless the dub is horrendous and there is no professional subtitling done. I disagree with you about them being the "first" to use x264. x265 isn't ready yet and other groups that upload western movies/tv shows have played around with it as well. But its still not worth going into x265 yet. On top of that, I wouldn't bother with re-encoding or re-ripping the stuff I already have just so its x265 as the differences really will be minuscule (quality/file size). I just wonder why is it only the anime community that feels that 10 bit is important. Believe me, people who get live action shows and movies care about quality. So I'm just wondering why is it the anime community exclusively that does 10 bit, when people who rip live action also have the option in the software that they use to encode 10-bit. I just don't get that part. who is the first to use x264 then? the Warez scene for example started using x264 later like in 2011 up until now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_%28warez%29#x264_for_television_sources i like you to give me your source on who started using x264, it was a transition from XviD to x264 at those times, and we know that much of the hardware compatibility that time has no h264 support, its all DivX and XviD during those early 2000-2005 (add that dreaded RMVB RealVideo codec) like i said Fansubs likes to use bleeding edge technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology they do not care for commercial hardware compatibility at all as long as PC/desktop computers can play the file http://doki.co/2011/07/19/discussion-10-bit-h264/ and sure x265 is still at early stage but some fansubbers are using it already if you go and search the term "HEVC" on NyaaTorrents, its only a matter of time when popular fansubs groups use x265 i bet you are complaining because 10-bit-depth has no mainstream hardware players right? the Fansubbers dont care because like mention earlier they are like pioneers of technology or like to use bleeding edge technology I never said that the anime groups were not using it before it went mainstream. Sure they used it early on. I'm just saying that them being the absolute first isn't really definite. As far as who used it way early on, well as far as I can remember several pirating groups (including anime communities), but I'm fairly certain they weren't the only ones. In the link you posted, it claimed 2009, and I'm certain I've seen videos in x264 before that year. Sure anime communities did help drive some important/interesting technologies. Regardless, its kind of trivial at this point and time. I'm not sure what makes it bleeding edge anymore? A lot of anime out there is still being released in 480p SD. I wasn't really referring to fansubbers in particular. Lets say the anime was licensed in NA, even the NA rips are 10-bit. x265, HEVC, and 10-bit aren't really exclusive to fansubbers, since the rise of 4k. I'm not really complaining at all, sorry if it came off that way. Its just a burning questions I've had and haven't really been able to find an answer anywhere else I searched, so I decided to ask it here. I mainly watch anime on my computer anyway so its not a big deal. Most of the anime I have is 1080p which by default also happens to be encoded in 10bit. I was browsing through my library and noticed that. Compatibility isn't an issue because I use KCP (kawaii codec pack) for my anime. BTW, thanks for answering my questions :) j0x said: VelikiyZmey said: I see so 10 bit is just a more efficient way of encoding with x264. But still the full bluray rip is still better even though its 8-bit because it is lossless? obviously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_compression those full bluray rips or what they call BDRemux are the original/uncompressed videos anyway and they have huge file sizes like gigabytes per episode This is something a full bluray rip would typically have as a video codec: MPEG-4 AVC Video 34892 kbps 1080p / 23,976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1 Rinth said: j0x said: obviously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_compression those full bluray rips or what they call BDRemux are the original/uncompressed videos anyway and they have huge file sizes like gigabytes per episode They are not very practical though. For example, I had Fate/Zero in x264 10b with FLAC, which was 60GB (2.4GB/Ep). When I upgraded to BD remux, which is 180GB(7.2GB/Ep), I was not able to discern any difference. I imagine relatively smaller 10-bit lossy compression with lower bitrate (e.g. 1.2GB/Ep) will also look practically identical. However, anything under 1GB/Ep, namely the popular 500MB/Ep, will look a tier below. Space really isn't an issue. Storage is relatively cheap. Typically I do full movie rips whether they are anime or live action. T.v. shows and anime serials though I agree with you would be too much. I typically get the 1080p 10-bit version. For example, I did Akira 1988 blu ray. I did the full rip. But serials anime or live action would take up too much space even for me if I decided to do the full rip. |
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Duskfall said: 10bit looks better than 8bit, that's for sure. When it comes to space usage, HEVC saves the most space, but no one uses it because it's unsupported by most players. Some groups release experimental HEVC videos, but most of them release 10bit as well, because of the reasons formerly stated. Placebo? Self confirmation bias? I will accept the explanation that it can be more efficient and perhaps help with the removal of some artifacts with encoding the full rip. However I don't notice a difference in the way the actual picture looks. Anime fans aren't the only people that are video/audiophiles. I'm pretty sure 10-bit isn't a foreign concept to those who do regular encoding of live action films/shows as most of the popular encoding software offers 10-bit options, however they never use them, perhaps there will be better reason to with 4k becoming the mainstream. |
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worldeditor11 said: VelikiyZmey said: Placebo? Self confirmation bias? From a technical standpoint, 10 bit is indeed better in terms of quality due to better internal precision leading to less rounding errors. Some professional encoding/decoding software offer till 16 bits if we are talking about the big boys. I am not sure why you even bother arguing this fact. I was responding to the person that said they "look better" lol. I wasn't arguing the "technical standpoint", of course its superior in that aspect. But when someone says they "look" better that is from a perception standpoint, and to me in that area is marginal if any difference. I'm not disagreeing with you on the technical standpoint part. You took what I said out of context. But if you are going on a technical standpoint then the same thing could be said about vinyl and CD. Sure from a technical standpoint CD is better than Vinyl, but a lot of people perceive vinyl sound to be better. worldeditor11 said: VelikiyZmey said: I will accept the explanation that it can be more efficient and perhaps help with the removal of some artifacts with encoding the full rip. However I don't notice a difference in the way the actual picture looks. Anime fans aren't the only people that are video/audiophiles. I'm pretty sure 10-bit isn't a foreign concept to those who do regular encoding of live action films/shows as most of the popular encoding software offers 10-bit options, however they never use them, perhaps there will be better reason to with 4k becoming the mainstream. They never use them because of higher hardware requirements in both encoding and decoding the video rather than the software itself. Consumer playback devices (read not PCs) are the main reason why 8-bit video exist. It is essentially a trade off between quality for speed. The way I'm interpreting what you are saying is that anime encoders have better hardware than live action encoders??? That makes no sense. Live action encoders have computer hardware no worse than anime encoders. Most consumer products that get hooked up to the t.v. have problems with 10bit, but that isn't the issue, because most people who torrent just end up watching it on there PC anyway, which have no problems with 10-bit playback. The best quality on disc right now as far as I know is the 4k Blu-rays, which really hasn't taken off just yet. So for now main discs being ripped are the standard blu-rays 1080p. As I mentioned before 8-bit is native on Blu-ray... not 10-bit. A lossless Blu-ray rip that is 8-bit will have better quality than a Blu-ray rip that goes through 10-bit encoding (storage issues aside). |
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| Its supposedly better quality along with smaller file size. Quality is better, just barely. You'll only notice it if you have 2 images of 8bit and 10buit side by side. Unless you have a proper 10bit monitor of course then 10bit is supposedly insane. |
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worldeditor11 said: VelikiyZmey said: I was responding to the person that said they "look better" lol. I wasn't arguing the "technical standpoint", of course its superior in that aspect. But when someone says they "look" better that is from a perception standpoint, and to me in that area is marginal if any difference. I'm not disagreeing with you on the technical standpoint part. You took what I said out of context. I didn't. Both subjective and objective quality of 10 bit is superior comparing to 8bit, perceivable or not. Let me put it this way, the world is round but you can't see it through normal means. People say no, world is flat because they can't perceive it is round. Process of elimination and all that jazz. So, who is right? This comparison is not like anime resolution and avs scripts where subjective quality commonly takes place. Plus, that guy was commenting 10 bit quality based on a technical standpoint. Unless I comprehend wrong, then I apologise. VelikiyZmey said: The way I'm interpreting what you are saying is that anime encoders have better hardware than live action encoders??? That makes no sense. Live action encoders have computer hardware no worse than anime encoders. Most consumer products that get hooked up to the t.v. have problems with 10bit, but that isn't the issue, because most people who torrent just end up watching it on there PC anyway, which have no problems with 10-bit playback. Uhh, no. Initially, people watch anime on PCs because their TV can't play the video with subtitles properly and still is. You generally don't have that problem with live-action movies. This is why people who watches live action tend to play using dedicated playback devices connected to TV such as players rather than PC. These playback devices can't play 10bit videos unless you buy a new one that does. Hardware wise, the new device is more powerful due to more demand in decoding the 10bit video for playback in contrast to 8bit. Both anime and live action films are meant to be watched on a Telly but due to subtitle constraints, the former lean to PC as primary playback device. VelikiyZmey said: The best quality on disc right now as far as I know is the 4k Blu-rays, which really hasn't taken off just yet. So for now main discs being ripped are the standard blu-rays 1080p. As I mentioned before 8-bit is native on Blu-ray... not 10-bit. A lossless Blu-ray rip that is 8-bit will have better quality than a Blu-ray rip that goes through 10-bit encoding (storage issues aside). Funny thing is some DVD sourced videos have 9bits. I heard some go higher than that. Blu-ray generally get off with 8bit because of the huge bitrate being pumped into their videos. You can't do that when storage (the disc) itself is limited. Why huge bitrate? To reduce banding due to lower bit depth. Why not higher bit depth then? Because playback devices will be more expensive to make and sell due to faster hardware. As I said, quality for speed and they come to an agreement that 8bit is best for them. People who torrent tend not to watch it on the t.v. but already at there computer, statistically speaking, so what you said there is wrong. Whether it be anime or live action. Its about convenience they have the file already there on the computer. Perception means a lot, and technically speaking its superior, but everything on paper doesn't have the final conclusion. Similar with the audio analogy I gave. DVD is inferior to blu-ray don't even try to debate that... I have no problem watching full anime blurays or live action blurays on standard consumer products. Unquestionably the full Blu-ray rip even though is 8-bit will scientifically and perception wise be higher quality than 10-bit encodes. So no 10-bit encodes aren't superior to the full bluray rip. I have a 10-bit encode of Berserk Golden Arc and the full bluray rip. The full bluray rip looks better. Same quality as I put the disc into the player and watched it. If they use 8-bit as a standard on the disc because its consumer friendly than I consider that a good thing, especially since the quality doesn't suffer. Don't argue that 10-bit encodes are superior to full rip. Data is lost regardless. The person I was responding too said "10-bit looks better than 8-bit, that's for sure"... Sure sounds like perception to me. I'd understand if it made a huge difference on a 10-bit display which most people don't have. Anyway most of the Anime serials I have are 10-bit. They are kind of default on there since I get 1080p versions of the anime serials. Its like automatic that anime HD has 10-bit on the websites that I use. I'd use the full rip for the serials but that would take too much space since they are episodic. For movies though I just rip the full blu-ray. No point to encode... storage keeps getting cheaper and cheaper. |
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QPR said: Do you have a 10 bit monitor? If not get 8 bit as it plays on everything. People think they have 10 bit monitors but it's just an 8 bit monitor downgrading from 10 to 8 bit. There's a reason why 10 bit is anime only, it's a fad for 99% of people, kinda like saying 7.1 sounds great on a stereo system.. I re encode any 10 bit I download to 8 bit so it plays on all devices. Wow, everything you says was wrong. 1. The type of monitor is irrelevant. The benefits of 10bit encodes are visible even on a 8bit monitor. 2. The reason anime encores use 10bit is because the benefits of 10bit are only really worth it FOR anime. When encoding live-action you don't have to worry that much about color banding. You still get less file size, so it's still useful. 3. So you are FURTHER degrading the quality by encoding it once again. You're an idiot. |
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| They are all buttholes who won't leave them untouched. Except for the ones who aren't. I want the 20 GB 8-bit remux or BDMV, not your 2 GB 10-bit re-encode full of compression artifacts. |
QPR said: 1 - you still get the banding with an 8 bit monitor, even the makers say so. https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/10-bit-vs-8-bit-frc-monitor-color-difference.html you do know it gets converted to 8 bit on the fly so it can be seen on an 8 bit monitor? But you will get LESS banding with a 10bit encode. That's a fact. QPR said: 2 - I have seen most of 10 bit rips are even bigger. Has nothing to do with 10bit or 8bit. 10bit at same settings as 8bit will give a smaller file. Again, that's a fact. That people started doing larder encodes because they want it to look better (2010 has a lot of bitstarved encodes) has nothing to do with the bit depth. QPR said: 3 - It's the only way I can watch, the idiots are the encoders using 10 bit even though virtually no one has a 10 monitors to take advantage of it. Nobody cares about about your problems. We encoders only care about it looking good and working while playing on a PC. If it works on anything else, that's a bonus. But we don't care about it. |
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| These people are so incompetent. Like, they re-encoded the Kite Blu-ray in 10-bit, but KEPT the big black bars on the sides. Anyone watching these anime will be using a device that can correctly scale any aspect ratio. ヽ(ಠ_ಠ)ノ DmonHiro said: QPR said: 1 - you still get the banding with an 8 bit monitor, even the makers say so. https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/10-bit-vs-8-bit-frc-monitor-color-difference.html you do know it gets converted to 8 bit on the fly so it can be seen on an 8 bit monitor? But you will get LESS banding with a 10bit encode. That's a fact. But the Blu-rays and streams they rip are all 8-bit. (Unless it's an HDR anime, in which case you'd re-encode in 10-bit anyway.) You can't remove banding that is already in the source by making it 10-bit. If you could, it would reduce the quality. Re-encodes don't get banding that wasn't in the source unless the person uses really low bitrates, which they shouldn't do anyway. |
| Oh my God, you two are really dumb. When you encode from a BDMV you will get banding. It cannot be avoided. If you encode from a BDMV to 10bit h264/h265 you will get less banding then if you encode to 8bit h264/h265. How hard is that to understand? It's not an opinion. It's simple fact. You're not upgrading anything, 10bit preserves more then 8bit. It's mathematics, not something you can argue with. |
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DmonHiro said: Oh my God, you two are really dumb. When you encode from a BDMV you will get banding. It cannot be avoided. If you encode from a BDMV to 10bit h264/h265 you will get less banding then if you encode to 8bit h264/h265. How hard is that to understand? It's not an opinion. It's simple fact. You're not upgrading anything, 10bit preserves more then 8bit. It's mathematics, not something you can argue with. If it's so inevitable, point out to me where this color banding is in the seven second re-encode I just made. Original: https://mega.nz/file/FyoSVIyB#NIjmblfQ5lx1DPcxBaOJeneB6MtvYtFkqUa0qxFG1-I Re-encode: https://mega.nz/file/dvYRHI7b#I9fUh9iXKR3USTPp-sV54pH6aViWPDl4qViby_gzHc8 |
| Are you f-ing serious right now? Dear lord.... at least use an example that actually HAS gradients. As in ANIME. Also, what kind of idiot ask for comparison between a cropped and a non-cropped video? The level of idiocy is amazing. And the comparison is for an 8 bit encode and a 10 bit encode, not the m2ts and a single encode. Also, the point is that 10 bit is good for anime with dark scenes and gradients, not what you posted. Jesus...the incompetence and level of not understanding is really amazing. |
DmonHiroAug 2, 2021 11:59 AM
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DmonHiro said: Are you f-ing serious right now? Dear lord.... at least use an example that actually HAS gradients. As in ANIME. Also, what kind of idiot ask for comparison between a cropped and a non-cropped video? The level of idiocy is amazing. The black bars make zero difference. None at all. It's not what we're talking about. That's just you being dramatic over absolutely nothing. And the comparison is for an 8 bit encode and a 10 bit encode, not the m2ts and a single encode. Also, the point is that 10 bit is good for anime with dark scenes and gradients, not what you posted. Jesus...the incompetence and level of not understanding is really amazing. But they re-encode everything in 10-bit, including simplistically painted old anime that don't have gradients. Here is some gradation. Source:  https://mega.nz/file/525mwbjK#COWewIv0y6uga8sNL9_uP-dHDKGaAyUUG1l9fevLBnY 10-bit re-encode:  https://mega.nz/file/c2oWQRiT#PQ25AO8qw6m_bM3faN5AQenPCAxCXhH6XBoNxMpaAAQ 8-bit re-encode:  https://mega.nz/file/ArhAjBpI#DKG7q2qcrHjTLsG-Csvg7CWQfFDPMfRRNAm2lMVa3w0 You said it cannot be avoided, that it's inevitable, so where is this banding? |
EzekielAug 2, 2021 10:59 PM
| I don't give a crap about your example. Try it with anime, then we'll talk. But the simple fact that you refuse to use anime for an example says everything one needs to hear. And of course we encode EVERYTHING to 10bit. 10bit has TWO advantages: smaller file size and less color banding. Even if there's no need for less color banding (like if a show has very little dark colors), we're still getting a smaller file size. Why is this so hard for you to understand? We don't care about hardware compatibility. Never have, never will. tl;rd: reasons we use 10bit: smaller file size and less color banding. The banding issue varies from series to series, but 10bit will always give a smaller file size then 8bit. That's just how it works. So why wouldn't we use it? Again: We don't care about hardware compatibility. PS: Even in your crappy screenshots I can see the difference in quality by the markings on the upper part of the tree and the middle part where the bark is missing. If you can't see it, that's your problem. And before you try and be smart and say "HA! The 8bit encode is actually smaller then the 10bit encode!", that's normal for sections. But the overall movie (if the same settings are used) will almost always be smaller in 10bit. |
DmonHiroAug 3, 2021 10:14 AM
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DmonHiro said: I don't give a crap about your example. Try it with anime, then we'll talk. But the simple fact that you refuse to use anime for an example says everything one needs to hear. That's because I don't even have any modern 8-bit anime that haven't already been re-encoded or aren't in HDR. I looked in Cowboy Bebop, Memories and some of Miyazaki's movies and didn't find any good examples of gradients, not as good as this one at least. I've also replaced some of my older anime, like Akira and Ghost in the Shell, with newer 4K HDR versions, so they wouldn't work as 8-bit to 10-bit examples. It doesn't make any difference if it's Japanese or western. You asked for an example with gradients and I showed you one. Now you are just making excuses. And before you try and be smart and say "HA! Where was I ever being smart or confrontational or hostile or jesting? It's you that's been on the offensive and insulting the whole time. The 8bit encode is actually smaller then the 10bit encode!", that's normal for sections. But the overall movie (if the same settings are used) will almost always be smaller in 10bit. Seems like it wouldn't be smaller with the same settings, since it's the same colors, just spread over zeroes or blanks. I'll go and find out. Not for you, for myself. |
| Ridiculous that this guy yells at me for not using uncompressed (by the uploaders) 8-bit anime examples when anime fans re-encode almost everything. And I'm not downloading some shows I have no interest in just for an experiment. |
Ezekiel said: That's because I don't even have any modern 8-bit anime that haven't already been re-encoded or aren't in HDR. What the actual hell are you talking about? Is English even your first language? You're making no sense. Ezekiel said: this guy yells at me for not using uncompressed (by the uploaders) 8-bit anime. BDMV, have you ever heard of it? What the hell are you on about? Yes, you're supposed to use uncompressed (as much as a BD is uncompressed) video to make an encode. |
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DmonHiro said: Ezekiel said: That's because I don't even have any modern 8-bit anime that haven't already been re-encoded or aren't in HDR. What the actual hell are you talking about? Is English even your first language? You're making no sense. Ezekiel said: this guy yells at me for not using uncompressed (by the uploaders) 8-bit anime. BDMV, have you ever heard of it? What the hell are you on about? Yes, you're supposed to use uncompressed (as much as a BD is uncompressed) video to make an encode. Don't know what you're confused about now. I really think you're just being willfully obtuse so that you don't have to accept or make any in-depth arguments against any of what I post. But for the purposes of these tests, I need either a BDMV of an 8-bit Blu-ray or a remux of an 8-bit Blu-ray. I don't have any in my collection that I could immediately find good examples of gradients in, and anime fans barely make available in remuxes or BDMV any anime in my collection, which is why I used The Secret of Nimh. That you then say it's invalid just because it's not Japanese is so weak. |
Ezekiel said: That you then say it's invalid just because it's not Japanese is so weak. The whole point is that 10 bit doesn't really do much for anything other then for anime. That's why almost nobody else uses it except anime encoders. And even THEN, your 8 bit example still looks worse then your 10 bit example. Your own screenshots show that you are wrong. In any way, I am done with you. It's like arguing with a brick wall. |
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| I'm perplexed by the argument, and would like to know which voodoo magic makes 10 bits better for anime and anime only. I mean a part of the explanation is trying to be technical, the other part is magical weeaboo handwaving. I'd also like to know why people go all cray-cray over an encoding discussion and start throwing names at others as if they were personally attacked by comments on 10 bits lol. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
| 10 bit doesn't really do much for live action because film doesn't have a problem with gradients because it's, well.... real. 10 bit doesn't really do much for non-anime animation because most of US animation doesn't use gradients, just flat colors. Sure, there are exceptions, but it's not worth it if you don't want to use 10 bit. I only went "cray-cray" because stupidity annoys me. But it's pretty much a moot point since most anime encoders use 10 bit and have no intention of switching. |
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DmonHiro said: Ezekiel said: That you then say it's invalid just because it's not Japanese is so weak. The whole point is that 10 bit doesn't really do much for anything other then for anime. That's why almost nobody else uses it except anime encoders. And even THEN, your 8 bit example still looks worse then your 10 bit example. Your own screenshots show that you are wrong. In any way, I am done with you. It's like arguing with a brick wall. The whole point is irrelevant when you won't even accept the western animations that do have gradients and apparently would benefit from this. And you yourself said it should be used for all anime, both with and without gradients, after I pointed out that many don't have gradients, which makes the whole point even more irrelevant. BOTH re-encodes look worse. The main differences I see are the rope hugging the tree on the left, the rope in the foreground, some of the tree texture and her clothes. Both examples interpreted what was there differently, which is the nature of transcoding. I could do blind tests with untitled 8-bit and 10-bit re-encodes at otherwise the same settings and you would fail just as many as you'd pass. |
| No, the complaints of people like Ezekiel is that 10bit will not run on any other hardware other then a PC or a smartphone. No standard player supports 10bit. It would require a different chip, and the producers of players have no reason to invest in something like that because it's mostly only anime encoders that use it, and only for pirated content. Though I don't know if Ezekial is still bitching about that, or about something else, because that user in now on my ignore list. I'm done wasting brain cells and time on someone like that. Literally not worth the effort. |
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DmonHiro said: Though I don't know if Ezekial is still bitching about that, or about something else, because that user in now on my ignore list. What a baby. deg said: but ye a lot of fansubbers have their own custom encoder settings anyway and they do not use the presets and tunes of x264 and x265 for example so that maybe the complain of @Ezekiel lies since there is no standard encoding settings that pirates like fansubbers use so its not simple as 8-bit vs 10-bit when there are lots of encoder settings involved I don't even really have a problem with 10-bit. I only questioned the point of even doing this for 8-bit encodes, at which point DmonHiro got overly belligerent and also became annoyed at my western examples. The "magical weeaboo handwaving" description above is pretty apt. I asked about it on another forum and was able to get a few more informative answers. I was also encoding The Secret of Nimh in 10-bit and 8-bit to see if the 10-bit one really would be smaller as a full movie, but it took too long and my computer wouldn't go to sleep correctly, so I finally just stopped it. Like I said, I wish fansubbers didn't even re-encode. My examples above show how much quality is lost with both 8-bit and 10-bit at even high RF. The RF on those was 14 as I recall, in H265. I think Encoder Tune was set to Grain. "Very slow" for Preset. |
EzekielAug 4, 2021 3:09 PM
Ezekiel said: Like I said, I wish fansubbers didn't even re-encode. Wait... what? You're saying that what you were actually complaining about was the fact that fansubbers don't release unencoded files? Are you literally insane? A single episode on a bluray (m2ts) is around 5 GB. And until the BD comes out, the only other 2 sources are either .ts from Japanese TV or 1080p streams from CR/Funi/etc. The TS is always lower quality and nobody re-encodes the stream (except idiots who insist on having a HEVC encode or mini-encodes). So what exactly are fansubbers supposed to not re-encode? Seriously, what are you even talking about? |
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