What's up with people still using "he", "him" and "his" for the gems? (read first comment)

Hakaminah said:
In case someone's wondering TR used this copy paste:

"The idea of the gems being males is just too cringy with such an inconsistent argument people who would use the male pronoun on them just because the VAs also uses it when we all know how notorious Japanese are on using them on tomboys, lesbians, genderless and ambiguous characters all the time just proves they're the one turning this into a political SJW

What the show itself is implying completely dwarfs that weak inconsistent male pronoun argument"

4 times. At this point it's save to assume that it's a bot.

Hakaminah said:
Okay. 5 times now.

Hongu said:
I blame the anime character designers for this mostly. In the anime they do just look like flat women. But in the manga they truly do look androgynous so the pronouns people use make a lot more sense. I guess for the anime they wanted to moe-ify them more.

Hakaminah said:
@TsundeReaper that's actually more than a half

in your last comments you posted

3 times while only adding
Right back at you raving leftist SJWs you call other people out for being
"Nope, not even close"
"I'm just stating the obvious, not forcing anyone even after they couldn't refute my argument "

even your new comment seems to be part of your old one.

But if you mean the comment I quoted the last time it was actually the whole comment as seem below

"Lol sensei is not a gem smh" - part 1 , actual comment

And you sound like one those self proclaimed otaku who've just finished his 3rd anime" - part 2 , your daily portion of discrimination

or in case you mean the one after that, if you exclude what is contained in the 1st spoiler you're left with

"You clearly haven't read the whole thread if you're saying I have no argument, you ran dude, welcome back "
and
"Anyway you don't listen to anyone's argument anyway so I suggest you should just run away again"

Although I wasn't answering I didn't remove this thread from my watching list and I have read every reply which includes your copy paste and everyone's opinion (which I liked more than anything you wrote so far even if they don't share my point of view with exception to (Saint_Nepunepu).

You used the word "argument" more times that you actually used any original argument. There is nothing to refute because there is actually nothing here more than you being angry at other people for no real reason.

Hakaminah said:
@TsundeReaper so you want me to quote that missing 2/3 that I actually already posted?
Fine.

"Its simple logic really

The idea of the gems being males is just too cringy with such an inconsistent argument people who would use the male pronoun on them just because the VAs also uses it when we all know how notorious Japanese are on using them on tomboys, lesbians, genderless and ambiguous characters all the time just proves they're the one turning this into a political SJW

What the show itself is implying completely dwarfs that weak inconsistent male pronoun argument"

What now?
Do I need to repeat myself? Quote someone else? Rewatch all 9 ep to find whatever in your opinion the show is trying to imply?

Somali_Otaku said:
Yo Tsundere Reaper is clearly not all right in the head, someone just kill this thread. If they are not biologically male or female then trying to change everyone's opinions towards a limited perspective purely off the basis of it being "too cringy" to stand otherwise isn't the logical argument of any rational person. Cringiness is an emotional response. Using it to further your argument by pointing out the cringe and have other people feel the same way is a form of emotional persuasion, and a real shit attempt at it too considering all you've done besides not prove any cringe worthy evidence to support that is just insult anyone who hasn't agreed with you.

Also, if someone has posted the author himself considers the characters males, then isn't the argument over? Last time I checked the random forum dweller wasn't the creative mind behind this entire story and all the characters inhabititing it so trying to decry other's opinions as if you were the only authority isn't doing anything to further your cause.

Lastly, what were you expecting from this thread? For everyone to agree with you? This isn't an echo chamber, dissenting opinions have the ability to exist ere by its very nature so if you didn't have any evidence to support your claim then don't bother trying to justify your own bullshit.

But why even bother, I already said this shit couldn't have been made by a rational person to begin with. Someone PLEASE flag this thread it's going around in fucking circles. Also love how Tsundere Reaper shits on someone for the number of anime they've seen like seeing 89 anime is a large enough view history to become an anime expert.

Somali_Otaku said:
Yo Tsundere Reaper is clearly not all right in the head, someone just kill this thread.

Lastly, what were you expecting from this thread? For everyone to agree with you? This isn't an echo chamber, dissenting opinions have the ability to exist ere by its very nature

But why even bother, I already said this shit couldn't have been made by a rational person to begin with. Someone PLEASE flag this thread it's going around in fucking circles.

Somali_Otaku said:
Also, if someone has posted the author himself considers the characters males, then isn't the argument over?

Areku2021 said:
I agree with a lot of what you said but surely you can recognize that what I quoted forms a hypocrisy sandwich.

I don't like TC's demeanor or ''''argument'''' either but the grounds you're using to call for a thread lock is inconsistent with "this isn't an echo chamber".

I've seen a lot of variations of this account, some say the author gave clear answers and others say the answers were coy/evasive. Does anyone have a direct link?

Koukis said:


They're more like a troll based on their replies. No need to waste your time on them. Even if OP is not a troll, they clearly need other hobbies than worrying over other people using "wrong" pronouns for genderless fictional characters and insulting users when they don't reply back to them at the moment's notice.

midorimakuns said:
"They obviously look like girls"
Have you guys never ever in your life seen shotas? Or traps? This anime was popular with people who like pretty boys and shotas way before you people came along getting triggered that not eveything cute is a girl.

Also, fact is, the author picked very deliberately male language for them. from "brother" to "he, his" etc. Japanese doesnt need gendered language, yet she decided that this is what they call each other and themselves. If your narrow view on character designs is based on how your dick reacts to it, thats your problem. He him is correct, she her is wrong, they them is acceptable but in my opinion a cop out on crunchys side.

Somali_Otaku said:
Yo Tsundere Reaper is clearly not all right in the head, someone just kill this thread. If they are not biologically male or female then trying to change everyone's opinions towards a limited perspective purely off the basis of it being "too cringy" to stand otherwise isn't the logical argument of any rational person. Cringiness is an emotional response. Using it to further your argument by pointing out the cringe and have other people feel the same way is a form of emotional persuasion, and a real shit attempt at it too considering all you've done besides not prove any cringe worthy evidence to support that is just insult anyone who hasn't agreed with you.

Also, if someone has posted the author himself considers the characters males, then isn't the argument over? Last time I checked the random forum dweller wasn't the creative mind behind this entire story and all the characters inhabititing it so trying to decry other's opinions as if you were the only authority isn't doing anything to further your cause.

Lastly, what were you expecting from this thread? For everyone to agree with you? This isn't an echo chamber, dissenting opinions have the ability to exist ere by its very nature so if you didn't have any evidence to support your claim then don't bother trying to justify your own bullshit.

But why even bother, I already said this shit couldn't have been made by a rational person to begin with. Someone PLEASE flag this thread it's going around in fucking circles. Also love how Tsundere Reaper shits on someone for the number of anime they've seen like seeing 89 anime is a large enough view history to become an anime expert.

nyanthotep said:
Still wont change the fact that gems are a genderless with masculine pronounce. People will say he because it's canon pronounce.

LawLLawL said:
>Reply to three different people sequentially in separate posts. Multiple times.


No wonder there's no semblance of argument beyond "I don't agree with the author, you're wrong, lalalalalalalalala can't hear you."

TsundeReaper said:


You know not everyone bothers updating their lists right? *500+

I guess you must be new in MAL then

Plus this account is not even 1 year old

You're asically judging someone through their profile, proceeds to make a pointless essay and personally attacking me, nice try not gonna work and only refuting not even ⅓ of my argument

Here's my full argument:

Its simple logic really

The idea of the gems being males is just too cringy with such an inconsistent argument people who would use the male pronoun on them just because the VAs also uses it when we all know how notorious Japanese are on using them on tomboys, lesbians, genderless and ambiguous characters all the time just proves they're the one turning this into a political SJW

What the show itself is implying completely dwarfs that weak inconsistent male pronoun argument

P.s go try and refute that in full context not just the word cringy

And to the people who doesn't even have an individual argument of their own and just bandwagoning, you guys are welcome to refute my argument too

@Areku2021
@midorimakuns

midorimakuns said:
this GOT to be a troll, what a fucking tool lol

Somali_Otaku said:



*Sigh*...I'm just gonna say my piece before I just wash my hands of this clusterfuck once and for all. You want to think of that as you winning go right ahead, glad I could make your day better. Everyone's ego deserves a handjob every once in a while.

1. So you've seen 500+ anime...cool. Where do you want to collect your license to shit on other's lack of anime exposure based on the power scaling metric of have seen enough shows? Because now that you've seen 500+ its totally kosher now right?

2. If it was simple logic I highly doubt that many people would have such conflicting opinions to this degree. Or do you suppose that you're like the Isaac Newton of anime?

3. Yeah, its a personal attack. I don't think hammering on the same points counts as a debate from a rational person. Especially not when people have adressed those points. And all you've done is shit on them.

4. Your argument that involves Japanese people using male pronouns on being fenales purely off the basis of them having masculine traits (being lesbian and tomboys) while not taking into account their biological gender...something you call cringy...follows the same logic. The one you call really simple if you recall. So these gems...they look female...have feminine qualities...dress differently than most males regardless of their biological sexual reproduction systems...kinda like say...lesbians or tomboys...so thats your argument for using female pronouns right? Weird...its almost as if your argument for why they should be females...contradicts the whole nature of your argument on why they shouldn't be males...

5. I read the whole thread. Unlike you, walls of text aren't so much a dreaded task as you mske it out to be. Some people are capable of reading what amounts to be 3 pages of disjointed dialogue and still form an opinion that is opposite of yours believe it or not.

6. They're rocks. I know that they have been anthropomorphized to be something else, but you are really making this argument solely off of the basis that these ROCKS have gender, and sexuality when if you just think about it for a few seconds, isn't the case. I don't think the series was implying that you should think of them as male or female because I don't think the series creator was expecting that of the audience. Sucker Punch is an anime featuring a bunch of people swapping bodies between male and female but isn't a social commentary on the nature of gender. I don't think this show is either.

7. Finally, I love how you call people who disagree with you bandwagoners. If people agreed with you purely off the merit of your own argument I'd have a hard time believing you would give them a stiff arm approach to them. In this case, some people who were attracted to the subject matter of this thread, who saw your argument, and subsequent arguments that refute yours, chose the latter and formed their opinion off of that. Which I'm assuming is the point of threads like these but maybe I missed the fine print where that only applies when you agree with the OP.

So there you have it, saying rocks are female because they act that way and look that way, and to not use male pronouns because Japanese people are not credible sources for this due to them using male pronouns on females who act like males is your argument. You're more than welcome to say that's simple logic. You're more than welcome to even feel surprised others don't see it that way. Regardless, if you can't convince people off the merit off your argument it doesn't do your argument any favors to discredit the people you're trying to win over. And yes, my account is just over a year old, feel free to shit on much of a pleb I'm being right now. I'll have to find the license for that as well but in the meantime do you boo boo.

Hakaminah said:
@Somali_Otaku I actually reported TR back when this thread was still fresh because he was rude but for support just being an ass wasn't enough to remove or atleast edit his post so that it doesn't contain anything vulgar, spamming / trolling doesn't really count as "abuse / nudity / excessive profanity" either so there is nothing we can do except for blocking him.

LawLLawL said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

Your entire argument rests on personal observation, opinion, and ad hominem. Don't be surprised if all you get back is more of the same.

If you want to put it in better terms, everything you've said is still contained to being an inductive argument, with supporting statements limited to being those listed above, and not definitive facts when concerning the topic of fictional rock people. Ignoring something like canon, the author's very work which is being discussed right now, is not grounds for a proper deductive argument and a strong conclusive argument on your end.

You don't assert yourself as being right in order to be right, you prove it. That's how it works in formal debate, that's how it works in law, that's how it works in academia. All of these fields have their own... "playground" of rules to abide by, when discussing fictional events, entities, etc, the world they come from is that playground as there is no precedent for anything else. In the case of debate and academia, again weight of argument goes to facts, and there are no facts to be found in your inductive reasoning built on opinions and observations, but given with a complete disregard for the only thing which could remotely constitute a fact in this discussion: the author's original work.

In the legal context, you are not the person who determines what constitutes a fact in regards to gender classification of rocks, someone else can and will be despite your disagreement. Within the realm of fictional entities nobody bar the author holds the right to the role of determining what constitutes a fact, the world you are talking about is theirs and the author's take on things is indivisible from fact. This is the very idea which makes canon a concept in itself. If someone wrote a book about a world where the laws of physics are casually ignored, 1+1=/=2, or whatever else they felt like putting in it, the argument that these things are untrue doesn't hold in the context of that world. That's just not how fiction works, you can go outside and jump around all you want to prove gravity is real, you cannot apply that argument to someone else's intellectual property. Done.

If you still think this is a discussion, by all means continue. But you need to show more than just your opinion and observations. Your reasoning can be as long winded and trite or as compelling and well written as you believe it to be, until you point at something that says the author intended the gems to be female, they are not female; they simply have no gender, and in one case "he" even refers to himself by the distinctly male pronoun. Without determined genders, and either non-gender or male-leaning pronoun usage, there's no argument to be had for what could possibly give them a gender classification. They may look female, and many of them possess female sounding voices, but all of that is a byproduct of how we inherently perceive anthropomorphic entities. What determines the "natural" voice of a gem? As far as I can tell they're not born with a certain biological (geological?) sex determining feature which influences their voice. What makes that voice female as opposed to male that doesn't require referencing human standards for voices? Nothing. For all you know gems could all be male, and universally sound feminine to human ears because... fantasy, it's all a fantasy; someone else's fantasy at that. Spoiler: the manga has much more androgynous appearances to its characters, and is devoid of voice-determined gender classification, where do you go then to determine their gender?

Here I'll open up Lord of the Rings and ring up Tolkien in the grave because I think all his Orcs are male and I have to give him a piece of my mind. Maybe my argument based on what I saw in Lord of the Rings as a movie adaptation will outweigh his original ideas and canonical works, he goes and resurrects himself just to republish LotR with relevant changes, and then thank me for enlightening him on the matter.

Who knew it was so easy to tell an author to fuck off with their bullshit and listen to me, an enlightened being who sends others running at first sign of superior reasoning and cognition. Hold on let me find my fedora.

TsundeReaper said:
My argument already refuted that weak inconsistent argument.

Hakaminah said:


Your whole copy paste and the very start of this thread ("I can't take this anymore with the "he", "him" and "his"" + "The idea of the gems being males is just too cringy" ) could be shortened to:
"I dislike how other people use male pronouns on fictional characters, it makes me feel uncomfortable."

You said in post #24 "So why would you judge them through gender based pronoun" while later saying that it is "inconsistent" (post #32) while your argument is based only on how they look like to you.
See how wrong it is?
In case you don't:
You're judging them based on how they look like, it's exactly the same as people who call them using "he" based on pronouns they used in the anime or people using "them" based on the fact that they're genderless gems. Everything has it's base in something and since we're not talking about real people but fictional characters all pronouns mentioned are fine especially since they're not taken from thin air - they all have something people can use to support their opinions. You can't just say: "My way of thinking is right and everything else is wrong". They're all equal and no matter how much you dislike someone's choosing of words you can't just attack them because you don't like it.
I find it inappropriate to use female pronouns but I can understand why people use them and since so many people shared their opinion on gender neutral / male pronouns I'm pretty sure you can understand why some people decide to use them instead of female ones.

Also answering your last comment aimed at me

"Jfc you're still here?"
Yes.

"You quoted someone else's argument from a different thread"
I'm not native English speaker, sometimes it's hard for me to say something the way I want it and what KurouKuriko wrote, perfectly described how I feel about gems and people like you.
It was relevant to the very core of this thread.

"acting all cocky and end up running coz the argument you quoted was way off"
Looking at your comments, pretty much everyone who don't share your opinion has weak arguments, not 1, not 2 but 9 different people (myself included) have opinions they should change because they're not the same as yours.

"And yeah I'd like to help you call a moderator and see who's really spamming, trolling"
You're always free to report yourself, I won't stop you. PMing support seems to be actually the only way to delete account and if you want to - just do it.

"You're such a crybaby"
Do I need to comment how ironic it is?

"you even said you're not going back on this thread lol"
You got me here ¯_(ツ)_/¯

@midorimakuns thx for inspiration

Hakaminah said:

"I dislike how other peopleuse male pronouns on fictional characters, it makes me feel uncomfortable."

Hakaminah said:


4 times. At this point it's save to assume that it's a bot.

Hakaminah said:
Okay. 5 times now.

Hakaminah said:
@Somali_Otaku I actually reported TR back when this thread was still fresh because he was rude but for support just being an ass wasn't enough to remove or atleast edit his post so that it doesn't contain anything vulgar, spamming / trolling doesn't really count as "abuse / nudity / excessive profanity" either so there is nothing we can do except for blocking him.

TsundeReaper said:
Meanwhile you haven't even come close to having an actual argument to refute mine

TsundeReaper said:
You even go as low as reporting something isn't violating any rule just coz you can't win

Hakaminah said:

I did. Other people did too. Everything what was need to be said about this whole topic was said by now.


Telling someone to "stfu" aka "shut the fuck up" is something that counts as "excessive profanity" imo. This is PG-13 site, keep it clean.

TsundeReaper said:
lol can't win in an argument, goes on reporting, very desperate eh?

TsundeReaper said:
getting your feelings hurt by something as "stfu"

Hakaminah said:


Seems like you're missing something, I haven't reported your profile / you as an user but that single comment, hoping that it will be atleast edited for reason I already mentioned.



Yes, it may surprise you but there are sensitive people in this world who care about what others think of them.

Hakaminah said:

Telling someone to "stfu" aka "shut the fuck up" is something that counts as "excessive profanity" imo. This is PG-13 site, keep it clean.

Nostalgik said:
Good to know that the great pronoun debate has extended into the anime community itself, as if it wasn't cancerous enough already. Get. The. F**k. Out.
They look like girls: use "she"
They refer to themselves using a male pronoun: use "he" or "she". Whatever. No one cares.
They are freaking MINERALS or Stones or whatever: use "it".
It's completely irrelevant. Jeez.

TsundeReaper said:


Next time read the whole thead so you wouldn't look like a fool

Its simple logic really

The idea of the gems being males is just too cringy with such an inconsistent argument people who would use the male pronoun on them just because the VAs also uses it when we all know how notorious Japanese are on using them on tomboys, lesbians, genderless and ambiguous characters all the time just proves they're the one turning this into a political SJW

What the show itself is implying completely dwarfs that weak inconsistent male pronoun argument

PiErrado said:


When something seems some other thing, then that looks, acts or speaks like the first.
(p1) If something seems female, you shall use 'she'.
(p2) If something seems male, you shall use 'he'.

Let that be true.

Then we have two hipothesis:
(h1) One think the gems look female (therefore they seem female)
(h2) One think the gems look male (therefore they seem male)

So there are two hipothesis, and one will make them male, the other will make them female.

From that, we can conclude nothing. No pronoum to fit the gems yet.

...

There is no genderless pronoun in English. If the language does not support genderless, then genderless is unsolvable.

LawLLawL said:


This would check out if English truly lacked any form of usable genderless pronoun. It does not in a complete sense.

While not 100% acceptable from an academic perspective, the colloquial use of "they" in singular form has for some time been the de facto gender-neutral pronoun in the Anglosphere. While this is a third-person case, the precedent for bending the usage of something to fit a need is rather evident so long as it works (in this case it does and has for some time, despite being incorrect in a sense).

But that shouldn't matter, as even if there was no gender-neutral pronoun there is a precedent for referring to something which one's own language lacks a direct analogue to via translation: loan words. That's always been the case when, rather than making up a new term for their own usage, languages adopted a foreign word, phrase, or concept as-is or with some variance in usage to achieve the same end result. Putting English aside as an example, if whatever language in question was to be employed to describe gem people, and they lacked a genderless pronoun nor any usable equivalent, borrowing something directly from Japanese or another language would in fact be acceptable. That's why many languages the world over incorporate to some extent foreign words, English itself is a horrendously confusing collage of such borrowed words and phrases.

Saffron_entity said:
Why do people actually care so much about these gems being female? Are you trying to justify yourself when you wank off to Diamond on R34 or something? .

Literally, who cares. Male pronouns are more gender neutral than female pronouns in Japanese. Hell, even many "male" words in English are actually gender neutral. Dude, Man, etc are gender neutral. I'm not familiar with any "female" words that also have gender neutral applications (except bitch I guess...).

So it only makes sense to call gems male when that's the closest you can get to gender neutrality in terms of language. 99% of the people who watch this show aren't dead brain far-right/left who want to make everything about stupid identity politics either, so most of us understand that they're gender neutral even though they're called "he".

PiErrado said:
http://wals.info/valuesets/31A-eng
English is sex-based, so genderless people is not a real option.

It seems there were, in the past, genderless pronouns in English, but they are long gone.

So how do we know the right way to call a genderless one.
I don't. I think it is impossible to know the right way. Let me explain why I think that way:

When something seems some other thing, then that looks, acts or speaks like the first.
(p1) If something seems female, you shall use 'she'.
(p2) If something seems male, you shall use 'he'.

Let that be true.

Then we have two hipothesis:
(h1) One think the gems look female (therefore they seem female)
(h2) One think the gems look male (therefore they seem male)

So there are two hipothesis, and one will make them male, the other will make them female.

From that, we can conclude nothing. No pronoum to fit the gems yet.

But then one says. 'The gems DO look female, there is no way to one say they look male!'.
But well, we don't know that, looks depend on who is watching. Maybe I think they look male, what could you say about that? That I am lying? You see, there is no way to know for sure.

Trying to then define what male or female means, to then decide if they look one or another WILL be seen as sexist by lots of people. It is common to find people defending gender as self declared. As you can see with Gender Identity, just search about it in the internet if you doubt it.

When things are that way. There is no way to create a strong argument about it. So if they do not have sex, and do not identify themselves with any gender, we can NOT assert anything.

Who knows, you might look at me and find me looking like a female, but yet, I don't think you have the right to decide to call me 'she', let alone saying that I am female.

This is the explanaton for why I think the gender of the gems is unsolvable. I actually think any way to call them is (in)correct. Everyone is free to do it. There is no genderless pronoun in English. If the language does not support genderless, then genderless is unsolvable.

TsundeReaper said:


Reasons for using female pronounce:
1. Female hairstyles
2. Female personalities
3. Female clothings
4. Female voices
5. They all likes a completely male looking and sounding like gem (sensei)

Reasons for using the male pronoun:
1. their VAs uses the male pronoun (despite the fact that the Japanese are notorious on using the male pronoun on such characters like tomboys, lesbians, genderless and ambiguous)

5 to 1

And it's only reason is an inconsistent weak argument

Saffron_entity said:

1) Most of them have gender-neutral hairstyles. Bortz, Dia, Phos, Antarc, Zircon etc all have gender neutral hairstyles. Red Beryl has a pretty feminine modern hairstyle (I think?) but that's more or less it.
2) Yea Bortz, Phos, Antarc, Rutile, Cinnabar, Jade, Yellow Diamond, etc are totally feminine lol. You clearly have no grasp on masculinity. Hell, I'd say Bortz, Antarc and Cairn are more masculine by today's standards. Phos is very boyish. And these are all of the more important characters.
3)They literally wear a suit and shorts??? High heels aren't feminine. You clearly don't know an inkling of the history of clothing...
4) I doubt the author chose the voices.
5) I like my dad, does that mean I'm a girl now? Unless you've read the manga, you don't know the full relationship between all the gems and sensei.

Yea, 90% of your argument relies on an amazing level of ignorance and makes little to no sense. Feminine clothing and personality were the silliest of them all.
There are feminine personality traits, but most of the gems don't show them. Goshenite and Diamond are kinda feminine, but most just have an androgynous personality type and look androgynous (largely in the manga).

So that's 1 feminine, 1 masculine and 4 androgynous. Considering the original material has no voices, I think using masculine pronouns makes much more sense.

TsundeReaper said:


98% of your argument is poor observation, delusional revisionism and extremely opinionated

1. Really Bort, Phos and Dia? Lol "gender neutral hairstyles" you're CRAZY

2. Bort blushing when patted by Sensei, Phos liking sensei. Come on dude just saying they're not feminine ain't gonna work, give me some facts not opinionated BS you're wasting my time

3. And you deliberately didn't mention the wedding dresses, nice try buddy, even their uniforms are sailor like, the usual black suit is short shorts. Go wear a wedding dress and call yourself masculine lol short shorts too, those sailor like uniforms go wear those "masculine" lmao

4. Jfc, you think the had no communication with the studio, smfh at these noobs, feeling experts

5. I obviously didn't meant familial love, and you're obviously obsessed at twisting my words