Asuka [spoiler]

DarkCentauri said:
Don't question it bro, Anno gave up writing during this movie

closet_-_weeb said:

she can either be a clone of the real Asuka that died in the 2.0 movie and then she got cloned to merge her with angel power

smashsalmon said:

And still gave us peak

Viriathus said:

Is the peak in question about making the characters like parody of themselfs, not having half the conplexety (and issues) and incert a character who barely has any interaction to mc and steal the spotlight?

zeyrox1109 said:

i would say the ending makes perfect sense to me, though. Shinji just can't end up with rei, his literal mom clone. For asuka, in end of evangelion shinji had heated arguments with her and choked her twice during human instrumentality and at the red beach scene so if anything asuka x shinji would be a toxic relationship. Though i agree Mari is not as well written as the other two but she is the logical choice for shinji growth, pretty sure that's her purpose of existing in the rebuilds.

riqmoran said:

I find that to be a very bad justification of shoehorning a character into the story just to be a waifu. They have almost zero shared screentime let alone any semblance of a developed relationship.

To make matters worse, so much of the story focuses on the relationship between Shinji and Asuka only for it to fizzle out into nothing. Also the instances of choking you cited are from a separate continuity. This is a new story with a different ending. The events from the past story are not relevant. This is Asuka Shikinami, Asuka Soryu is a different character with a different story.

zeyrox1109 said:

They never got along that well in the rebuilds anyway in 3.0+1.0, she treated him and see him as garbage. Evangelion is not even a romance in the first place so mari is more like a symbol of shinji growth than your average romance love interest. I would say it kinda connected with the kaworu lines in 3.0+1.0 where kaworu said he met shinji again and again but still able to meet eachother by a book thar ties their fate together and that whole tv series flashback with long hair rei and shinji at the end where shinji just say something like "i won't reset the world again but start a new one with no eva" iirc. correct me if im wrong.

riqmoran said:

No i cant say i disagree with most of what you're saying. Although the "they never got along" misses the point of the second and third film which place a large focus on their evolving relationship. You are right that romance as a whole is absent in this tetralogy. But the most developed and complex relationship is still the one between Asuka and Shinji. Now, that doesnt mean they have to end up together. Thats not what im saying. My gripe is that a romantic pairing in an epilogue scene has to be earned. It has to be set up. And the closest thing to a setup for romance in this entire tetralogy is with Asuka and Shinji. Mari and Shinji has no build up.

I dont wanna get into the metanarrative and timeloop angle, it's a headache. But as it pertains to the character of Mari, I dont like that she only exists to be Shinji's blank slate fresh start whatever. And i don't think "but Asuka and Shinji is a toxic pairing" is a valid argument either. Because in fiction it is precisely the imperfect relationships that make for the best writing, not the perfect ones with absolutely nothing going on. There has to be tension, there has to be conflict. There cant just be nothing, then theyre together, the end. That doesnt work.

The romance is not at the top of my list of problems with these films, but from a writing perspective I don't like what was done here or that the only justification is that it's in service of the metanarrative.

riqmoran said:
Axtually, i lied. Mari does have a role beyond just being Shinjis waifu. But it makes things even worse.

Mari's primary role, narratively, is to mediate the strained relationship between Asuka and Shinji. Most of her interactions with Asuka are attempts to push her to come to terms with her feelings for Shinji. This is expounded on in the 3.0-120min supplementary material, where we learn that Mari pushes Asuka to believe Shinji is not dead and makes Asuka lead the mission to retrieve Shinji. And ofc it is also evident in the films themselves.
With Shinji, among Mari's notable interactions is a call to action and telling him that Asuka needs him to save her multiple times.

So not only does Mari not have any chemistry with Shinji, her main role throughout the films is acting as the wingman for Asuka and Shinji.

zeyrox1109 said:

well my point still stand that asuka still sees shinji as dead weight, she still care about him in a way but it's clear that she really hates him after his 14 years coma, you might say forcing a bread into shinji throat is some kind of tsundere affection that means she still somewhat care about him but honestly it just means more that they are not really getting along. they might secretly have a crush on eachother but the actions and attitudes say otherwise. I agree that mari being a plot device is a flaw but saying just because shinji x asuka doesn't resolved like you want it to therefore the rebuilds is bad, misses the point of evangelion themes of maturity and is kind of a stretch. The eva curse where the pilots remain a teen symbolize immaturity so yeah the rebuilds is going in that direction. A mature person would choose a stable relationship rather than a toxic one right? but yeah i still understand where you are coming from but the movies length is too limited to develop mari.

riqmoran said:

This is the part where I say Shikinami Asuka is an awful character in the last film. You and I both agree that the events of that film rule out any possibility of a relationship. The difference is i dont agree with her characterization at all. I mean she's pushing 30 yrs of age and she throws a fit of jealousy where she rips on Shinji for basically being willing to end the world for Rei but not for her. As if Shinji had any idea what he was doing when he caused the 3rd impact or as if he didn't threaten to stomp on NERV HQ when he thought Asuka died. And yet Asuka is mad at him for not doing enough for her. And she acts disgusted by him in every scene when in the previous film and its prologue (3.0-120min) she looks longingly at the moon and yearns to be with him. It's not consistent with her character at all. She is just an insufferable immature brat because the author couldn't think of a better way to write her besides tsuntsuntsuntsuntsuntsuntsundere. This isn't me saying it's bad writing because it didnt end how i wanted it, rather bc it very blatantly does not align with what was shown in the previous film.

And i know what youre gonna say bc you already said it. "But the themes tho. But the symbolism tho." Yeah, Im aware you could argue the curse of the Evas symbolizes immaturity. Where i fundamentally disagree is that i dont think symbolism should get in the way of or replace good writing. In discussing this film a very common theme you will see is that themes and symbolism are used as a crutch to defend every creative choice. But just because it has a meaning doesnt make it good writing. If the author has a message he wants to convey, the execution matters too. If you want shinji to end up with Mari and no evas, how you get there matters.

zeyrox1109 said:

well kinda? mari was like, "You still like shinji?" Asuka was like "yeah but used to". Pretty sure the rebuilds implied that asuka have matured way before shinji and moved on from him. Their dialouges with eachother is just asuka refusing that she have any affection for shinji whenever mari asked, mari does not meditate or try to bring the two together in a manipulative way.

zeyrox1109 said:

hot take: i genuinely enjoyed the shinji and gendo dynamic more than shinji and asuka in the rebuilds tbh. so yeah it's definitely a personal preference problem here. i mean asuka was never the main dynamic in the rebuilds, it's gendo imo.

so yeah, if my take on the movie still not convinced you it's a good movie then this debate is going nowhere, hell i also think shinji and misato have better dynamic than shinji and asuka in the rebuilds so yeah it's not a flaw for me. but more like anno decided to develop other characters rarher than asuka

riqmoran said:

That's not a hot take at all. I was wrong when i said Shinji and Asuka have the most complex relationship. Shinji and Gendo are the star of the show.

If you want to understand where Im coming from when i say Asukas characterization in the last film gave me whiplash, i encourage you to read the 3.0-120min manga. It is very short. Only takes like 4 minutes.

zeyrox1109 said:

okay i understand where you are coming from now but it's still meh, she didn't express anything like love towards shinji in that oneshot. If anything she wanted to move on from that event. Asuka was like "stop reminding me about him" to mari in that oneshot

riqmoran said:

Ok but thats very surface level. The whole entire thing with Asuka's characterization is that her words are contradicted by her actions. Yes, she says one thing, but you have to look at what she does. She's so contradictory that often she says the exact opposite of what she feels. Even in the last film, which I don't like, Asuka will tell Shinji to go die or something but then she goes through the trouble to watch him from afar.

In 3.0-120min, Asuka argues with Mari that there is no point in Mari wanting to wear a school outfit so that Shinji recognizes her once theyre reunited because Shinji is most definitely dead. These words are then contradicted by Asuka going through the trouble to patch up an old plugsuit from 14 years in the past with duct tape. She says theres no point, its stupid, shinji is dead, but then she does it anyway bc she wants to believe she can see him again but she cant admit it.

This is also clearly the intent behind Mari's actions. Mari is playing Asuka like a fiddle here.

riqmoran said:

I find that to be a very bad justification of shoehorning a character into the story just to be a waifu. They have almost zero shared screentime let alone any semblance of a developed relationship.

To make matters worse, so much of the story focuses on the relationship between Shinji and Asuka only for it to fizzle out into nothing. Also the instances of choking you cited are from a separate continuity. This is a new story with a different ending. The events from the past story are not relevant. This is Asuka Shikinami, Asuka Soryu is a different character with a different story.

Viriathus said:

Exactly. The entire thing could be, they overcome their "hedgehog dilema" and finally stay together in a healthy way like the entire series around them had been for 15 years before the movie.

But there is a theory that the Rebuilts are based on a old Japanese sci fi movie, in which the lovers get together guided by a cat, Mari represents that cat who is going to guide Shinji to Asuka.

riqmoran said:

I think that theory would be easy to substantiate with the events of the 4 films, since i do think Mari's primary role in the story is facilitating the relationship between Asuka and Shinji. I hadnt heard of that theory before but it doesnt seem implausible.

And yeah the last film could have definitely taken the Asuka subplot in the direction of overcoming her character flaws rather than regressing to the worst version of herself we have ever seen. That is what i had in mind when i saw the ending of 3.0 with Asuka leading Shinji by the hand and taking over Misato's role from EoE. Obviously it didnt happen.