Johan Liebert diagnose

Oct 25, 2023 8:46 AM

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Jul 2018

564106

In the following I will diagnose Johan medically, as a psychiatrist/psychotherapist would, and describe what therapy would look like for him.

I am not a psychiatrist/psychotherapist, so no one should take this diagnosis seriously.

TLDR is at the bottom.

You don't have to tell me this post is to long in the comments, I know that, I wrote it ;).

Minor spoilers ahead!!!

I'm not sure if the Anime or the Manga mention Johan's illness at any point. As far as i remember, they only ever talk about the "Monster".
This "Monster" in Johan, or the reason why Johan has this evil side in him, is because Johan has an Antisocial personality disorder or ASPD.
Typical of this personality disorder are irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations, lack of guilt and low empathy for others. There is often a low threshold for aggressive or violent behaviour, a low frustration tolerance and a lack of learning ability.
In films and on social media, people with this personality disorder are also called Sociopaths or Psychopaths.
Even though the terms psychopathy/sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder have considerable similarities and are not usually clearly distinguished, especially in common usage, it is necessary to distinguish psychopathy/sociopathy from APSD.
Although those disorders correlate significantly with each other and show clear overlaps in terms of their characteristics, they are not to be regarded as identical. Psychopathy is usually considered a particularly severe form of antisocial personality disorder. Sociopathy, on the other hand, refers to patterns of behaviour that are generally considered by society to be irregular, antisocial or criminal. Often Sociopaths have learned these behaviour patterns in their (former) social environment or were even dependent on them for survival there. Like Johan during his stay in "Kinderheim 511".
Nevertheless, I would argue that Johan is more of a psychopath than a sociopath. Psychopaths can be socially adapted and psychiatrically and forensically completely inconspicuous for a long time, have a normal or even successful biography and sometimes even reach high leadership positions through special ambition, calculation and striving for power, like Johan (establishing an underground Banking system, plot to inherit Schuwald's Fortune -> control the German economy).
Sociopaths are not able to do this, because they often act impulsively and are always "on the move". By that I mean new jobs, new relationships, new city simply because they cannot maintain long-term relationships due to their behaviour.
Besides, Johan showed "dark" behavioural traits even before he arrived at "Kinderheim 511", i.e. from birth as is assumed about Psychopaths. Otherwise, General Wolf would not have sensed these "dark" traits and sent Johan to the children's home when he first met him at the Czech border.
Why Johan was born with ASPD has something to do with his genes and underdeveloped areas of the brain that make Humans compassionate and conscientious but people with ASPD not. But I won't go into any more detail about neuroscience because I find it hard to understand. If you are interested in that kind of thing just look it up on YouTube, there are some interesting videos like "Inside the Brain of a Psychopath".

Let's move on to some clear examples of ASPD in the Anime/Manga.
Although Johan doesn't display every single traditional symptom of ASPD he has more than enough of them to be diagnosed with it.
A few of those being arrogance a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated and cynical and recurring problems with the law, including criminal Behavior. But there are five that he displays that are essentially perfect if you could call them that, which really show that he's suffering from ASPD.
The first of those being a lack of empathy and remorse.
Johan is a person who is entirely without empathy. He handles the lives of others with about as much care as one might handle garbage and he treats people as nothing more than tools to be used and then discarded in order to advance his dark aims. And say for perhaps his willingness to keep Dr. Tenma alive, there is little evidence that Johan ever considers the feelings of another person and he certainly never displays any remorse for any number of the horrid actions he takes.
I said I'd be giving examples of these symptoms in order to better understand just how they apply to Johan but honestly there isn't one instance of his lack of empathy appearing that's worth noting more than any other as again there is not a single time that Johan ever shows himself to be empathic or remorseful for any of the crimes he commits, and therefore examples of this symptom are readily apparent within nearly every action that he takes over the course of this series.
However the next set of symptoms which I've chosen to analyze, because they're all related to Johan's talents as a manipulator, are a different story as some of the examples we can find associated with them really drive home just how horrifying this man really is.
Those symptoms being: The disregard for right and wrong, persistent lying or use of deceit to exploit others, using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure and repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty.
Now Johan isn't just a talented manipulator, he's a master at it and this designation more than his horrible crimes and lack of empathy is what makes him such a terrifying character. And the first time we experience the sight of him is when he instigates the massacre at "Kinderheim 511".
Now this was the first verifiable instance of Johan using something that isn't part of his ASPD but Central to his personality.
Nonetheless his innate leadership skills and although Johan is a person suffering from ASPD he shows himself to be adept at understanding the inner workings of humanity.
As when Hartman asked what he had done in order to get these 50 people to kill one another, Johan replied: That he threw a scrap of cloth doused in oil into an open flame and that hate is born when people come together and that he only poured a little oil on it which is, Hartman exclaims to Tenma during their exchange, a remarkable observation for a boy of only 10 years old.
And this ability to understand the inner workings of the darker aspects of humanity is what enables Johan to manipulate people who are already immersed in darkness.
This is exemplified in things like his ability to inspire fanatical loyalty in his few followers, such as Roberto or Kristoff. But a great example of just how minutely and toony he is with the darkness within others is when we see him coaxing people into doing what he wishes with simple suggestions. Like the three separate serial killers in Frankfurt, who murder three people that need to die for his plan after Johan writes their names in the sand in a park. Or when he convinces Reinhardt Dinger, the taxi driver who sheltered Johann and his sister, after they escaped from the hospital, to begin killing people, he views as scum.
However it's his ability to manipulate largely innocent people that makes Johan infinitely more terrifying.
As although being able to win criminals over to your side with mere suggestions or your presence alone, is quite the feat. It's another thing entirely to be able to do
the same with innocent People. And Johan is able to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat by again, using his intimate knowledge of the darker side of humanity to subtly, or not so subtly convince people to do what he wishes them to do.
Not only that but he is able to so accurately slip into a role of normalcy that should be near impossible for a person so holy representative of ASPD. As though many people who suffer from this disorder and engage in depravity are able to blend into society for a Time, the cracks eventually begin to show and their facade is revealed.
But Johan, he is a able to fill this role and give off the impression that not only is he harmless but nearly perfect, a highly intelligent, amiable and beautiful man who captivates everyone around him with all aspects of his person luring unsuspecting victims in with the honeyed poison flowing from his mouth.
This is what enables Johann to commit some of the most horrendous and heart-wrenching crimes we see in this series. Like the massacres at "Kinderheim 511" and Ruhenheim.
But there are many instances of Johan using his talents to manipulate the innocent. Like when he has several children who he's volunteered to take care of at an orphanage essentially kill themselves by playing a suicide game, where the winner becomes one of the chosen, just like Johan.
And the kicker here is that he does this simply for enjoyment.
This wouldn't be the only instance of Johan playing with the minds of children for his own Amusement. Though as he does much the same to Milosz, when he convinces him to to go and find his mother to determine whether or not anyone wants him. And knowing that he won't find that, Johan ensures that he'll fall to a state of despondency and kill himself.
Though Grimmer fortunately saves him from doing so. There are more examples of this Behavior to be found in this story but these few examples are more than enough to drive home how Johan's talents as a master manipulator and all these components of his ASPD are truly horrific.

Now that we've gotten a handle on how Johan developed into who he is as well as what makes him tick it's now time for us to examine how this can be treated.
In general, treatment is difficult because social behaviour disorder usually occurs with other disorders, e.g. addictive disorders, an affective disorder or psychopathy.
Accordingly, several treatment approaches are necessary, including psychotherapy, depth psychological counselling or cognitive behavioural therapy. The success of these forms of therapy depends on the severity of the individual case, but most cases are less likely to be treatable. Taking psychotropic drugs also seems to do little to effectively and permanently change antisocial personality disorder.
Research has shown that people with antisocial personality disorder are certainly changeable, but only if they have not already become violent criminals. Above all, the pathological lack of fear complicates the treatment as well as the learning processes that the patient has to go through.
In addition, the patient's lack of emotional empathy is a negative indicator that affects the psychotherapeutic exchange.
Furthermore, it may well happen that the patient tries to manipulate the therapist or shows complete resistance by means of monosyllabic answers. Due to the low level of subjective suffering, the patient has little motivation for therapy and externalises any responsibility.
It is also not uncommon for the patient to try to dominate or engage in power struggles with the therapist in order to maintain a sense of control.
This is roughly how Therapy looks for someone with ASPD. Unfortunately, I have to admit that I don't see any way to treat Johan in any promising way. Not only are the chances low from the start because Johan is a Psychopath, but at the same time he is probably the most charming and gifted manipulator ever written in Anime/Manga. He would probably manage to wrap every therapist around his finger and could then run amok again, because no one can tame him. So it's really not exaggerated in any way when he is constantly referred to as "The Devil" or "Evil" in the Anime/Manga.
The only way I can think of to deal with Johan is to keep him in solitary confinement 24/7, in a cell with no windows, no light, no contact with guards, other prisoners, visitors or anyone else. However, such behaviour goes against any values one should have as a human being, because such behaviour would be constant torture. And no one deserves such a thing.

This concludes what I wanted to say in this post.

TLDR: Johan has a severe case of antisocial personality disorder, you can call him a Psychopath (not a Sociopath), there is no way to treat him successfully, he is pure Evil.

I want to remind you guys again I am no psychiatrist or psychotherapist so do not take anything I said seriously. I'm just interested in Psychotherapy and that's why I write essays like that when im bored.

Furthermore English is not my first language so please forgive me for my grammar and language mistakes.

Bye and have a great day!

Oct 25, 2023 11:04 AM

V1P3R0P

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Mar 2021

3084

You too, Have a great day!!!

Oct 25, 2023 11:18 AM

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564106

Reply to V1P3R0P

You too, Have a great day!!!

@V1P3R0P You're so funny

Oct 25, 2023 12:31 PM

pakiweeb42

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Jul 2021

ohhh boy ohhh dear god....my man you need to see a psychiatrist if you're writing this much about a fucking psychopathic x serial killer x manipulator i think you need to touch some grass bro....

Oct 25, 2023 12:47 PM

removed-user

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564106

Reply to pakiweeb42

ohhh boy ohhh dear god....my man you need to see a psychiatrist if you're writing this much about a fucking psychopathic x serial killer x manipulator i think you need to touch some grass bro....

@pakiweeb42 Putting time and effort into a passion project is weird?

Oct 25, 2023 1:15 PM

jam3s_sunderland

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Oct 2020

Pretty cool, im glad you took the time out of your day to do this. As a aspiring psychiatrist, reading this will be interesting when I start doing film research eg Joker, Survivor and more alike.

Oct 25, 2023 2:44 PM

MikeHoncho97

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Aug 2012

This was actually pretty well written

Oct 25, 2023 2:46 PM

YanYan

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Aug 2021

3376

okay so Johan ----- diagnose

brain overloading

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Oct 25, 2023 2:53 PM

Sports_Friday

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Mar 2018

197

Well I didn't read whole thing but I don't think he lacks empathy completely more like he lacks sympathy and is just manipulative in a way that the story demands.

Training to become a real magical girl

Oct 26, 2023 7:11 PM

#10

dandyducksauce

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Nov 2020

I agree with the diagnosis but people with aspd aren’t “pure evil”, they develop the disorder due to trauma as a way to protect themself

Oct 28, 2023 7:23 AM

#11

removed-user

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564106

Reply to dandyducksauce

I agree with the diagnosis but people with aspd aren’t “pure evil”, they develop the disorder due to trauma as a way to protect themself

@dandyducksauce

PsychVstar said:
Even though the terms psychopathy/sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder have considerable similarities and are not usually clearly distinguished, especially in common usage, it is necessary to distinguish psychopathy/sociopathy from APSD.
Although those disorders correlate significantly with each other and show clear overlaps in terms of their characteristics, they are not to be regarded as identical. Psychopathy is usually considered a particularly severe form of antisocial personality disorder. Sociopathy, on the other hand, refers to patterns of behaviour that are generally considered by society to be irregular, antisocial or criminal. Often Sociopaths have learned these behaviour patterns in their (former) social environment or were even dependent on them for survival there.

1. You are referring to sociopaths
2. I didn't call people with ASPD "pure evil", I called Johan "pure evil"
3. Next time when you want to comment on something make sure its not obvious that you just read the TL;DR

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Johan Liebert diagnose

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