Attack on Titan
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Mar 4, 2022 4:52 PM
#1
| Like when i was boring and seeing aot posts in media social, i saw a post that talk about character and Floch was in the post. I've decided to see the comment and most of them unironically being reflection of what they hated the most. It was about being a jerk and judgemental to Floch, a fictional character. Most of them saying that he deserve to die(some of them even said that they will enjoy his death just because he's opposing their idea for being genocidal maniac). Isn't labelling certain party with A or B is something an open minded person which in this case Alliance unnecessary to do? But why it's become common, if not, become a trend for someone to have a moral highground just because certain party doing things? Isn't cycle of hate comes from that? |
Mar 4, 2022 5:07 PM
#2
| google paradox of tolerance "in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance" |
Mar 4, 2022 5:12 PM
#3
deg said: google paradox of tolerance "in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance" Well yeah i know Karl Popper, that's my point honestly. The society being intolerant of intolerance will create another loop thus indeed makes a paradox. Is it hypocrisy or in the end everyone need to be susume and fuck one side so society of tolerancy will be standing strong? |
Mar 4, 2022 6:06 PM
#4
| "being reflection of what they hated the most" I suppose you mean being hypocrites. I don't think Floch is a hypocrite, he's rather very straight forward. The world hates Eldians, what should they do according to Floch? Kill everyone, including people who don't hate them, raze everyone and everything down. People are judging Floch for having these immoral ideals. That's something we do every day. People get punished and go to prison for what we, as a society, deem evil or immoral. Does that makes us hypocrites? Saying that they'll enjoy his death is taking it a bit too far, but he deserves punishment because in a sense he thinks he deserves to live more than others. |
| I sometimes forget to finish my sentences. |
Mar 4, 2022 6:28 PM
#5
samashi20 said: "being reflection of what they hated the most" I suppose you mean being hypocrites. I don't think Floch is a hypocrite, he's rather very straight forward. The world hates Eldians, what should they do according to Floch? Kill everyone, including people who don't hate them, raze everyone and everything down. People are judging Floch for having these immoral ideals. That's something we do every day. People get punished and go to prison for what we, as a society, deem evil or immoral. Does that makes us hypocrites? Saying that they'll enjoy his death is taking it a bit too far, but he deserves punishment because in a sense he thinks he deserves to live more than others. Oh jeez, youre anime only, i should atleast makes it a little no-spoilery. Yes, i was trying to say that theyre being reflection of what they hated the most, thus by this matter theyre turning into hypocrites. Actually, for the point of "What should they do according to Floch", it's....  It was his idea, he's just agreeing with him. Besides, it's more like something that should/will be done at once, not a slow one like invading and battling each one of them differently. It was object-focused(which is world as a whole) rather than subject-focused(certain people). And actually it's fine and understandable that people opposes Floch idea because it's indeed controversial, but that's not my main problem. It was about community being overly-extra and justify themselves doing them extras, being literally no difference. You got a point in a prison-thing but that take is only applied for us readers that try to see messages. But not in the Attack on Titan narrative or story, the choice is reduced whether you choose to be understanding like frfr which is far too idealistic or things taking that blatant dualism route. Plot driven themselves to the point it's ended up as blatant dualism, whether one beating another to rewrite moral and law or keeping them like they always used to be. So, by this point, if people(community) choose to see this throught blatant dualism take, that makes both of them in the same ground and labeling/looking down at each other is completely pointless. War is ugly indeed. |
Mar 4, 2022 6:31 PM
#6
| I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. |
Mar 4, 2022 6:42 PM
#7
Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. |
Mar 4, 2022 6:53 PM
#8
rach1m4n said: I get it what you're trying to say. Your point is also validated by Sergeant's Gross dialogue of people wanting to see violence unless it hurts them. It's human nature. That's the beauty of this show. It brings out the human nature not just in the show but also in the audience too. And someone above said Floch is straight-forward but few episodes back he actively supports submission to Eldia while talking about freedom. He is a hypocrite too. Everyone in the show is a hypocrite. The new ending "Akuma no ko" also has lyrics like " Why are we full of contradictions?" The cycle of violence thing seems petty when you find that humans purposely want to see violence. During ancient times, we had gladiator fighting, now we have MMA, wrestling, movies and TV.Like when i was boring and seeing aot posts in media social, i saw a post that talk about character and Floch was in the post. I've decided to see the comment and most of them unironically being reflection of what they hated the most. It was about being a jerk and judgemental to Floch, a fictional character. Most of them saying that he deserve to die(some of them even said that they will enjoy his death just because he's opposing their idea for being genocidal maniac). Isn't labelling certain party with A or B is something an open minded person which in this case Alliance unnecessary to do? But why it's become common, if not, become a trend for someone to have a moral highground just because certain party doing things? Isn't cycle of hate comes from that? |
on Mar 4, 2022 6:53 PM
#9
rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again:  So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. |
Mar 4, 2022 7:13 PM
#10
sammymahesh said: rach1m4n said: I get it what you're trying to say. Your point is also validated by Sergeant's Gross dialogue of people wanting to see violence unless it hurts them. It's human nature. That's the beauty of this show. It brings out the human nature not just in the show but also in the audience too. And someone above said Floch is straight-forward but few episodes back he actively supports submission to Eldia while talking about freedom. He is a hypocrite too. Everyone in the show is a hypocrite. The new ending "Akuma no ko" also has lyrics like " Why are we full of contradictions?" The cycle of violence thing seems petty when you find that humans purposely want to see violence. During ancient times, we had gladiator fighting, now we have MMA, wrestling, movies and TV.Like when i was boring and seeing aot posts in media social, i saw a post that talk about character and Floch was in the post. I've decided to see the comment and most of them unironically being reflection of what they hated the most. It was about being a jerk and judgemental to Floch, a fictional character. Most of them saying that he deserve to die(some of them even said that they will enjoy his death just because he's opposing their idea for being genocidal maniac). Isn't labelling certain party with A or B is something an open minded person which in this case Alliance unnecessary to do? But why it's become common, if not, become a trend for someone to have a moral highground just because certain party doing things? Isn't cycle of hate comes from that? This! Human nature and desire to see continous conflicts and violence is the reason why they dooming themselves each time theyre passing. This is the main reason why i was into full-scale Rumbling if full diplomacy is deemed to fail horribly. By killing everyone, the existence of hate or causa prima of the conflict is nowhere to be seen, all left is Paradis that live in their Utopia(with traitors being alienated from Paradis, or simply killing them, and having strong charismatic government to rule the society and the masses). |
Mar 4, 2022 7:22 PM
#11
Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). |
Mar 4, 2022 7:38 PM
#12
rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. |
XilverMar 4, 2022 7:53 PM
Mar 4, 2022 7:40 PM
#13
rach1m4n said: Even if they would do the full Rumbling, there will still be conflicts and eventually Eldia will vanish. There is nothing such as Utopia. Strong charismatic governments have literally fallen harshly in the history of mankind. The conflict will only end when there is just a single person in the whole world.sammymahesh said: rach1m4n said: Like when i was boring and seeing aot posts in media social, i saw a post that talk about character and Floch was in the post. I've decided to see the comment and most of them unironically being reflection of what they hated the most. It was about being a jerk and judgemental to Floch, a fictional character. Most of them saying that he deserve to die(some of them even said that they will enjoy his death just because he's opposing their idea for being genocidal maniac). Isn't labelling certain party with A or B is something an open minded person which in this case Alliance unnecessary to do? But why it's become common, if not, become a trend for someone to have a moral highground just because certain party doing things? Isn't cycle of hate comes from that? This! Human nature and desire to see continous conflicts and violence is the reason why they dooming themselves each time theyre passing. This is the main reason why i was into full-scale Rumbling if full diplomacy is deemed to fail horribly. By killing everyone, the existence of hate or causa prima of the conflict is nowhere to be seen, all left is Paradis that live in their Utopia(with traitors being alienated from Paradis, or simply killing them, and having strong charismatic government to rule the society and the masses). |
Mar 4, 2022 8:47 PM
#14
Xilver said: I really wanted someone to bring this point up. This is exactly why I think Eren is after revenge. He's so consumed by the hatred he carries.. Instead of sacrificing either one of them, the dude is sacrificing the world. I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Like on one hand, he's the reason why Historia's entire family dies, and on the other hand he doesn't want to sacrifice her. Like what? |
| I sometimes forget to finish my sentences. |
Mar 4, 2022 8:51 PM
#15
Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. |
Mar 4, 2022 8:53 PM
#16
samashi20 said: Like on one hand, he's the reason why Historia's entire family dies, and on the other hand he doesn't want to sacrifice her. Like what? Not only that, he put most of his friends under immediate danger in heavily controlled enemy territory in Marley, as a result Sasha died. And he participated in the plan with the wine, so Levi, Pyxis and etc were all put at very high risk of dying. He was basically ready to sacrifice them all, just because he didn't want to go with the mini-rumbling plan. |
Mar 4, 2022 9:03 PM
#17
RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying "i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia", for reasons only Ymir knows, or Isayama, or actually nobody honestly. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it |
XilverMar 4, 2022 9:06 PM
Mar 4, 2022 9:23 PM
#18
Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. |
Mar 4, 2022 9:38 PM
#19
RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. |
XilverMar 4, 2022 9:46 PM
Mar 4, 2022 11:05 PM
#20
Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. Except that original Eren's motivations aren't that hard to understand? He hates the Marleyans for their discrimination and irrational hatred towards Eldians. They are taking away his freedom by forcing him to live inside the island, so he will take theirs away.   Are these two panels really that hard to understand? It is ingrained into his brain since birth that he is free, and thus, he will not allow anyone to take his birth right from him. That's really as simple as his motivations get. From the latest ED too, "I found out that inside of me was a child of the Devil". It's just who he is. Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the timeline after the time-jump. Eren wanted to save Historia before Zeke and Yelena entered the scene. Historia was the only royal blood they had, and they would need to turn her into a Titan Shifter for the Mini-Rumbling (which she directly rejected in the Reiss Arc). It goes against her free will, and that's why Eren does not want that to happen. So, he makes her get pregnant. Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along. Historia is safe and Eren's motivations aren't about her after that point, but rather about doing the right thing now that he had secured one friend's future. Eren knows what's going to happen, and now his motivations change. Historia is safe, so he needs to focus on the others now (Why Historia first? Because she was the only one in direct danger until that point). He works to correct his original mistakes from the future by trying to work around his determined future. The problem is that he does not want the Rumbling to happen, and at the same time, the Rumbling is exactly what he desires deep in his heart. By the way, if Historia's character is in fact incomplete, could you please elaborate on how? What exact part of her development was stil left? What more was teased or outright told, but never explored? Go ahead, I'll wait. Also, - The Survey Corps deciding to go outside to study the Titans instead of listening to popular opinion and stay inside - Pyxis deciding to save Eren and use his potential instead of directly eliminating the very obvious threat - Eren deciding to listen/not listen to Levi Squad during the Female Titan Arc - Survey Corps deciding to overthrow the government instead of continuing to live in their manufactured lies - Historia deciding to be herself instead of living the perfect life her father created for her - Levi deciding to let Erwin die instead of picking the sensible choice to save him for future missions Attack on Titan has always been about the few people who use their freedom to make the right choices instead of the choices which make most sense. It is nothing new. Cattle in a farm? Boils down to how the cattle has no choice to leave and lives in constant fear of the farmers. Free Will vs. Overlord's Decision. Ancestral Sins? Literally about how you look at someone. As who they were born, or who they are right now. Determined Mindset vs. Free Thinking. I don't agree with what OG Eren did. He was a psychopath and a mass murderer. The Eren of our story did the best he could with his losing hand. The Rumbling was definitely the worst option out of the three, but literally the only one they had. No matter how much he tried, the Euthanasia and Mini-Rumbling would never happen |
Mar 5, 2022 12:26 AM
#21
RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. Except that original Eren's motivations aren't that hard to understand? He hates the Marleyans for their discrimination and irrational hatred towards Eldians. They are taking away his freedom by forcing him to live inside the island, so he will take theirs away. Are these two panels really that hard to understand? It is ingrained into his brain since birth that he is free, and thus, he will not allow anyone to take his birth right from him. That's really as simple as his motivations get. From the latest ED too, "I found out that inside of me was a child of the Devil". It's just who he is. Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the timeline after the time-jump. Eren wanted to save Historia before Zeke and Yelena entered the scene. Historia was the only royal blood they had, and they would need to turn her into a Titan Shifter for the Mini-Rumbling (which she directly rejected in the Reiss Arc). It goes against her free will, and that's why Eren does not want that to happen. So, he makes her get pregnant. Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along. Historia is safe and Eren's motivations aren't about her after that point, but rather about doing the right thing now that he had secured one friend's future. Eren knows what's going to happen, and now his motivations change. Historia is safe, so he needs to focus on the others now (Why Historia first? Because she was the only one in direct danger until that point). He works to correct his original mistakes from the future by trying to work around his determined future. The problem is that he does not want the Rumbling to happen, and at the same time, the Rumbling is exactly what he desires deep in his heart. By the way, if Historia's character is in fact incomplete, could you please elaborate on how? What exact part of her development was stil left? What more was teased or outright told, but never explored? Go ahead, I'll wait. Also, - The Survey Corps deciding to go outside to study the Titans instead of listening to popular opinion and stay inside - Pyxis deciding to save Eren and use his potential instead of directly eliminating the very obvious threat - Eren deciding to listen/not listen to Levi Squad during the Female Titan Arc - Survey Corps deciding to overthrow the government instead of continuing to live in their manufactured lies - Historia deciding to be herself instead of living the perfect life her father created for her - Levi deciding to let Erwin die instead of picking the sensible choice to save him for future missions Attack on Titan has always been about the few people who use their freedom to make the right choices instead of the choices which make most sense. It is nothing new. Cattle in a farm? Boils down to how the cattle has no choice to leave and lives in constant fear of the farmers. Free Will vs. Overlord's Decision. Ancestral Sins? Literally about how you look at someone. As who they were born, or who they are right now. Determined Mindset vs. Free Thinking. I don't agree with what OG Eren did. He was a psychopath and a mass murderer. The Eren of our story did the best he could with his losing hand. The Rumbling was definitely the worst option out of the three, but literally the only one they had. No matter how much he tried, the Euthanasia and Mini-Rumbling would never happen He doesn't hate Marleyans, and doesn't think their fears are irrational. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yeah that's from last chapter where he has fried brains and isn't sure why he did the rumbling in the first place, he just has some abstract idea that he followed. Basically it was just fate at the end, the same reason he killed his mom, he just lived outside of time and was the slave to causal relationships. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes, stop trying to make me like the ending, i'm not trying to make you hate it. I'm arguing about specific points. You are absolutely incorrect about everything you just said about timeline. This is how it goes: - Historia rejects becoming the founding titan and eating Eren, at that point in time no one knows about there being humanity outside of walls, there is no known threat from any outside civilizations. - They find out about the history of humanity and Eldia, they find out the world hates Eldians, Eren also finds out that he has a half brother that is of royal blood - Eren finds out that he can use the fouding titan's power if he uses Historia, he keeps it a secret from MPs and everyone in general because he is concerned about her safety - Eren unlocks the memories of the future - Zeke tells everybody about it, Eren confesses - They meet with Kiyomi, talk about the 50 year plan, 3rd point of that plan comes up, Historia agrees to the plan in front of everyone, Eren starts raging and says they must look for alternatives - Some time after while they're building the railway Hange comes up and says the negotiations aren't going anywhere, Eren asks "does that mean we have no choice but to sacrifice Historia", he isn't happy - Some time after Eren meets up with Yelena, comes up with the plan - He goes to Historia, the latter says that it's okay she is fine with the 50 year plan and that is the only way, to which Eren responds with i shit you not "Even if it's okay for you, it's not okay for ME", and then goes on about how he won't let them to turn her into a breeding sow and feed her to her children. Historia agreed to the plan, she gave her consent, it's Eren who rejected it for ymir knows why. And then he tells her about his world genocide plan, somehow wins her over. - And then he leaves to fucking marley to play 4d chess with Zeke, and start a world genocide. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious. Eren did in fact always know about existence of Zeke too when he found out what he needed to use the founding's power. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but you made that point, for Ymir knows what reason. But if anything that makes it worse for your point, because Eren rejects sacrificing Historia even when he's not sure whether there is an alternative. Historia is not safe as long as he doesn't genocide the world. But he puts everyone else at utmost danger which gets Sasha killed. And after that he is lucky that not many more of his friends die. Even though none of the marley shit ever needed to happen, and it only fucking happened because he refused to sacrifice Historia and use her instead of using Zeke. Your "Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along." is such pure fucking drivel. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Second, he doesn't need to play any 4d chess with Zeke if he just uses Historia instead, it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit. And 3rdly Zeke's plan ALSO necessitates Historia. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. She is only irrelevant because Eren literally won't let her be relevant, as in he won't let her sacrifice herself, EVEN THOUGH she herself wanted to. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else. I can tell that you really enjoyed this series, and really want to discuss it from as many angles as possible, but i really don't want to. I don't even want to discuss Eren's character. It's just the story is tied to them, both were used as plot devices because Isayama wanted to draw the rumbling and cared not how much sense it makes. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. And all of those choices are still choices that characters made with character agency. Their way of thinking and motivations make sense. None of that is about determinism. Ancestral Sins are the reason why all of these stories ultimately happened. What about it? You see i don't think Eren is a psychopath, that's my problem, if he was a psychopath then everything would make sense. Dude just destroyed the world cuz he fucking wanted to. But he's not a fucking psycho, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot. So he made a very tough decision. But the thing is his decision was fucking retarded, and he doesn't make any sense. There were alternatives to fucking massacring billions of people. But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Now i'm truly wondering about your motivations in this discussion. |
XilverMar 5, 2022 12:59 AM
Mar 5, 2022 1:50 AM
#22
Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. Except that original Eren's motivations aren't that hard to understand? He hates the Marleyans for their discrimination and irrational hatred towards Eldians. They are taking away his freedom by forcing him to live inside the island, so he will take theirs away. Are these two panels really that hard to understand? It is ingrained into his brain since birth that he is free, and thus, he will not allow anyone to take his birth right from him. That's really as simple as his motivations get. From the latest ED too, "I found out that inside of me was a child of the Devil". It's just who he is. Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the timeline after the time-jump. Eren wanted to save Historia before Zeke and Yelena entered the scene. Historia was the only royal blood they had, and they would need to turn her into a Titan Shifter for the Mini-Rumbling (which she directly rejected in the Reiss Arc). It goes against her free will, and that's why Eren does not want that to happen. So, he makes her get pregnant. Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along. Historia is safe and Eren's motivations aren't about her after that point, but rather about doing the right thing now that he had secured one friend's future. Eren knows what's going to happen, and now his motivations change. Historia is safe, so he needs to focus on the others now (Why Historia first? Because she was the only one in direct danger until that point). He works to correct his original mistakes from the future by trying to work around his determined future. The problem is that he does not want the Rumbling to happen, and at the same time, the Rumbling is exactly what he desires deep in his heart. By the way, if Historia's character is in fact incomplete, could you please elaborate on how? What exact part of her development was stil left? What more was teased or outright told, but never explored? Go ahead, I'll wait. Also, - The Survey Corps deciding to go outside to study the Titans instead of listening to popular opinion and stay inside - Pyxis deciding to save Eren and use his potential instead of directly eliminating the very obvious threat - Eren deciding to listen/not listen to Levi Squad during the Female Titan Arc - Survey Corps deciding to overthrow the government instead of continuing to live in their manufactured lies - Historia deciding to be herself instead of living the perfect life her father created for her - Levi deciding to let Erwin die instead of picking the sensible choice to save him for future missions Attack on Titan has always been about the few people who use their freedom to make the right choices instead of the choices which make most sense. It is nothing new. Cattle in a farm? Boils down to how the cattle has no choice to leave and lives in constant fear of the farmers. Free Will vs. Overlord's Decision. Ancestral Sins? Literally about how you look at someone. As who they were born, or who they are right now. Determined Mindset vs. Free Thinking. I don't agree with what OG Eren did. He was a psychopath and a mass murderer. The Eren of our story did the best he could with his losing hand. The Rumbling was definitely the worst option out of the three, but literally the only one they had. No matter how much he tried, the Euthanasia and Mini-Rumbling would never happen He doesn't hate Marleyans, and doesn't think their fears are irrational. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yeah that's from last chapter where he has fried brains and isn't sure why he did the rumbling in the first place, he just has some abstract idea that he followed. Basically it was just fate at the end, the same reason he killed his mom, he just lived outside of time and was the slave to causal relationships. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes, stop trying to make me like the ending, i'm not trying to make you hate it. I'm arguing about specific points. You are absolutely incorrect about everything you just said about timeline. This is how it goes: - Historia rejects becoming the founding titan and eating Eren, at that point in time no one knows about there being humanity outside of walls, there is no known threat from any outside civilizations. - They find out about the history of humanity and Eldia, they find out the world hates Eldians, Eren also finds out that he has a half brother that is of royal blood - Eren finds out that he can use the fouding titan's power if he uses Historia, he keeps it a secret from MPs and everyone in general because he is concerned about her safety - Eren unlocks the memories of the future - Zeke tells everybody about it, Eren confesses - They meet with Kiyomi, talk about the 50 year plan, 3rd point of that plan comes up, Historia agrees to the plan in front of everyone, Eren starts raging and says they must look for alternatives - Some time after while they're building the railway Hange comes up and says the negotiations aren't going anywhere, Eren asks "does that mean we have no choice but to sacrifice Historia", he isn't happy - Some time after Eren meets up with Yelena, comes up with the plan - He goes to Historia, the latter says that it's okay she is fine with the 50 year plan and that is the only way, to which Eren responds with i shit you not "Even if it's okay for you, it's not okay for ME", and then goes on about how he won't let them to turn her into a breeding sow and feed her to her children. Historia agreed to the plan, she gave her consent, it's Eren who rejected it for ymir knows why. And then he tells her about his world genocide plan, somehow wins her over. - And then he leaves to fucking marley to play 4d chess with Zeke, and start a world genocide. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious. Eren did in fact always know about existence of Zeke too when he found out what he needed to use the founding's power. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but you made that point, for Ymir knows what reason. But if anything that makes it worse for your point, because Eren rejects sacrificing Historia even when he's not sure whether there is an alternative. Historia is not safe as long as he doesn't genocide the world. But he puts everyone else at utmost danger which gets Sasha killed. And after that he is lucky that not many more of his friends die. Even though none of the marley shit ever needed to happen, and it only fucking happened because he refused to sacrifice Historia and use her instead of using Zeke. Your "Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along." is such pure fucking drivel. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Second, he doesn't need to play any 4d chess with Zeke if he just uses Historia instead, it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit. And 3rdly Zeke's plan ALSO necessitates Historia. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. She is only irrelevant because Eren literally won't let her be relevant, as in he won't let her sacrifice herself, EVEN THOUGH she herself wanted to. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else. I can tell that you really enjoyed this series, and really want to discuss it from as many angles as possible, but i really don't want to. I don't even want to discuss Eren's character. It's just the story is tied to them, both were used as plot devices because Isayama wanted to draw the rumbling and cared not how much sense it makes. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. And all of those choices are still choices that characters made with character agency. Their way of thinking and motivations make sense. None of that is about determinism. Ancestral Sins are the reason why all of these stories ultimately happened. What about it? You see i don't think Eren is a psychopath, that's my problem, if he was a psychopath then everything would make sense. Dude just destroyed the world cuz he fucking wanted to. But he's not a fucking psycho, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot. So he made a very tough decision. But the thing is his decision was fucking retarded, and he doesn't make any sense. There were alternatives to fucking massacring billions of people. But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Now i'm truly wondering about your motivations in this discussion. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. he just has some abstract idea that he followed Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Man, that sure destroyed all my points and logic. Incredible. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1, because he actually saves her because he does not want people dying without reason again. If there's a way to save them, he will take that first. He has already found out that he needs to voluntarily sacrifice his mother, so he obviously does not want to lose more friends. What an asshole, right? Who would want to protect people close to them no matter what? I would totally kill my entire family if it meant saving the world. No sweat. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Once again, talking about base Eren here. So, yes, I do think he is mad. I am praising the development and writing of the story version of Eren. |
Mar 5, 2022 3:58 AM
#23
RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. Except that original Eren's motivations aren't that hard to understand? He hates the Marleyans for their discrimination and irrational hatred towards Eldians. They are taking away his freedom by forcing him to live inside the island, so he will take theirs away. Are these two panels really that hard to understand? It is ingrained into his brain since birth that he is free, and thus, he will not allow anyone to take his birth right from him. That's really as simple as his motivations get. From the latest ED too, "I found out that inside of me was a child of the Devil". It's just who he is. Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the timeline after the time-jump. Eren wanted to save Historia before Zeke and Yelena entered the scene. Historia was the only royal blood they had, and they would need to turn her into a Titan Shifter for the Mini-Rumbling (which she directly rejected in the Reiss Arc). It goes against her free will, and that's why Eren does not want that to happen. So, he makes her get pregnant. Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along. Historia is safe and Eren's motivations aren't about her after that point, but rather about doing the right thing now that he had secured one friend's future. Eren knows what's going to happen, and now his motivations change. Historia is safe, so he needs to focus on the others now (Why Historia first? Because she was the only one in direct danger until that point). He works to correct his original mistakes from the future by trying to work around his determined future. The problem is that he does not want the Rumbling to happen, and at the same time, the Rumbling is exactly what he desires deep in his heart. By the way, if Historia's character is in fact incomplete, could you please elaborate on how? What exact part of her development was stil left? What more was teased or outright told, but never explored? Go ahead, I'll wait. Also, - The Survey Corps deciding to go outside to study the Titans instead of listening to popular opinion and stay inside - Pyxis deciding to save Eren and use his potential instead of directly eliminating the very obvious threat - Eren deciding to listen/not listen to Levi Squad during the Female Titan Arc - Survey Corps deciding to overthrow the government instead of continuing to live in their manufactured lies - Historia deciding to be herself instead of living the perfect life her father created for her - Levi deciding to let Erwin die instead of picking the sensible choice to save him for future missions Attack on Titan has always been about the few people who use their freedom to make the right choices instead of the choices which make most sense. It is nothing new. Cattle in a farm? Boils down to how the cattle has no choice to leave and lives in constant fear of the farmers. Free Will vs. Overlord's Decision. Ancestral Sins? Literally about how you look at someone. As who they were born, or who they are right now. Determined Mindset vs. Free Thinking. I don't agree with what OG Eren did. He was a psychopath and a mass murderer. The Eren of our story did the best he could with his losing hand. The Rumbling was definitely the worst option out of the three, but literally the only one they had. No matter how much he tried, the Euthanasia and Mini-Rumbling would never happen He doesn't hate Marleyans, and doesn't think their fears are irrational. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yeah that's from last chapter where he has fried brains and isn't sure why he did the rumbling in the first place, he just has some abstract idea that he followed. Basically it was just fate at the end, the same reason he killed his mom, he just lived outside of time and was the slave to causal relationships. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes, stop trying to make me like the ending, i'm not trying to make you hate it. I'm arguing about specific points. You are absolutely incorrect about everything you just said about timeline. This is how it goes: - Historia rejects becoming the founding titan and eating Eren, at that point in time no one knows about there being humanity outside of walls, there is no known threat from any outside civilizations. - They find out about the history of humanity and Eldia, they find out the world hates Eldians, Eren also finds out that he has a half brother that is of royal blood - Eren finds out that he can use the fouding titan's power if he uses Historia, he keeps it a secret from MPs and everyone in general because he is concerned about her safety - Eren unlocks the memories of the future - Zeke tells everybody about it, Eren confesses - They meet with Kiyomi, talk about the 50 year plan, 3rd point of that plan comes up, Historia agrees to the plan in front of everyone, Eren starts raging and says they must look for alternatives - Some time after while they're building the railway Hange comes up and says the negotiations aren't going anywhere, Eren asks "does that mean we have no choice but to sacrifice Historia", he isn't happy - Some time after Eren meets up with Yelena, comes up with the plan - He goes to Historia, the latter says that it's okay she is fine with the 50 year plan and that is the only way, to which Eren responds with i shit you not "Even if it's okay for you, it's not okay for ME", and then goes on about how he won't let them to turn her into a breeding sow and feed her to her children. Historia agreed to the plan, she gave her consent, it's Eren who rejected it for ymir knows why. And then he tells her about his world genocide plan, somehow wins her over. - And then he leaves to fucking marley to play 4d chess with Zeke, and start a world genocide. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious. Eren did in fact always know about existence of Zeke too when he found out what he needed to use the founding's power. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but you made that point, for Ymir knows what reason. But if anything that makes it worse for your point, because Eren rejects sacrificing Historia even when he's not sure whether there is an alternative. Historia is not safe as long as he doesn't genocide the world. But he puts everyone else at utmost danger which gets Sasha killed. And after that he is lucky that not many more of his friends die. Even though none of the marley shit ever needed to happen, and it only fucking happened because he refused to sacrifice Historia and use her instead of using Zeke. Your "Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along." is such pure fucking drivel. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Second, he doesn't need to play any 4d chess with Zeke if he just uses Historia instead, it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit. And 3rdly Zeke's plan ALSO necessitates Historia. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. She is only irrelevant because Eren literally won't let her be relevant, as in he won't let her sacrifice herself, EVEN THOUGH she herself wanted to. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else. I can tell that you really enjoyed this series, and really want to discuss it from as many angles as possible, but i really don't want to. I don't even want to discuss Eren's character. It's just the story is tied to them, both were used as plot devices because Isayama wanted to draw the rumbling and cared not how much sense it makes. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. And all of those choices are still choices that characters made with character agency. Their way of thinking and motivations make sense. None of that is about determinism. Ancestral Sins are the reason why all of these stories ultimately happened. What about it? You see i don't think Eren is a psychopath, that's my problem, if he was a psychopath then everything would make sense. Dude just destroyed the world cuz he fucking wanted to. But he's not a fucking psycho, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot. So he made a very tough decision. But the thing is his decision was fucking retarded, and he doesn't make any sense. There were alternatives to fucking massacring billions of people. But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Now i'm truly wondering about your motivations in this discussion. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. he just has some abstract idea that he followed Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Man, that sure destroyed all my points and logic. Incredible. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1, because he actually saves her because he does not want people dying without reason again. If there's a way to save them, he will take that first. He has already found out that he needs to voluntarily sacrifice his mother, so he obviously does not want to lose more friends. What an asshole, right? Who would want to protect people close to them no matter what? I would totally kill my entire family if it meant saving the world. No sweat. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Once again, talking about base Eren here. So, yes, I do think he is mad. I am praising the development and writing of the story version of Eren. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. The original Eren being the Eren who hasn't seen the memories yet? What about him exactly? Or you mean pre-fried-brains Eren? I'm gonna assume you just structured your post in a wrong way, but i'm failing to understand your point. He most definitely genocided them while understanding their position and not hating them, or thinking that they're irrational. Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. Bruh, you're really going with this original and non-original Eren eh. Don't you see the problem with you complicating like this? Eren genocided the world because he's naive? What are you even arguing for right now? The story as it's written is simple, he didn't want to sacrifice anyone, and especially Historia, ymir knows why, but it is what it is. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. So Eren destroyed the world because he's a retarded kid that wanted something he wasn't even sure what because it was abstract. Cool, i love the ending now, Isayama is a genius. I really thought Eren showed quite the emotional maturity in the Marley arc. But of course he regressed at the end to garbage, like everything else. I'm not buying this explanation btw. I'm just saying it would still be terrible it this was the case. But i think Eren was much better of a character prior to 139. You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. No Eren did everything for everybody and everything. But the world genocide specifically was chosen instead of Mini Rumbling because of Historia. That's my problem. Mini rumbling guarantees the security of all of his friends besides Historia pretty much for their lifetime. Same with euthanasia, it also guarantees the security of paradis during the lifetime of his friends, bar Historia. With those two plans you don't even need Sasha, Pyxis and etc dead, and other of his friends endangered massively. Oh and also the little detail of billions of people not needing to die, just to throw out there. "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. I know what you meant bro, i just think it was a hilarious way to put it. But even so, it wasn't Eren's plan, Historia herself proposed it. Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. Yeah he wants to protect her no matter what, which is fucking stupid. It does connect with the mini rumbling plan directly, and is the main reason why he rejected that plan, which was a better for all intents and purposes. And any reasonable person would go with it. I'm not backtracking at all. You're making me literally repeat the same thing over and over again. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. It is A variable for world genocide, but is THE variable for fucking rejecting the better plan of mini rumbling. And because of that rejection the world genocide happened. As such, if you don't have that variable - Eren goes with mini rumbling(not really because determinism, but i just ignore that because it's terrible writing, motivations have to make sense), and Sasha survives, and Pyxis survives, even the fucking fan favorie Daz survives. And everyone is happy, even Historia is happy. Maybe Eren is not happy, but fuck Eren, all my homies hate Eren. Oh and also world isn't genocided, that small detail again. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1 I don't hate it. I think it shouldn't exist, along with much of Snk's content. The show should have stayed on the initial premise of ending the titans, and never introduced politics, ancestral sins or anything of sort in the mix. That shit really started in s3p1. I didn't hate any of it at the time, but with the ending we got they had no reason to exist. I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Oh i know exactly what i meant. Historia's character was flushed down the toilet, to a point that it would objectively be better for the series if Christa never became Historia, and that character just didn't exist. But then again i think that way for much of Snk's content. But you can take it as you want. It costs me nothing to spell out exactly what i mean in detail. But why? how does that change anything? Historia's character being ruined isn't even close to being one of the biggest problems with the series. So why do you want this, why keep trying to make me talk about this, even though it's completely off-topic? I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. None of this has anything to do with determinism. Stop wasting our mutual time. Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . Because determinism? Oh i noticed you talk about two Erens. I find it as annoying as you wanted me to find it, don't worry. But the very fact that you talk about two Erens proves my point. To which degree you people need to go in attempt to justify Isyama's terrible writing. You know what's the problem here? This is just a drop in the ocean compared to all the complains i have. So if your goal here is really to make me like this manga, you are really wasting our mutual time. If i were to write about all that i disliked, i would need to spend 4 hours minimum writing a post that is 50x bigger than this. |
XilverMar 5, 2022 4:07 AM
Mar 5, 2022 5:04 AM
#24
Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. Except that original Eren's motivations aren't that hard to understand? He hates the Marleyans for their discrimination and irrational hatred towards Eldians. They are taking away his freedom by forcing him to live inside the island, so he will take theirs away. Are these two panels really that hard to understand? It is ingrained into his brain since birth that he is free, and thus, he will not allow anyone to take his birth right from him. That's really as simple as his motivations get. From the latest ED too, "I found out that inside of me was a child of the Devil". It's just who he is. Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the timeline after the time-jump. Eren wanted to save Historia before Zeke and Yelena entered the scene. Historia was the only royal blood they had, and they would need to turn her into a Titan Shifter for the Mini-Rumbling (which she directly rejected in the Reiss Arc). It goes against her free will, and that's why Eren does not want that to happen. So, he makes her get pregnant. Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along. Historia is safe and Eren's motivations aren't about her after that point, but rather about doing the right thing now that he had secured one friend's future. Eren knows what's going to happen, and now his motivations change. Historia is safe, so he needs to focus on the others now (Why Historia first? Because she was the only one in direct danger until that point). He works to correct his original mistakes from the future by trying to work around his determined future. The problem is that he does not want the Rumbling to happen, and at the same time, the Rumbling is exactly what he desires deep in his heart. By the way, if Historia's character is in fact incomplete, could you please elaborate on how? What exact part of her development was stil left? What more was teased or outright told, but never explored? Go ahead, I'll wait. Also, - The Survey Corps deciding to go outside to study the Titans instead of listening to popular opinion and stay inside - Pyxis deciding to save Eren and use his potential instead of directly eliminating the very obvious threat - Eren deciding to listen/not listen to Levi Squad during the Female Titan Arc - Survey Corps deciding to overthrow the government instead of continuing to live in their manufactured lies - Historia deciding to be herself instead of living the perfect life her father created for her - Levi deciding to let Erwin die instead of picking the sensible choice to save him for future missions Attack on Titan has always been about the few people who use their freedom to make the right choices instead of the choices which make most sense. It is nothing new. Cattle in a farm? Boils down to how the cattle has no choice to leave and lives in constant fear of the farmers. Free Will vs. Overlord's Decision. Ancestral Sins? Literally about how you look at someone. As who they were born, or who they are right now. Determined Mindset vs. Free Thinking. I don't agree with what OG Eren did. He was a psychopath and a mass murderer. The Eren of our story did the best he could with his losing hand. The Rumbling was definitely the worst option out of the three, but literally the only one they had. No matter how much he tried, the Euthanasia and Mini-Rumbling would never happen He doesn't hate Marleyans, and doesn't think their fears are irrational. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yeah that's from last chapter where he has fried brains and isn't sure why he did the rumbling in the first place, he just has some abstract idea that he followed. Basically it was just fate at the end, the same reason he killed his mom, he just lived outside of time and was the slave to causal relationships. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes, stop trying to make me like the ending, i'm not trying to make you hate it. I'm arguing about specific points. You are absolutely incorrect about everything you just said about timeline. This is how it goes: - Historia rejects becoming the founding titan and eating Eren, at that point in time no one knows about there being humanity outside of walls, there is no known threat from any outside civilizations. - They find out about the history of humanity and Eldia, they find out the world hates Eldians, Eren also finds out that he has a half brother that is of royal blood - Eren finds out that he can use the fouding titan's power if he uses Historia, he keeps it a secret from MPs and everyone in general because he is concerned about her safety - Eren unlocks the memories of the future - Zeke tells everybody about it, Eren confesses - They meet with Kiyomi, talk about the 50 year plan, 3rd point of that plan comes up, Historia agrees to the plan in front of everyone, Eren starts raging and says they must look for alternatives - Some time after while they're building the railway Hange comes up and says the negotiations aren't going anywhere, Eren asks "does that mean we have no choice but to sacrifice Historia", he isn't happy - Some time after Eren meets up with Yelena, comes up with the plan - He goes to Historia, the latter says that it's okay she is fine with the 50 year plan and that is the only way, to which Eren responds with i shit you not "Even if it's okay for you, it's not okay for ME", and then goes on about how he won't let them to turn her into a breeding sow and feed her to her children. Historia agreed to the plan, she gave her consent, it's Eren who rejected it for ymir knows why. And then he tells her about his world genocide plan, somehow wins her over. - And then he leaves to fucking marley to play 4d chess with Zeke, and start a world genocide. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious. Eren did in fact always know about existence of Zeke too when he found out what he needed to use the founding's power. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but you made that point, for Ymir knows what reason. But if anything that makes it worse for your point, because Eren rejects sacrificing Historia even when he's not sure whether there is an alternative. Historia is not safe as long as he doesn't genocide the world. But he puts everyone else at utmost danger which gets Sasha killed. And after that he is lucky that not many more of his friends die. Even though none of the marley shit ever needed to happen, and it only fucking happened because he refused to sacrifice Historia and use her instead of using Zeke. Your "Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along." is such pure fucking drivel. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Second, he doesn't need to play any 4d chess with Zeke if he just uses Historia instead, it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit. And 3rdly Zeke's plan ALSO necessitates Historia. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. She is only irrelevant because Eren literally won't let her be relevant, as in he won't let her sacrifice herself, EVEN THOUGH she herself wanted to. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else. I can tell that you really enjoyed this series, and really want to discuss it from as many angles as possible, but i really don't want to. I don't even want to discuss Eren's character. It's just the story is tied to them, both were used as plot devices because Isayama wanted to draw the rumbling and cared not how much sense it makes. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. And all of those choices are still choices that characters made with character agency. Their way of thinking and motivations make sense. None of that is about determinism. Ancestral Sins are the reason why all of these stories ultimately happened. What about it? You see i don't think Eren is a psychopath, that's my problem, if he was a psychopath then everything would make sense. Dude just destroyed the world cuz he fucking wanted to. But he's not a fucking psycho, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot. So he made a very tough decision. But the thing is his decision was fucking retarded, and he doesn't make any sense. There were alternatives to fucking massacring billions of people. But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Now i'm truly wondering about your motivations in this discussion. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. he just has some abstract idea that he followed Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Man, that sure destroyed all my points and logic. Incredible. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1, because he actually saves her because he does not want people dying without reason again. If there's a way to save them, he will take that first. He has already found out that he needs to voluntarily sacrifice his mother, so he obviously does not want to lose more friends. What an asshole, right? Who would want to protect people close to them no matter what? I would totally kill my entire family if it meant saving the world. No sweat. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Once again, talking about base Eren here. So, yes, I do think he is mad. I am praising the development and writing of the story version of Eren. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. The original Eren being the Eren who hasn't seen the memories yet? What about him exactly? Or you mean pre-fried-brains Eren? I'm gonna assume you just structured your post in a wrong way, but i'm failing to understand your point. He most definitely genocided them while understanding their position and not hating them, or thinking that they're irrational. Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. Bruh, you're really going with this original and non-original Eren eh. Don't you see the problem with you complicating like this? Eren genocided the world because he's naive? What are you even arguing for right now? The story as it's written is simple, he didn't want to sacrifice anyone, and especially Historia, ymir knows why, but it is what it is. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. So Eren destroyed the world because he's a retarded kid that wanted something he wasn't even sure what because it was abstract. Cool, i love the ending now, Isayama is a genius. I really thought Eren showed quite the emotional maturity in the Marley arc. But of course he regressed at the end to garbage, like everything else. I'm not buying this explanation btw. I'm just saying it would still be terrible it this was the case. But i think Eren was much better of a character prior to 139. You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. No Eren did everything for everybody and everything. But the world genocide specifically was chosen instead of Mini Rumbling because of Historia. That's my problem. Mini rumbling guarantees the security of all of his friends besides Historia pretty much for their lifetime. Same with euthanasia, it also guarantees the security of paradis during the lifetime of his friends, bar Historia. With those two plans you don't even need Sasha, Pyxis and etc dead, and other of his friends endangered massively. Oh and also the little detail of billions of people not needing to die, just to throw out there. "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. I know what you meant bro, i just think it was a hilarious way to put it. But even so, it wasn't Eren's plan, Historia herself proposed it. Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. Yeah he wants to protect her no matter what, which is fucking stupid. It does connect with the mini rumbling plan directly, and is the main reason why he rejected that plan, which was a better for all intents and purposes. And any reasonable person would go with it. I'm not backtracking at all. You're making me literally repeat the same thing over and over again. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. It is A variable for world genocide, but is THE variable for fucking rejecting the better plan of mini rumbling. And because of that rejection the world genocide happened. As such, if you don't have that variable - Eren goes with mini rumbling(not really because determinism, but i just ignore that because it's terrible writing, motivations have to make sense), and Sasha survives, and Pyxis survives, even the fucking fan favorie Daz survives. And everyone is happy, even Historia is happy. Maybe Eren is not happy, but fuck Eren, all my homies hate Eren. Oh and also world isn't genocided, that small detail again. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1 I don't hate it. I think it shouldn't exist, along with much of Snk's content. The show should have stayed on the initial premise of ending the titans, and never introduced politics, ancestral sins or anything of sort in the mix. That shit really started in s3p1. I didn't hate any of it at the time, but with the ending we got they had no reason to exist. I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Oh i know exactly what i meant. Historia's character was flushed down the toilet, to a point that it would objectively be better for the series if Christa never became Historia, and that character just didn't exist. But then again i think that way for much of Snk's content. But you can take it as you want. It costs me nothing to spell out exactly what i mean in detail. But why? how does that change anything? Historia's character being ruined isn't even close to being one of the biggest problems with the series. So why do you want this, why keep trying to make me talk about this, even though it's completely off-topic? I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. None of this has anything to do with determinism. Stop wasting our mutual time. Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . Because determinism? Oh i noticed you talk about two Erens. I find it as annoying as you wanted me to find it, don't worry. But the very fact that you talk about two Erens proves my point. To which degree you people need to go in attempt to justify Isyama's terrible writing. You know what's the problem here? This is just a drop in the ocean compared to all the complains i have. So if your goal here is really to make me like this manga, you are really wasting our mutual time. If i were to write about all that i disliked, i would need to spend 4 hours minimum writing a post that is 50x bigger than this. I wrote this as an unhinged rant once, twice, rewrote it multiple times and I think my energy finally went away. So let me calm down. Hello, I have been trying to become a writer for a long time now, trying to work harder than ever these days to make sure I have good progress every day. It is hard work and not as simple as you most probably think it is. It takes days upon days to come up with a character's backstory. Hours to think of a good name. Months to even think of an outline, and years to actually write something up. I have been debating for a year now, in multiple different websites, and multiple forums. I promised myself on New Year's that I won't do this again and yet, here we are. This reply broke me, I am very sorry to say. I am pretty sure you have your reasons and you think differently, obviously. But from what I can see, you had an opinion about Season 3's tonal shift being very wrong as you watched it for the first time, and have seen it from that "problem" lens throughout. That's fine. Not all of us like the same things, and maybe you prefered a simpler narrative than what it is right now. But I would be lying if I say it does not infuriate me that you did not give it a chance. Because I write too, I can imagine what that man goes through month upon month as he tries to churn out new, quality content. We both see something different in that story. For you it's entertainment, but for me it's study material. So maybe that's why I see something you don't, while you see something I don't. But in general, this latest reply seemed very disrespectful towards the writing and that hurt me, because most people like you don't really understand what goes into it until you have actually tried it yourself (which most of you won't). It wasn't the criticism, but the very aggresive, blatant disregard of the hard work put into it. You could have worded it more politely and calmer, and it would have been good to read, but I guess we didn't have that option after so many replies? I am honestly sorry for writing so impolitely and aggressively from my side too. It really hurt me this time and I wasn't able to control myself from keeping on typing, even though I hate to argue. I am sorry for trying to impose my views on you. I hope I didn't rile you up as much, and I hope you have a great day ahead (however much of it is left). I have never been this rabid before, and this one really felt personal to me. Sorry. |
Mar 5, 2022 5:47 AM
#25
RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: RandomPerson1207 said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: rach1m4n said: Xilver said: I'm sort of tired of recapitulating the same point again and again, but why not go with mini-rumbling plan? Specifically for Floch, with Eren sure you have the same tired point of not wanting to sacrifice Historia. But Floch and Historia are literally strangers. Why won't he go with the more rational geopolitical plan? He just comes off as bloodthirsty. It's not like there wasn't a choice. Actually, i dont see Historia as main reason for full-scale rumbling at all. It's mainly because Eren is dissapointed and angry of the things he witness by himself. Such as Tybur still wanting war and declare it, the fact that there are "bad people" Eren refer in EP5 which is Marleyan soldiers playing with PTSD soldiers, and everything on his memories is proven to be true and unchanged(Declaration of War/Sasha's Death/Falco in EP1). It was the main things i realized that makes Eren driven the decision to just go "fuck it man, at this rate it's pointless to back up" and turns nihilistic as we can see, becoming Reiner but he's a Yeager. Mini-rumbling is a no for Eren because he feels its not enough, Floch probably scared because if Eren doesnt eliminate them clean they will be getting backfire. You don't see it, but Eren does. He was calmly reading and going with the plan until the 3rd point came up which was "sacrificing" her, and by that i mean turning her into a titan and having her have as many children as possible and get eaten by her children. He was hellbent on not sacrificing her before he had the memory unlock. The reason why he rejected the plan before even going to Marley was her, a point made clear again and again and again: So your justification for Floch is that he was scared that marley will retaliate? Well i guess Russians should genocide all the Ukrainians now, so that there is no risk of retaliation in the future. That's fucking absurd. It's not an excuse at all. By that logic every war must end with extermination of one side. What i'm trying to say is it's not his main, but indeed one of the reason. I'm saying about Eren wanting full-scale rumbling in the present not in the past nor the future, we see what we see currently and look into the past where it contextually shows the reasonings that support this one point of the plot, the past that shows he's doing full-scale rumbling which is Declaration of War/Prison Tatakae/Path Founding Declaration/and some manga things. Stop strawmanning me and add real-life scenario, it's unneeded. Stay tuned with the plot. Yes, Floch scared that Marley(technically not Marley alone but the potential of failed Rumbling will cause unity of nations sinks Paradis to ground) could retaliate. See Rumbling as weapon, if it ran out ammunition but the enemy still got whole fleet, armada, mens, bayonet, and war battlecry what Paradis(with Rumbling) could do? Nothing but accept losing or fight it with pointless battle cry(pointless screaming like Zeke hates). Yeah i got what you're saying, you're just wrong. Eren was saying that he won't sacrifice Historia no matter what before he even got the memories, he figured out that he could use her to secure paradis' future in s3, after which he kept it a secret from everyone specifically because he was concerned about her, which he directly stated. Furthermore memories he unlocked weren't all that clear, he didn't see everything and how he would get there, he couldn't know that for 100% that Historia mustn't be involved. That all is nothing but speculation. Eren was trying to find any other way to achieve his goals even after memory unlock and was open for the mini rumbling, before the Historia part came up. That is literally what happened in the manga. There's no point in denying it. Even though it makes Eren kind of a retard. Mini-Rumbling plan was to target specifically some areas of Marley, main purpose of it was to show strength to create deterrence. Other countries weren't involved in that plan. World hated Marley too, Eldians didn't want to create a common enemy for the world and marley. The plan is about geopolitics, a lot of ethnic minorities in marley like the volunteers hoped for Eldians to release them off Marley subjugation. And Eldia also was interested in creating buffer states between itself and Marley. Targeting others but marley wouldn't be good for the plan. I'm not strawmanning you, i'm applying your general logic to another scenario, that's all. There is always a risk of retaliation, that doesn't justify world genocide. Rumbling power would guarantee Paradis' security for at least 50 years, during of which Paradis needed to modernize itself. After conventional weaponry surpasses titans, there won't be as many reasons to hate Eldians anymore too. Pretty sure he is agreeing with you. He means to say that Eren did not start the Rumbling *just* because he did not want to sacrifice Historia, but because of multiple more reasons. Your explanations suggest that she is the only person he thinks about, which is wrong. He does not love Historia, he looks up to her. He sees her as a reflection of himself, which she is. It's just that she took a different, happier path, and he wasn't able to, so he is securing her future by making sure her choice does not end up being wasted. He, indeed, does not know that Historia will not be involved in the bigger plot, because he does not know the entire future, but that's what makes it so interesting, not "retarded". He does not know what is going to happen, is happening and has already happened anymore, which is what he tells Armin when he calls him to Paths during the boat scene. He is trying to make the best out of the situation he is given. He isn't cutting down trees in any way, but trying to build around them. In a previous message, you said that "it's not like there wasn't a choice". But that's the entire point of the story. There [bold] wasn't [/bold] a choice. It is all set in stone, and he is just doing what he can in the small periods of time where his influence works, which is in Paths. After the memory unlock, he did not really have any choice. Even if he wanted the Mini-Rumbling (he never did), he couldn't have done it. His mind wouldn't ever allow it. He is slave to fate and his own deepest desires, and he works to make the best out of the cards he is given. As for Floch, Eren does not care about him even a little bit. He most probably hates him, which is why he targeted him. Floch was disrespectful to Erwin and Armin, both. Eren would never actually go to him and ask his help, unless it was a ruse. Floch, on the other hand, is just happy to have power and influence, which he didn't have earlier, and which got his fellow Scouts killed (from his POV). It's not like Floch is a bad person. He has good intentions, but was negatively influenced by Eren for his own good, which in turn was for the good of the Eldian people. He is nothing but a manufactured villain to give Eren support for his true goals, and for the people to have someone as a scapegoat. I know what he's trying to say, i'm saying not sacrificing Historia was indeed presented as the main reason of him not going with the plan that Armin wanted. The plan that would be best for everybody, Sasha and co wouldn't need to die. The determinism bullshit is just that - a bullshit, any kind of author can at the last moment introduce that and say well everything happened this way because it was destined to, aka "i wanted to write the story like that, so i just did, fuck you". It's terribly weak writing. I'm not gonna waste my time humoring it at all. From storytelling perspective there needs to be a reason why a character makes a choice, Eren rejected the best plan for the sake of Historia, and that's fact, that also doesn't make any sense. He before getting the memories and after getting the memories kept saying i'm not gonna sacrifice Historia. That's the story as it's written. So Eren is just a fucking retard, there is no way to justify his character, his motivations are nonsensical. You can only make sense of it all with determinism, which means his character never had any agency, which is even worse. Isayama wrote a terrible story, i'm just tired of people that keep trying to justify it It wasn't a last minute change. Eren explicitly talks about everything being set in stone a long time before the final chapter. And if you mean the final arc being the last minute, then I can't argue with you. That's your opinion of when a story element can be introduced. Determinism is actually the best plot device AoT can use, because the entire story's theme is Freedom and Choice. Time Travel is not a bad plot device, but using it in a cheap way can ruin it all. In the same way, Determinism is a bad idea, but is amazing is certain contexts. The very thought that they have been doing this all without any chance to actually cause something adds to the tragedy of the story, and makes the ending even better because of how Eren continues to fight against that fate and does the best things he possibly could. If you want to talk about how Eren never had any control over his actions, I would take you back to the Basement. Technically, Eren has never seen the Marleyans. Hell, that diary could be a fanfic by his delusional father, for all he knew. But he hated the Marleyans none the less. Everyone in Paradis did. Did they have their own opinion or reasons to hate them? No. They had no proof of Marleyans actually being behind this, or if they were even real, or if they were even called "Marleyans", but they hated them. This is not their choice, but something which is passed on to them by Grisha. This is obviously not a direct comparison, but has the same base. And even further, every story is not the same. You can't rate a rom-com with the same criteria as an action thriller. You can't rate an anthology with the same requirements as a limited, continuous series. You must change your mindset, expectations and hopes according to what you watch. You see the "set in stone" plot point in a general context, but try to see it in the context of the story. It's so against the themes of the story that it is a perfect fit in AoT's subversive nature. A boy who yearns for freedom, has such dark desires that is he willing to kill for it, living in a world which by design is anti-freedom. The conflict is very powerful, and works beautifully. Isayama made some very bad decisions throughout, but the ending was not one of them. It was rushed? Sure. But it's themes, developments and plot is perfect for the story. I don't understand why most ending haters circle back around to Historia, even though her character was completed and put in the background a long time ago. She really does not matter in the larger scale of the ending at all. Eren's word from chapter 130 can be interpreted in many ways, and not necessarily within deterministic framework, and chapter 130 is 9 chapters before the ending, basically the finishing line, so it doesn't even matter. AoT didn't need any plot devices to keep the story going, it just needed for Eren to keep moving forward. And freedom is not exactly about the free will, free will vs determinism debate is a different conversation from freedom, which within the context of the entire story is living as cattle within walls because of ancestral sins and weakness. Free will vs determinism is a complete waste of a time that this story didn't need at all. And within it's context when Eren says "Even if all of this was set in stone from the start... even if all of this was what i wanted.." it still means that Eren was always destined to do what he did because he is he, meaning his motivations still have to make sense. The circlejerking about Historia always comes up no matter what in these kind of conversations because she is one of the main stated reasons why Eren went with the retarded world genocide plan, which is just unjustifiable. Meaning it's not about Historia herself, even though you're absolutely wrong and her story wasn't completed, it's about Eren's attitude towards her, and his autistic nonsensical desire to protect her no matter what, even though all the alternative plans, including Euthanasia and Mini-rumbling were better plans than what Eren did. Historia serves the purpose to show how retarded Eren is. But effectively this is just bad writing from Isayama. Except that original Eren's motivations aren't that hard to understand? He hates the Marleyans for their discrimination and irrational hatred towards Eldians. They are taking away his freedom by forcing him to live inside the island, so he will take theirs away. Are these two panels really that hard to understand? It is ingrained into his brain since birth that he is free, and thus, he will not allow anyone to take his birth right from him. That's really as simple as his motivations get. From the latest ED too, "I found out that inside of me was a child of the Devil". It's just who he is. Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the timeline after the time-jump. Eren wanted to save Historia before Zeke and Yelena entered the scene. Historia was the only royal blood they had, and they would need to turn her into a Titan Shifter for the Mini-Rumbling (which she directly rejected in the Reiss Arc). It goes against her free will, and that's why Eren does not want that to happen. So, he makes her get pregnant. Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along. Historia is safe and Eren's motivations aren't about her after that point, but rather about doing the right thing now that he had secured one friend's future. Eren knows what's going to happen, and now his motivations change. Historia is safe, so he needs to focus on the others now (Why Historia first? Because she was the only one in direct danger until that point). He works to correct his original mistakes from the future by trying to work around his determined future. The problem is that he does not want the Rumbling to happen, and at the same time, the Rumbling is exactly what he desires deep in his heart. By the way, if Historia's character is in fact incomplete, could you please elaborate on how? What exact part of her development was stil left? What more was teased or outright told, but never explored? Go ahead, I'll wait. Also, - The Survey Corps deciding to go outside to study the Titans instead of listening to popular opinion and stay inside - Pyxis deciding to save Eren and use his potential instead of directly eliminating the very obvious threat - Eren deciding to listen/not listen to Levi Squad during the Female Titan Arc - Survey Corps deciding to overthrow the government instead of continuing to live in their manufactured lies - Historia deciding to be herself instead of living the perfect life her father created for her - Levi deciding to let Erwin die instead of picking the sensible choice to save him for future missions Attack on Titan has always been about the few people who use their freedom to make the right choices instead of the choices which make most sense. It is nothing new. Cattle in a farm? Boils down to how the cattle has no choice to leave and lives in constant fear of the farmers. Free Will vs. Overlord's Decision. Ancestral Sins? Literally about how you look at someone. As who they were born, or who they are right now. Determined Mindset vs. Free Thinking. I don't agree with what OG Eren did. He was a psychopath and a mass murderer. The Eren of our story did the best he could with his losing hand. The Rumbling was definitely the worst option out of the three, but literally the only one they had. No matter how much he tried, the Euthanasia and Mini-Rumbling would never happen He doesn't hate Marleyans, and doesn't think their fears are irrational. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yeah that's from last chapter where he has fried brains and isn't sure why he did the rumbling in the first place, he just has some abstract idea that he followed. Basically it was just fate at the end, the same reason he killed his mom, he just lived outside of time and was the slave to causal relationships. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes, stop trying to make me like the ending, i'm not trying to make you hate it. I'm arguing about specific points. You are absolutely incorrect about everything you just said about timeline. This is how it goes: - Historia rejects becoming the founding titan and eating Eren, at that point in time no one knows about there being humanity outside of walls, there is no known threat from any outside civilizations. - They find out about the history of humanity and Eldia, they find out the world hates Eldians, Eren also finds out that he has a half brother that is of royal blood - Eren finds out that he can use the fouding titan's power if he uses Historia, he keeps it a secret from MPs and everyone in general because he is concerned about her safety - Eren unlocks the memories of the future - Zeke tells everybody about it, Eren confesses - They meet with Kiyomi, talk about the 50 year plan, 3rd point of that plan comes up, Historia agrees to the plan in front of everyone, Eren starts raging and says they must look for alternatives - Some time after while they're building the railway Hange comes up and says the negotiations aren't going anywhere, Eren asks "does that mean we have no choice but to sacrifice Historia", he isn't happy - Some time after Eren meets up with Yelena, comes up with the plan - He goes to Historia, the latter says that it's okay she is fine with the 50 year plan and that is the only way, to which Eren responds with i shit you not "Even if it's okay for you, it's not okay for ME", and then goes on about how he won't let them to turn her into a breeding sow and feed her to her children. Historia agreed to the plan, she gave her consent, it's Eren who rejected it for ymir knows why. And then he tells her about his world genocide plan, somehow wins her over. - And then he leaves to fucking marley to play 4d chess with Zeke, and start a world genocide. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious. Eren did in fact always know about existence of Zeke too when he found out what he needed to use the founding's power. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but you made that point, for Ymir knows what reason. But if anything that makes it worse for your point, because Eren rejects sacrificing Historia even when he's not sure whether there is an alternative. Historia is not safe as long as he doesn't genocide the world. But he puts everyone else at utmost danger which gets Sasha killed. And after that he is lucky that not many more of his friends die. Even though none of the marley shit ever needed to happen, and it only fucking happened because he refused to sacrifice Historia and use her instead of using Zeke. Your "Once Zeke enters with his plan, she is a thing of the past. She does not matter, because Zeke is the royal blooded Titan Shifter they needed all along." is such pure fucking drivel. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Second, he doesn't need to play any 4d chess with Zeke if he just uses Historia instead, it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit. And 3rdly Zeke's plan ALSO necessitates Historia. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. She is only irrelevant because Eren literally won't let her be relevant, as in he won't let her sacrifice herself, EVEN THOUGH she herself wanted to. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else. I can tell that you really enjoyed this series, and really want to discuss it from as many angles as possible, but i really don't want to. I don't even want to discuss Eren's character. It's just the story is tied to them, both were used as plot devices because Isayama wanted to draw the rumbling and cared not how much sense it makes. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. And all of those choices are still choices that characters made with character agency. Their way of thinking and motivations make sense. None of that is about determinism. Ancestral Sins are the reason why all of these stories ultimately happened. What about it? You see i don't think Eren is a psychopath, that's my problem, if he was a psychopath then everything would make sense. Dude just destroyed the world cuz he fucking wanted to. But he's not a fucking psycho, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot. So he made a very tough decision. But the thing is his decision was fucking retarded, and he doesn't make any sense. There were alternatives to fucking massacring billions of people. But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Now i'm truly wondering about your motivations in this discussion. He said that over the sea and inside the walls it's all the same, humans are humans, there are good and bad humans on either side. And he thought the world was absolutely justified to hate and fear eldians. It was neither revenge nor hatred. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. he just has some abstract idea that he followed Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. But that explanation is the same as determinism, doesn't justify bad writing and nonsensical motivations. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. You sure like writing a lot of paragraphs of emptiness, i have nothing against long posts, but when they're to the point, and aren't riddled with bunch irrelevant points to the conversation and outright mistakes You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. Eren doesn't make her pregnant. Why the fuck would you even say it that way, it's fucking hilarious "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. it is FAR more difficult with Zeke than with Historia, and because of that he had to do the marley shit Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. The only plan in which she doesn't get turned into a breeding sow is the world genocide plan, which is also the worst plan. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. First of all they don't need a titan shifter with royal blood, they JUST need a titan with royal blood. Man, that sure destroyed all my points and logic. Incredible. Eren said no because he's a fucking retard. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1, because he actually saves her because he does not want people dying without reason again. If there's a way to save them, he will take that first. He has already found out that he needs to voluntarily sacrifice his mother, so he obviously does not want to lose more friends. What an asshole, right? Who would want to protect people close to them no matter what? I would totally kill my entire family if it meant saving the world. No sweat. No, i'm not gonna discuss Historia's character, her character was just a passing sentence nothing else I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Everything after your "Also" has nothing to do with the conversation. You're just bringing up points from when the manga was good. I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, and he's just a nationalist who cares about his loved ones a lot Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . But wait a minute, you think he's just a psycho, and you still try to justify Isayama's writing? Once again, talking about base Eren here. So, yes, I do think he is mad. I am praising the development and writing of the story version of Eren. Yes, that's the Eren after he has seen the future memories. In the part you reference, I am talking about the original Eren, who nobody knows. It's because he knows this new information, that he tries to focus on their human side when he goes to Marley in the story. The original Eren being the Eren who hasn't seen the memories yet? What about him exactly? Or you mean pre-fried-brains Eren? I'm gonna assume you just structured your post in a wrong way, but i'm failing to understand your point. He most definitely genocided them while understanding their position and not hating them, or thinking that they're irrational. Yes, that's the point of the ending. It's showing his naivete. He just originally followed his desires without thinking. In the story, when he knows all of that, he has much more time to think about what he is about to do. Those motivations are of the original Eren, not this one. This one wants to protect his friends and the world. Bruh, you're really going with this original and non-original Eren eh. Don't you see the problem with you complicating like this? Eren genocided the world because he's naive? What are you even arguing for right now? The story as it's written is simple, he didn't want to sacrifice anyone, and especially Historia, ymir knows why, but it is what it is. Yes, Eren's motivations aren't some layered lasagna of emotions because he is a goddamn kid. The ending forces this a lot of times on you. Just like a kid can't tell you why he wants a toy, except that he wants it, Eren also just does what he wants. And he wanted freedom, because that's what he was told since his birth. So Eren destroyed the world because he's a retarded kid that wanted something he wasn't even sure what because it was abstract. Cool, i love the ending now, Isayama is a genius. I really thought Eren showed quite the emotional maturity in the Marley arc. But of course he regressed at the end to garbage, like everything else. I'm not buying this explanation btw. I'm just saying it would still be terrible it this was the case. But i think Eren was much better of a character prior to 139. You type as you follow it with a long rant about how Eren did everything for Historia, when he didn't. You seem hellbent on that point of discussion. You have convinced yourself that Eren did it all for Historia and for nobody else, and you are not ready to see it from any other angle. No Eren did everything for everybody and everything. But the world genocide specifically was chosen instead of Mini Rumbling because of Historia. That's my problem. Mini rumbling guarantees the security of all of his friends besides Historia pretty much for their lifetime. Same with euthanasia, it also guarantees the security of paradis during the lifetime of his friends, bar Historia. With those two plans you don't even need Sasha, Pyxis and etc dead, and other of his friends endangered massively. Oh and also the little detail of billions of people not needing to die, just to throw out there. "Makes her get pregnant" (what I wrote) vs "Makes her pregnant" (what you read). He **makes** her get pregnant. He does not do it himself, he **makes** her do it with someone else. I know what you meant bro, i just think it was a hilarious way to put it. But even so, it wasn't Eren's plan, Historia herself proposed it. Yes, and he still does it because he wants to protect her. Still does not connect to the Rumbling plan in any way. Indirectly? Yes. But that's the same as saying that Adolf Hitler started WW2 because his mother gave birth to him. You are backtracking way too far. Yeah he wants to protect her no matter what, which is fucking stupid. It does connect with the mini rumbling plan directly, and is the main reason why he rejected that plan, which was a better for all intents and purposes. And any reasonable person would go with it. I'm not backtracking at all. You're making me literally repeat the same thing over and over again. Once more, this is *a* variable. Not *the* variable. It is one benefit, from Eren's POV. Stop making it seem like it was all because of that one reason. It really wasn't. It is A variable for world genocide, but is THE variable for fucking rejecting the better plan of mini rumbling. And because of that rejection the world genocide happened. As such, if you don't have that variable - Eren goes with mini rumbling(not really because determinism, but i just ignore that because it's terrible writing, motivations have to make sense), and Sasha survives, and Pyxis survives, even the fucking fan favorie Daz survives. And everyone is happy, even Historia is happy. Maybe Eren is not happy, but fuck Eren, all my homies hate Eren. Oh and also world isn't genocided, that small detail again. You must really hate Season 3 Part 1 I don't hate it. I think it shouldn't exist, along with much of Snk's content. The show should have stayed on the initial premise of ending the titans, and never introduced politics, ancestral sins or anything of sort in the mix. That shit really started in s3p1. I didn't hate any of it at the time, but with the ending we got they had no reason to exist. I'm just going to take that as a "I don't really know what I meant earlier, and it was just nonsense, so I won't elaborate, obviously". Thanks. Oh i know exactly what i meant. Historia's character was flushed down the toilet, to a point that it would objectively be better for the series if Christa never became Historia, and that character just didn't exist. But then again i think that way for much of Snk's content. But you can take it as you want. It costs me nothing to spell out exactly what i mean in detail. But why? how does that change anything? Historia's character being ruined isn't even close to being one of the biggest problems with the series. So why do you want this, why keep trying to make me talk about this, even though it's completely off-topic? I'm bringing up points where characters take decisions out of their free will against preset rules. Pyxis saves Eren, even though he should kill him. Erwin takes down the government, even though it will cause chaos. Levi let's Erwin die, even though the obvious choice is to save him. I am not talking about plot points there, but the theme they all have. Free Will and choice vs. determined common sense. Going against the established flow. None of this has anything to do with determinism. Stop wasting our mutual time. Because he didn't have a choice. It's what he wanted to do, but realises he should not. You seem confused on the fact that I discuss about two different versions of Eren at any given point. One who has a pure timeline and does not have any Paths shenanigans (this one also does not exist, but represents his base motives), and the one which the story shows us. Rightfully, the story tries to make it seem like he had no choice, because the story version didn't . Because determinism? Oh i noticed you talk about two Erens. I find it as annoying as you wanted me to find it, don't worry. But the very fact that you talk about two Erens proves my point. To which degree you people need to go in attempt to justify Isyama's terrible writing. You know what's the problem here? This is just a drop in the ocean compared to all the complains i have. So if your goal here is really to make me like this manga, you are really wasting our mutual time. If i were to write about all that i disliked, i would need to spend 4 hours minimum writing a post that is 50x bigger than this. I wrote this as an unhinged rant once, twice, rewrote it multiple times and I think my energy finally went away. So let me calm down. Hello, I have been trying to become a writer for a long time now, trying to work harder than ever these days to make sure I have good progress every day. It is hard work and not as simple as you most probably think it is. It takes days upon days to come up with a character's backstory. Hours to think of a good name. Months to even think of an outline, and years to actually write something up. I have been debating for a year now, in multiple different websites, and multiple forums. I promised myself on New Year's that I won't do this again and yet, here we are. This reply broke me, I am very sorry to say. I am pretty sure you have your reasons and you think differently, obviously. But from what I can see, you had an opinion about Season 3's tonal shift being very wrong as you watched it for the first time, and have seen it from that "problem" lens throughout. That's fine. Not all of us like the same things, and maybe you prefered a simpler narrative than what it is right now. But I would be lying if I say it does not infuriate me that you did not give it a chance. Because I write too, I can imagine what that man goes through month upon month as he tries to churn out new, quality content. We both see something different in that story. For you it's entertainment, but for me it's study material. So maybe that's why I see something you don't, while you see something I don't. But in general, this latest reply seemed very disrespectful towards the writing and that hurt me, because most people like you don't really understand what goes into it until you have actually tried it yourself (which most of you won't). It wasn't the criticism, but the very aggresive, blatant disregard of the hard work put into it. You could have worded it more politely and calmer, and it would have been good to read, but I guess we didn't have that option after so many replies? I am honestly sorry for writing so impolitely and aggressively from my side too. It really hurt me this time and I wasn't able to control myself from keeping on typing, even though I hate to argue. I am sorry for trying to impose my views on you. I hope I didn't rile you up as much, and I hope you have a great day ahead (however much of it is left). I have never been this rabid before, and this one really felt personal to me. Sorry. Oh you're a writer, i should have guessed that from how much appreciate the plot design and how in many subtle ways things connect to each other, narratively. For the record, i didn't prefer the simpler narrative, i just think it fits better with the ending. I thought s1 was okay to good, s2 was pretty good, s3 was great with brilliant moments, and marley arc was phenomenal. I had extremely high expectations after that. With the ending that we got though, it seems to me that much of the series was unnecessary. With that ending i'd prefer it stayed what it was in s1. Meaning it's all about getting rid of titans. But i'm also the kind of guy who cannot enjoy the series if logistics of it make no sense. Let me bring you an example: I'm been reading this manga for 9 years, and been discussing it actively, i'm not kind of a person who just enjoys the ride and doesn't think about the story. So over the years, we in active manga community came to a conclusion that FT cannot possibly have the power to control the other great titans, meaning cannot manipulate their memories, because if he could then the great titan war makes no sense, the war because of which Karl Frtiz lost all hope in his empire, after the bloodshed he witnessed in that civil war, that also why Frieda didn't just erase Grisha's memories during the cave conflict. That rule has to be the case for the lore and the story of the series to make sense, logistically. Then 139 comes out, and we get not only FT being able to manipulate the great titans, but he can also manipulate the memories of ackermans, meaning Karl Fritz easily could have ended the bloodshed any moment he wanted, and he also could easily made sure to neuter the attack titan, and also the entire thing with Ackermans being persecuted within paradis because their memories couldn't be erased, is a nonsensical bullshit. So Isayama broke two rules, and why did he do that? For the cheap melodrama with Mikasa and his friends saying "what a man you are", it has been done to create a scenario in which Eren can make up with his friends. That to me is a case of an extremely weak writing. Add that to the fact that he robbed Eren of his character agency in attempt of absolving Eren of his sins, and the ending just feels like a complete cop-out. The way i see it determinism exists in poor attempt of Isayama trying to make sense of a story by claiming that everything effectively happened because it was destined to happen, to tie up the loose ends. Also a case of extremely weak writing. If he didn't have the balls to go all the way, then he shouldn't have drawn rumbling in the first place, and post time skip Eren pre 138 shouldn't even exist. So i think the story is complete shit. I didn't mean to offend anyone in any way. That's just my honest opinion. I didn't think you were too aggressive, i probably was more aggressive than you were. It's all fine, i hope. And i wish you good luck with your life. |
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