hazerddex said: What!? You're comparing Midoriya with Shinji? That's not even fair. @Kuraokani i guess you must not have been through school with a lot of 14 year olds. guess what a lot of them ARE crybabies. hes also a crybaby but hes still a badass. you don't need to be an asshole or "manly man" to be a good MC character as for why ganta is such a wuss in the anime that was mostly a anime only thing. in deadman wonderlands manga hes much more of a badass. and yet people wonder why i hate the anime's transgressions from the manga for deadman wonderland :| speaking of. what i want to see disapear from the anime industry anime that butcher the source material and anime used for a giant advertisement for the manga/ LN (i.e no second season want more GO BUY THE LIGHT NOVEL :D :D $$$$$) #1 Midoriya dosent run away from his problems, he runs toward them. As a matter of fact, he makes his friends problems, his own. #2 Midoriya accepts his weaknesses and strives to overcome them. #3 Midoriya has a fantastic personality. He helps others and works well in a team. Onto Shinji #1 Shinji constantly runs away from his problems. He doesn't help anyone (even though they're his friends) and his attitude toward others is awful. #2 Shinji thrives on self-pity. He constantly belittles himself and dosent do anything to improve. #3 Shinji has a terrible personality. He only thinks of himself and never considers how his actions affect those around him. Yes, like most people, I've been to school (public) and have been around 14 year olds (believe it or not). How can you say that the majority of 14 year old guys are "crybabies"? That's absurd. Hell, I don't know where you live or how the people there act. I could be wrong. I can say this though, the 14 year old guys (majority) where I live are not, by any means, crybabies. That's just my experience though. I'm tired of the "you're wrong and here's why" replies. I didn't ask you for your opinion on what I want. That's not what this thread if for. Sorry |
| [quote=Kuraokani] Jason_Funderberk said: Ugh. I never said I was completely self taught about psychology. I just wanted to be sure you took everything I say with a grain of salt, because I don't know everything and I don't want to act like I do, yet it seems that's still how it looked. Now, the comparison you've made between the dude from Orange and Shinji isn't bad, and the protagonist of Orange is probably a great character, but the purpose of Shinji isn't for him to be a good person with a shitty life, it's for him to be someone who thinks they don't have to fix problems that aren't their fault, which makes him a very selfish person indeed. Kuraokani said: Do you know what paragraphs are? Please dude, that lump of letters is intimidating (constructive criticism) Not really, I was just quoting someone else. I thought it might speed up the progression of this conversation if you knew how I'd respond to such a statement. I'm by no means trying to predict what you would say. Honestly, I don't think I could. Now that that's said, You do understand what this thread is for right? It seems like you're missing the whole point. It's for people to vent about what they don't like in the community/industry (essentially). When I say that I want to see the "crybaby" types of MCs to disappear, I'm not saying that the industry would be better odd without them. I'm simply stating that I do not like these types of MCs and I would be happier if they would disappear. I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone else. I'm still amazed at how you can say that everyone has similar qualities to Shinji. It truly amazes me that you could make a claim like that. Going a little off topic, if you don't mind answering a question of mine, do you have a degree in psychology? So you don't feel like you're being questioned, I'll answer myself, I have a A.A degree. I'm by no means a psychologist or philosopher, but I don't think I'd be over stepping my bounds by saying that I understand the human conscience (or at least better than you). The majority of people don't deal with psychological issues like Shinji does. A typical 14 year old dosent think about the things Shinji does (philosophy). It's absurd to say that he is a realistic 14 year old. As far as me "hating" Shinji goes, I don't. I never said that I hate the character as a "person", I said that I hate his archetype. The only reason we are having this conversation is because you replied to my post, defending Shinji and making all sorts of wild claims. Once again I'll say, I do not hate Shinji, I hate his attitude, his lack of resolve, and more than anything, his selfishness. Okay, I'll try to make paragraphs, but the thought hasn't even occured to me to do so. Also, I do not have a degree in psychology, and if I did, I wouldn't state so, unless specifically asked, because then it might make someone feel like my opinion has more validation than theirs which would ruin the purpose of explaining my point of view. In fact, just in case you didn't look at my profile, I am a 15 year old boy who is in the 10th grade of high school, so it's not like I would be an expert in that subject. Okay, thanks far that (paragraphs). Okay, so this is what I've got so far, you don't have any sort of education in Philosophy or Psychology, but you have a lot of opinions on topics involving those two fields. I'm not saying that your opinions are invalid, all I'm saying is that before you start making wild claims like that, you should really at least learn about the two subjects. You can't just say that everyone has some sort of inner psychological disorders that make them relate to Shinji in some way or the other. That's just groundless babble to me because I know different. Normal teenagers rarely contemplate philosophy. Especially questions involving "What makes you, you?" and "Who decides morals?". It's not normal for someone so young to have a existential crisis like that. It's really not. I felt the need to defend Shinji because you said he was a crybaby MC and that he ruined his story, and you even put him together with Haru and Yuuki. I could understand not being interested in that type of character, but hating an entire archetype isn't that fair. That's like saying every tsundere ever is bad, whether they are a realistic deconstruction or a bland stereotype in a harem anime that is there to pander to masochists. Or like hating an entire genre, like Fantasy, whether they are a very realistic and well developed world that is entirely believable like in Berserk or a mash of anime fantasy tropes without any proper world building like most Isekoi anime. How's it wrong to say that you don't like something in its entirety? Some people don't like Fantasy shows. My mom hates everything "Fantasy" from The Lord of The Rings to Harry Potter. It's not illogical to think that someone can not like a specific genre/character archetype. Furthermore, the reasons you dislike Shinji aren't satisfying to me, because he does have some resolve throughout the anime, more than the average depressed and neglected teenager with no real reason to live. And his selfishness is hardly any reason to hate him as a character, it's one of his flaws that he learns to get over (how much he gets over it depends on which version of Evangelion you are watching). Shinji would be a bad character if he wasn't flawed. And for the type of story Evangelion is and the lessons it's trying to teach, Shinji is the perfect possible protagonist, far from ruining the story, unless of course you think every robot anime needs to be like Gurren Lagann. Oh I'm sorry! I didn't realize that you have to approve the reasoning behind not enjoying something! Please forgive me! That aside, Shinji is everything that makes a bad protagonist. His annoying, selfish, and quite frankly, a idiot. He is everything that I don't like in a MC. That's not because I see myself in Shinji, it's because I see a annoying 14 year old brat. That's as simple as it gets. You're trying to make disliking Shinji a matter of psychologically when it's really not. Also, since you don't believe me when I say that Shinji is realistic, I will try to provide examples (I probably should have done this from the start). https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/6ccsuw/i_wish_i_was_a_different_person/dhv08y4/?context=3 This here is a real life example of someone who acts like Shinji. Shinji of course doesn't say "I wish" as much but if the events of Evangelion never happened he likely would have been. Lmao, so your "example" is one person on Reddit? How about you find me a study conducted by a creditable source and I might be willing to have a serious conversation about its contents. Until then, one person does not speak for the majority. The Reddit post was an extreme example but everyone has moments where they doubt themselves and say "I wish" which is what people say when they have no hope for themselves and want a better starting point. What most people don't realize when they say these things though that saying "I wish" only closes paths for growth and happiness. Shinji was made as an example of someone who would rather imagine what their life could be like if they are someone else, and with him put in a position where he would be forced to focus on what is instead of what could be, and some viewers hate this because they want to see what they want to be, not what they are. Okay, I get the point you are trying to make and I agree. I really do. That being said, people may doubt decisions they make or hate the person they are, but it's not on a Shinji level. Especially at 14 years old. If you doubt yourself and hate what you are at 14, you should definitely go see a therapist. That's not normal at that age. Let's just say that we use a individuals example. Let's just say that we do have a "real" 14 year old who is going through the same thing that Shinji is going through during the events of Evangelion. The character progression was still unrealistic. You don't deal with your psychological disorders by contemplating philosophy. It makes no sense! If you think that's a "realistic" approach, please explain why. Shinji hates himself, which makes it easy for others to hate him to just for how pathetic he is. You are right when you say he is selfish, anyone who wastes time saying "I wish" is. The point of his character is to expose the corners of yourself that are the same way, not so you can feel bad, but so you can grow and take control of your own life. That's why everyone is so harsh on Shinji in the show. In the reboot movies, Shinji overcomes his selfishness in a more conventional way in the second movie, but he is punished for it due to the cynical nature of Evangelion's world. While in Gurren Lagann the robots are powered by the fighting spirit of the pilot, Evangelion's are sentient beings who have a very motherly nature, and only work for those it desires to protect. That's why all of the pilots are depressed neglected teenagers with tons of complexes built up. In fact, Shinji's dad deliberately neglected him in order to make him the perfect pilot for his Evangelion. The problem is, once he decided to fight for something other than himself, the Evangelion stopped helping him and since he crashed directly into an angel, the third impact happened and everybody else hated him. There wouldn't even be a possible narrative without someone like Shinji as the MC. Thanks for spoiling the movies when we were talking about the T.V series. Anyways, I don't have much to say against that because I haven't seen the movies. Then again, I had no idea we were discussing those. Okay, now in order to stop myself from getting too off topic, I will return to addressing your comment. When you said you hate the whole archetype of the "beta-male protagonist," and you would be happy uf it went away, that would be getting rid of an entire type of person, the type of person that, even in small amounts exists in everyone. The part of us that doubts ourselves and the part that can be selfish. If this was removed, almost every anime would be reduced in quality and realism, and the amount of 3 dimensional characters around would be drastically smaller. Character development wouldn't have nearly as much flexibility and the only decent things left would be Shonens like One Piece and JoJo (but not part 7) where the protagonists just happen to be people who have almost no self doubt due to having either clearly defined purposes from early life and/or weren't completely fleshed out. Everything else would have very little character development if nobody could be like Shinji. Of course I know this isn't really what you meant, but that's how it would be in execution unless you handpicked protagonists to no longer exist. Huh? You can still use psychological disorders to further develop a character. I never said that you couldn't. I actually enjoy seeing a character work through their inner issues and struggles. What I'm saying (and have been this whole time) is that I don't like when a character is a "crybaby". I mean, look at that dude from Orange. He was a great character. He was depressed and had a lot of regrets, but he wasn't a "beta-bitch" by any means. He was the type of character that you could root for. One that you wanted to see happy because you genuinely liked him. Shinji wasn't. I couldn't root for Shinji or pity him because I didn't like watching the little selfish brat. He was annoying. Crying in a corner, letting people talk to him any way they wanted, and generally acting like a "beta-male". You have two characters with some deep rooted psychological issues. One is a good guy. He cares for the people around him and how his actions affect the. The other acts selfish. He runs away at every opportunity he gets and dosent if his actions affect the people around him. I'm clearly rooting for the former. What I'm trying to say is, Shinji isn't just relatable to "some people," he is relatable to everyone, as long as the person in question is willing to see and admit their own flaws rather than cover them up. Sorry for the long post, and of I got too off track as I made this post over a decent amount of time and had a few brakes. If something seems a bit intrusive I might have worded it wrong as I haven't been posting all at once. I'm sorry but I'm going have to insist that you're wrong. Not all of us see a piece of themselves in Shinji. Assuming that you know how everyone thinks was your first mistake. Edit: I forgot to mention this but I'm a sociopath The purpose of Evangelion isn't to give you characters that you would wanna be friends with or anything, Shinji and Asuka are made to be the types of people who would piss you off in real life. Shinji is a pathetic person, one who is unreliable and rather than trying to fix his problems, he assigns blame to them on other people because he never caused his problems in the first place. Asuka is a rude apathetic narcissist, who takes out her problems on other people even if they don't bother her in any way. Although they take very different approaches to reacting to their problems, they have the same thing stopping then from being better people. Both of them are insecure about themselves and have a very warped perspective about how the world works, and although everyone has at least some insecurities every now and again, these two allow them to control their lives. Shinji is cowardly and lacks confidence, and rather than trying to push forward and get over his flaws, he puts the blame on external forces in order to avoid having to put in the effort to change, and hopes that someone else will just come save him from his horrible life style even though only he can do so. Asuna just wants someone to actually care about her and be there for her to support her, but rather than improving herself so that she can get along with others, she just acts like a jerk and hopes for someone else to show up and save her from her loneliness even if she doesn't make it possible in any way. When I said that everyone is like them, I didn't mean that everyone was a narcissist or that everyone was a depressed coward, I meant that everyone has insecurities, nomatter how little, and Shinji and Asuna are what people end up like when those insecurities aren't dealt with properly. That Reddit post I linked wasn't supposed to be a representative of all of humanity, that was just a small example of how people actually can be like they are in Evangelion. People like Asuka are even easier to find examples of as most people choose to be aggressive rather than passive to deal with issues. However I chose the example I did because not only did I want an anonymous example in order to respect privacy, Shinji is the character in question and although Asuka is very similar fundamentally, it isn't as apparent on the surface, so I chose a post on the confessions subreddit that was a perfect example of people ending up like Shinji. Furthermore, when you said that most teenagers don't think of philosophy and such, Shinji doesn't do that as much as you make it sound, and due to the heavily convoluted nature of the world he lives in, it makes sense he would question it a little, which he does, but not all the time or even often. Actually, it's funny you mention that teenagers don't question philosophy like that, as when I was in middle school, I was a Christian, but once I learned about the Big Bang, I began to freak out because I realized that I had no idea how such a thing would happen, how there would be nothing and then suddenly something. Christianity also couldn't give any answer as I didn't comprehend how there could be a god if nothing created that god, and I didn't understand how anything would start in the first place. I couldn't and still can't comprehend infinite time, as that makes no sense to me. Eventually I just became apathetic in order to end the cycle of existential crisisies (No idea how to spell that). My point is, anyone can question there place in the universe if they feel insignificant, like Shinji obviously does. Also, continuing my previous point on Shinji not being a good person, the purpose of this was so that the show could tell us the audience that everyone has the potential to be good, even if they aren't a good person at one point. They don't make Shinji an edgy person who goes through tons of "trauma" but actually keeps their dignity the whole time and is just misunderstood, because then he wouldn't actually have any problems that real people actually have, then they would fail in their goal to teach people that they can improve. About those movie spoilers, sorry about that, for some reason I didn't even think about that at the time of writing, and what's even worse is that I forgot to put the point that it was leading up to which just makes that part useless. I should have put spoiler tags, but I don't know how to on mobile. But anyways, the point I was making was that Evangelion is very realistic in how other characters treat Shinji. Only a few people are nice to him and even they give up on him pretty fast, only one person actually is patient with him, but I guess I can't say anything because I don't know how to use spoiler tags. Since everyone pushes him a little too hard, or gives up on him a little too early, they miss chances for Shinji to have made a divergence from his usual behavior. Also, I think you might like the reboot movies more, as Shinji is a pretty person in them, although the differences are pretty subtle at first. By the way, I think I forgot to put something I planned on putting so if I didn't address one of your arguements or if something I said doesn't make sense it may or may not have been an accident. |
| There are a lot of things i wish i don't see in anime in the next ten years but i wouldn't change a thing due to some other people liking them, there a lot of different tastes and i can't judge that. But as for my personal opinion the main thing i wouldn't like to see anymore is ecchi in an anime that has a good story and i want to watch it, i totally hate it when i want to see more of the story and they give you boobs or some shit at certain points. As for comedy anime i don't mind at all if they have ecchi or not. And about the people saying shit about Shinji here: |
 |
Harbur said: Dense characters when it comes to romance What's wrong with dense? :c Well yeah, just don't be like Ichika. |
"I'm tired, Boss. Mostly I'm tired of people being ugly at each other." - John Coffey, Green Miles |
| People who create 3.5x speed watching threads. |
 |
| I hate female crybabies because it's a lazy stereotype that women cry all the time. Like I said before, I'm fine with guys crying because they're not expected to cry. When girls cry, it's usually played up so much that they don't do anything. I've rarely seen a female MC cry and not run away or just stand there defeated. It usually brings everything to a halt until someone has to cheer her up because culturally we're supposed to drop everything and tend to a crying girl. It's a show-stopper and annoying as fuck. |
   Things To Keep In Mind:
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