| Its been discussed tonnes of time in the BL.I mean Shirou does invoke the use of Rule Breaker which is deeply associated with Medea so I am probably going on a tangent here because the curse(the thing that dooms you) of Gae Bolg if I claim that it is intrinsically associated with him and hence can't be invoked by others. |
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laidellent said: Its been discussed tonnes of time in the BL.I mean Shirou does invoke the use of Rule Breaker which is deeply associated with Medea so I am probably going on a tangent here because the curse(the thing that dooms you) of Gae Bolg if I claim that it is intrinsically associated with him and hence can't be invoked by others. I see. That's rather interesting. I'll reread Fate/Complete Materials and get back to you, because for some reason, I remember talking about this and confirming that Shirou can use Gae Bolg's NP attack. |
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| The curse of Gae Bolg isn't specific to Cu.That's something the spear has itself. What Cu invented/added was the reverse-causality aspect to it.That's what's unique to him.Unless Nasu retcons it and has Scathath be able to do that too,*shrugs*. Whether that can be replicated or not through Archer though- idk. |
| It doesn't really matter if anything was attached to the spear or to Cu himself. If it's the spear, Shirou's projection will inherit the ability (see: Rule Breaker projection). If it's Cu himself, Shirou will inherit the skill (see: Nine Lives). The question is: When Shirou evokes the anti-unit Gae Bolg ability, will he call it "Gae Bolg Blade Works"? lol |
| Shirou's Nine Lives was flawed though. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Shirou's Nine Lives was flawed though. It was? But he executed it faithfully. |
| he only managed 8 hits,not 9 |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: he only managed 8 hits,not 9 I wonder, would he execute the attack...and then trip and impale himself on the lance? Gae Bolg Blade Works indeed :3 |
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DamnThatsTheSpot said: he only managed 8 hits,not 9 No, he managed nine. It's just that Berserker charge was so fast, he had the chance to kill Shirou between the eighth and ninth hit, but hesitating due to noticing Illya, allowing Shirou to deliver the final blow. Remember that Nine lives is 9 consecutive hits, not simultaneous ones. It's how it differs from Tsubame Gaeshi. |
astroprogs said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: he only managed 8 hits,not 9 No, he managed nine. It's just that Berserker charge was so fast, he had the chance to kill Shirou between the eighth and ninth hit, but hesitating due to noticing Illya, allowing Shirou to deliver the final blow. Remember that Nine lives is 9 consecutive hits, not simultaneous ones. It's how it differs from Tsubame Gaeshi. The ninth hit was delayed though, IIRC. Even though it's a slight delay, it probably shows how it's an imperfect move. |
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OneTrueBaita said: astroprogs said: No, he managed nine. It's just that Berserker charge was so fast, he had the chance to kill Shirou between the eighth and ninth hit, but hesitating due to noticing Illya, allowing Shirou to deliver the final blow. Remember that Nine lives is 9 consecutive hits, not simultaneous ones. It's how it differs from Tsubame Gaeshi. The ninth hit was delayed though, IIRC. Even though it's a slight delay, it probably shows how it's an imperfect move. It wasn't delayed. Shirou took aim for the 8 targets intentionally from the start with the ninth being the final thrust. Shirou could get 8 in before Berserker was literally in his face. Shirou never comments about the technique (because it was a success), he just comments how monstrous Berserker is that after almost 80% of his body is down for the count he still was able, or should've been able i should say, to kill Shirou before the ninth hit. |
astroprogs said: OneTrueBaita said: The ninth hit was delayed though, IIRC. Even though it's a slight delay, it probably shows how it's an imperfect move. It wasn't delayed. Shirou took aim for the 8 targets intentionally from the start with the ninth being the final thrust. Shirou could get 8 in before Berserker was literally in his face. Shirou never comments about the technique (because it was a success), he just comments how monstrous Berserker is that after almost 80% of his body is down for the count he still was able, or should've been able i should say, to kill Shirou before the ninth hit. I see, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Nice to see that NLBW really was that GAR :P |
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| Nine Lives is 9 almost simultaneous hits.They're so fast they look like they're all coming at once,but they're not. Shirou only managed 8 of that.His final blow was something unrelated to the thing. I step forward. His weapon is in my left hand. I'm faster. I can land a finishing blow before Berserker, who's missing an eighth of his body. I raise the giant sword up to his chest and thrust it like a lance. But I lost. I put all I had into it. I used every ounce of the unfair advantage I have, but it still wasn't enough. Berserker's attack draws near. It's swung down with hurricane force. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Nine Lives is 9 almost simultaneous hits.They're so fast they look like they're all coming at once,but they're not. Shirou only managed 8 of that.His final blow was something unrelated to the thing. I step forward. His weapon is in my left hand. I'm faster. I can land a finishing blow before Berserker, who's missing an eighth of his body. I raise the giant sword up to his chest and thrust it like a lance. But I lost. I put all I had into it. I used every ounce of the unfair advantage I have, but it still wasn't enough. Berserker's attack draws near. It's swung down with hurricane force. The quote reinforces my point. He thought he could finish Berserker and was actually ready to deliver the ninth, but it wasn't as fast as Berserker. Also, about NBW, no, he intentionally takes aim at 8 targets before he begins the execution. Upper arm, collarbone, windpipe, temple, diaphram, rib, testicles, and thigh. I take aim at the eight targets. |
astroprogs said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: Nine Lives is 9 almost simultaneous hits.They're so fast they look like they're all coming at once,but they're not. Shirou only managed 8 of that.His final blow was something unrelated to the thing. I step forward. His weapon is in my left hand. I'm faster. I can land a finishing blow before Berserker, who's missing an eighth of his body. I raise the giant sword up to his chest and thrust it like a lance. But I lost. I put all I had into it. I used every ounce of the unfair advantage I have, but it still wasn't enough. Berserker's attack draws near. It's swung down with hurricane force. The quote reinforces my point. He thought he could finish Berserker and was actually ready to deliver the ninth, but it wasn't as fast as Berserker. Also, about NBW, no, he intentionally takes aim at 8 targets before he begins the execution. Upper arm, collarbone, windpipe, temple, diaphram, rib, testicles, and thigh. I take aim at the eight targets. In other words, Nine Lives Blade Works is actually a series of eight hits, followed by a finishing move. |
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| Yes he aims at 8 targets,because that's all he could manage.He couldn't fit in the 9th one in the super fast barrage. He even stopped and tried to dodge Berserker's attack which shows he had already broken the chain.Hence it was imperfect. OneTrueBaita said: In other words, Nine Lives Blade Works is actually a series of eight hits, followed by a finishing move. I mean I guess it is,yeah. The real NL,used by Herc isn't,tho |
there ya go. |
| |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Yes he aims at 8 targets,because that's all he could manage.He couldn't fit in the 9th one in the super fast barrage. He even stopped and tried to dodge Berserker's attack which shows he had already broken the chain.Hence it was imperfect. OneTrueBaita said: In other words, Nine Lives Blade Works is actually a series of eight hits, followed by a finishing move. I mean I guess it is,yeah. The real NL,used by Herc isn't,tho Hmm, so it has decayed somewhat, but it's still pretty close to the real thing. As expected of the One True Faker~ laidellent said: there ya go. No matter how many times I see this scene, be it from the LP archive or on my VN, I always get chills when he gets to the "Trigger, off" part :'D |
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| Well it's close the sword version anyway. I doubt he could replicate the bow version of NL's shooting lazors |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Yes he aims at 8 targets,because that's all he could manage.He couldn't fit in the 9th one in the super fast barrage. He even stopped and tried to dodge Berserker's attack which shows he had already broken the chain.Hence it was imperfect. But Shirou never says that even though he comments every time a projection of his isn't perfect. Also, that was him taking aim. He didn't start, yet he was aiming at 8 targets. I'd understand if he took aim at 9 and was able to fit only 8, but that clearly wasn't the case. He chose to dodge because the chain was about to be interrupted by Berserker and he would die before delivering the final blow. |
| NL = 9 almost simultaneous really strong hits NLBW = 8 almost simultaneous really strong hits + 1 slower finisher Does that make it easier to understand why i call it flawed? |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: NL = 9 almost simultaneous really strong hits NLBW = 8 almost simultaneous really strong hits + 1 slower finisher Does that make it easier to understand why i call it flawed? You're assuming Shirou's name for it makes it different. I don't think that's the case, no. |
| I'm assuming it's different,because what it showed is different from what we know about it. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: I'm assuming it's different,because what it showed is different from what we know about it. What we know about it is what was literally shown to us in HF. There's no evidence that shows that Herc's version is in anyway different from Shirou's. |
astroprogs said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: I'm assuming it's different,because what it showed is different from what we know about it. What we know about it is what was literally shown to us in HF. There's no evidence that shows that Herc's version is in anyway different from Shirou's. According to Nasu, the anti-personnel NL from Herc is a 9-headed beam or something. So that might be basis enough that other versions of NL are all 9 consecutive hits. Weak basis, but that's all we know about NL. Nasu why you so stingy with information :/ |
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| Regardless of whether it is delivered with a bow, large sword, shield, spear, or axe, the technique boasts power on the level of Noble Phantasms. In essence, it is “a high speed attack consisting of nine consecutive strikes, as swift as if the attacks are overlapping.” it's from the wiki,so take it with a grain of salt,but the bow version supposedly destroyed the hydra's heads all at once,so yeah |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Regardless of whether it is delivered with a bow, large sword, shield, spear, or axe, the technique boasts power on the level of Noble Phantasms. In essence, it is “a high speed attack consisting of nine consecutive strikes, as swift as if the attacks are overlapping.” nvm I stand corrected. We do have evidence. |
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OneTrueBaita said: astroprogs said: What we know about it is what was literally shown to us in HF. There's no evidence that shows that Herc's version is in anyway different from Shirou's. According to Nasu, the anti-personnel NL from Herc is a 9-headed beam or something. So that might be basis enough that other versions of NL are all 9 consecutive hits. Weak basis, but that's all we know about NL. Nasu why you so stingy with information :/ They ARE 9 consecutive hits. The point I'm trying to make is that 9 extremely fast consecutive hits, doesn't mean they're simultaneous or can't be interrupted mid-chain. This is not a video game where time stops till Shirou finishes. The move IS 9 consecutive hits and Shirou knows that, so the question is: why does he take aim for 8 targets before even attempting the move? The only logical answer i can think of is: because 9 consecutive hits will be delivered. 8 slashes for the assigned targets + a thrust. |
astroprogs said: OneTrueBaita said: According to Nasu, the anti-personnel NL from Herc is a 9-headed beam or something. So that might be basis enough that other versions of NL are all 9 consecutive hits. Weak basis, but that's all we know about NL. Nasu why you so stingy with information :/ They ARE 9 consecutive hits. The point I'm trying to make is that 9 extremely fast consecutive hits, doesn't mean they're simultaneous or can't be interrupted mid-chain. This is not a video game where time stops till Shitou finishes. The move IS 9 consecutive hits and Shirou knows that, so the question is: why does he take aim for 8 targets before even attempting the move? The only logical answer i can think of is: because 9 consecutive hits will be delivered. 8 slashes for the assigned targets + a thrust. But the thing is the VN doesn't present it as 9 consecutive hits. There is a dust-clearing effect after the 8 slash animation, and then a bellow from Zerker, which implies that it isn't consecutive. At least, that's how I viewed the scene. |
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The move IS 9 consecutive hits and Shirou knows that, so the question is: why does he take aim for 8 targets before even attempting the move? Because he is a faker,using a borrowed arm,who can't replicate the move of one of the greatest heroes ever well enough. Like,i just refuse to believe Shirou had enough time to partially dodge one of Herc's attacks,yet didn't have enough time to swing his sword one more time. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: The move IS 9 consecutive hits and Shirou knows that, so the question is: why does he take aim for 8 targets before even attempting the move? Because he is a faker,using a borrowed arm,who can't replicate the move of one of the greatest heroes ever well enough. Like,i just refuse to believe Shirou had enough time to partially dodge one of Herc's attacks,yet didn't have enough time to swing his sword one more time. Could be. Could be not. We don't know how well Shirou will perform using Archer's arm. That's a good point i didn't think off. Well, maybe slightly shifting his light body will take less time than swinging that behemoth of a sword. |
astroprogs said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: Because he is a faker,using a borrowed arm,who can't replicate the move of one of the greatest heroes ever well enough. Like,i just refuse to believe Shirou had enough time to partially dodge one of Herc's attacks,yet didn't have enough time to swing his sword one more time. Could be. Could be not. We don't know how well Shirou will perform using Archer's arm. That's a good point i didn't think off. Well, maybe slightly shifting his light body will take less time than swinging that behemoth of a sword. But the fact that he even shifted his body shows a break in action between the previous 8 slashes and the final thrust. |
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OneTrueBaita said: But the thing is the VN doesn't present it as 9 consecutive hits. There is a dust-clearing effect after the 8 slash animation, and then a bellow from Zerker, which implies that it isn't consecutive. At least, that's how I viewed the scene. OneTrueBaita said: But the fact that he even shifted his body shows a break in action between the previous 8 slashes and the final thrust. Hmmm. I checked the scene again, and there's definitely a pause after the 8th strike before Shirou thinks, decides to do the thrust and then decides to evade. Yeah, you guys were right. Shirou's limit seems to be indeed only 8. |
| Fellas, just letting you know I finished F/SN UBW Season 2 subtitles. Anyone knows where I can put them so those who need them can get them? |
| Ad Astra Per Aspera |
Dimitrije1606 said: Fellas, just letting you know I finished F/SN UBW Season 2 subtitles. Anyone knows where I can put them so those who need them can get them? Thanks for your efforts. I'll be sure to check them out :D You can upload them on Mega or make them to be torrented on Nya. I recommend using Mega, though. |
| Come to think of it since Shirou can do stuff like copying NPs and their skill then why didn't archer just use that in UBW ?He would have been far more dangerous if he used it .When I think of it he could even dub Tsubame Gaishi and oneshot lots of people .He could do a lot more using that ability . Also why is he so low on the power levels ? Tbh I think Nasu created an extremely dangerous character but didn't show him using most of his true abilities .Some one who can copy the moves/weaponry of others is extremely dangerous except to maybe people like Saber with divine weaponry .Even if the rank of the attack is dropped a notch that kind of versatility is dangerous . |
SodiumChlorideDec 10, 2015 9:41 AM
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
flameindustry said: Lancer. |
Baitdragon16 said: power levels as in stats? it has to do with him being summoned in 2004 and the fact that he never acheived "true hero status" . also the older the servant the stronger due to having more and more years of accumulated "mysteries"Come to think of it since Shirou can do stuff like copying NPs and their skill then why didn't archer just use that in UBW ?He would have been far more dangerous if he used it .When I think of it he could even dub Tsubame Gaishi and oneshot lots of people .He could do a lot more using that ability . Also why is he so low on the power levels |
Maloghurst said: Baitdragon16 said: power levels as in stats? it has to do with him being summoned in 2004 and the fact that he never acheived "true hero status" . also the older the servant the stronger due to having more and more years of accumulated "mysteries"Come to think of it since Shirou can do stuff like copying NPs and their skill then why didn't archer just use that in UBW ?He would have been far more dangerous if he used it .When I think of it he could even dub Tsubame Gaishi and oneshot lots of people .He could do a lot more using that ability . Also why is he so low on the power levels Like as in rankings of strongest characters in the nasuverse .Apparently he's quite low . |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
| Yeah but thats because: 1)he isn't a true HS thats why Gil calls him a faker among other reasons. 2)Though they are exceptions,usually HS from the age of Gods tend to be way more stronger than the newer ones.Thats why Gil is the strongest because he was the first hero and hence has almost everything humanity has to offer. 3)If the activation of a technique is based on solely the HS concerned's unique skill,then Archer's copy of that technique will lack the "oomph" factor.I can go on a tangent and say,that Archer can use Gae Bolg but it will be nowhere as effective as Cu. 4)He has shitty mana reserves despite having relatively high quality magic circuits.Thats why he can't use UBW as and when required because it isn't cost-effective.It also doesn't help that no other HS would give him the time to utter his full chant before they kill him. |
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Baitdragon16 said: Maloghurst said: power levels as in stats? it has to do with him being summoned in 2004 and the fact that he never acheived "true hero status" . also the older the servant the stronger due to having more and more years of accumulated "mysteries" Like as in rankings of strongest characters in the nasuverse .Apparently he's quite low . Because of his low prana reserves + he can only mimic attacks to a certain extent ala NLBW. Regarding his low prana reserves, he used up Rin's whole prana reserve when fighting Gil, which shows how much he's consuming when projecting and using UBW. Also, his most powerful (non-suicidal) attacks are only degraded BPs, which really are nothing when you have Anti-World NPs, moondrops, dimension-hopping, etc etc. |
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| ^ But Garcher has B-ranked magic .I thought that kind of stuff would be easier for him .Also he has Rin ,a top ranked magus .If he just pulled off a couple of flashy moves once in a while then he wouldn't be a lot more useful .If you're taking on an opponent and out of nowhere you release something like say ,NLBW .The shock factor really helps especially if the opponent is the true wielder of the skill |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
Baitdragon16 said: ^ But Garcher has B-ranked magic .I thought that kind of stuff would be easier for him .Also he has Rin ,a top ranked magus .If he just pulled off a couple of flashy moves once in a while then he wouldn't be a lot more useful .If you're taking on an opponent and out of nowhere you release something like say ,NLBW .The shock factor really helps especially if the opponent is the true wielder of the skill The Magic stat isn't calculating size of reserves. The more power you put into a spell, the higher your rank, which has nothing to do with how many spells he can cast before he runs dry. About Rin, we're comparing character to character, without additional support. If we do consider additional support, ORT wouldn't be sitting comfortably at the top of the rankings, and Altrouge would be higher than the likes of Zelretch, with Primate Murder by her side. The shock factor only goes to show how low in rankings he is as well. No one expects him to somehow pull off a win with such crappy stats + a rather niche magecraft. |
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Baitdragon16 said: wel first things first is that power levels dont really mean much overall. just because Gun God took down a TYPE don't mean he's TYPE level. Archer was never impressive in any way shape of flat power. his entire shtick is his ability to play chess with everyone else in the setting. The monster is a bigger example of a char whose power level can't even be quantified.Maloghurst said: power levels as in stats? it has to do with him being summoned in 2004 and the fact that he never acheived "true hero status" . also the older the servant the stronger due to having more and more years of accumulated "mysteries" Like as in rankings of strongest characters in the nasuverse .Apparently he's quite low . |
MaloghurstDec 10, 2015 10:16 AM
| ^^ @ Baita I see .I think I understand better now .The power ranking list isn't 'the person that excels in combat' but 'the person that has the most brute power' right ?Makes sense to me now .Still though why didn't he use his tricks in UBW ? |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
Maloghurst said: Baitdragon16 said: wel first things first is that power levels dont really mean much overall. just because Gun God took down a TYPE don't mean he's TYPE level. Archer was never impressive in any way shape of flat power. his entire shtick is his ability to play chess with everyone else in the setting.Like as in rankings of strongest characters in the nasuverse .Apparently he's quite low . ^This. If the Nasuverse ran on raw power levels, (non-waifu)Shiki wouldn't have been able to kill Arc and kickstart Near Side Tsuki, Shirou would've died in Answer, Kerry wouldn't have killed Kayneth. etc etc. |
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Baitdragon16 said: ^^ @ Baita I see .I think I understand better now .The power ranking list isn't 'the person that excels in combat' but 'the person that has the most brute power' right ?Makes sense to me now .Still though why didn't he use his tricks in UBW ? Pretty much, yes. It ranks raw power. Which is why ORT and the rest of the Aristotles are always top-tier, and yet Ado Edem killed two of them. Malog's example of Gun God vs Venus is the best way to describe it imo. When you mean "tricks", do you mean his strategies? Because he does so. In the Zerker fight, he tries to Caladbolg Saber at the same time. Then you have his Kanshou and Bakuya-->Caladbolg vs Caster. And then his betrayal arc and stuff and then the fight against Lancer, where he's able to survive even when he can't see Lancer's attacks. |
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| Guess I was just disappointed after HF when I realized that Archer never used NLBW in UBW . |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
Baitdragon16 said: Guess I was just disappointed after HF when I realized that Archer never used NLBW in UBW . It wasn't really suited for any situation in UBW. It's cool af, but it has a short range, and he'd be better off BP'ing Caladbolg. |
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