Log Horizon
| In the past few episodes we are getting "Save me OP main character!" but can we just back it up and look at this for a second. According to the revival system if you die you go to town. So... just die? Besides that the kids can group together and rebel and there's tons of possibilities. |
| This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
Forgetfulness said: azzuRe said: Indeed, they should just stroll out of the guild building when it's PvP enabled.This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. That's the point, they'll return in the cathedral anyway. It's not like they never 'died' in the game. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
Forgetfulness said: azzuRe said: I'm fairly certain that they can block them from physically leaving. And they can also injure the players without bringing them to deathForgetfulness said: azzuRe said: Indeed, they should just stroll out of the guild building when it's PvP enabled.This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. That's the point, they'll return in the cathedral anyway. It's not like they never 'died' in the game. I believe if a person leave the guild they would immediately kicked out from the guild room, just sayin. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
Forgetfulness said: azzuRe said: I'm fairly certain that they can block them from physically leaving. And they can also injure the players without bringing them to deathForgetfulness said: azzuRe said: Indeed, they should just stroll out of the guild building when it's PvP enabled.This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. That's the point, they'll return in the cathedral anyway. It's not like they never 'died' in the game. They're basically threatened that even if they ran away or quit the guild they'll be harassed at every turn by Hamelin. They can't leave the city since the teleport gates don't work. They can't even level up properly since they'll just be PKd by the Hamelin guild members. The guild building zone they are in is also PK enabled. But there are things worse than death here. It's not explicitly stated in the anime but there are certain actions that will not be considered harassment by the system. Any thing that does only minor damage and is not considered a skill or weapon attack is ignored by the Royal Guard AI. Beating them up or worse sexual harassment (or even rape) is actually possible. It'll be hell one way or another. Susukino had it bad since the NPC women were being sold as slaves by Brigandia or being toyed w/. They liken it to stealing vending machines since they treat the NPCs only as objects. It's a lot darker in the novels. |
swordstriker21Nov 27, 2013 12:43 AM
Forgetfulness said: azzuRe said: Hm, that's a good point you bring up.Forgetfulness said: azzuRe said: I'm fairly certain that they can block them from physically leaving. And they can also injure the players without bringing them to deathForgetfulness said: azzuRe said: Indeed, they should just stroll out of the guild building when it's PvP enabled.This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. That's the point, they'll return in the cathedral anyway. It's not like they never 'died' in the game. I believe if a person leave the guild they would immediately kicked out from the guild room, just sayin. Well, the rules might not necessarily be set that way. Shiroe and co. have been in the Crescent Moon guild room countless times with no problems. Yes because the guildmasters allowed him to enter the room, it means he can go in or out as he likes. There are one scene where Akatsuki-chan tried to open guild member only room to no avail. swordstriker21 said: Forgetfulness said: azzuRe said: I'm fairly certain that they can block them from physically leaving. And they can also injure the players without bringing them to deathForgetfulness said: azzuRe said: Indeed, they should just stroll out of the guild building when it's PvP enabled.This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. That's the point, they'll return in the cathedral anyway. It's not like they never 'died' in the game. They're basically threatened that even if they ran away or quit the guild they'll be harassed at every turn by Hamelin. They can't leave the city since the teleport gates don't work. They can't even level up properly since they'll just be PKd by the Hamelin guild members. The guild building zone they are in is also PK enabled. But there are things worse than death here. It's not explicitly stated in the anime but there are certain actions that will not be considered harassment by the system. Any thing that does only minor damage and is not considered a skill or weapon attack is ignored by the Royal Guard AI. Beating them up or worse sexual harassment (or even rape) is actually possible. It'll be hell one way or another. My, my, what are you thinking. Naughty ecchi wan tauchy! |
azzuReNov 27, 2013 12:45 AM
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
azzuRe said: My, my, what are you thinking. Naughty ecchi wan tauchy! No really. In the spin-off manga (Nishikaze no Ryoudan) Seta Soujiro (one of the former Debauchery Tea Party members and labelled "harem character" cuz he always manages to get a bevy of girls) manages to prevent just that being done to their NPC maid Sara by Hamelin guild members no less. Since the Royal Guard AI perceives drawing a weapon and attacking another player inside a town as a violation it attacks him instead of the douche who harassed Sara. It's one of the loopholes abused by guilds like Hamelin and Brigandia in Susukino where Serara was held captive. Since there are no police or other organizations that enforce law and order like, say, a court of law and prison the players went wild and did as they like. What is portrayed in the anime (looting and thrashing stalls in Susukino) was a real toned down version. Not to mention pain is also accurately simulated. Adventurers are more resilient to pain but pain is still pain. This is what Shiroe wants to change. Since it won't be enough to dismiss the Hamelin guild he wants a complete overhaul of society so the beginners can be protected by a clear cut set of rules and laws and acts of violence or exploitation towards them or the NPCs (who seem to have wills of their own, emotions, families and loved ones) will be put to a stop. |
swordstriker21Nov 27, 2013 1:51 AM
swordstriker21 said: azzuRe said: My, my, what are you thinking. Naughty ecchi wan tauchy! No really. In the spin-off manga (Nishikaze no Ryoudan) Seta Soujiro (one of the former Debauchery Tea Party members and labelled "harem character" cuz he always manages to get a bevy of girls) manages to prevent just that being done to their NPC maid Sara by Hamelin guild members no less. Since the Royal Guard AI perceives drawing a weapon and attacking another player inside a town as a violation it attacks him instead of the douche who harassed Sara. It's one of the loopholes abused by guilds like Hamelin and Brigandia in Susukino where Serara was held captive. Since there are no police or other organizations that enforce law and order like, say, a court of law and prison the players went wild and did as they like. What is portrayed in the anime (looting and thrashing stalls in Susukino) was a real toned down version. Not to mention pain is also accurately simulated. Adventurers are more resilient to pain but pain is still pain. This is what Shiroe wants to change. Since it won't be enough to dismiss the Hamelin guild he wants a complete overhaul of society so the beginners can be protected by a clear cut set of rules and laws and acts of violence or exploitation towards them or the NPCs (who seem to have wills of their own, emotions, families and loved ones) will be put to a stop. Naw, if you excuse me, I have to read this manga, and some doujin of it. Guhehehe~ *drooling* |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
azzuRe said: Naw, if you excuse me, I have to read this manga, and some doujin of it. Guhehehe~ *drooling* Oh don't get your hopes up too much. It isn't really ecchi. The most you see is Saras kimono brought down to the shoulders and a creepy dude saying he'll need to punish her but Souji puts a stop to it right away by cutting another dudes arm off. Sara is cute though. But again there are a lot more things worse than being PKd and losing items. Elder Tales has become their new reality in more ways than one. The dangers they face IRL except for perma death is made real. |
| Furthermore, dying is not just dying and reviving. They feel the pain here. Imagine having to go through the pain. Plus Hamelin can continuously kill the newbies again and again until they submit. It's basically torture.. |
blEh SIGGY |
lancerjk said: Furthermore, dying is not just dying and reviving. They feel the pain here. Imagine having to go through the pain. Plus Hamelin can continuously kill the newbies again and again until they submit. It's basically torture.. Yep. Pain is still pain even if the players are more resilient. Not to mention the big risk when dying other than loss of xp and items w/c isn't revealed in the anime yet. |
swordstriker21 said: azzuRe said: Naw, if you excuse me, I have to read this manga, and some doujin of it. Guhehehe~ *drooling* Oh don't get your hopes up too much. It isn't really ecchi. The most you see is Saras kimono brought down to the shoulders and a creepy dude saying he'll need to punish her but Souji puts a stop to it right away by cutting another dudes arm off. Sara is cute though. But again there are a lot more things worse than being PKd and losing items. Elder Tales has become their new reality in more ways than one. The dangers they face IRL except for perma death is made real. That's what doujin is for, I believe there's got to be somewhere where the bad guys wins. lancerjk said: Furthermore, dying is not just dying and reviving. They feel the pain here. Imagine having to go through the pain. Plus Hamelin can continuously kill the newbies again and again until they submit. It's basically torture.. Not inside the city. I'll just create a newbie guild who did the same thing with Hamelin, selling Exp pots and use trade to craft something. Heck I'll even hire bodyguard with the money from it. Or I could join another guild, I'm pretty sure they would welcome me with the Exp pots per day. The logic still didn't make sense for me that they do nothing at all to save themselves. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
azzuRe said: Not inside the city. I'll just create a newbie guild who did the same thing with Hamelin, selling Exp pots and use trade to craft something. Heck I'll even hire bodyguard with the money from it. Or I could join another guild, I'm pretty sure they would welcome me with the Exp pots per day. The logic still didn't make sense for me that they do nothing at all to save themselves. With that train of thought they could've just asked Shiroe for help in the first place, but they didn't because... Well, my understanding is that they basically don't want to be babysat. Touya didn't call out to Shiroe, but rather wants to become as reliable as the latter. Minori is struggling with the belief that she's unworthy to recieve Shiroe's help. Hamelin can turn ugly in an instant based on their mindset which might spur some nice pk sessions later. They could join another guild, but they can't be sure whether the guild would be better or worse than Hamelin based on their past experiences. Furthermore, even if they joined the Crescent Moon Alliance or Log Horizon, their safety can't be guaranteed due to roaming pkers around the city. So, assuming they don't want to cause trouble for people like Shiroe, they basically don't want to be babysat. If they created a newbie guild that would really solve nothing considering they'd have to somehow recruit more experienced players to protect them since a group of newbies will probably get wiped. However, they possess a mediocre knowledge of the game, and coupled with how they have nothing but exp pots, I doubt they'd be able to recruit anybody. Selling their own exp pots and staying in the city is fine, but there are all sorts of ways to exploit people without physically harming them, and what the heck would they do for the rest of the day? In the end they're still caged in the city with the bad atmosphere. Even if they somehow managed to recruit experienced players and ventured outside, there's no guarantee they'll be a match for the roaming pk groups. Finally, they'd still be babysat. What Shiroe is doing is not only rescuing them from Hamelin, but also changing the nature of the 'survival of the fittest' rule to ensure that they won't need to be babysat. Hamelin isn't the cage they have to be rescued from, the city itself is. |
CerisineNov 28, 2013 6:35 AM
azzuRe said: That's what doujin is for, I believe there's got to be somewhere where the bad guys wins. Guess so hehe. But the manga is relatively new so good luck finding some doujins mate. azzuRe said: Not inside the city. I'll just create a newbie guild who did the same thing with Hamelin, selling Exp pots and use trade to craft something. Heck I'll even hire bodyguard with the money from it. Or I could join another guild, I'm pretty sure they would welcome me with the Exp pots per day. The logic still didn't make sense for me that they do nothing at all to save themselves. See the problem w/ hiring body guards using Exp. pots is this. People generally don't want to go out and battle monsters since it's far too realistic and being chewed on by a monster w/ nasty fangs is considered scarier than going up against PKs. Only the big battle guilds do that. Thus not a lot of players who are not affiliated w/ guilds give a damn about XP pots. They are also pressured by the fact that Hamelin and their ilk are pretty much backed by the battle guilds. No sane player would oppose an entire guild filled w/ veterans no matter how high their level. Thus it would be difficult, if not impossible, to recruit players who would want to stick their neck out for them. Joining up w/ the battle guilds would be no better seeing as they actually condone Hamelins actions. They'll just be walking in to a new cage. Neither would the small guilds be feasible since they are too busy w/ their own problems and are actually quite intimidated by the big guilds. They wouldn't want any trouble considering the difference in numbers. Another thing is that money has little to no value for the players. Inns are relatively cheap and if you have no money then you could always camp out in the city ruins. The economy is stagnant because the players have little to spend for. The food tastes like card board (until Shiroe executed his plan). Most players (except those in the battle guilds) are either too scared of battle to hunt for items or just can't be bothered since they see no point in it. PKs just kill other peeps for items and money. There's also the item lock feature w/c locks a specific equipment to one player so no one else could use it. Basically everybody is busy w/ their own problems to give a damn about a couple of newbies.Since it's survival of the fittest it's the newbies fault for being weak is the general concensus. |
| its easy to quit and harmless but they dont have guts and they dont have someone to rely to and if they go outside to farm money for foods and room they'll just get attacked,. and we dont know creating guild cost some money and wonder if someone will accept them if they join other guild as they're lowbie and if they can the threat from hamelin still there. thats why shiroe planning to chase out hamelin. |
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swordstriker21 said: azzuRe said: That's what doujin is for, I believe there's got to be somewhere where the bad guys wins. Guess so hehe. But the manga is relatively new so good luck finding some doujins mate. azzuRe said: Not inside the city. I'll just create a newbie guild who did the same thing with Hamelin, selling Exp pots and use trade to craft something. Heck I'll even hire bodyguard with the money from it. Or I could join another guild, I'm pretty sure they would welcome me with the Exp pots per day. The logic still didn't make sense for me that they do nothing at all to save themselves. See the problem w/ hiring body guards using Exp. pots is this. People generally don't want to go out and battle monsters since it's far too realistic and being chewed on by a monster w/ nasty fangs is considered scarier than going up against PKs. Only the big battle guilds do that. Thus not a lot of players who are not affiliated w/ guilds give a damn about XP pots. They are also pressured by the fact that Hamelin and their ilk are pretty much backed by the battle guilds. No sane player would oppose an entire guild filled w/ veterans no matter how high their level. Thus it would be difficult, if not impossible, to recruit players who would want to stick their neck out for them. Joining up w/ the battle guilds would be no better seeing as they actually condone Hamelins actions. They'll just be walking in to a new cage. Neither would the small guilds be feasible since they are too busy w/ their own problems and are actually quite intimidated by the big guilds. They wouldn't want any trouble considering the difference in numbers. Another thing is that money has little to no value for the players. Inns are relatively cheap and if you have no money then you could always camp out in the city ruins. The economy is stagnant because the players have little to spend for. The food tastes like card board (until Shiroe executed his plan). Most players (except those in the battle guilds) are either too scared of battle to hunt for items or just can't be bothered since they see no point in it. PKs just kill other peeps for items and money. There's also the item lock feature w/c locks a specific equipment to one player so no one else could use it. Basically everybody is busy w/ their own problems to give a damn about a couple of newbies.Since it's survival of the fittest it's the newbies fault for being weak is the general concensus. The way I see it it was actually a plot machine intentionally created by the author. The fact that there are big merchant guild in town (the three that was invited by shiroe for example) and they are aiming for money. Because they must be already realized the fact that you can actually buy piece of land in town where you can set rules, that is a big thing. In fact it's the same as creating your own town district, or your own city-state. I doubt that they will let a chance to have monopoly or a slice of market of EXP pots to slip by. There is no lack of high level players there and you've seen how enthusiastic they are about the secret recipe. This is simply played by the author by the ignorance of the children to seek help, even the fact that they had the chance to. Even with the easiest way out, they should create a guild and buy their own room! With partnership with big merchant guild on xp pot I bet they could've done it easily even with half market price. Then again they were just little kids, so yeah. Btw, I haven't got any luck with the doujins :( |
azzuReNov 29, 2013 3:37 AM
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
azzuRe said: Even with the easiest way out, they should create a guild and buy their own room! With partnership with big merchant guild on xp pot I bet they could've done it easily even with half market price. More like rent their own room from a hotel with the amount of members they would be able to gather. They'd still be trapped in the city where they can still be exploited though - just being in the city doesn't mean they're safe. If they join larger guilds, they become a burden. If they stay in Hamelin, they're treated roughly. If they leave Hamelin and start their own guild, they become targets. There aren't any escape routes for them right now. As Shiroe says in the LN, "Hamelin was the small-time evil, so it was still okay." Larger guilds can pretty much do whatever they like with smaller guilds, from controlling raiding areas to controlling the market or recieving other preferential treatment. This is the greater evil which Shiroe is trying to save not just the twins, but everybody from. (Also, many players know that zones can be purchased - it's just expensive to do so.) |
AqworldThunder said: In the past few episodes we are getting "Save me OP main character!" but can we just back it up and look at this for a second. According to the revival system if you die you go to town. So... just die? Besides that the kids can group together and rebel and there's tons of possibilities. i understand your point, but the point here is if they leave right now the guild, they will be in trouble(not physicaly) but minded problem, the guild master will harass them even more and they will be more broken that right now, p.s so the point is not about save US MC about dying, no, its about the situation of the town right now, |
azzuRe said: The way I see it it was actually a plot machine intentionally created by the author. The fact that there are big merchant guild in town (the three that was invited by shiroe for example) and they are aiming for money. Because they must be already realized the fact that you can actually buy piece of land in town where you can set rules, that is a big thing. In fact it's the same as creating your own town district, or your own city-state. I doubt that they will let a chance to have monopoly or a slice of market of EXP pots to slip by. There is no lack of high level players there and you've seen how enthusiastic they are about the secret recipe. This is simply played by the author by the ignorance of the children to seek help, even the fact that they had the chance to. Even with the easiest way out, they should create a guild and buy their own room! With partnership with big merchant guild on xp pot I bet they could've done it easily even with half market price. Then again they were just little kids, so yeah. Btw, I haven't got any luck with the doujins :( Again even if they get out of Hamelins grasp and go to a merchant guild like Shopping District 8 to give their XP pots voluntarily they're still allowing themselves to be exploited. They'll not be allowed to raise their levels much cause XP pots are only given to lowbies under a certain level thresh hold. They'll just be cows being milked for XP pots regardless of treatment. The only difference between Hamelin and the merchant guilds would be forced or voluntary exploitation. Either way it's still basically the same. If they threaten not to give XP pots for free they've got no leverage. They're all lowbies and beginners knowing next to nothing about the game except the basics. They can't run away,they can't level up properly and can't even properly defend themselves. You think the veteran players would even take them seriously? It's just like telling a 10 year old to find work and strike out on his/her own in the big city w/out any help. Good luck w/ the doujins though. Told you the manga was relatively new. But Sara was cute right? Right?! |
swordstriker21Nov 29, 2013 8:33 PM
| >They can't asked for help because they don't know who to trust >Some are being held captive on their guild hall..some are being watched >They are being threatened so quitting is impossible... >PK is not allowed inside the town but there are still a lot of things that they can do w/ the newbie(heck raep is even possible >.>)(PK is allowed inside hamelin guild hall) >Buying zones are extremely costly only the biggest guild has the power to buy one... > Dying is useless since they can expect some hamelin member guarding the cathedral and duh dying is painful ;p About buying zone there are plenty of guild who bought one(but we are currently focusing in akiba)... there is actually one in minami who bought almost all important building/zone there |
| I know your name, OP. I used to waste money on that crap when I was younger too. Nowadays, I sometimes still log in. AHH, the nostalgic memories! |
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azzuRe said: This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. I don't know if someone said this already, but, you have to go to the main guild house to join. leave, or make guilds. maybe they aren't allowed to go to a certain place in the guild house to leave the guild? (as seen in episode 9) |
| ¨I´d rather die a hero, than kill a failure¨~RedLikeARose meaning I'd rather help others than to commit suicide without even a notice on the internet |
| Meh. Kids can't do anything because they're afraid. Back to monogatari because fuck this shit. cupc said: I know your name, OP. I used to waste money on that crap when I was younger too. Nowadays, I sometimes still log in. AHH, the nostalgic memories! Ah, you had to bring it up! I wasted my money on it also... a lot actually. Hundreds. |
AqworldThunder said: Meh. Kids can't do anything because they're afraid. Back to monogatari because fuck this shit. cupc said: I know your name, OP. I used to waste money on that crap when I was younger too. Nowadays, I sometimes still log in. AHH, the nostalgic memories! Ah, you had to bring it up! I wasted my money on it also... a lot actually. Hundreds. they are like 12 years old, come on bro and secondly leave the guild right now would be a terrible mistake for a lot of points -not able to eat anymore because they will be harassed -not able to buy anything because they will need to leave the city and will get harassed again -finally they will get harassed for everything if they leave the guild right now, so its really better to stay like that and wait for shiro to come save them |
590292009 said: Vaonari said: (Also, many players know that zones can be purchased - it's just expensive to do so.) Did they actually? I don't think this was in the L.N. or the anime if I remember correctly. If this is the case then it seems odd that the large guilds did not buy out key zones, considering they have the gold to be able to do so. wazzalord3 said: azzuRe said: This also something I wondered, why can't they just choose 'quit guild' already.. In all MMO it's just as easy as one click. I don't know if someone said this already, but, you have to go to the main guild house to join. leave, or make guilds. maybe they aren't allowed to go to a certain place in the guild house to leave the guild? (as seen in episode 9) That's why it's a plot engine, no? The author simply use this rules to make the settings 'inescapable' to these poor souls, even to the very first premise that causes this tragedy = Trade-able newbie XP pots. The author creates a 'broken system' that is exploitable just to push the necessary plot twists (the newbie dilemma) and the 'only one way out' option. It is called 'option lock', where you can only progress with the story as options is diminished one by one that only leads to a singular storyline (by opt-out other possibilities as the plot progress). Like the points I've mentioned before, (if what I'm quoting is right) why did the other large guilds didn't find out that they could buy lands? why can't they quit guild with just one click? Why is newbie items especially the exploitable xp pots is trade-able? why the system didn't handle harassment? etc. We often takes it just as is, rules cannot be broken, especially this is a 'game' where rules is absolute, but I am trying to think outside the box that the author sets, to question these rules. Why? I'm not suggesting a character to break the plot rules, but as a spectator anime watchers that is questioning why these rules are made by the author. It's like the myth of Sisyphus that cannot break his own curse. Simply because it is necessary to creates a plot. The rules molded it, and we've taken it for granted, "That's just how the story is". This is what I am actually questioning. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
azzuRe said: why did the other large guilds didn't find out that they could buy lands? There was no need to, they were busy with other things, purchase of zones was newly added with the expansion. azzuRe said: why can't they quit guild with just one click? You have to be at the guild counter and go through a process azzuRe said: Why is newbie items especially the exploitable xp pots is trade-able? They were handed over physically as you could see, the game systems played no part in it azzuRe said: why the system didn't handle harassment? etc. Because physical harassment didn't exist when it was a game, it was either an attack via skills or it wasn't, compared to now where you can grab people and punch/kick them. azzuRe said: We often takes it just as is, rules cannot be broken, especially this is a 'game' where rules is absolute, but I am trying to think outside the box that the author sets, to question these rules. The entire premise of the show is the mixing of reality and game. Game rules can't be broken, but you can do game-like functions without using the game functions themselves. |
| Basically the concept of Elder Tales being a game has been overturned. It's now more like reality w/ game elements thrown in. You can't cook using short cuts, can't do anything w/ a touch of a button and instead of you staring at the screen playing you yourself are inside the game. Game rules aren't absolute if you mix it in w/ reality. As reality is fundamentally flawed it carries over to Elder Tales as well. And a major misconception is that Elder Tales was a Virtual Reality MMO befor the Catastrophe hit. It was actually an ordinary game played on ones PC and that's why the players were really shocked when they realized they were actually inside a game. |
swordstriker21Dec 1, 2013 6:27 PM
Forgetfulness said: Does it ever explain how they actually get stuck inside the world of Elder Tale? That's one of the major secrets of LH. It hasn't gotten to a point where they are committing their efforts to find out why they're transported to this kind of alternate reality. They have more pressing problems... like world domination lol. But knowing Shiroe he might actually attempt it. He IS the "Villain in Glasses" you know. Anyway they have to deal w/ the anarchy in other cities first and gain the players cooperation because even if it's "half-gaia" the world is still a pretty big place to investigate w/ only a couple thousand players. |
DivAsakust said: The entire premise of the show is the mixing of reality and game. Game rules can't be broken, but you can do game-like functions without using the game functions themselves. I guess you are missing the point of my post. It was about questioning the plot construct and conveniences in the series. For example: DivAsakust said: Isn't it weird? As if Shiroe is the only person to realize it. Just like the cooking skills, isn't it weird that the other people (besides the protagonist team) didn't found out how or tries to cook properly? azzuRe said: why did the other large guilds didn't find out that they could buy lands? There was no need to, they were busy with other things, purchase of zones was newly added with the expansion. DivAsakust said: Isn't it weird that you can still using personal contact (telepathy, lol) or popping inventory items from the thin air, yet you have to walk to a counter to quit a guild? It makes a little more sense if it's about joining a guild, but not quitting it.azzuRe said: why can't they quit guild with just one click? You have to be at the guild counter and go through a process DivAsakust said: I don't know about you, but in many MMO newbies freebies are character locked to prevent abuse. If they can have a system where they could set locks and rules to certain places, I think it's silly if they did not implement item locks too. azzuRe said: Why is newbie items especially the exploitable xp pots is trade-able? They were handed over physically as you could see, the game systems played no part in it DivAsakust said: azzuRe said: why the system didn't handle harassment? etc. Because physical harassment didn't exist when it was a game, it was either an attack via skills or it wasn't, compared to now where you can grab people and punch/kick them. Then why kicking or harassing someone is not considered an assault after the world changed? I doubt that they can kick each others back when it was a game, but the catch logic of the game should be 'damage dealt' by someone, regardless of it means. That's why it is a convenience plot engine no? Because we can easily say, that's just how the game works, without questioning the construct of the system. DivAsakust said: Then it literally defeats the whole purpose of having game rules in the world isn't it? I understand of what the show is trying to say, but it is hard to draw the distinct line between which rules can be bypassed or tricked (like cooking and combat) and rules that is absolute (penalties of fighting inside city or guild locked rooms), so it's more like a construct built for conveniences of the plot.azzuRe said: We often takes it just as is, rules cannot be broken, especially this is a 'game' where rules is absolute, but I am trying to think outside the box that the author sets, to question these rules. The entire premise of the show is the mixing of reality and game. Game rules can't be broken, but you can do game-like functions without using the game functions themselves. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
| Forced drama peeps. They gotta develop the characters somehow |
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azzuRe said: Then it literally defeats the whole purpose of having game rules in the world isn't it? I understand of what the show is trying to say, but it is hard to draw the distinct line between which rules can be bypassed or tricked (like cooking and combat) and rules that is absolute (penalties of fighting inside city or guild locked rooms), so it's more like a construct built for conveniences of the plot. I believe Touno sensei wants us to look at this the other way around. Meaning that Elder Tales isn't actually a game that was turned into Virtual reality but reality itself superimposed w/ game rules. Though I do understand where you're coming from. Depends on ones threshold for suspension of disbelief I guess. Regardless of these I still enjoy the overall plot but that's just me. Cheers mate. |
| Well, that was fun reading everyone's opinion on the topic. Log Horizon just keeps getting better and better. |
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| This may help in setting the perspective that the author intended. This is a quote from vol. 1 of the novels w/c have already been adapted into the first 4 eps of the anime although some parts were skipped or shortened. Again credits to the translators and baka-tsuki (hosting site). |
azzuRe said: Isn't it weird? As if Shiroe is the only person to realize it. Just like the cooking skills, isn't it weird that the other people (besides the protagonist team) didn't found out how or tries to cook properly? He's not the only one, and in the novels Shiroe estimates around 150 people would have figured out the cooking thing by then, it just wasn't shared/had insufficient meas to share it/in akiba. azzuRe said: Isn't it weird that you can still using personal contact (telepathy, lol) or popping inventory items from the thin air, yet you have to walk to a counter to quit a guild? It makes a little more sense if it's about joining a guild, but not quitting it. Even in the Elder Tales game you had to go to the counter to do it, this isn't something that happened after the Catastrophe. azzuRe said: I don't know about you, but in many MMO newbies freebies are character locked to prevent abuse. If they can have a system where they could set locks and rules to certain places, I think it's silly if they did not implement item locks too. Like I said, they were locked, but that doesn't matter since they weren't "traded" azzuRe said: Then why kicking or harassing someone is not considered an assault after the world changed? I doubt that they can kick each others back when it was a game, but the catch logic of the game should be 'damage dealt' by someone, regardless of it means. That's why it is a convenience plot engine no? Because we can easily say, that's just how the game works, without questioning the construct of the system. Much of your failure to grasp the concept is that you think that they're IN the game. They not. It's an alternate REALITY which has certain game functions that resembles Elder Tales. azzuRe said: Then it literally defeats the whole purpose of having game rules in the world isn't it? I understand of what the show is trying to say, but it is hard to draw the distinct line between which rules can be bypassed or tricked (like cooking and combat) and rules that is absolute (penalties of fighting inside city or guild locked rooms), so it's more like a construct built for conveniences of the plot. How does it defeat the purpose? If anything it's the ENTIRE purpose of the show. Mamare himself even mentions that the world is constantly expanding (figuratively and literally), and reality and game are being mixed in an imperfect way. So no, it's not really 'convenience'. |
DivAsakust said: azzuRe said: Then it literally defeats the whole purpose of having game rules in the world isn't it? I understand of what the show is trying to say, but it is hard to draw the distinct line between which rules can be bypassed or tricked (like cooking and combat) and rules that is absolute (penalties of fighting inside city or guild locked rooms), so it's more like a construct built for conveniences of the plot. How does it defeat the purpose? If anything it's the ENTIRE purpose of the show. Mamare himself even mentions that the world is constantly expanding (figuratively and literally), and reality and game are being mixed in an imperfect way. So no, it's not really 'convenience'. I think this article could explain better than my definition of plot conveniences: In this series, I suspect that the Game Rules is a convenient Plot Device that had no reasoning of why they should behave in such ways, I see that you cannot see the plot outside of its mechanism, and that's why you mistaken my trivial question about the said device as an attack to the plot instead of the device. |
azzuReDec 2, 2013 9:18 PM
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
azzuRe said: I think this article could explain better than my definition of plot conveniences: In this series, I suspect that the Game Rules is a convenient Plot Device that had no reasoning of why they should behave in such ways, I see that you cannot see the plot outside of its mechanism, and that's why you mistaken my trivial question about the said device as an attack to the plot instead of the device. Sorry if I'm still missing your point, I just don't understand that gobble-dee-gook. But as a novel reader, the only thing I can say is, the Game Rules are just that, game rules, they are fully enforced in the game Elder Tales and in the world that seems to emulate Elder Tales and work exactly as they should. However real world rules also exist alongside the game rules in the emulated world. Considering the way they go out of the way to play around with and go above and beyond the Game Rules, does that still count as a convenient plot device, seeing as it's the entire point of the show? I mean eventually people start to do things like: All of which are all still within game rules, but with the physics/laws of a 'real' world applied. |
azzuRe said: In this series, I suspect that the Game Rules is a convenient Plot Device that had no reasoning of why they should behave in such ways, I see that you cannot see the plot outside of its mechanism, and that's why you mistaken my trivial question about the said device as an attack to the plot instead of the device. Hmmm. If I guess this right then rather than them being trapped in a world resembling the game Elder Tales you would opt to just trap them in a typical fantasy world/parallel world w/out said plot devices such as game rules and what not. Or maybe a setting in w/c Elder Tales is a VR world designed from the ground up to be as secure and user friendly as possible. If it's a game then just stick to it being a game and if it's reality then don't add unnecessary rules and don't mash the two up so it doesn't get so confusing and unbelievable that it challenges ones threshold for suspension of disbelief. Something like that. While I do understand where you're coming from, in order for Touno sensei to do this he has to change the theme (Lines between game and reality blurring prompting players to question whether it really is just a game or already their new reality) completely. So I guess what bugs you isn't these "plot devices" but the entirety of the story and setting itself. Course this is just me so feel free to correct some things. Cheers. |
| Thats what i've been saying for weeks! Why cant they just walk out!! |
ibrahim2712 said: Thats what i've been saying for weeks! Why cant they just walk out!! They can walk out just fine my friend. But where do they go after? In real life if some kids get caught by a criminal organization most of them'll probably feel afraid of going against their captors for fear of getting punished and/or hurt. Course some attempt to flee but chances of success aren't that high and when and if they do get out they'll just end up wandering the streets, getting caught again or face the predicament of going hungry for weeks. I'm a volunteer social worker and some of the kids I interact w/ have these kinds of experiences before being rescued by NGOs or other organizations. What does this have to do w/ LH you ask? See the entire point of the story is that their trapped in a sort of alternate reality w/c resembles the game a lot but also has a lot of elements from real life - all the sensations felt by the five senses, going hungry, getting sleepy, needing to go to the toilet, PAIN, fear, anxiety, nervous breakdown etc. So it's like the kids are in the exact same situation as the one mentioned above w/ the sole difference being that they can't be killed cuz they resurrect. They can be tortured though. Remember pain is real. If you get wounded you'll feel the pain and the wound will look real. And since the entire guild area is PK enabled the Hamelin members can have their fill of beating them up (or worse) w/out ever going against system rules. The problem w/ LH is it's presented in anime format (and censorship issues need to be addressed) so the impact is milder. If this was live action and they showed all the blood and gore (w/c is freely described in the novels and depicted somewhat w/ less censorship in the manga) it would have been able to get it's point across better. It isn't a game anymore. It's as real as it gets aside from some game elements present and being able to die. |
swordstriker21Dec 2, 2013 10:49 PM
swordstriker21 said: The problem w/ LH is it's presented in anime format (and censorship issues need to be addressed) so the impact is milder. If this was live action and they showed all the blood and gore (w/c is freely described in the novels and depicted somewhat w/ less censorship in the manga) it would have been able to get it's point across better. It isn't a game anymore. It's as real as it gets aside from some game elements present and being able to die. I'm not sure that it is actually this what makes people having trouble with the current arc (this anime?). I don't read the LN, so for me every episode is completely new and I realize some new things about the world they are in. From what I read in different threads, as well as here, it seems sad that the cut down the violence etc. Some nice Information was also missing from time to time - but that could be due to the pacing. However, I think the main problem is that we are used to assume things based on our experiences. We hear about 'trapped in an online game' and it seems clear to us that this game has to have fixed and sophisticated rules. We think: 'it's just a game, it's just a guild'. For me, Log Horizon clearly does NOT have those rules (anymore). There may be some rules - but they seem to only apply if the adventurers do it 'the game system way'. I agree to a certain extent that the game rules unfold just the way they have to, to give the arcs credibility. I don't see it as a problem though. I accept the rules they'll explain, because it creates interessting circumstances. One Piece does the same thing in my opinion - it just never claimed to take place in a virtual reality game. Maybe this is the problem for us: real live is real. MMORPGs are real. Log Horizons reality however is not - it's just another fantasy world, where we don't know ANY rules. |
DivAsakust said: Sorry if I'm still missing your point, I just don't understand that gobble-dee-gook. But as a novel reader, the only thing I can say is, the Game Rules are just that, game rules, they are fully enforced in the game Elder Tales and in the world that seems to emulate Elder Tales and work exactly as they should. However real world rules also exist alongside the game rules in the emulated world. DivAsakust said: All of which are all still within game rules, but with the physics/laws of a 'real' world applied. Yes, we're almost there, well, you see the problem that happened between the two world 'rules/logic' collides (game and reality), especially when the game rules enter a grey zone where they can be manipulated or replaced by real world rules? As swordstriker21 has said, it really rocks my suspension of disbelief, I don't buy the game rules anymore when it was proven inconsistent on what works and whats not. At this point I even convinced that someone could blow a huge hole (dunno, with something) on someone's guild hall and let anyone in or out without their owner permission, just like the real world. That's why I feels that the whole 'Game Rules' itself is totally bendable, not absolute, and the only thing that controls it's behavior is the authors hand that mold the plot. swordstriker21 said: azzuRe said: In this series, I suspect that the Game Rules is a convenient Plot Device that had no reasoning of why they should behave in such ways, I see that you cannot see the plot outside of its mechanism, and that's why you mistaken my trivial question about the said device as an attack to the plot instead of the device. Hmmm. If I guess this right then rather than them being trapped in a world resembling the game Elder Tales you would opt to just trap them in a typical fantasy world/parallel world w/out said plot devices such as game rules and what not. Or maybe a setting in w/c Elder Tales is a VR world designed from the ground up to be as secure and user friendly as possible. If it's a game then just stick to it being a game and if it's reality then don't add unnecessary rules and don't mash the two up so it doesn't get so confusing and unbelievable that it challenges ones threshold for suspension of disbelief. Something like that. While I do understand where you're coming from, in order for Touno sensei to do this he has to change the theme (Lines between game and reality blurring prompting players to question whether it really is just a game or already their new reality) completely. So I guess what bugs you isn't these "plot devices" but the entirety of the story and setting itself. Course this is just me so feel free to correct some things. Cheers. After thinking for a while, I think it's both, lol. I always swept in the adventure side of the story and often seeing the game rules just as 'rules' that is set to us (therefore the 'option lock' logic before). Indeed that every dilemma that popped up in LH this far arose from those rules conflicts with reality. My problem is that I lack the suspension to digest it as an integral part of the world setting and plot building. slomo said: However, I think the main problem is that we are used to assume things based on our experiences. We hear about 'trapped in an online game' and it seems clear to us that this game has to have fixed and sophisticated rules. We think: 'it's just a game, it's just a guild'. For me, Log Horizon clearly does NOT have those rules (anymore). There may be some rules - but they seem to only apply if the adventurers do it 'the game system way'. I agree to a certain extent that the game rules unfold just the way they have to, to give the arcs credibility. I don't see it as a problem though. I accept the rules they'll explain, because it creates interessting circumstances. One Piece does the same thing in my opinion - it just never claimed to take place in a virtual reality game. Maybe this is the problem for us: real live is real. MMORPGs are real. Log Horizons reality however is not - it's just another fantasy world, where we don't know ANY rules. I think you're right, to this point I always assumed that the game rules simply ported into the new world, but to see in another perspective, the said rules does not works the same anymore, or it was evolved by introducing reality rules into it. It is safe if we say that it is now a completely different rules (albeit similar to the game) that no one knows of how it would work out. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
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