Are you an evolutionist or a creationist?
Zmffkskem said: Hawking radiation could be observed in the near future. I think that's enough proof of quantum effects on gravity. Also, it's not too ridiculous to consider the relation between volumes and spheres. If you further consider their relation, the idea of 3D->2D or 2D->3D is not very far-fetched. A sphere, necessarily, has a 2D shape related to it, and a 2D shape, necessarily, would have a 3D shape related to it (even if it is infinite, open, and very ill-defined) And this is useful why? |
| I feel a lot of people are using the "God fills in the gaps" strategy to put god in the picture haha. What I mean by that is people seem to say whatever science cannot explain, the reason must be that god might be involved. No offence to people who do it, but I just find it kind of funny =D. |
 "I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
DarkShards said: I feel a lot of people are using the "God fills in the gaps" strategy to put god in the picture haha. What I mean by that is people seem to say whatever science cannot explain, the reason must be that god might be involved. No offence to people who do it, but I just find it kind of funny =D. Just look how we have evolved in explaining god. First god/gods were described as natural phenomena, sun, rain, moon etc. Then it devolved into the supernatural to explain diseases and other areas science couldn't explain. Now the whole notion of god has devolved into a metaphysical argument. Rofl. Edit: Even if we use logic to prove god has inherit contradictions by it's definition, they will just say we can't apply logic to god and that it's outside our understanding, which begs the question? How the fuck do they know god exists for certain lol? |
CitizeninsaneMay 2, 2012 11:31 AM
| People are stupid because they believe in God <-> people are stupid because they don't believe in God. Preaching Evolutionist or preaching Creationist- sometimes it seems both Groups are almost on the same level of stupidity. I for myself don't really care about it. But i don't think some kind of "God" will greet me when i'm dead or something like that. :3 |
Baman said: one-more-time said: Except saying there is no god is (or almost) just as dumb as saying there is one.It's plain simple - there is no god, there is no purpose in life other than reproduce, creationism is dumb, science is the way. If science is the way, then the real answer is that we don't know, even if we know the world was not made out of the bones of a cosmic cow or created in seven days, we still don't know if gods exist or not. God doesn't exist because God is impossible to find. If we actually "find" what made us it doesn't mean it's a god or our concept of god, just because you've created some thing it doesn't mean your a god. If we can understand a god, then it's no longer a god. We might appear to be gods to ants because we are so beyond their comprehension, and we can easily change the course of their lives, but if they found out what we are really about, then they would realize we aren't much different from them. Now if god is truly this infinite being, meta physical, and omnipresent then how would we ever know we found it? |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| what is there even to discuss? one side has arguments based on observation and applying logic to that. the other side says "NO WTF IT WAS GOD!!11". Discussion is useless when one side defies logic.. |
HMP13 said: How so? Evolution is based on objective facts, there's no preaching involved, but simply stating the truth.Preaching Evolutionist or preaching Creationist- sometimes it seems both Groups are almost on the same level of stupidity. Jigero said: Come on now. If a god exist, then as long as it does not actively try to steer us away from finding it, we probably will eventually. And just because we haven't yet does not mean it doesn't exist.God doesn't exist because God is impossible to find. If we actually "find" what made us it doesn't mean it's a god or our concept of god, just because you've created some thing it doesn't mean your a god. If we can understand a god, then it's no longer a god. We might appear to be gods to ants because we are so beyond their comprehension, and we can easily change the course of their lives, but if they found out what we are really about, then they would realize we aren't much different from them. That depends on the definition of god. If it's merely a relative god, then of course it will cease to be one if we reach it's level. But many gods are supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, meaning even if it is possible for us to reach that level, the god can push us down the stairs if it likes. Also, even if ants were intelligent enough to understand what humans are, we would still be huge, and armed to the teeth with poison sprays and boots. Even if we found some almighty god and managed to understand what kind of being it was, that doesn't mean we'd be able to reach it's level. If it is omnipotent then obviously we would only be able to do so if it lets us, and thus it will remain a "god" in that sense for as long as it desires. |
Baman said: HMP13 said: How so? Evolution is based on objective facts, there's no preaching involved, but simply stating the truth.Preaching Evolutionist or preaching Creationist- sometimes it seems both Groups are almost on the same level of stupidity. Jigero said: Come on now. If a god exist, then as long as it does not actively try to steer us away from finding it, we probably will eventually. And just because we haven't yet does not mean it doesn't exist.God doesn't exist because God is impossible to find. If we actually "find" what made us it doesn't mean it's a god or our concept of god, just because you've created some thing it doesn't mean your a god. If we can understand a god, then it's no longer a god. We might appear to be gods to ants because we are so beyond their comprehension, and we can easily change the course of their lives, but if they found out what we are really about, then they would realize we aren't much different from them. That depends on the definition of god. If it's merely a relative god, then of course it will cease to be one if we reach it's level. But many gods are supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, meaning even if it is possible for us to reach that level, the god can push us down the stairs if it likes. Also, even if ants were intelligent enough to understand what humans are, we would still be huge, and armed to the teeth with poison sprays and boots. Even if we found some almighty god and managed to understand what kind of being it was, that doesn't mean we'd be able to reach it's level. If it is omnipotent then obviously we would only be able to do so if it lets us, and thus it will remain a "god" in that sense for as long as it desires. How does it being omniscient make it god? Because some thing is more powerful then you, again it doesn't make it a god. Is your Boss at work a god, because he has authority over you and tells you what to do day in day out while at work and essentially controls your life? I'm not saying something couldn't have created us, or control what we do, I'm just saying that it doesn't make it a god if it did. It had to come from some where. The term "god" is basically a substitute for "I don't understand how this works" once you understand, then the term god is useless. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
Jigero said: Omniscience and omnipotence obviously makes a god, if not the whole term is pointless. And comparing that to any known situation doesn't cut it since omniscience and omnipotence does not exist on this planet, and as far as we know it's probably impossible. How does it being omniscient make it god? Because some thing is more powerful then you, again it doesn't make it a god. But if someone was almighty, then he'd be able to control everything in the whole universe at a whim. Now if that doesn't make a god, then what does? And yes, just like I said, if some more advanced aliens engineered our evolution, then they would not be gods the moment we understand that they are natural beings just like us with only a lot better sciency gadgets. But if we found out that our creator was, for all intents and purposes, almighty, then our understanding does not matter, we'd still be inferior and subject to it's mercy. And then what else would we call it but god? |
| I know for sure, and all can agree, that the Universe is cold, empty, and indifferent to our wishes. It is also full if holes. Black holes, assholes, holes in your theories, holy rollers, enough holes to fill with your bullshit of choice, in other words. See how poetry and philosophy trump academic wankery? :p Now go find a hole of your own to crawl into. |
Baman said: But if we found out that our creator was, for all intents and purposes, almighty, then our understanding does not matter, we'd still be inferior and subject to it's mercy. And then what else would we call it but god? We would though if such a being existed, have a superior tenet of morality. |
| It needs to be mentioned, that when we use 'god' in a discussion, it is generally a given that in the English language and in a Christian dominated society, one is not normally referring to someone OTHER than the Bible individual known as god (the upper case G version). Thus, wandering off into the speculative and the imaginative musings of god and or gods plural of a sort not specifically referencing the dude called God, you know, the mysognist virgin raping child killer (hey, just pointing out he confesses to all of it in his book eh) of the Bible, aka Yaweh, tends to muddy the waters pointlessly. Christians are not arguing for other forms or conceptualizations of a divine otherworldly personage. They are not claiming some individual is responsible. Nope, they are only interested in the guy in their book. Remember, no proof of something is the same as zero reason to care if it exists too. Not wishing to believe in faciful notions merely means a person considers their time to valuable to waste on what could be mistaken as doing drugs. |
| While not technically anime, currently I am a big fan of Hatsune Miku. At least I can go see her in concert. |
Lesley_Roberta said: It needs to be mentioned, that when we use 'god' in a discussion, it is generally a given that in the English language and in a Christian dominated society, one is not normally referring to someone OTHER than the Bible individual known as god (the upper case G version). It's also quite common in these discussions that god and creator are same thing so this argument usually ends up lasting longer than it should. Apparently someone who created a pile of poo that ended up evolving into humans is not allowed. :/ |
| i dont know how they came up with the big bang theory, so i cant really say much about it, but i know how they came up with evolution, so i see that as a fact. and i know ppl have their right to have their opinions and such, but ppl who are telling me that some god came and made us all, is an idiot in my book. though i can understand that if you have lived with ppl who belive in god and have a closed mindset, then it might be hard to really think rationality |
| . |
| Evolution is backed by evidence, creation is not. |
Baman said: Jigero said: Omniscience and omnipotence obviously makes a god, if not the whole term is pointless. And comparing that to any known situation doesn't cut it since omniscience and omnipotence does not exist on this planet, and as far as we know it's probably impossible. How does it being omniscient make it god? Because some thing is more powerful then you, again it doesn't make it a god. But if someone was almighty, then he'd be able to control everything in the whole universe at a whim. Now if that doesn't make a god, then what does? And yes, just like I said, if some more advanced aliens engineered our evolution, then they would not be gods the moment we understand that they are natural beings just like us with only a lot better sciency gadgets. But if we found out that our creator was, for all intents and purposes, almighty, then our understanding does not matter, we'd still be inferior and subject to it's mercy. And then what else would we call it but god? Your only saying why it is god, instead question why should it be called god. Simply being superior makes it a god? Because it can tell us what to do? it should be worshiped and and revered? Should a King simply be obliged because he's a king? |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
Jigero said: Your only saying why it is god, instead question why should it be called god. Simply being superior makes it a god? Because it can tell us what to do? it should be worshiped and and revered? Should a King simply be obliged because he's a king? In the understanding of GOD in a christian tone, one of the things he gave us was freewill. So No, GOD can't, or doesn't tell us what to do. Thats your choice to do stuff. But some people believe that he guides us through miracles or happenings to point out the 'right' way. Essentially he is a hands off creator, it's the clockmaker argument, he made the universe but he doesn't affect it's outcome because he wants to see what happens. Etc. |
Alpha-kudasu said: In the understanding of GOD in a christian tone, one of the things he gave us was freewill. So No, GOD can't, or doesn't tell us what to do. Thats your choice to do stuff. But some people believe that he guides us through miracles or happenings to point out the 'right' way. Essentially he is a hands off creator, it's the clockmaker argument, he made the universe but he doesn't affect it's outcome because he wants to see what happens. Etc. Too bad freewill can't coexist with a god that is defined as omniscient. Edit: "He gave us freewill" the problem with that statement is that it's inherently inconsistent, you can't give a being freewill because by definition that choice diverges into one case where freewill exists and the other where it doesn't, the fact that you can't choose between the two falsifies freewill. |
CitizeninsaneMay 2, 2012 5:33 PM
Alpha-kudasu said: Jigero said: Your only saying why it is god, instead question why should it be called god. Simply being superior makes it a god? Because it can tell us what to do? it should be worshiped and and revered? Should a King simply be obliged because he's a king? In the understanding of GOD in a christian tone, one of the things he gave us was freewill. So No, GOD can't, or doesn't tell us what to do. Thats your choice to do stuff. But some people believe that he guides us through miracles or happenings to point out the 'right' way. Essentially he is a hands off creator, it's the clockmaker argument, he made the universe but he doesn't affect it's outcome because he wants to see what happens. Etc. From my understanding of Genesis, didn't he make Adam and Eve sort of like animals? Just living blissfully unaware in Eden, until they committed the grave "sin" of acquiring knowledge? Doesn't sound like free will to me, where he punishes all of humanity for gaining the very thing that makes us unique. |
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Narmy said: Alpha-kudasu said: Jigero said: Your only saying why it is god, instead question why should it be called god. Simply being superior makes it a god? Because it can tell us what to do? it should be worshiped and and revered? Should a King simply be obliged because he's a king? In the understanding of GOD in a christian tone, one of the things he gave us was freewill. So No, GOD can't, or doesn't tell us what to do. Thats your choice to do stuff. But some people believe that he guides us through miracles or happenings to point out the 'right' way. Essentially he is a hands off creator, it's the clockmaker argument, he made the universe but he doesn't affect it's outcome because he wants to see what happens. Etc. From my understanding of Genesis, didn't he make Adam and Eve sort of like animals? Just living blissfully unaware in Eden, until they committed the grave "sin" of acquiring knowledge? Doesn't sound like free will to me, where he punishes all of humanity for gaining the very thing that makes us unique. He could have killed them. He could have condemned them to walk the earth forever, barren, childless. He could have separated them. He could have wiped their minds of that knowledge. Instead, he allowed them the companionship of each other, he allowed them to have children, to love, to grow and to be together. He said No about ONE thing - and one thing only. He didn't forbid sex, he didn't forbid anything else they wanted - he was an exceedingly indulgent parent, with one rule - touch this and all this is gone. You see it as an extreme punishment - god likely didn't mean it that way, and it was likely his intent to have them disobey so he could send them out to breed and populate the world. |
| "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that" |
Zatoichi said: He could have killed them. He could have condemned them to walk the earth forever, barren, childless. He could have separated them. He could have wiped their minds of that knowledge. Instead, he allowed them the companionship of each other, he allowed them to have children, to love, to grow and to be together. He said No about ONE thing - and one thing only. He didn't forbid sex, he didn't forbid anything else they wanted - he was an exceedingly indulgent parent, with one rule - touch this and all this is gone. You see it as an extreme punishment - god likely didn't mean it that way, and it was likely his intent to have them disobey so he could send them out to breed and populate the world. Breed and populate the world with a percentage of heathens who would be burned for eternity. Imo I would of just chosen the former. |
Citizeninsane said: Zatoichi said: He could have killed them. He could have condemned them to walk the earth forever, barren, childless. He could have separated them. He could have wiped their minds of that knowledge. Instead, he allowed them the companionship of each other, he allowed them to have children, to love, to grow and to be together. He said No about ONE thing - and one thing only. He didn't forbid sex, he didn't forbid anything else they wanted - he was an exceedingly indulgent parent, with one rule - touch this and all this is gone. You see it as an extreme punishment - god likely didn't mean it that way, and it was likely his intent to have them disobey so he could send them out to breed and populate the world. Breed and populate the world with a percentage of heathens who would be burned for eternity. Imo I would of just chosen the former. Some things in life are bad They can really make you mad Other things just make you swear and curse. When you're chewing on life's gristle Don't grumble, give a whistle And this'll help things turn out for the best... And...always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the light side of life... If life seems jolly rotten There's something you've forgotten And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing. When you're feeling in the dumps Don't be silly chumps Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing. And...always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the light side of life... For life is quite absurd And death's the final word You must always face the curtain with a bow. Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow. So always look on the bright side of death Just before you draw your terminal breath Life's a piece of shit When you look at it Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true. You'll see it's all a show Keep 'em laughing as you go Just remember that the last laugh is on you. And always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the right side of life... (Come on guys, cheer up!) Always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the bright side of life... (Worse things happen at sea, you know.) Always look on the bright side of life... (I mean - what have you got to lose?) (You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!) Always look on the right side of life... |
| "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that" |
Zatoichi said: Blah blah blah... This does nothing to compensate for the infinite amount of suffering that god will inflict. Just kill the souls that don't "believe". |
| Zatoichi, I've love to see how you say that with a straight face to children suffering from hunger, people suffering terminal illnesses, holocaust victims, ... . And, I guess, you don't care for animals, suffering for the sake of human addiction to meat, nor any other conscious being. Look at the bright side of life! LOL. You can put it where sun never shines. |
| LUL |
one-more-time said: Zatoichi, I've love to see how you say that with a straight face to children suffering from hunger, people suffering terminal illnesses, holocaust victims, ... . And, I guess, you don't care for animals, suffering for the sake of human addiction to meat, nor any other conscious being. Look at the bright side of life! LOL. You can put it where sun never shines. What's better than looking on the bright side of life? what can these people do anyways other than that? wait for death? or take their own life away? or just wish they were never born? |
| "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that" |
| Logically disprove god is a good one. Too bad they can't even attain the basic necessities to even contemplate anything other then what they are going to eat. |
Zatoichi said: What's better than looking on the bright side of life? what can these people do anyways other than that? wait for death? or take their own life away? or just wish they were never born? When a beast is chewing his prey - "Cheer up! Look at the bright side of life!" When one is in such pain and misery that he literally begs for death - "Cheer up!" The carnage outside the window is fun and laughter. I mean.. REALLY? |
| LUL |
one-more-time said: Zatoichi said: What's better than looking on the bright side of life? what can these people do anyways other than that? wait for death? or take their own life away? or just wish they were never born? When a beast is chewing his prey - "Cheer up! Look at the bright side of life!" When one is in such pain and misery that he literally begs for death - "Cheer up!" The carnage outside the window is fun and laughter. I mean.. REALLY? That's just too extreme. Nonsensical. |
| "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that" |
| From what I understand of biology, evolution makes both common and scientific sense. Of course, I have no idea if a god created the universe to begin with, and since there's no way to prove it wrong, there will forever remain the possibility of a god existing. |
Jigero said: Well, god is usually applied to seemingly supernatural beings with incredible powers, and often described as being almighty. We could call it a apple, knirf or debraliuk if we wanted to but "god" is after all the most commonly used word to describe something with those supposed abilities. No point in inventing a new one I should think.Your only saying why it is god, instead question why should it be called god. Simply being superior makes it a god? Because it can tell us what to do? it should be worshiped and and revered? Should a King simply be obliged because he's a king? And just because we call something a god does not mean we have to worship it of course, up through history we've had lots of civilizations with several gods, and people didn't necessarily worship all of them. Hell, as humans we should really attempt to kill it and take it's position or die trying as far as I am concerned. Unless he's a really chill bro that we can all get along with of course, but going by the track record, that seems unlikely. But again, the king example doesn't cut it in the case of a almighty god. We can overthrow a bad king, but not a almighty god, at least, not unless he lets us, which is probably unlikely. Citizeninsane said: I've always thought the same whenever the theists pull that card. Sure, the god gives us "free will", but in the quality of being omniscient, he already knows exactly every little detail about all the choices we will ever make. So even if free will actually is free for us, he will still be sitting with all the answers, and thus be watching as we commit sins he knew all along we would, because he designed us to, and then still punish us for them. Thus, firmly casting him as a malevolent entity.Too bad freewill can't coexist with a god that is defined as omniscient. Edit: "He gave us freewill" the problem with that statement is that it's inherently inconsistent, you can't give a being freewill because by definition that choice diverges into one case where freewill exists and the other where it doesn't, the fact that you can't choose between the two falsifies freewill. It's like a game designer that makes a game with different choices, it's hardly free will when we have to choose from a specified pool of actions, in this case determined by the cumulated sum of our biology, psychology and history. Only at least with the "free choice" games, we still have the ability to choose the red, green or blue explosions, and the developers don't really know what we will choose. While god on the other hand is probably smirking as we make all the wrong choices that eventually dooms us to a second death in the lake of fire. So yea, going by the Bible, god is evil, end of story. |
Zatoichi said: That's just too extreme. Nonsensical. So, what they're feeling doesn't matter at all? Animals eating each other, animals kept in a miserable conditions to get slaughtered for meat, people suffering physical and mental pain, people suffering hunger, not having access to clean water - "Look at the bright side of life - at least you have a dirt house!". Shit, man, I can go on forever like this. If you can say "Look at the bright side of life" to a kid, who's suffering from hunger, with a straight face.. then you're a lunatic. Seriously, take your eyes out of your ass. It's sure easy to say how you have to look at the life with a smile and laugh at misfortune behind your screen, LOL. Such ignorance. |
| LUL |
one-more-time said: Zatoichi said: That's just too extreme. Nonsensical. So, what they're feeling doesn't matter at all? Animals eating each other, animals kept in a miserable conditions to get slaughtered for meat, people suffering physical and mental pain, people suffering hunger, not having access to clean water - "Look at the bright side of life - at least you have a dirt house!". Shit, man, I can go on forever like this. If you can say "Look at the bright side of life" to a kid, who's suffering from hunger, with a straight face.. then you're a lunatic. Seriously, take your eyes out of your ass. It's sure easy to say how you have to look at the life with a smile and laugh at misfortune behind your screen, LOL. Such ignorance. Like i've said. You're thinking is far too extreme. I'm not saying you should always look on the bright side of life. What I mean is what else would you do? what else could you do to make life bearable? |
| "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that" |
Zatoichi said: Like i've said. You're thinking is far too extreme. I'm not saying you should always look on the bright side of life. What I mean is what else would you do? what else could you do to make life bearable? My thinking is not far too extreme, that shit is happening every day. Let's take something less extreme. Is it okay for me to say when one loses his arm or a leg? Well, that's not that extreme you know, the other is still there. The life is not over, just some accessories needed, like wheelchair or artificial limb. Aww yeahh, life is fun! Always try to see a good whenever something bad happens! Yeah (: Pardon, but I'm going to watch Casshern Sins and get some sleep. |
| LUL |
Baman said: Citizeninsane said: I've always thought the same whenever the theists pull that card. Sure, the god gives us "free will", but in the quality of being omniscient, he already knows exactly every little detail about all the choices we will ever make. So even if free will actually is free for us, he will still be sitting with all the answers, and thus be watching as we commit sins he knew all along we would, because he designed us to, and then still punish us for them. Thus, firmly casting him as a malevolent entity.Too bad freewill can't coexist with a god that is defined as omniscient. Edit: "He gave us freewill" the problem with that statement is that it's inherently inconsistent, you can't give a being freewill because by definition that choice diverges into one case where freewill exists and the other where it doesn't, the fact that you can't choose between the two falsifies freewill. It's like a game designer that makes a game with different choices, it's hardly free will when we have to choose from a specified pool of actions, in this case determined by the cumulated sum of our biology, psychology and history. Only at least with the "free choice" games, we still have the ability to choose the red, green or blue explosions, and the developers don't really know what we will choose. While god on the other hand is probably smirking as we make all the wrong choices that eventually dooms us to a second death in the lake of fire. So yea, going by the Bible, god is evil, end of story. This does not support my actual view of god existence, but I will say it anyways. With the argument with freedom and an omniscient god, do you have to actually know everything to be omniscient? There are actually two different kinds of omniscience. The ability to know everything at will is inherent omniscience and actually knowing everything is total omniscience. Perhaps if God actually exists, then he has inherent omniscience, therefore, he may not choose to know the results of humans and therefore, it follows that this kind of God may not be "evil" because this kind of God may not know the evils that happen in the world, but has the ability to know if he decides to want to know. |
"I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
| The freewill argument earlier reminds me of a Christopher Hitchens quote: "Of course you have free will - the boss insists on it." |
DarkShards said: Then that God is willfully ignorant despite having the power to end suffering. Not exactly a hallmark trait for something people are supposed to worship.This does not support my actual view of god existence, but I will say it anyways. With the argument with freedom and an omniscient god, do you have to actually know everything to be omniscient? There are actually two different kinds of omniscience. The ability to know everything at will is inherent omniscience and actually knowing everything is total omniscience. Perhaps if God actually exists, then he has inherent omniscience, therefore, he may not choose to know the results of humans and therefore, it follows that this kind of God may not be "evil" because this kind of God may not know the evils that happen in the world, but has the ability to know if he decides to want to know. |
one-more-time said: Zatoichi said: Like i've said. You're thinking is far too extreme. I'm not saying you should always look on the bright side of life. What I mean is what else would you do? what else could you do to make life bearable? My thinking is not far too extreme, that shit is happening every day. Let's take something less extreme. Is it okay for me to say when one loses his arm or a leg? Well, that's not that extreme you know, the other is still there. The life is not over, just some accessories needed, like wheelchair or artificial limb. Aww yeahh, life is fun! Always try to see a good whenever something bad happens! Yeah (: Pardon, but I'm going to watch Casshern Sins and get some sleep. You didn't really add anything of value. You're just repeating yourself. Stephen Hawking is now almost completely paralyzed. Yet somehow he has the strength to continue with his research and come up with theories. When he was first diagnosed life wasn't over for him was it? another example is Hellen Keller. She was the first deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree. Instead of dwelling in depression or misery. These people looked on the bright side of life =D |
| "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that" |
DarkShards said: This does not support my actual view of god existence, but I will say it anyways. With the argument with freedom and an omniscient god, do you have to actually know everything to be omniscient? There are actually two different kinds of omniscience. The ability to know everything at will is inherent omniscience and actually knowing everything is total omniscience. Perhaps if God actually exists, then he has inherent omniscience, therefore, he may not choose to know the results of humans and therefore, it follows that this kind of God may not be "evil" because this kind of God may not know the evils that happen in the world, but has the ability to know if he decides to want to know. Doesn't explain why give you'd someone the option of being evil only to punish him for choosing it. God is a troll. |
DarkShards said: Well, yes, I suppose that could work. Or he could use his omnipotence to temporarily limit his omniscience. The ability to know everything at will is inherent omniscience and actually knowing everything is total omniscience. Perhaps if God actually exists, then he has inherent omniscience, therefore, he may not choose to know the results of humans and therefore, it follows that this kind of God may not be "evil" because this kind of God may not know the evils that happen in the world, but has the ability to know if he decides to want to know. Still, it would depend on how the religions define the omniscience of their god. If they say he knows everything, then that's that. Plus the logic of actually punishing his creations for what is essentially design flaws, regardless of whether he knows everyone's exact choices, is pretty sketchy. After all, in being omnipotent, he defines the morality in question, and conveniently happen to pick out things as being "bad" that he have already designed his little monkeys to have a natural inclination towards. It's pretty much like training your dog to bark at strangers and then kick him whenever he does it, and then excuse it all as some "test". |
Day2Dream said: DarkShards said: This does not support my actual view of god existence, but I will say it anyways. With the argument with freedom and an omniscient god, do you have to actually know everything to be omniscient? There are actually two different kinds of omniscience. The ability to know everything at will is inherent omniscience and actually knowing everything is total omniscience. Perhaps if God actually exists, then he has inherent omniscience, therefore, he may not choose to know the results of humans and therefore, it follows that this kind of God may not be "evil" because this kind of God may not know the evils that happen in the world, but has the ability to know if he decides to want to know. Doesn't explain why give you'd someone the option of being evil only to punish him for choosing it. God is a troll. If God does not give the option of being evil, then god has not granted freedom. It is commonly said by philosophers who fight for gods existence that freedom given by God comes at the price of at least some amount of evil. And this statement is going along with the assumption that God is interested in punishing evil. |
DarkShardsMay 2, 2012 8:20 PM
"I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
Citizeninsane said: Alpha-kudasu said: In the understanding of GOD in a christian tone, one of the things he gave us was freewill. So No, GOD can't, or doesn't tell us what to do. Thats your choice to do stuff. But some people believe that he guides us through miracles or happenings to point out the 'right' way. Essentially he is a hands off creator, it's the clockmaker argument, he made the universe but he doesn't affect it's outcome because he wants to see what happens. Etc. Too bad freewill can't coexist with a god that is defined as omniscient. Edit: "He gave us freewill" the problem with that statement is that it's inherently inconsistent, you can't give a being freewill because by definition that choice diverges into one case where freewill exists and the other where it doesn't, the fact that you can't choose between the two falsifies freewill. No. You can be Omniscient and control everything, choosing NOT to control everything is a choice that one such eing can make. Just as any human can make, hence the whole God made man in his image ideology. Just because I CAN do something, doesn't mean I will. So why is there bad things in the world, and why does god do nothing about it. Because he wants YOU, and EVERYONE else, to do it to prove they know what it is and what he is. |
Alpha-kudasu said: traed said: Alpha-kudasu said: its not a whacko theory it has to do with black holes and quantom physics and shit .... its actual science to its theorytraed said: Actually i saw something that gave evidence this is a virtual reality. For one thing our 3 dimensions are thought to be 2 dimensional data at the ends of the universe casting our hollogram like images and also when you dont look at an object its mass isnt stabilized so its almost as if its pixelated in a way. I think you're over simplifying what a Holographic universe is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle And it's just another whacko theory. I have a theory the universe is actually made of cheese and love and it has something to do with how quantum mechanics says that everything is technically cheese at some point and love is the best, like a black hole it consumes you entirely forcing the cheese particles to be made. I even drew an awesome chart in photoshop. But this is a it off topic now I think. But no proof. And that really my point. It's a good theory, but it is just that. And to be honest it doesn't do anything either. This is where science becomes retarded, because what practicable application can this have exactly. I think it's great, and it makes you think ''woe far out man'' and i'm sure that must make stoners really happy. But how does this actually help with real life issues. Now, cloning, medicine, and Rocket science are things I can understand. But theoretical quantum physics just leaves me feeling sad for all the money wasted on it. Actually it is significant since it means that our data isnt destroyed. It helps explain why we are still here and stuff. Please note my mind can only absorb so much nfo at a time so im kind of simplifying it since i dont know all the complex details since im not a theoretical physicist. String theory and M theory also have no proof or even evidence just theoretical stuff. Thats why its called theoretical physics. Not every scientists can be a doctor and you have to keep in mind that completely unrelated things sometimes turn out being related so even if someone is researching one thing it could lead to unexpected results in other frields of science. Sebulon said: Not sure how true that is without the source but at least you used a good example while everyone else didnt use anything. Although I would have prefered "a god like force" over "god" in that statement thoughHumans have already created a perfect copy of a simple living cell, but the cell didn't start to live even though it was a perfect copy. Why? What is it that makes things live? Maybe it's what god does. Baman said: Not everyone agrees on what should be the definition of a god.Thats why there are Ignostics, people who say. "Do i beleive in a god? I dont even know what that is supposed to be"Jigero said: Omniscience and omnipotence obviously makes a god, if not the whole term is pointless. And comparing that to any known situation doesn't cut it since omniscience and omnipotence does not exist on this planet, and as far as we know it's probably impossible. How does it being omniscient make it god? Because some thing is more powerful then you, again it doesn't make it a god. But if someone was almighty, then he'd be able to control everything in the whole universe at a whim. Now if that doesn't make a god, then what does? And yes, just like I said, if some more advanced aliens engineered our evolution, then they would not be gods the moment we understand that they are natural beings just like us with only a lot better sciency gadgets. But if we found out that our creator was, for all intents and purposes, almighty, then our understanding does not matter, we'd still be inferior and subject to it's mercy. And then what else would we call it but god? LordMorioka said: Actually they will counter that with "We have creation science" which of course isnt really science since it doesnt follow the scientific method at all. Evolution is backed by evidence, creation is not. Zatoichi said: Dont know why anyone would worship a sadistic god who makes things like that happen. Its all over the bible.one-more-time said: Zatoichi said: What's better than looking on the bright side of life? what can these people do anyways other than that? wait for death? or take their own life away? or just wish they were never born? When a beast is chewing his prey - "Cheer up! Look at the bright side of life!" When one is in such pain and misery that he literally begs for death - "Cheer up!" The carnage outside the window is fun and laughter. I mean.. REALLY? That's just too extreme. Nonsensical. |
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traed said: Well, pip pop, gods don't exist as far as we know anyways, so the definitions aren't that important. It's just about using a word to describe a theoretical mythological creature, whether that be some mortal entity whose only difference from us is their relative power or some exaggerated all powerful eye in the sky. And when the related mythological accounts describe their magical creatures as gods, then why not just go with that.Not everyone agrees on what should be the definition of a god.Thats why there are Ignostics, people who say. "Do i beleive in a god? I dont even know what that is supposed to be" |
| I follow the tenets of Gregory House with respect to responding to religious people that subscribe to the sadistic god of the bible. |
DarkShards said: Day2Dream said: DarkShards said: This does not support my actual view of god existence, but I will say it anyways. With the argument with freedom and an omniscient god, do you have to actually know everything to be omniscient? There are actually two different kinds of omniscience. The ability to know everything at will is inherent omniscience and actually knowing everything is total omniscience. Perhaps if God actually exists, then he has inherent omniscience, therefore, he may not choose to know the results of humans and therefore, it follows that this kind of God may not be "evil" because this kind of God may not know the evils that happen in the world, but has the ability to know if he decides to want to know. Doesn't explain why give you'd someone the option of being evil only to punish him for choosing it. God is a troll. If God does not give the option of being evil, then god has not granted freedom. It is commonly said by philosophers who fight for gods existence that freedom given by God comes at the price of at least some amount of evil. And this statement is going along with the assumption that God is interested in punishing evil. saying evil people have just failed gods test... this story is grouped well with science is just gods test ... god has too many tests that's just saying no matter how many hard facts and evidence you come up with it's still just "god testing you" .... all that equals is a way for christians to ignore any proof we might find >.> ... if christianity is a hoax *probably is* it would be the biggest and easiest hoax ever. just tell people "if you don't believe you go to hell" and no body knows any different =/ numbers, physics, observation > book, faith |
Alpha-kudasu said: Citizeninsane said: Alpha-kudasu said: In the understanding of GOD in a christian tone, one of the things he gave us was freewill. So No, GOD can't, or doesn't tell us what to do. Thats your choice to do stuff. But some people believe that he guides us through miracles or happenings to point out the 'right' way. Essentially he is a hands off creator, it's the clockmaker argument, he made the universe but he doesn't affect it's outcome because he wants to see what happens. Etc. Too bad freewill can't coexist with a god that is defined as omniscient. Edit: "He gave us freewill" the problem with that statement is that it's inherently inconsistent, you can't give a being freewill because by definition that choice diverges into one case where freewill exists and the other where it doesn't, the fact that you can't choose between the two falsifies freewill. No. You can be Omniscient and control everything, choosing NOT to control everything is a choice that one such eing can make. Just as any human can make, hence the whole God made man in his image ideology. Just because I CAN do something, doesn't mean I will. So why is there bad things in the world, and why does god do nothing about it. Because he wants YOU, and EVERYONE else, to do it to prove they know what it is and what he is. What you said is the same as if I had someone dying right in front of me and I had the tools to save him and decided to give him the tools to operate on himself while I watched and cheered him on saying YOU CAN DO IT BRO! God has the ability to end all suffering instantly; thus he is a malevolent deity because he let the guy bleed to death while watching him operate on himself. Edit: On a side note the difference between myself and the deity are that it has endless resources while if I could, I would help those in need if I had those resources. |
CitizeninsaneMay 2, 2012 8:48 PM
Baman said: There are other concepts though like the Tao and the Akoshik records sortatraed said: Well, pip pop, gods don't exist as far as we know anyways, so the definitions aren't that important. It's just about using a word to describe a theoretical mythological creature, whether that be some mortal entity whose only difference from us is their relative power or some exaggerated all powerful eye in the sky. And when the related mythological accounts describe their magical creatures as gods, then why not just go with that.Not everyone agrees on what should be the definition of a god.Thats why there are Ignostics, people who say. "Do i beleive in a god? I dont even know what that is supposed to be" |
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Alpha-kudasu said: So why is there bad things in the world, and why does god do nothing about it. Because he wants YOU, and EVERYONE else, to do it to prove they know what it is and what he is. I disagree, the god portrayed in the bible is capricious and outright malevolent at times. Take the book of Job for instance, it is a great example imo, of god's "nature". He essentially makes a wager with satan. Job loses his house, his servants, his wife, his kids, is stricken with various physical afflictions, and all for what? So god could prove a point to satan? It's awfully callous to do so. Now let's put two people in this situation, you are witness to a crime, you have the ability to intervene with no risk to yourself, but choose not too. Most would consider this immoral, some would even consider it a crime....yet this is what happened to a man of "faith". At any rate, when Job whines and cries out, god tells him essentially "who are you to question me." Now I fully understand that suffering happens in the world, while I'm not Christian myself I can see how one could make the case how/why god could/does allow it to happen, and still be a "loving" god. However, the case of Job is imo as different as night and day. Here Job didn't randomly have some event that caused him to suffer, god goaded the devil into causing Job's suffering. There's a vast difference between allowing suffering to happen and causing it, which to me just doesn't align with the way Christians attempt to portray the god of the bible. I can understand a god who allows suffering, I can never understand one who arbitrarily intervenes to cause it. |
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Zatoichi said: You didn't really add anything of value. You're just repeating yourself. Stephen Hawking is now almost completely paralyzed. Yet somehow he has the strength to continue with his research and come up with theories. When he was first diagnosed life wasn't over for him was it? another example is Hellen Keller. She was the first deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree. Instead of dwelling in depression or misery. These people looked on the bright side of life =D Will to live=/=Looking at the bright side of life. |
| LUL |
one-more-time said: Not to mention neither of them have any real easy ability to kill themselvesZatoichi said: You didn't really add anything of value. You're just repeating yourself. Stephen Hawking is now almost completely paralyzed. Yet somehow he has the strength to continue with his research and come up with theories. When he was first diagnosed life wasn't over for him was it? another example is Hellen Keller. She was the first deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree. Instead of dwelling in depression or misery. These people looked on the bright side of life =D Will to live=/=Looking at the bright side of life. |
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