| Last month I wrote a thread named Am I just a doomer, or if things such as schools, movies, holidays and fiction didn't exist, they wouldn't be invented nowadays?, where my main point is that such things were like "Mitochondria": You can easily argue that they make the system better and stronger (Entertainment is a Billion-dollar industry, schools and holidays might improve productivity, etc), but they are things that came from outside of it and which the system assimilated, not things the system did (Or perhaps could) create itself. Alan Moore used to complain that the comic industry was not "conductive to art", and when you study the history of it, you find out that he was right and that there seemed to be an herculean effort from the industry's part for it not to be so. Over the years, the industry developed cyclical crisis and became less relevant. Had manga never come to the west, people would likely point to orientalist theories as to why "the Japanese still read comics en masse, but westerners don't" such as "Oh well, the Japanese culture values reading a lot, and-". We all know this is all hogwash, because manga came to the west and it also makes massive success here because it has an objectively better system. You're wrong if you think that capitalism is about money and not about people: If the money could double or triple, but that meant that all the people currently receiving it got replaced, none of them would agree to that. No point in your company going up tenfold in value if you're not longer a CEO nor shareholder. No point in your industry having record growth if your company isn't included. So likewise, the success of manga in the west compared to downfall of comics caused very little in terms of reforms on the western comic industry, but it certainly made it entitled to demand changes to manga so "It could sell better here". If we've already established that "none of them would agree to that", then that begs the question: How does a capitalist justify it's place and existence compared to another potential capitalist that could profit way more than them? That's easy: Moralism, ideology, they create an entire lore to justify their position. A large part of the western entertainment industry isn't as much about "responding to people's tastes" as it is to "making them": Executives will choose what you're going to watch, like and care about. So when they Asians getting big into the western market, they don't see them as "competitors in offering the best service", but as "this foreign nation wants to control what people here, watch, like and care about! Only WE can do that!". The Kimetsu no Yaiba grossed a pornographic amount in Japan by being PG12, while in the west it was rated R. Objectively you could argue that the western industry could see this and start lobbying to make ratings more loose... but why would it do that? The current people in power in that industry only have to gain in the current system. This isn't an "USA vs Japan" thing, when the ESRB was formed, Nintendo vouched that video-games should continue only being "kids only", as it would give ti an advantage over it's rival, SEGA. Similar things happened during the creation of the Comics Code Authority. I'm against Dark Souls have "A mode selector with an easy mode", not because I'm against the game having a way to regulate it's difficulty, but because I feel that it already has a way of regulating it's difficulty which is superior to "mode selectors": It's granular, it's diegetic, it's seamless! Having that in mind, I once offered myself to give tips to people arguing that it should have an easy mode, I would ask them where they were having trouble so I could tell them the ways the game already has of making such parts easier... to my surprise, a large amount of them had never even touched Dark Souls, but were defending "mode selectors" "just because", because it was the only thing they ever knew. People were preferring a worse thing over a good thing because they only ever knew the bad one. Just like the guy who wants "Dark Souls Easy Mode" only wants Dark Souls in their "Completed Lists" for it's prestige rather than playing the game, "Western Adaptations of Anime/Video-games" and so-called "Western Anime" mostly just want to continue doing what Hollywood already does, but with the prestige of the anime/video-game it's adapting or basing itself on. It's like a cell that can't accept the fact that it did not create the mitochondria. The video-game industry used to be like the anime industry: Try 20 small/medium projects, one will get really big, but of those 20, 10 will likely become some form of cult/niche classic. Now it's either AAA or indie/shovelware, no middle-ground. Last year I wrote What causes anime "middle-of-the-roadness"?, and since them I've gone deeper in certain parts of it, especially the one pertaining to the fact that, unlike other mediums, anime doesn't have a "sex apartheid" (I used the term "Ghettofication of sex"), meaning that a lot of anime had eroticism mixed with it with zero problem, and there was even thee existence of "eroge" that was treated with the same respect as other VN's, instead of there being a clear line between "Thing with zero sex appeal made for toddlers" and "100% porn". But I've also been reading that apparently some people WANT that, like they want mode selectors for Dark Souls. How many of you ever read someone responding "Just go watch porn" whenever someone complains about censorship in something? I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, but I cannot understand why customers want it. What causes this? |
| Why do I have to quit the game to go watch porn? Everything should be included in one package from the get-go. That's why Capitalism is a fucking failure from the very start, run by crooks and lobotomized, ugly, thick bitches who get offended just by hearing the word "sex". |
| Of course most customers do not want "enshittification" (what an obnoxious term)...but some do. People want different things. To know the reasons why, you would need to assess each individual or group, on a case by case basis. thewiru said: I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, There is no such thing as "late stage" capitalism. It is a falsehood made up by delusional leftists, and has been thoroughly debunked. I could give you hundreds of links, but here's one. (But to be clear, the burden of proof is on those who claim it exists.) https://tomdehnel.com/crushing-the-myth-of-late-stage-capitalism/ Exhumatika said: Why do I have to quit the game to go watch porn? Everything should be included in one package from the get-go. There are numerous games to choose from. You can choose ones with the content you want. That's why Capitalism is a fucking failure from the very start, You claim it's a failure with no evidence, explanation or alternative. Capitalism is the best success story that has ever existed in the realm of economic systems, dramatically increasing the standard of living for billions of people and resulting in unprecedented freedom. run by crooks and lobotomized, ugly, thick bitches who get offended just by hearing the word "sex". You really do enjoy making things up. The vast majority of business owners do not fit your description. |
 |
| already know all that stuff crapitalism was shitty enough but then it decided to marry social engineering politics and here we are... the customers, as always, are true to the word goyim who will like whatever you tell them to like, especially if you pay some "experts" to parrot it idiots love to do what their "experts" tell them |
XMGA030Sep 19, 3:56 PM
SmugSatoko said: Great for ya, and it will be even better if you all just stay there with your "increased standard of living and unprecedented freedom" on your continent and don't stick your heads in everyone's business, thanks.Capitalism is the best success story that has ever existed in the realm of economic systems, dramatically increasing the standard of living for billions of people and resulting in unprecedented freedom. |
XMGA030 said: crapitalism was shitty enough Please show me an economic system that has achieved better real world results. Oh wait, you can't. Nothing else has come close to the innovation and prosperity that capitalism has brought about. Nothing else has come close to reducing so much poverty, increasing the standard of living for people around the world to levels previously inconceivable, and bringing a staggering variety of products and services to the market that never existed before, all while respecting individual liberty. You call it "shitty" even as you use the products it has created and enjoy the countless things it has done to improve your quality of life. Exhumatika said: Great for ya, and it will be even better if you all just stay there with your "increased standard of living and unprecedented freedom" on your continent and don't stick your heads in everyone's business, thanks. That's what I thought. You have no rebuttal, so you make it about me (and where I happen to live) instead of the universal truths I conveyed. |
|
| @SmugSatoko pointing out capitalism's shittiness doesn't mean one is suggesting there's a better system (yet), and you look like a child when you make such hasty assumptions as men very much smarter than you explained in books 100 years ago, all that innovation and prosperity is just a happy accident of capitalism give any of these money obsessed capitalists, like bezos and gates, enough money and they use it to do virus hoaxes and great resets against you your prosperity is the furthest thing from their minds but keep sucking their dicks while they literally conspire to kill you |
XMGA030Sep 19, 5:32 PM
| I made a forum where mostly everyone hated censorship. I conclude that the censorship globo police are essentially mostly bigwig corpo/gov rich interest groups. Your average weeb is not exactly happy about censorship/esg in media.  TLDR; the enshitification is not by a vast majority of consumers, but bad eggs in industry as well as big money influence/corruption on top. |
 |
XMGA030 said: pointing out capitalism's shittiness doesn't mean one is suggesting there's a better system (yet), You didn't point out what is "shitty" about it...and if there is nothing better, calling it that is dishonest at best. and you look like a child when you make such hasty assumptions I logically deduced that if you think it's bad, you must think something else is better. I requested evidence for this alternative, and explained why it isn't there. There's nothing childish about that. While it may be true that something else in the future could theoretically be better, I'm not interested in theory; I'm interested in reality. If your only better alternative to a thing doesn't even exist yet, calling that thing shitty is what is childish. as men very much smarter than you explained in books 100 years ago, Leftists are as far from smart as it gets. all that innovation and prosperity is just a happy accident of capitalism No, it is the result of respecting people's rights to liberty and property so they can start their own businesses and innovate. There is an enormous amount of data corroborating the correlation between economic freedom and the things I mentioned. Only an oblivious fool could make the baseless assertion that it was a happy accident. It doesn't help that you failed to explain how those things were not brought about via capitalism. It would be challenging, considering capitalism has succeeded wildly in every time and place it has been implemented. (It's not like a century ago is the sole example.) So many happy accidents! lmao China was dirt poor before embracing it in the 1970s; now, they're the world's second largest economy. (And that's with a suppressed version focused on manufacturing products exported to other nations, and their government heavily regulating many aspects of citizens' lives. Just imagine how much more prosperous they could be in a free market.) @Freshell is into graphs and the more technical side of things. Perhaps he could chime in with more detailed examples showing that when this phenomenon occurs so many times, it is not a succession of happy accidents. give any of these money obsessed capitalists, like bezos and gates, enough money and they use it to do virus hoaxes and great resets against you your prosperity is the furthest thing from their minds but keep sucking their dicks while they literally conspire to kill you And now you're delving into conspiracy theories instead of supporting (or even articulating) your position. P.S. I'm not (proverbially nor physically) sucking anyone's dicks, as you say; I am merely upholding the principles of liberty, as I always do. And to be clear, I advocate free markets, which billionaires tend to oppose. (For instance, they try to enact legislation that makes it more difficult to compete with them.) There is a difference between supporting capitalism and supporting whatever billionaires do. Lame strawman, bro. |
SmugSatokoSep 19, 7:38 PM
|
Reply to SmugSatoko
Of course most customers do not want "enshittification" (what an obnoxious term)...but some do. People want different things. To know the reasons why, you would need to assess each individual or group, on a case by case basis.
There is no such thing as "late stage" capitalism. It is a falsehood made up by delusional leftists, and has been thoroughly debunked. I could give you hundreds of links, but here's one. (But to be clear, the burden of proof is on those who claim it exists.)
https://tomdehnel.com/crushing-the-myth-of-late-stage-capitalism/
There are numerous games to choose from. You can choose ones with the content you want.
You claim it's a failure with no evidence, explanation or alternative. Capitalism is the best success story that has ever existed in the realm of economic systems, dramatically increasing the standard of living for billions of people and resulting in unprecedented freedom.
You really do enjoy making things up. The vast majority of business owners do not fit your description.
thewiru said:
I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works,
I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works,
There is no such thing as "late stage" capitalism. It is a falsehood made up by delusional leftists, and has been thoroughly debunked. I could give you hundreds of links, but here's one. (But to be clear, the burden of proof is on those who claim it exists.)
https://tomdehnel.com/crushing-the-myth-of-late-stage-capitalism/
Exhumatika said:
Why do I have to quit the game to go watch porn? Everything should be included in one package from the get-go.
Why do I have to quit the game to go watch porn? Everything should be included in one package from the get-go.
There are numerous games to choose from. You can choose ones with the content you want.
That's why Capitalism is a fucking failure from the very start,
You claim it's a failure with no evidence, explanation or alternative. Capitalism is the best success story that has ever existed in the realm of economic systems, dramatically increasing the standard of living for billions of people and resulting in unprecedented freedom.
run by crooks and lobotomized, ugly, thick bitches who get offended just by hearing the word "sex".
You really do enjoy making things up. The vast majority of business owners do not fit your description.
| @SmugSatoko I do not disagree that capitalism is a lot better than communism, but the reality we live in for the US is crony capitalism. Essentially this is what breeds selective regulation, and "global standards" as you may hear. I think the strongest reason why anime is so free and appealing was having less gov influence, but as it grows in popularity, the financial giants will seek to mold it as they see fit. |
|
rohan121 said: I do not disagree that capitalism is a lot better than communism, but the reality we live in for the US is crony capitalism. Essentially this is what breeds selective regulation, and "global standards" as you may hear. I think the strongest reason why anime is so free and appealing was having less gov influence, but as it grows in popularity, the financial giants will seek to mold it as they see fit. And that is precisely why a free(r) market is imperative. If mainstream payment processors and banks insist upon acting like tyrants, I anticipate decentralized currencies becoming more prevalent. |
|
| I cant exactly claim im a media producer but ive written a small comic and had people give me their opinions on it. The nature of my writing is edgy and somewhat unpalatable unless youre chronically online. I had a work friend read it over and he didn't know how to feel he got the joke but it was nowhere near to his taste. Basically what im getting at is us who are online alot in this more nerd space develop a relationship with storytelling and art that is different from people who don't. There are a sizeable amount of people who dont want anything controversial or transgressive, that's the taste they developed. It reminds me of a clip I saw of a streamer who streamed sports games playing DMC5 and he did not vibe with any of it. These sorts of people tend to spend large amounts on videogame DLC packs and streaming subscriptions and thus more is made for them. It begs the question on how to combat this but I also must not develop a sort of narcissism either, are their opinions invalid? It's a moral discussion about taste in a capitalist society, one thing I view capitalism is efficient at is luxury products. Basically we just gotta navigate it the best we can and take accountability for our own spending habits. |
  ♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
| Why not I say? They've been demanding everything else. |
 |
| Customers don't want a decline in quality. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
thewiru said: The industry developed a "cyclical crisis" and therefore it's not art, is not a good argument. You ever wonder why, when we look back on Western art, so much of it is religious? There is your cyclical "crisis" and yet it created some of the most beautiful art pieces in our civilization. Like even with anime, it's not cyclical that is the issue, it's the quality. I just think creators in this industry, would improve their quality if they relied on less genres/tropes of the past. Alan Moore used to complain that the comic industry was not "conductive to art", and when you study the history of it, you find out that he was right and that there seemed to be an herculean effort from the industry's part for it not to be so. Over the years, the industry developed cyclical crisis and became less relevant. Had manga never come to the west, people would likely point to orientalist theories as to why "the Japanese still read comics en masse, but westerners don't" such as "Oh well, the Japanese culture values reading a lot, and-". We all know this is all hogwash, because manga came to the west and it also makes massive success here because it has an objectively better system. Also that narrative isn't hogwash, at least for comics (I have no idea what Japanese book sales are like). Manga is doing well, in respect to the rest of the comic industry. It's still selling nowhere near what it does in Japan, and manga is of course killing English speaking comics. I mean maybe France is better, though then you could argue they have a better reading culture than the Anglophone world. thewiru said: ....No? They don't give a fuck. Netflix, is currying favour with anime studios, because it's cheap to get ahold of their products and therefore keep people glued to their streaming service. They don't care as long as they get a cut. Netflix was out promoting the living shit out of Squid Game, and it's not Western. A large part of the western entertainment industry isn't as much about "responding to people's tastes" as it is to "making them": Executives will choose what you're going to watch, like and care about. So when they Asians getting big into the western market, they don't see them as "competitors in offering the best service", but as "this foreign nation wants to control what people here, watch, like and care about! Only WE can do that!". Also again Wiru, you don't engage with Western media, you have no right to say "western entertainment isn't as much about responding to people's tastes" when you literally don't consume it. I do, and it responds about as well as anime does, in that the quality you get is variable. I don't know why you are insistent in making yourself look like a moron. What is your beef with literally multiple mediums, you don't engage with? It's like listening to a boomer whine about those Japanese cartoons. thewiru said: Literally what gain? They just don't want to be lynched by dumb American parents. The Kimetsu no Yaiba grossed a pornographic amount in Japan by being PG12, while in the west it was rated R. Objectively you could argue that the western industry could see this and start lobbying to make ratings more loose... but why would it do that? The current people in power in that industry only have to gain in the current system. thewiru said: Maybe they were put off, after hearing about the difficulty. to my surprise, a large amount of them had never even touched Dark Souls, but were defending "mode selectors" "just because", because it was the only thing they ever knew. thewiru said: Objectively, the Souls franchise have very beautiful looking/fun looking games. If someone is worried that they won't be able to enjoy the spectacle, because they aren't good at hard games, that is a fair concern. Now, I don't think the Souls games should dumb down their content, not everything needs to be for everyone, however, again it is a fair concern. As a guy who plays, hardcore strategy games, there are people who of course are interested however, are concerned with the learning curve, and may choose not to get invested, even if the topic interests them. I am not going to play Hollow Knight, even though the art looks beautiful because, I just have a big backlog, and there are few things mentioned that probably would frustrate me. You are taking this too seriously, most people do not give a shit about media "prestige" like you. They are just looking for a fun time.Just like the guy who wants "Dark Souls Easy Mode" only wants Dark Souls in their "Completed Lists" for it's prestige rather than playing the game, "Western Adaptations of Anime/Video-games" and so-called "Western Anime" mostly just want to continue doing what Hollywood already does, but with the prestige of the anime/video-game it's adapting or basing itself on. It's like a cell that can't accept the fact that it did not create the mitochondria. thewiru said: Well that is objectively wrong, there are tons of AA studios, making mid budget games. If anything people are just wrongfully conflating many AA games, as Indies when they aren't. Now it's either AAA or indie/shovelware, no middle-ground. thewiru said: WTF are you talking about lol. You realize that anime is not the only medium that has soft core sex appeal and sensuality? anime doesn't have a "sex apartheid" (I used the term "Ghettofication of sex"), meaning that a lot of anime had eroticism mixed with it with zero problem, and there was even thee existence of "eroge" that was treated with the same respect as other VN's, instead of there being a clear line between "Thing with zero sex appeal made for toddlers" and "100% porn". thewiru said: Because they found the sexual content jarring. Like you are talking about works blending sensuality naturally in the narrative. Honestly, anime rarely does that lol. It's all about gags, world breaking shit and it's rarely used for relationship development, which I can actually find in my porn games, which says a lot about the quality of fanservice in this medium. Like is that phrase always fair? No, it can be fair, and you are just using it out of context, cause obviously you didn't like this one dude, who didn't like fanservice you liked. Just enjoy that shit, and stop getting mad, that people like me don't like it. I am not even a prude, I just think the quality sucks...I want better for NSFW content in this medium. I could easily ask why you want the "eshittification" of NSFW content. But I've also been reading that apparently some people WANT that, like they want mode selectors for Dark Souls. How many of you ever read someone responding "Just go watch porn" whenever someone complains about censorship in something? thewiru said: Your body paragraphs were all over the place, and it felt like it had little connection to the topic. I thought we were going to talk about like service industries lol. Not another thread, about you getting upset about critiques at anime, or getting mad at Western entertainment again, for some random reason. If you wanted to rant about Netflix as a service, there is something actually substantively there, to talk about. It's usually just a lack of competition, or industry decline that is the problem. Main reason why companies cut services, once they get enough market share. Main reason we need regulated capitalism, where the government comes in and breaks up companies that have achieved too much of a significant market share. Capitalism only works with sustained competition, and there will be a point where someone outcompetes all others. I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, but I cannot understand why customers want it. What causes this? |
BilboBaggins365Sep 20, 10:47 AM
| Yes. You yourself are prime evidence of that. People keep telling you to read a book, watch a movie, or immerse yourself in your local culture in some way. You refuse to do so every time and continue making garbage posts that are really a convoluted way of justifying your love of jack off material. |
Reply to Exhumatika
Why do I have to quit the game to go watch porn? Everything should be included in one package from the get-go.
That's why Capitalism is a fucking failure from the very start, run by crooks and lobotomized, ugly, thick bitches who get offended just by hearing the word "sex".
That's why Capitalism is a fucking failure from the very start, run by crooks and lobotomized, ugly, thick bitches who get offended just by hearing the word "sex".
| @Exhumatika Tell us more about how capitalism is responsible for your failure to pick one of the many porn games out there. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
Alan Moore used to complain that the comic industry was not "conductive to art", and when you study the history of it, you find out that he was right and that there seemed to be an herculean effort from the industry's part for it not to be so. Over the years, the industry developed cyclical crisis and became less relevant. Had manga never come to the west, people would likely point to orientalist theories as to why "the Japanese still read comics en masse, but westerners don't" such as "Oh well, the Japanese culture values reading a lot, and-". We all know this is all hogwash, because manga came to the west and it also makes massive success here because it has an objectively better system.
The industry developed a "cyclical crisis" and therefore it's not art, is not a good argument. You ever wonder why, when we look back on Western art, so much of it is religious? There is your cyclical "crisis" and yet it created some of the most beautiful art pieces in our civilization. Like even with anime, it's not cyclical that is the issue, it's the quality. I just think creators in this industry, would improve their quality if they relied on less genres/tropes of the past. Alan Moore used to complain that the comic industry was not "conductive to art", and when you study the history of it, you find out that he was right and that there seemed to be an herculean effort from the industry's part for it not to be so. Over the years, the industry developed cyclical crisis and became less relevant. Had manga never come to the west, people would likely point to orientalist theories as to why "the Japanese still read comics en masse, but westerners don't" such as "Oh well, the Japanese culture values reading a lot, and-". We all know this is all hogwash, because manga came to the west and it also makes massive success here because it has an objectively better system.
Also that narrative isn't hogwash, at least for comics (I have no idea what Japanese book sales are like). Manga is doing well, in respect to the rest of the comic industry. It's still selling nowhere near what it does in Japan, and manga is of course killing English speaking comics. I mean maybe France is better, though then you could argue they have a better reading culture than the Anglophone world.
thewiru said:
A large part of the western entertainment industry isn't as much about "responding to people's tastes" as it is to "making them": Executives will choose what you're going to watch, like and care about. So when they Asians getting big into the western market, they don't see them as "competitors in offering the best service", but as "this foreign nation wants to control what people here, watch, like and care about! Only WE can do that!".
....No? They don't give a fuck. Netflix, is currying favour with anime studios, because it's cheap to get ahold of their products and therefore keep people glued to their streaming service. They don't care as long as they get a cut. Netflix was out promoting the living shit out of Squid Game, and it's not Western. A large part of the western entertainment industry isn't as much about "responding to people's tastes" as it is to "making them": Executives will choose what you're going to watch, like and care about. So when they Asians getting big into the western market, they don't see them as "competitors in offering the best service", but as "this foreign nation wants to control what people here, watch, like and care about! Only WE can do that!".
Also again Wiru, you don't engage with Western media, you have no right to say "western entertainment isn't as much about responding to people's tastes" when you literally don't consume it. I do, and it responds about as well as anime does, in that the quality you get is variable. I don't know why you are insistent in making yourself look like a moron. What is your beef with literally multiple mediums, you don't engage with? It's like listening to a boomer whine about those Japanese cartoons.
thewiru said:
The Kimetsu no Yaiba grossed a pornographic amount in Japan by being PG12, while in the west it was rated R. Objectively you could argue that the western industry could see this and start lobbying to make ratings more loose... but why would it do that? The current people in power in that industry only have to gain in the current system.
Literally what gain? They just don't want to be lynched by dumb American parents. The Kimetsu no Yaiba grossed a pornographic amount in Japan by being PG12, while in the west it was rated R. Objectively you could argue that the western industry could see this and start lobbying to make ratings more loose... but why would it do that? The current people in power in that industry only have to gain in the current system.
thewiru said:
to my surprise, a large amount of them had never even touched Dark Souls, but were defending "mode selectors" "just because", because it was the only thing they ever knew.
Maybe they were put off, after hearing about the difficulty. to my surprise, a large amount of them had never even touched Dark Souls, but were defending "mode selectors" "just because", because it was the only thing they ever knew.
thewiru said:
Just like the guy who wants "Dark Souls Easy Mode" only wants Dark Souls in their "Completed Lists" for it's prestige rather than playing the game, "Western Adaptations of Anime/Video-games" and so-called "Western Anime" mostly just want to continue doing what Hollywood already does, but with the prestige of the anime/video-game it's adapting or basing itself on. It's like a cell that can't accept the fact that it did not create the mitochondria.
Objectively, the Souls franchise have very beautiful looking/fun looking games. If someone is worried that they won't be able to enjoy the spectacle, because they aren't good at hard games, that is a fair concern. Now, I don't think the Souls games should dumb down their content, not everything needs to be for everyone, however, again it is a fair concern. As a guy who plays, hardcore strategy games, there are people who of course are interested however, are concerned with the learning curve, and may choose not to get invested, even if the topic interests them. I am not going to play Hollow Knight, even though the art looks beautiful because, I just have a big backlog, and there are few things mentioned that probably would frustrate me. You are taking this too seriously, most people do not give a shit about media "prestige" like you. They are just looking for a fun time.Just like the guy who wants "Dark Souls Easy Mode" only wants Dark Souls in their "Completed Lists" for it's prestige rather than playing the game, "Western Adaptations of Anime/Video-games" and so-called "Western Anime" mostly just want to continue doing what Hollywood already does, but with the prestige of the anime/video-game it's adapting or basing itself on. It's like a cell that can't accept the fact that it did not create the mitochondria.
thewiru said:
Now it's either AAA or indie/shovelware, no middle-ground.
Well that is objectively wrong, there are tons of AA studios, making mid budget games. If anything people are just wrongfully conflating many AA games, as Indies when they aren't. Now it's either AAA or indie/shovelware, no middle-ground.
thewiru said:
anime doesn't have a "sex apartheid" (I used the term "Ghettofication of sex"), meaning that a lot of anime had eroticism mixed with it with zero problem, and there was even thee existence of "eroge" that was treated with the same respect as other VN's, instead of there being a clear line between "Thing with zero sex appeal made for toddlers" and "100% porn".
WTF are you talking about lol. You realize that anime is not the only medium that has soft core sex appeal and sensuality? anime doesn't have a "sex apartheid" (I used the term "Ghettofication of sex"), meaning that a lot of anime had eroticism mixed with it with zero problem, and there was even thee existence of "eroge" that was treated with the same respect as other VN's, instead of there being a clear line between "Thing with zero sex appeal made for toddlers" and "100% porn".
thewiru said:
But I've also been reading that apparently some people WANT that, like they want mode selectors for Dark Souls. How many of you ever read someone responding "Just go watch porn" whenever someone complains about censorship in something?
Because they found the sexual content jarring. Like you are talking about works blending sensuality naturally in the narrative. Honestly, anime rarely does that lol. It's all about gags, world breaking shit and it's rarely used for relationship development, which I can actually find in my porn games, which says a lot about the quality of fanservice in this medium. Like is that phrase always fair? No, it can be fair, and you are just using it out of context, cause obviously you didn't like this one dude, who didn't like fanservice you liked. Just enjoy that shit, and stop getting mad, that people like me don't like it. I am not even a prude, I just think the quality sucks...I want better for NSFW content in this medium. I could easily ask why you want the "eshittification" of NSFW content. But I've also been reading that apparently some people WANT that, like they want mode selectors for Dark Souls. How many of you ever read someone responding "Just go watch porn" whenever someone complains about censorship in something?
thewiru said:
I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, but I cannot understand why customers want it.
What causes this?
Your body paragraphs were all over the place, and it felt like it had little connection to the topic. I thought we were going to talk about like service industries lol. Not another thread, about you getting upset about critiques at anime, or getting mad at Western entertainment again, for some random reason. If you wanted to rant about Netflix as a service, there is something actually substantively there, to talk about. It's usually just a lack of competition, or industry decline that is the problem. Main reason why companies cut services, once they get enough market share. Main reason we need regulated capitalism, where the government comes in and breaks up companies that have achieved too much of a significant market share. Capitalism only works with sustained competition, and there will be a point where someone outcompetes all others. I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, but I cannot understand why customers want it.
What causes this?
BilboBaggins365 said: The industry developed a "cyclical crisis" and therefore it's not art, is not a good argument. Indeed, that's not a good argument. Maybe that why I never did it to begin with. BilboBaggins365 said: Literally what gain? They just don't want to be lynched by dumb American parents. And you think there was no pressure from Japanese parents back in the day? BilboBaggins365 said: WTF are you talking about lol. You realize that anime is not the only medium that has soft core sex appeal and sensuality? What others are you referring to? |
Reply to thewiru
BilboBaggins365 said:
The industry developed a "cyclical crisis" and therefore it's not art, is not a good argument.
The industry developed a "cyclical crisis" and therefore it's not art, is not a good argument.
Indeed, that's not a good argument.
Maybe that why I never did it to begin with.
BilboBaggins365 said:
Literally what gain? They just don't want to be lynched by dumb American parents.
Literally what gain? They just don't want to be lynched by dumb American parents.
And you think there was no pressure from Japanese parents back in the day?
BilboBaggins365 said:
WTF are you talking about lol. You realize that anime is not the only medium that has soft core sex appeal and sensuality?
WTF are you talking about lol. You realize that anime is not the only medium that has soft core sex appeal and sensuality?
What others are you referring to?
| You made no effort to critique the point, if you just cite it then I assume support. thewiru said: Yeah, and works like Iron Blood Orphans got in trouble, that is why ratings exist and are also culturally sensitive. Even in the case of the IBO controversy, it was the fact the hero killed someone in cold blood, rather than the explicit violence existing at all. Parents in the USA are more sensitive to content like that, appearing in "kids media" which is how animation is viewed. Therefore, it's better to be upfront and say yeah not okay. It's just covering your ass. And you think there was no pressure from Japanese parents back in the day? thewiru said: The whole romantasy craze is literally driving the book industry right now. Sarah J Maas' whole thing is basically writing female power fantasies with a bit of "spice" which is basically female fanservice smut. I can go play a mainstream RPG like Baldur's Gate 3 and Cyberpunk 2077, and find plenty of sexual content intermixed with the rest of the story..The Western music industry, would get idols lynched by their fans, in Japan if they showed off their body, or made as many sexually explicit references as our stars do. What others are you referring to? How many times do I have to repeat it to you guys lol. JAPAN IS NOT SEXUALLY LIBERTINE IN THE SLIGHTEST. We are more comfortable throwing random sex shit into random things than they are, you are so drunk on otaku sexuality stuff, you don't just look at the normal inclusion of sex in media, and we are vastly more adept at that than anime. |
BilboBaggins365Sep 20, 11:32 AM
Reply to BilboBaggins365
You made no effort to critique the point, if you just cite it then I assume support.
How many times do I have to repeat it to you guys lol. JAPAN IS NOT SEXUALLY LIBERTINE IN THE SLIGHTEST. We are more comfortable throwing random sex shit into random things than they are, you are so drunk on otaku sexuality stuff, you don't just look at the normal inclusion of sex in media, and we are vastly more adept at that than anime.
thewiru said:
And you think there was no pressure from Japanese parents back in the day?
Yeah, and works like Iron Blood Orphans got in trouble, that is why ratings exist and are also culturally sensitive. Even in the case of the IBO controversy, it was the fact the hero killed someone in cold blood, rather than the explicit violence existing at all. Parents in the USA are more sensitive to content like that, appearing in "kids media" which is how animation is viewed. Therefore, it's better to be upfront and say yeah not okay. It's just covering your ass. And you think there was no pressure from Japanese parents back in the day?
thewiru said:
What others are you referring to?
The whole romantasy craze is literally driving the book industry right now. Sarah J Maas' whole thing is basically writing female power fantasies with a bit of "spice" which is basically female fanservice smut. I can go play a mainstream RPG like Baldur's Gate 3 and Cyberpunk 2077, and find plenty of sexual content intermixed with the rest of the story..The Western music industry, would get idols lynched by their fans, in Japan if they showed off their body, or made as many sexually explicit references as our stars do. What others are you referring to?
How many times do I have to repeat it to you guys lol. JAPAN IS NOT SEXUALLY LIBERTINE IN THE SLIGHTEST. We are more comfortable throwing random sex shit into random things than they are, you are so drunk on otaku sexuality stuff, you don't just look at the normal inclusion of sex in media, and we are vastly more adept at that than anime.
BilboBaggins365 said: You made no effort to critique the point, if you just cite it then I assume support. Something can both be art and have a dysfunctional industry. The issues with the comics issue were both issues making hard for artists to make art for the longest time and a bunch of dysfunctional systems (Regarding distribution and etc) that makes it so not many people buy them nowadays. BilboBaggins365 said: Yeah, and works like Iron Blood Orphans got in trouble, that is why ratings exist and are also culturally sensitive. Even in the case of the IBO controversy, it was the fact the hero killed someone in cold blood, rather than the explicit violence existing at all. Parents in the USA are more sensitive to content like that, appearing in "kids media" which is how animation is viewed. Therefore, it's better to be upfront and say yeah not okay. It's just covering your ass. You say terms like "culturally sensitive" and "how animation is viewed" like those are inherent, intrinsic and immutable characteristics of those places, and not that those were choices, constructions, and we could, today, choose otherwise. BilboBaggins365 said: JAPAN IS NOT SEXUALLY LIBERTINE IN THE SLIGHTEST. Japan might not be. Otaku in the other hand... BilboBaggins365 said: We are more comfortable throwing random sex shit into random things than they are, you are so drunk on otaku sexuality stuff, you don't just look at the normal inclusion of sex in media, and we are vastly more adept at that than anime. Then why the fuck do westoids have issues with it and not the western versions of that? |
Reply to thewiru
BilboBaggins365 said:
You made no effort to critique the point, if you just cite it then I assume support.
You made no effort to critique the point, if you just cite it then I assume support.
Something can both be art and have a dysfunctional industry.
The issues with the comics issue were both issues making hard for artists to make art for the longest time and a bunch of dysfunctional systems (Regarding distribution and etc) that makes it so not many people buy them nowadays.
BilboBaggins365 said:
Yeah, and works like Iron Blood Orphans got in trouble, that is why ratings exist and are also culturally sensitive. Even in the case of the IBO controversy, it was the fact the hero killed someone in cold blood, rather than the explicit violence existing at all. Parents in the USA are more sensitive to content like that, appearing in "kids media" which is how animation is viewed. Therefore, it's better to be upfront and say yeah not okay. It's just covering your ass.
Yeah, and works like Iron Blood Orphans got in trouble, that is why ratings exist and are also culturally sensitive. Even in the case of the IBO controversy, it was the fact the hero killed someone in cold blood, rather than the explicit violence existing at all. Parents in the USA are more sensitive to content like that, appearing in "kids media" which is how animation is viewed. Therefore, it's better to be upfront and say yeah not okay. It's just covering your ass.
You say terms like "culturally sensitive" and "how animation is viewed" like those are inherent, intrinsic and immutable characteristics of those places, and not that those were choices, constructions, and we could, today, choose otherwise.
BilboBaggins365 said:
JAPAN IS NOT SEXUALLY LIBERTINE IN THE SLIGHTEST.
JAPAN IS NOT SEXUALLY LIBERTINE IN THE SLIGHTEST.
Japan might not be.
Otaku in the other hand...
BilboBaggins365 said:
We are more comfortable throwing random sex shit into random things than they are, you are so drunk on otaku sexuality stuff, you don't just look at the normal inclusion of sex in media, and we are vastly more adept at that than anime.
We are more comfortable throwing random sex shit into random things than they are, you are so drunk on otaku sexuality stuff, you don't just look at the normal inclusion of sex in media, and we are vastly more adept at that than anime.
Then why the fuck do westoids have issues with it and not the western versions of that?
thewiru said: Reading in general is down, comics are expensive (paper is expensive), and most of the structural issues with comics go back to regulation, rather than creative choices. They didn't choose to be in a creative cycle. Something can both be art and have a dysfunctional industry. The issues with the comics issue were both issues making hard for artists to make art for the longest time and a bunch of dysfunctional systems (Regarding distribution and etc) that makes it so not many people buy them nowadays. thewiru said: I didn't actually, I just said it as an observation of reality. Change will be coming as my generations get older, and animation is more normalized however, at the moment this is the current situation. We weren't talking about how people will perceive it in 20-30 years. Change is slow, at least relatively, our culture changes a lot more than it has in the past. You say terms like "culturally sensitive" and "how animation is viewed" like those are inherent, intrinsic and immutable characteristics of those places, and not that those were choices, constructions, and we could, today, choose otherwise. Otaku....the people that whine about their idols being in relationships? Lol. They want trad infantile housewives, that wait on them. They want innocence instead of seductiveness, or they conflate it. So yeah, no, my statement stands. And again, ignoring the constant focus on those infantile housewives, yeah our media is still more sexually explicit. thewiru said: The main issue literally is that the character are underage dude, do I have to spell this out? Baldur's Gate III and Cyberpunk 2077 has more sexual content than in the vast majority of JRPGs you will ever encounter. You have to go to eroge to find something similar. That said, yeah people are uncomfortable with certain depictions of minors....that's literally all people whine about in this community, when they portray Western media spaces as somehow sexually regressive. Then why the fuck do westoids have issues with it and not the western versions of that? These issues, are not limited to anime, unlike what the paranoid morons, in this community depict. Shows like Euphoria (the western live action show) have gotten just as much critique....that is it. Like do I think shows like Food Wars are causing people to prey upon minors? No, though it's problematic media for a reason. I can watch a show like that and just be conscious of that, and understand another viewpoint. Forget, where you can go with this stuff. It's not wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it. That doesn't mean they are prudes, which is something I have to seemingly bash into some of your otaku brains. Most of you guys, just only care about your perspective, you can't fathom why people are uncomfortable with that content. Nor empathetic. From parents, who now have teenage children, abuse victims (who have very different mentalities to it some okay some not), or those that just simply don't want to be blasted an underage butt, in their supposedly mainstream action show. Concerns like this, whether you agree or not, are not down to just "puritanism" lol. |
BilboBaggins365Sep 20, 1:52 PM
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
Something can both be art and have a dysfunctional industry.
The issues with the comics issue were both issues making hard for artists to make art for the longest time and a bunch of dysfunctional systems (Regarding distribution and etc) that makes it so not many people buy them nowadays.
Reading in general is down, comics are expensive (paper is expensive), and most of the structural issues with comics go back to regulation, rather than creative choices. They didn't choose to be in a creative cycle. Something can both be art and have a dysfunctional industry.
The issues with the comics issue were both issues making hard for artists to make art for the longest time and a bunch of dysfunctional systems (Regarding distribution and etc) that makes it so not many people buy them nowadays.
thewiru said:
You say terms like "culturally sensitive" and "how animation is viewed" like those are inherent, intrinsic and immutable characteristics of those places, and not that those were choices, constructions, and we could, today, choose otherwise.
I didn't actually, I just said it as an observation of reality. Change will be coming as my generations get older, and animation is more normalized however, at the moment this is the current situation. We weren't talking about how people will perceive it in 20-30 years. Change is slow, at least relatively, our culture changes a lot more than it has in the past. You say terms like "culturally sensitive" and "how animation is viewed" like those are inherent, intrinsic and immutable characteristics of those places, and not that those were choices, constructions, and we could, today, choose otherwise.
Otaku....the people that whine about their idols being in relationships? Lol. They want trad infantile housewives, that wait on them. They want innocence instead of seductiveness, or they conflate it. So yeah, no, my statement stands. And again, ignoring the constant focus on those infantile housewives, yeah our media is still more sexually explicit.
thewiru said:
Then why the fuck do westoids have issues with it and not the western versions of that?
The main issue literally is that the character are underage dude, do I have to spell this out? Baldur's Gate III and Cyberpunk 2077 has more sexual content than in the vast majority of JRPGs you will ever encounter. You have to go to eroge to find something similar. That said, yeah people are uncomfortable with certain depictions of minors....that's literally all people whine about in this community, when they portray Western media spaces as somehow sexually regressive. Then why the fuck do westoids have issues with it and not the western versions of that?
These issues, are not limited to anime, unlike what the paranoid morons, in this community depict. Shows like Euphoria (the western live action show) have gotten just as much critique....that is it.
Like do I think shows like Food Wars are causing people to prey upon minors? No, though it's problematic media for a reason. I can watch a show like that and just be conscious of that, and understand another viewpoint. Forget, where you can go with this stuff. It's not wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it. That doesn't mean they are prudes, which is something I have to seemingly bash into some of your otaku brains. Most of you guys, just only care about your perspective, you can't fathom why people are uncomfortable with that content. Nor empathetic. From parents, who now have teenage children, abuse victims (who have very different mentalities to it some okay some not), or those that just simply don't want to be blasted an underage butt, in their supposedly mainstream action show. Concerns like this, whether you agree or not, are not down to just "puritanism" lol.
BilboBaggins365 said: It's not wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it. It IS wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it. You don't need "20-30 years" to change that, you can just decide to not think like that today. |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
Alan Moore used to complain that the comic industry was not "conductive to art", and when you study the history of it, you find out that he was right and that there seemed to be an herculean effort from the industry's part for it not to be so. Over the years, the industry developed cyclical crisis and became less relevant. Had manga never come to the west, people would likely point to orientalist theories as to why "the Japanese still read comics en masse, but westerners don't" such as "Oh well, the Japanese culture values reading a lot, and-". We all know this is all hogwash, because manga came to the west and it also makes massive success here because it has an objectively better system.
The industry developed a "cyclical crisis" and therefore it's not art, is not a good argument. You ever wonder why, when we look back on Western art, so much of it is religious? There is your cyclical "crisis" and yet it created some of the most beautiful art pieces in our civilization. Like even with anime, it's not cyclical that is the issue, it's the quality. I just think creators in this industry, would improve their quality if they relied on less genres/tropes of the past. Alan Moore used to complain that the comic industry was not "conductive to art", and when you study the history of it, you find out that he was right and that there seemed to be an herculean effort from the industry's part for it not to be so. Over the years, the industry developed cyclical crisis and became less relevant. Had manga never come to the west, people would likely point to orientalist theories as to why "the Japanese still read comics en masse, but westerners don't" such as "Oh well, the Japanese culture values reading a lot, and-". We all know this is all hogwash, because manga came to the west and it also makes massive success here because it has an objectively better system.
Also that narrative isn't hogwash, at least for comics (I have no idea what Japanese book sales are like). Manga is doing well, in respect to the rest of the comic industry. It's still selling nowhere near what it does in Japan, and manga is of course killing English speaking comics. I mean maybe France is better, though then you could argue they have a better reading culture than the Anglophone world.
thewiru said:
A large part of the western entertainment industry isn't as much about "responding to people's tastes" as it is to "making them": Executives will choose what you're going to watch, like and care about. So when they Asians getting big into the western market, they don't see them as "competitors in offering the best service", but as "this foreign nation wants to control what people here, watch, like and care about! Only WE can do that!".
....No? They don't give a fuck. Netflix, is currying favour with anime studios, because it's cheap to get ahold of their products and therefore keep people glued to their streaming service. They don't care as long as they get a cut. Netflix was out promoting the living shit out of Squid Game, and it's not Western. A large part of the western entertainment industry isn't as much about "responding to people's tastes" as it is to "making them": Executives will choose what you're going to watch, like and care about. So when they Asians getting big into the western market, they don't see them as "competitors in offering the best service", but as "this foreign nation wants to control what people here, watch, like and care about! Only WE can do that!".
Also again Wiru, you don't engage with Western media, you have no right to say "western entertainment isn't as much about responding to people's tastes" when you literally don't consume it. I do, and it responds about as well as anime does, in that the quality you get is variable. I don't know why you are insistent in making yourself look like a moron. What is your beef with literally multiple mediums, you don't engage with? It's like listening to a boomer whine about those Japanese cartoons.
thewiru said:
The Kimetsu no Yaiba grossed a pornographic amount in Japan by being PG12, while in the west it was rated R. Objectively you could argue that the western industry could see this and start lobbying to make ratings more loose... but why would it do that? The current people in power in that industry only have to gain in the current system.
Literally what gain? They just don't want to be lynched by dumb American parents. The Kimetsu no Yaiba grossed a pornographic amount in Japan by being PG12, while in the west it was rated R. Objectively you could argue that the western industry could see this and start lobbying to make ratings more loose... but why would it do that? The current people in power in that industry only have to gain in the current system.
thewiru said:
to my surprise, a large amount of them had never even touched Dark Souls, but were defending "mode selectors" "just because", because it was the only thing they ever knew.
Maybe they were put off, after hearing about the difficulty. to my surprise, a large amount of them had never even touched Dark Souls, but were defending "mode selectors" "just because", because it was the only thing they ever knew.
thewiru said:
Just like the guy who wants "Dark Souls Easy Mode" only wants Dark Souls in their "Completed Lists" for it's prestige rather than playing the game, "Western Adaptations of Anime/Video-games" and so-called "Western Anime" mostly just want to continue doing what Hollywood already does, but with the prestige of the anime/video-game it's adapting or basing itself on. It's like a cell that can't accept the fact that it did not create the mitochondria.
Objectively, the Souls franchise have very beautiful looking/fun looking games. If someone is worried that they won't be able to enjoy the spectacle, because they aren't good at hard games, that is a fair concern. Now, I don't think the Souls games should dumb down their content, not everything needs to be for everyone, however, again it is a fair concern. As a guy who plays, hardcore strategy games, there are people who of course are interested however, are concerned with the learning curve, and may choose not to get invested, even if the topic interests them. I am not going to play Hollow Knight, even though the art looks beautiful because, I just have a big backlog, and there are few things mentioned that probably would frustrate me. You are taking this too seriously, most people do not give a shit about media "prestige" like you. They are just looking for a fun time.Just like the guy who wants "Dark Souls Easy Mode" only wants Dark Souls in their "Completed Lists" for it's prestige rather than playing the game, "Western Adaptations of Anime/Video-games" and so-called "Western Anime" mostly just want to continue doing what Hollywood already does, but with the prestige of the anime/video-game it's adapting or basing itself on. It's like a cell that can't accept the fact that it did not create the mitochondria.
thewiru said:
Now it's either AAA or indie/shovelware, no middle-ground.
Well that is objectively wrong, there are tons of AA studios, making mid budget games. If anything people are just wrongfully conflating many AA games, as Indies when they aren't. Now it's either AAA or indie/shovelware, no middle-ground.
thewiru said:
anime doesn't have a "sex apartheid" (I used the term "Ghettofication of sex"), meaning that a lot of anime had eroticism mixed with it with zero problem, and there was even thee existence of "eroge" that was treated with the same respect as other VN's, instead of there being a clear line between "Thing with zero sex appeal made for toddlers" and "100% porn".
WTF are you talking about lol. You realize that anime is not the only medium that has soft core sex appeal and sensuality? anime doesn't have a "sex apartheid" (I used the term "Ghettofication of sex"), meaning that a lot of anime had eroticism mixed with it with zero problem, and there was even thee existence of "eroge" that was treated with the same respect as other VN's, instead of there being a clear line between "Thing with zero sex appeal made for toddlers" and "100% porn".
thewiru said:
But I've also been reading that apparently some people WANT that, like they want mode selectors for Dark Souls. How many of you ever read someone responding "Just go watch porn" whenever someone complains about censorship in something?
Because they found the sexual content jarring. Like you are talking about works blending sensuality naturally in the narrative. Honestly, anime rarely does that lol. It's all about gags, world breaking shit and it's rarely used for relationship development, which I can actually find in my porn games, which says a lot about the quality of fanservice in this medium. Like is that phrase always fair? No, it can be fair, and you are just using it out of context, cause obviously you didn't like this one dude, who didn't like fanservice you liked. Just enjoy that shit, and stop getting mad, that people like me don't like it. I am not even a prude, I just think the quality sucks...I want better for NSFW content in this medium. I could easily ask why you want the "eshittification" of NSFW content. But I've also been reading that apparently some people WANT that, like they want mode selectors for Dark Souls. How many of you ever read someone responding "Just go watch porn" whenever someone complains about censorship in something?
thewiru said:
I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, but I cannot understand why customers want it.
What causes this?
Your body paragraphs were all over the place, and it felt like it had little connection to the topic. I thought we were going to talk about like service industries lol. Not another thread, about you getting upset about critiques at anime, or getting mad at Western entertainment again, for some random reason. If you wanted to rant about Netflix as a service, there is something actually substantively there, to talk about. It's usually just a lack of competition, or industry decline that is the problem. Main reason why companies cut services, once they get enough market share. Main reason we need regulated capitalism, where the government comes in and breaks up companies that have achieved too much of a significant market share. Capitalism only works with sustained competition, and there will be a point where someone outcompetes all others. I can understand companies wanting enshittification, it's part of how late-stage capitalism works, but I cannot understand why customers want it.
What causes this?
BilboBaggins365 said: I am not going to play Hollow Knight, even though the art looks beautiful because, I just have a big backlog, and there are few things mentioned that probably would frustrate me. I've played Hollow Knight. What do you expect would frustrate you? BilboBaggins365 said: Well that is objectively wrong, there are tons of AA studios, making mid budget games. If anything people are just wrongfully conflating many AA games, as Indies when they aren't. I haven't heard about that. What are the most popular AA studios of recent times? |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to thewiru
BilboBaggins365 said:
It's not wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it.
It's not wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it.
It IS wrong for people to feel uncomfortable or want to avoid it.
You don't need "20-30 years" to change that, you can just decide to not think like that today.
| @thewiru I can make fair arguments for both sides, whether you care to hear the logic of them....anyway...I am not here to get into an ethical discussion about this, with you, something I have both defended and critiqued in the past. IDC anymore, honestly. Though...I am getting tired of the constant misrepresentation. You constantly do this, like many other members on this site, due to your lack of knowledge and obvious bias. Lucifrost said: I mean right now I am playing Rogue Trader. Owlcat is a pretty good example of AA studio, Their budgets are in the 5-15 million range, which is around what stops classifying as an indie, however it isn't a AAA game. Their recent upcoming Expanse game though looks morel like a AAA production, so will see how they develop. I haven't heard about that. What are the most popular AA studios of recent times? Edit: If you want more examples, most PDX games, by their own account are not AAA productions, due to the dev team size being small CK3 was developed by like 20 people, and they hold some of the most popular strategy game IPs on the market. Since Bannerlord got an update recently, Taleworlds is another company that is sizeable however, they don't meet AAA sizes either. Lots of studios, that make relatively known games, however, aren't at Rockstar levels, fall into. Lucifrost said: It's just what my friend has said, about the game's navigation and saving. I don't know exactly the details. I've played Hollow Knight. What do you expect would frustrate you? |
BilboBaggins365Sep 20, 2:24 PM
| OT: Your post doesn't really explain why profit maximizing US capitalists couldn't just copy the Japanese model and reap similar returns. You do gesture at the idea that capitalists don't care if the industry at large does better, just that they get more money. But that doesn't answer the question. Couldn't US businesses copy the business model and reap similar returns? Are we really suggesting that capitalists do not like money? Let's go over some possible explanations: (1) The US industry is at a local optimum where for some reason or another, trying to move away from that optimum to copying Japan actually would not work for them. (1a) The business model that companies like Marvel and DC have found works for them is using flag ship titles like Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc. to sell comics rather than create a plethora of new ones. Perhaps this actually is what maximizes their income and they are behaving rationally. They are at their local optimum. In fact, many new comics are tried, but they often fail to gain traction. Meanwhile, the Japanese industry has found their own local optimum where they try out a lot of small creators and the big titles make up for the loses. Both should not move away from their optimal strategies. We can't just appeal to the idea that it wouldn't be possible for large businesses to successfully do the Japanese strategy. Shounen Jump exists. (1b) Why might the US industry be unable to get to the Japanese local optimum which is even better? Perhaps it's a coincidence of history. People are already going to Japanese publishers for this kind of thing like Shounen Jump and they have difficulty displacing any of them when they have that loyalty. (1c) Another possible explanation is that Japanese readers essentially "subsidize" manga existing. That is, reading comics is so culturally common there that small comics can spring up only appealing to Japanese audiences, meanwhile audiences from other nations are only reading and watching the most popular output in comparison. Most non-Japanese people are reading one of the most popular manga, Kimetsu no Yaiba, but they are not reading Witch Watch, Psych House, Ruri Dragon, Two On Ice, etc. (2) Japan perhaps simply has better creators. (2a) You don't have to be essentialist or even say it's because of cultural differences. Economies of agglomeration are sufficient. Half of venture capitalist funding goes to one region in the US: Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay area. Why is that region so successful? No doubt in part because the US generally has low tech regulation, but California is not a low regulation state compared to the rest of the country. It's really an accident of history that has the following equilibrium: skilled tech workers go to that region because that's where the good paying tech jobs are, and tech companies go there because that's where the skilled tech workers are. Keeping that in mind, there has perhaps become a Japanese artistic economy of agglomeration: many people seek to become mangaka because there's a lot of manga jobs available, and many manga businesses exist because there are a lot of skilled aspiring mangaka. (2b) Or you can hold it's because the US is too woke or something. But then it's weird that US film does so well. :p SmugSatoko said: @Freshell is into graphs and the more technical side of things. Perhaps he could chime in with more detailed examples showing that when this phenomenon occurs so many times, it is not a succession of happy accidents. Well, since you asked!  The Fraser Institute economic freedom index quantifies economic freedom based on five facets whose contributions are all calculated by a formula. The facets are size of government, legal system and property rights, freedom to trade internationally, regulation and sound money (that is they avoid things like hyper inflation.) The upward bend of the graph is also suggestive that moving to the top 25% economically freest countries has a bigger impact than merely getting out of the bottom 25%. There's of course also natural experiments like the performance of South Korea versus North Korea after the latter became socialist. Historically the nations that first industrialized were capitalist nations like England and the US. Today the richest nations all have some kind of mixed economy that can overall be categorized as capitalist. Growth miracle stories tend to involve economic liberation: China under Deng, the Asian tiger economies, India after the license raj was ended. Lastly it's pretty interesting that the richest nations regionally tend to either be resource rich or very economically free. E.g. Switzerland in Europe, Chile in Latin America, or Singapore in Asia. Honestly, this is such a consistent pattern that the debate shouldn't be whether we should have capitalism but what kind of capitalist system we want. Left wing people should stick to upholding the Nordic model at most (which I also disagree with, but at least the Nordic countries provide an example of rich nations with a good amount of left wing policy.) |
FreshellSep 20, 2:28 PM
Reply to BilboBaggins365
@thewiru I can make fair arguments for both sides, whether you care to hear the logic of them....anyway...I am not here to get into an ethical discussion about this, with you, something I have both defended and critiqued in the past. IDC anymore, honestly. Though...I am getting tired of the constant misrepresentation. You constantly do this, like many other members on this site, due to your lack of knowledge and obvious bias.
Edit: If you want more examples, most PDX games, by their own account are not AAA productions, due to the dev team size being small CK3 was developed by like 20 people, and they hold some of the most popular strategy game IPs on the market. Since Bannerlord got an update recently, Taleworlds is another company that is sizeable however, they don't meet AAA sizes either. Lots of studios, that make relatively known games, however, aren't at Rockstar levels, fall into.
Lucifrost said:
I haven't heard about that. What are the most popular AA studios of recent times?
I mean right now I am playing Rogue Trader. Owlcat is a pretty good example of AA studio, Their budgets are in the 5-15 million range, which is around what stops classifying as an indie, however it isn't a AAA game. Their recent upcoming Expanse game though looks morel like a AAA production, so will see how they develop. I haven't heard about that. What are the most popular AA studios of recent times?
Edit: If you want more examples, most PDX games, by their own account are not AAA productions, due to the dev team size being small CK3 was developed by like 20 people, and they hold some of the most popular strategy game IPs on the market. Since Bannerlord got an update recently, Taleworlds is another company that is sizeable however, they don't meet AAA sizes either. Lots of studios, that make relatively known games, however, aren't at Rockstar levels, fall into.
Lucifrost said:
I've played Hollow Knight. What do you expect would frustrate you?
It's just what my friend has said, about the game's navigation and saving. I don't know exactly the details. I've played Hollow Knight. What do you expect would frustrate you?
BilboBaggins365 said: I mean right now I am playing Rogue Trader. Owlcat is a pretty good example of AA studio, Their budgets are in the 5-15 million range, which is around what stops classifying as an indie, however it isn't a AAA game. Their recent upcoming Expanse game though looks morel like a AAA production, so will see how they develop. I can't say things are looking good for the AA industry if those are their biggest successes. I haven't heard of any of those games, yet I hear about several indies and AAA I have no intention of playing. BilboBaggins365 said: It's just what my friend has said, about how the game forces you to navigate and the save system. What did your friend say about navigation and the save system? |
| その目だれの目？ |
SmugSatoko said: The only rebuttal truth about your "supreme" capitalism (especially the Western one) is that it was only prospering while parasitizing other nations, taking resources for dirt cheap, and creating chaos around the globe so that the money flows to the US (this shit dosen't work anymore).That's what I thought. You have no rebuttal, so you make it about me (and where I happen to live) instead of the universal truths I conveyed. If your Capitalism is so supreme, then stop printing money out of thin air and stop doing dollar emissions to barely sustain your economy (which only further increases trillions of your country's debt). …and if you are all so magnificent there, then do a local American industrialization boom and stop relying on cheap Chinese labor (although Chinese are not fools anymore, and their demands have increased significantly in recent years; that explains the difficult US/China relation). Another thing, stop putting tariffs on other countries, because outside of the US you all there look like a bunch of gopniks for a quick money grab. If you want to learn about the real economy and how things actually are, read books by actual economists. There, I've said what I want it to say. You're not interesting to me; you're just another typical Western dogmatist who hasn't even lived anywhere outside of the US. |
| @XMGA030 Well, well...you got reeeeeal quiet after I tore apart your lies. You ran away like a coward because I illustrated how your position is indefensible. Remember, kids, never trust anyone with a furry avatar. Freshell said: Well, since you asked! The Fraser Institute economic freedom index quantifies economic freedom based on five facets whose contributions are all calculated by a formula. The facets are size of government, legal system and property rights, freedom to trade internationally, regulation and sound money (that is they avoid things like hyper inflation.) The upward bend of the graph is also suggestive that moving to the top 25% economically freest countries has a bigger impact than merely getting out of the bottom 25%. There's of course also natural experiments like the performance of South Korea versus North Korea after the latter became socialist. Historically the nations that first industrialized were capitalist nations like England and the US. Today the richest nations all have some kind of mixed economy that can overall be categorized as capitalist. Growth miracle stories tend to involve economic liberation: China under Deng, the Asian tiger economies, India after the license raj was ended. Lastly it's pretty interesting that the richest nations regionally tend to either be resource rich or very economically free. E.g. Switzerland in Europe, Chile in Latin America, or Singapore in Asia. Honestly, this is such a consistent pattern that the debate shouldn't be whether we should have capitalism but what kind of capitalist system we want. Left wing people should stick to upholding the Nordic model at most (which I also disagree with, but at least the Nordic countries provide an example of rich nations with a good amount of left wing policy.) Thank you for bothering to write this...but I'm afraid it will not cure the delusional psychosis anti-capitalists are infected with. If you have any responses to what I addressed below, feel free to expand upon it. Exhumatika said: The only rebuttal truth about your "supreme" capitalism (especially the Western one) is that it was only prospering while parasitizing other nations, taking resources for dirt cheap, and creating chaos around the globe so that the money flows to the US (this shit dosen't work anymore). So your only rebuttal is a vicious lie...and again, you have not suggested an alternative system. Just two posts above yours, there is data about how capitalism and economic freedom have resulted in higher prosperity around the world. The US remains one of the most prosperous nations. If your Capitalism is so supreme, then stop printing money out of thin air Money is not printed "out of thin air" to begin with. And there are numerous good reasons to print money, if you would care to learn about economics. and stop doing dollar emissions Dollar emissions is not an established economic term, so perhaps you meant it as a synonym for printing money. to barely sustain your economy "Barely sustain"? The United States is the world's largest economy. (which only further increases trillions of your country's debt). Printing money does not increase the national debt at all, let alone by trillions. …and if you are all so magnificent there, then do a local American industrialization boom and stop relying on cheap Chinese labor (although Chinese are not fools anymore, and their demands have increased significantly in recent years; that explains the difficult US/China relation). Another thing, stop putting tariffs on other countries, because outside of the US you all there look like a bunch of gopniks for a quick money grab. One of the widely advertised purposes of tariffs is to encourage domestic production. Other countries impose tariffs on the US (and many other countries) too, you know. I would not characterize it as a quick money grab; quite the opposite. Importers within the country are the ones who have to directly pay the tariff. In the short term, they are losing money. It's just that it can have an indirect result of affecting international trade policies. But it's a gamble because it doesn't always work out the way some would have hoped. At any rate, all this is not in my hands, so you instructing me to do things has no effect. If you want to learn about the real economy and how things actually are, read books by actual economists. Right back at you. I recommend the venerable Thomas Sowell, along with Milton Friedman. The vast majority of economists are pro-capitalist, by the way. There, I've said what I want it to say. You're not interesting to me; you're just another typical Western dogmatist who hasn't even lived anywhere outside of the US. This isn't about me. It's about the truth. |
SmugSatokoSep 20, 4:21 PM
|
| @SmugSatoko, Dude, just fucking stop with your pro-capitalism crap and ultra-liberal financier authors (they're not economists). Even your old-timer Daddy Trump figured out (too late, but finally figured out) that this entire system is total shit and going down the hill fast; that's why he was placed as an anti-crisis manager to break this entire system apart and take as much as he can and run back to his American island there (and I'm not sure if he's even succeeded, judging by how quickly wrong politics dropped dead from current events and just by general American history). Europe is already done, lol, (Daddy Trump exceeded my expectations). |
Exhumatika said: Dude, just fucking stop with your pro-capitalism crap No. :) Good job being unable to refute anything I said. You're clearly not competent enough to notice when you've been proved wrong. and ultra-liberal financier authors (they're not economists). They are economists...renowned ones at that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman Even your old-timer Daddy Trump figured out (too late, but finally figured out) that this entire system is total shit and going down the hill fast; that's why he was placed as an anti-crisis manager to break this entire system apart and take as much as he can and run back to his American island there (and I'm not sure if he's even succeeded, judging by how quickly wrong politics dropped dead from current events and just by general American history). Europe is already done, lol, (Daddy Trump exceeded my expectations). More conspiracy theory drivel. |
|
SmugSatoko said: It's up to you, and you'll definitely never find interesting stuff in any Wikipedia.More conspiracy theory drivel. |
never trust anyone with a furry avatar. For your information that's my pic... SmugSatoko said: Well, well...you got reeeeeal quiet after I tore apart your lies You did? Cool story. I actually didn't even read your shit, there were better things to do than argue against stale cold war propaganda from a dumb kid. The version of capitalism we live under isn't the homely vision of adam smith's time. Maybe when you're homeless after the next engineered economic collapse or your job gets outsourced you can trade your milton friedman collectors editions for a shot of fentanyl....provided the pages aren't all stuck together, if you know what I mean. |
Reply to Lucifrost
BilboBaggins365 said:
I mean right now I am playing Rogue Trader. Owlcat is a pretty good example of AA studio, Their budgets are in the 5-15 million range, which is around what stops classifying as an indie, however it isn't a AAA game. Their recent upcoming Expanse game though looks morel like a AAA production, so will see how they develop.
I mean right now I am playing Rogue Trader. Owlcat is a pretty good example of AA studio, Their budgets are in the 5-15 million range, which is around what stops classifying as an indie, however it isn't a AAA game. Their recent upcoming Expanse game though looks morel like a AAA production, so will see how they develop.
I can't say things are looking good for the AA industry if those are their biggest successes. I haven't heard of any of those games, yet I hear about several indies and AAA I have no intention of playing.
BilboBaggins365 said:
It's just what my friend has said, about how the game forces you to navigate and the save system.
It's just what my friend has said, about how the game forces you to navigate and the save system.
What did your friend say about navigation and the save system?
Lucifrost said: So? Like I honestly don't get this attitude, from a lot of you guys on here. Why do you need to hear, or understand something to be valid? Should you know everything? Maybe you should branch out more, instead of saying I don't know about this therefore it's not true lol. You guys realize, statements like this just make you look willfully ignorant right? I haven't heard of any of those games, Rogue Trader sold like 1 million copies in one year, PDX has Stellaris in the top 100 steam best sellers, and games like Crusader Kings 3 have sold 4 million copies, Bannerlord five million. That's life half of what famous JRPGs like Persona 5 have sold. They are doing well for their size, or do you expect AA studios to sell like AAA studios? Also going off 40k, Space Marine 2 got like half of the development budget Doom did, and it sold 7 million last year. AA is doing fine, depending on what genre you are invested in. I am giving you what I know, from games I like to play....IDC if you don't know them. The strategy market, and CRPG market is quite healthy, healthier frankly than it was like over a decade ago. Those genres are being supported by AA games. |
BilboBaggins365Sep 20, 4:54 PM
XMGA030 said: You did? Cool story. I actually didn't even read your shit, Go back and read, then you'll see how I (and others) proved you wrong. It's not an absurd sequence of happy accidents when every time a nation has economic freedom, it results in prosperity, you fool. there were better things to do than argue against stale cold war propaganda I have done nothing but tell the timeless truth. from a dumb kid. I'm nearly as old as you. The version of capitalism we live under isn't the homely vision of adam smith's time. Maybe when you're homeless after the next engineered economic collapse or your job gets outsourced you can trade your milton friedman collectors editions for a shot of fentanyl....provided the pages aren't all stuck together, if you know what I mean. If you read what I said, you would know I advocate free markets, not the current version of capitalism. |
SmugSatokoSep 20, 5:06 PM
|
SmugSatoko said: Go back and read, then you'll see how I (and others) proved you wrong. yeah no, I've read the apologetics of crapitalism a million times before I advocate free markets, not the current version of capitalism. muh free markets is half the problem, in practice it only means freedom for big businessmen to trample over entire nations, send all their factories overseas and kill the middle class of small to medium business owners it is the current version of capitalism this is one of the reasons it's futile to argue with anyone championing crapitalism, you're 200 years behind the times and don't even realize it |
XMGA030 said: yeah no, I've read the apologetics of crapitalism a million times before You claimed it was a happy accident that prosperity happened at the same time as capitalism...and I (and others) showed how you are wrong, because it has happened countless times now all around the world, all because of economic freedom. It's not a matter of opinion. muh free markets is half the problem, in practice it only means freedom for big businessmen to trample over entire nations, send all their factories overseas and kill the middle class of small to medium business owners it is the current version of capitalism No, the current version of capitalism has a ridiculous amount of excess regulations that prevent people from easily starting businesses and competing with the most successful ones. In some cases the rich get government subsidies and are bailed out when they fail. They are in bed with the government. It is far from a free market. this is one of the reasons it's futile to argue with anyone championing crapitalism, you're 200 years behind the times and don't even realize it You can't even be bothered to read what I said, let alone refute it. Furthermore, you can't seem to describe a better system. |
SmugSatokoSep 20, 5:32 PM
|
XMGA030 said: You don't even need to prove anything to him. He lives in the fairy tale.This is one of the reasons it's futile to argue with anyone championing crapitalism, you're 200 years behind the times and don't even realize it. Even in the US, the population's income is significantly less than their expenses. Just this reason alone explains why this system is completely broken as hell. |
Exhumatika said: You don't even need to prove anything to him. Even in the US, the population's income is significantly less than their expenses. Just this reason alone explains why this system is completely broken as hell. More shameless lies with no connection to reality. The average US household earns over $100K per year and spends markedly less than that. |
|
Reply to SmugSatoko
Exhumatika said:
You don't even need to prove anything to him. Even in the US, the population's income is significantly less than their expenses. Just this reason alone explains why this system is completely broken as hell.
You don't even need to prove anything to him. Even in the US, the population's income is significantly less than their expenses. Just this reason alone explains why this system is completely broken as hell.
More shameless lies with no connection to reality. The average US household earns over $100K per year and spends markedly less than that.
SmugSatoko said: Don't make me laugh, the average US household...The average US household earns over $100K per year and spends markedly less than that. |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
Lucifrost said:
I haven't heard of any of those games,
So? Like I honestly don't get this attitude, from a lot of you guys on here. Why do you need to hear, or understand something to be valid? Should you know everything? Maybe you should branch out more, instead of saying I don't know about this therefore it's not true lol. You guys realize, statements like this just make you look willfully ignorant right? I haven't heard of any of those games,
Rogue Trader sold like 1 million copies in one year, PDX has Stellaris in the top 100 steam best sellers, and games like Crusader Kings 3 have sold 4 million copies, Bannerlord five million. That's life half of what famous JRPGs like Persona 5 have sold. They are doing well for their size, or do you expect AA studios to sell like AAA studios? Also going off 40k, Space Marine 2 got like half of the development budget Doom did, and it sold 7 million last year. AA is doing fine, depending on what genre you are invested in. I am giving you what I know, from games I like to play....IDC if you don't know them. The strategy market, and CRPG market is quite healthy, healthier frankly than it was like over a decade ago. Those genres are being supported by AA games.
BilboBaggins365 said: Should you know everything? Maybe you should branch out more, instead of saying I don't know about this therefore it's not true lol. I didn't say it's not "true," whatever that means. I said it's not popular. One can reasonably say that the more popular something is, the more likely one will hear about it. BilboBaggins365 said: Rogue Trader sold like 1 million copies in one year, PDX has Stellaris in the top 100 steam best sellers, and games like Crusader Kings 3 have sold 4 million copies, Bannerlord five million. That's life half of what famous JRPGs like Persona 5 have sold. They are doing well for their size, or do you expect AA studios to sell like AAA studios? Also going off 40k, Space Marine 2 got like half of the development budget Doom did, and it sold 7 million last year. AA is doing fine, depending on what genre you are invested in. I am giving you what I know, from games I like to play....IDC if you don't know them. The strategy market, and CRPG market is quite healthy, healthier frankly than it was like over a decade ago. Those genres are being supported by AA games. Then you should have mentioned those games when I asked you before. I've heard of Crusader Kings; I'm told it targets a narrow audience. |
| その目だれの目？ |
SmugSatoko said: Thank you for bothering to write this...but I'm afraid it will not cure the delusional psychosis anti-capitalists are infected with. If you have any responses to what I addressed below, feel free to expand upon it I'm afraid you're much more patient on this topic than me at the moment! What we see is that the pro capitalist side tends to bring in data and evidence while the anti capitalist side only brings up abstract theories and excuses. "I've heard this propaganda before" - does not proceed to rebut said 'propaganda' "Read books by 'real' economists" - does not proceed to quote some or name any "Something something imperialism/exploitation" "Something something fiat currency" Good work though. :p |
SmugSatoko said: No, the current version of capitalism has a ridiculous amount of excess regulations that prevent people from easily starting businesses and competing with the most successful ones. In some cases the rich get government subsidies and are bailed out when they fail. They are in bed with the government. It is far from a free market. I know. I was mocking it, in case that wasn't clear. What I don't know is what your position is really supposed to be. You recognize the severe problems of the current situation while you lecture us on the goodness of capitalism. So is this just one of those "take the bad with the good and shut up" things? If that's the case, well, what the fuck ever. I'm not interested. Furthermore, you can't seem to describe a better system. "One needs to provide a better system or he's not allowed to point out the flaws in this one." There's your whole stupid argument in essence. |
Reply to Lucifrost
BilboBaggins365 said:
Should you know everything? Maybe you should branch out more, instead of saying I don't know about this therefore it's not true lol.
Should you know everything? Maybe you should branch out more, instead of saying I don't know about this therefore it's not true lol.
I didn't say it's not "true," whatever that means. I said it's not popular. One can reasonably say that the more popular something is, the more likely one will hear about it.
BilboBaggins365 said:
Rogue Trader sold like 1 million copies in one year, PDX has Stellaris in the top 100 steam best sellers, and games like Crusader Kings 3 have sold 4 million copies, Bannerlord five million. That's life half of what famous JRPGs like Persona 5 have sold. They are doing well for their size, or do you expect AA studios to sell like AAA studios? Also going off 40k, Space Marine 2 got like half of the development budget Doom did, and it sold 7 million last year. AA is doing fine, depending on what genre you are invested in. I am giving you what I know, from games I like to play....IDC if you don't know them. The strategy market, and CRPG market is quite healthy, healthier frankly than it was like over a decade ago. Those genres are being supported by AA games.
Rogue Trader sold like 1 million copies in one year, PDX has Stellaris in the top 100 steam best sellers, and games like Crusader Kings 3 have sold 4 million copies, Bannerlord five million. That's life half of what famous JRPGs like Persona 5 have sold. They are doing well for their size, or do you expect AA studios to sell like AAA studios? Also going off 40k, Space Marine 2 got like half of the development budget Doom did, and it sold 7 million last year. AA is doing fine, depending on what genre you are invested in. I am giving you what I know, from games I like to play....IDC if you don't know them. The strategy market, and CRPG market is quite healthy, healthier frankly than it was like over a decade ago. Those genres are being supported by AA games.
Then you should have mentioned those games when I asked you before. I've heard of Crusader Kings; I'm told it targets a narrow audience.
Lucifrost said: Your argument, was that because you hadn't heard of it, AA games aren't doing well. There isn't much room for interpretation there? I didn't say it's not "true," whatever that means. I said it's not popular. One can reasonably say that the more popular something is, the more likely one will hear about it. |
Reply to Freshell
OT:
Your post doesn't really explain why profit maximizing US capitalists couldn't just copy the Japanese model and reap similar returns. You do gesture at the idea that capitalists don't care if the industry at large does better, just that they get more money. But that doesn't answer the question. Couldn't US businesses copy the business model and reap similar returns? Are we really suggesting that capitalists do not like money?
Let's go over some possible explanations:
(1) The US industry is at a local optimum where for some reason or another, trying to move away from that optimum to copying Japan actually would not work for them.
(1a) The business model that companies like Marvel and DC have found works for them is using flag ship titles like Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc. to sell comics rather than create a plethora of new ones. Perhaps this actually is what maximizes their income and they are behaving rationally. They are at their local optimum. In fact, many new comics are tried, but they often fail to gain traction. Meanwhile, the Japanese industry has found their own local optimum where they try out a lot of small creators and the big titles make up for the loses. Both should not move away from their optimal strategies. We can't just appeal to the idea that it wouldn't be possible for large businesses to successfully do the Japanese strategy. Shounen Jump exists.
(1b) Why might the US industry be unable to get to the Japanese local optimum which is even better? Perhaps it's a coincidence of history. People are already going to Japanese publishers for this kind of thing like Shounen Jump and they have difficulty displacing any of them when they have that loyalty.
(1c) Another possible explanation is that Japanese readers essentially "subsidize" manga existing. That is, reading comics is so culturally common there that small comics can spring up only appealing to Japanese audiences, meanwhile audiences from other nations are only reading and watching the most popular output in comparison. Most non-Japanese people are reading one of the most popular manga, Kimetsu no Yaiba, but they are not reading Witch Watch, Psych House, Ruri Dragon, Two On Ice, etc.
(2) Japan perhaps simply has better creators.
(2a) You don't have to be essentialist or even say it's because of cultural differences. Economies of agglomeration are sufficient. Half of venture capitalist funding goes to one region in the US: Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay area. Why is that region so successful? No doubt in part because the US generally has low tech regulation, but California is not a low regulation state compared to the rest of the country. It's really an accident of history that has the following equilibrium: skilled tech workers go to that region because that's where the good paying tech jobs are, and tech companies go there because that's where the skilled tech workers are. Keeping that in mind, there has perhaps become a Japanese artistic economy of agglomeration: many people seek to become mangaka because there's a lot of manga jobs available, and many manga businesses exist because there are a lot of skilled aspiring mangaka.
(2b) Or you can hold it's because the US is too woke or something. But then it's weird that US film does so well. :p
Well, since you asked!
The Fraser Institute economic freedom index quantifies economic freedom based on five facets whose contributions are all calculated by a formula. The facets are size of government, legal system and property rights, freedom to trade internationally, regulation and sound money (that is they avoid things like hyper inflation.) The upward bend of the graph is also suggestive that moving to the top 25% economically freest countries has a bigger impact than merely getting out of the bottom 25%.
There's of course also natural experiments like the performance of South Korea versus North Korea after the latter became socialist. Historically the nations that first industrialized were capitalist nations like England and the US. Today the richest nations all have some kind of mixed economy that can overall be categorized as capitalist. Growth miracle stories tend to involve economic liberation: China under Deng, the Asian tiger economies, India after the license raj was ended.
Lastly it's pretty interesting that the richest nations regionally tend to either be resource rich or very economically free. E.g. Switzerland in Europe, Chile in Latin America, or Singapore in Asia.
Honestly, this is such a consistent pattern that the debate shouldn't be whether we should have capitalism but what kind of capitalist system we want. Left wing people should stick to upholding the Nordic model at most (which I also disagree with, but at least the Nordic countries provide an example of rich nations with a good amount of left wing policy.)
Your post doesn't really explain why profit maximizing US capitalists couldn't just copy the Japanese model and reap similar returns. You do gesture at the idea that capitalists don't care if the industry at large does better, just that they get more money. But that doesn't answer the question. Couldn't US businesses copy the business model and reap similar returns? Are we really suggesting that capitalists do not like money?
Let's go over some possible explanations:
(1) The US industry is at a local optimum where for some reason or another, trying to move away from that optimum to copying Japan actually would not work for them.
(1a) The business model that companies like Marvel and DC have found works for them is using flag ship titles like Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc. to sell comics rather than create a plethora of new ones. Perhaps this actually is what maximizes their income and they are behaving rationally. They are at their local optimum. In fact, many new comics are tried, but they often fail to gain traction. Meanwhile, the Japanese industry has found their own local optimum where they try out a lot of small creators and the big titles make up for the loses. Both should not move away from their optimal strategies. We can't just appeal to the idea that it wouldn't be possible for large businesses to successfully do the Japanese strategy. Shounen Jump exists.
(1b) Why might the US industry be unable to get to the Japanese local optimum which is even better? Perhaps it's a coincidence of history. People are already going to Japanese publishers for this kind of thing like Shounen Jump and they have difficulty displacing any of them when they have that loyalty.
(1c) Another possible explanation is that Japanese readers essentially "subsidize" manga existing. That is, reading comics is so culturally common there that small comics can spring up only appealing to Japanese audiences, meanwhile audiences from other nations are only reading and watching the most popular output in comparison. Most non-Japanese people are reading one of the most popular manga, Kimetsu no Yaiba, but they are not reading Witch Watch, Psych House, Ruri Dragon, Two On Ice, etc.
(2) Japan perhaps simply has better creators.
(2a) You don't have to be essentialist or even say it's because of cultural differences. Economies of agglomeration are sufficient. Half of venture capitalist funding goes to one region in the US: Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay area. Why is that region so successful? No doubt in part because the US generally has low tech regulation, but California is not a low regulation state compared to the rest of the country. It's really an accident of history that has the following equilibrium: skilled tech workers go to that region because that's where the good paying tech jobs are, and tech companies go there because that's where the skilled tech workers are. Keeping that in mind, there has perhaps become a Japanese artistic economy of agglomeration: many people seek to become mangaka because there's a lot of manga jobs available, and many manga businesses exist because there are a lot of skilled aspiring mangaka.
(2b) Or you can hold it's because the US is too woke or something. But then it's weird that US film does so well. :p
SmugSatoko said:
@Freshell is into graphs and the more technical side of things. Perhaps he could chime in with more detailed examples showing that when this phenomenon occurs so many times, it is not a succession of happy accidents.
@Freshell is into graphs and the more technical side of things. Perhaps he could chime in with more detailed examples showing that when this phenomenon occurs so many times, it is not a succession of happy accidents.
Well, since you asked!
The Fraser Institute economic freedom index quantifies economic freedom based on five facets whose contributions are all calculated by a formula. The facets are size of government, legal system and property rights, freedom to trade internationally, regulation and sound money (that is they avoid things like hyper inflation.) The upward bend of the graph is also suggestive that moving to the top 25% economically freest countries has a bigger impact than merely getting out of the bottom 25%.
There's of course also natural experiments like the performance of South Korea versus North Korea after the latter became socialist. Historically the nations that first industrialized were capitalist nations like England and the US. Today the richest nations all have some kind of mixed economy that can overall be categorized as capitalist. Growth miracle stories tend to involve economic liberation: China under Deng, the Asian tiger economies, India after the license raj was ended.
Lastly it's pretty interesting that the richest nations regionally tend to either be resource rich or very economically free. E.g. Switzerland in Europe, Chile in Latin America, or Singapore in Asia.
Honestly, this is such a consistent pattern that the debate shouldn't be whether we should have capitalism but what kind of capitalist system we want. Left wing people should stick to upholding the Nordic model at most (which I also disagree with, but at least the Nordic countries provide an example of rich nations with a good amount of left wing policy.)
| @Freshell What the actual fuck, this is one of the best comments I've read on MAL. |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
Lucifrost said:
I didn't say it's not "true," whatever that means. I said it's not popular. One can reasonably say that the more popular something is, the more likely one will hear about it.
Your argument, was that because you hadn't heard of it, AA games aren't doing well. There isn't much room for interpretation there? I didn't say it's not "true," whatever that means. I said it's not popular. One can reasonably say that the more popular something is, the more likely one will hear about it.
| @BilboBaggins365 I meant they're not doing well relative to indies and AAA. |
| その目だれの目？ |
SmugSatoko said: If you read what I said, you would know I advocate free markets, not the current version of capitalism. By no means I want to participate this conversation, but this statement sounds like you stand for some ideology disconnected from its practical implementation. That's problematic. @Freshell @SmugSatoko The core of your typical pro-capitalism argument is "look, capitalism worked". At the same time, the core of your anti-*ism argument is "look, *ism never worked and led to some stagnation or - worse - tyranny". If I wanted to argue, I could simply say we lack relevant data for the comparison, because alternative models have never been implemented properly (esp in the modern word), always experienced external pressure and isolation etc. Also, what worked nicely 50 years ago may not work now, and the *flaws* of our capitalism implementation (such as *billions* of people globally still not being able to fulfill even their basic needs like safety, freedom, housing, education and healthcare, ecology etc) may suggest we are doing something wrong. The world didn't face dramatic challenges for maybe 70-80 years, yet we still have half of its population living in slums. Now even mighty Americans cry more and more they are living in slums - funny, right? Just some food for your thoughts. |
LoveYourSmileSep 20, 9:19 PM
| Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
thewiru said: What the actual fuck, this is one of the best comments I've read on MAL. That's high praise! Thanks! LoveYourSmile said: By no means I want to participate this conversation, but this statement sounds like you stand for some ideology disconnected from its practical implementation. That's problematic. You seem to have pinged me for something I did not say! I don't consider myself particularly ideological on this matter. Rather I have a pragmatic mindset. If someone wishes to change my mind on things, just show me the evidence communism, communism with Chinese characteristics, socialism, the Nordic model, or some unique idea hitherto not conceived (these can be quite fun, and I often enjoy considering unique ideas even if I am not convinced of them) etc. work in terms of giving a nation and its people prosperity, and I will change my mind and champion the virtues of it. My beliefs have in fact shifted over time, but people confuse their particular arguments not being persuasive to me with a certain closed mindedness. But focusing on myself as an individual and what my biases *might* be is unproductive, and to my mind, comes off as bad manners. Don't we all have biases? LoveYourSmile said: If I wanted to argue, I could simply say we lack relevant data for the comparison, because alternative models have never been implemented properly (esp in the modern word), always experienced external pressure and isolation etc. Also, what worked nicely 50 years ago may not work now, and the *flaws* of our capitalism implementation (such as *billions* of people globally still not being able to fulfill even their basic needs like safety, freedom, housing, education and healthcare, ecology etc) may suggest we are doing something wrong. I am quite open to the possibility that there is a superior system that we are not yet aware of, and it may be that in the future, there will be evidence that there is such a system. Perhaps that system would not be well captured by anything I suggest or anything any a currently existing nation is doing. It seems only rational to advocate for said system once we have a demonstration that it is there. But before that? Sounds foolish. Instead of speculating on what might work in the future, why not investigate what seems to work now? And so I say we should think globally and see what it is that countries that have gotten out of poverty do, what it is that countries that pull ahead do. Likely no country has the idealized policy framework on every issue. You talk about wanting nations to not be in poverty. If so, what is the more responsible thing? To speculate on what might work or to learn from what has worked? The pursuit of one may come at cost of another, and rather than solve the issues which you wish to solve, you made them worse. That does not justify the status quo, but you should change it with due caution. LoveYourSmile said: Your blind faith and stubborn resistance looks a bit strange to me. Quite the accusation! Where do I believe in something on blind faith? I would be genuinely curious, and I would appreciate you if you would enlighten me on this matter rather than keeping it vague. LoveYourSmile said: if everything was that great as you picture it to yourself, people wouldn't complain. I mean, by vigilantly defending status quo, you don't help much. In any situation, people will find room for improvement. We know there are very rich people who become depressed and suicidal. Pointing out that there are negatives to a system is not sufficient. You should demonstrate that better is possible. Otherwise the crusade to topple existing systems could very well lead to making things worse. LoveYourSmile said: Examples of successful developed countries don't endure critique imo, because that prosperity is built on top of exploitation of the poor - yes, thanks to global chain, we moved that horror far away from our borders, but go cut Switzerland, Norway or mighty America off cheap 3rd world labor and resources, and you will see where it will go, haha. Here we have a disagreement. It is not third world labor that makes nations rich. It is good ideas that get propagated. From ideas on how to efficiently transport a good from A to B to semiconductor chips. I would be happy that less of the world was starving so that more of the world could be in schools and aspire to create the next great idea that pushes humanity forward. |
FreshellSep 20, 9:44 PM
LoveYourSmile said: By no means I want to participate this conversation, but this statement sounds like you stand for some ideology disconnected from its practical implementation. That's problematic. Seems like a rather uncharitable way to read his post. Especially given that it is almost always the anti-capitalist side that will not bring anything concrete and mostly abstract theorizations without empirical backing or analytical soundness, as is shown in this thread by multiple users with the last being you. What seems more likely is that he believes status quo is not the optimal way in which capitalist economic system can manifest, but that it is still much better than what is being proposed. Most people who agree with most policies should nevertheless not believe it it to be the optimal state of affairs and that we can't improve on it, that is very unlikely to be the case. LoveYourSmile said: Also, what worked nicely 50 years ago may not work now, and the *flaws* of our capitalism implementation (such as *billions* of people globally still not being able to fulfill even their basic needs like safety, freedom, housing, education and healthcare, ecology etc) may suggest we are doing something wrong. This is one of the textbook mistakes I see the anti side making. They see some problem going on in the world and immediately make the hasty inference of it being on account of the economic system that exists in x,y,z countries (the countries they dislike of course), whereas the truth is that suffering is the default human condition. In the absence of an economic system, such as pre-historic populations, life is mired with immense suffering. In the presence of an economic system, this can be alleviated, to a higher or lower extent depending on the efficacy of the system. It just happens to be that certain systems alleviate it to a lot better degree.  Regardless of the threshold for poverty one chooses, fewer people are living in it than in the past.  In no other context would you consider showing something bad going on in the world somewhere to be an undermining of an idea. "If this foreign aid program is so good, then why are many people dying of malaria still?", "If this criminal rehabilitation program is so good, why are there still recidivism?", "If this green energy deal is so good, how come we are not net zero yet?" It's just the most rudimentary boring analysis devoid of any sense. |
AuronSep 20, 10:02 PM
 |
More topics from this board
» Do you like stickers?Zakatsuki_ - Sep 19 |
24 |
by Zakatsuki_
»»
4 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Will future AI cause Near Term Human Extinction (NTHE)?Freshell - 12 hours ago |
11 |
by Exhumatika
»»
24 minutes ago |
|
» Are Vtubers Ever Going To Be Mainstream?Kiyomice - Sep 17 |
13 |
by Exhumatika
»»
1 hour ago |
|
» Do You Embrace or Hide Your Degeneracy on MAL?ZzzDemon - 10 hours ago |
10 |
by Daemon
»»
1 hour ago |
|
» Good on Paper, But Still Never Been Close to a RelationshipZzzDemon - Sep 20 |
23 |
by Kiyomice
»»
1 hour ago |