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Aug 9, 2023 9:32 PM
#1
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Aug 2019
298
i love JoJolion, it’s far and away my favorite part of JoJo, but there are some parts that leave me scratching my head lol. 

one aspect of the story that always felt a little strange to me was how insanely overpowered the protagonist and antagonist both were by the end of it. honestly none of the stands in this part felt super broken until WoU was introduced, leaving that and Go Beyond to stick out a little. 

the main thing i’ve noticed is that starting as far back as part 4, being overpowered was earned through some insanely difficult process (being chosen by the stand arrow, the new moon ritual, collecting corpse parts, Gyro’s spin lessons). and while i don’t think Go Beyond is an asspull like some people do (it’s literally in chapter 1), i do wonder why Josuke has arguably the most powerful stand just… for no reason in particular. 

and as for Tooru, he’s kind of just a regular rock human right? what exactly made him special enough to get Final Destination powers? i feel like when stands were introduced they were said to be a reflection of the user’s fighting spirit, but it seems like Tooru is only as confident as he is BECAUSE of his broken ability, not the other way around.   

maybe it sounds like nitpicking but i’m really just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this, since the later parts of JoJo do seem really well thought out thematically, even if the plot is sometimes a little messy. 
Aug 10, 2023 12:51 AM
#2
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Dec 2020
325
josuke is effectively two people in one. doesnt that make him have gone through a difficult process? sure, he didnt get go beyond immediately after but he wasnt even a stand user at that time so i guess he needed the motivation to reach his full potential
Aug 10, 2023 8:34 AM
#3
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Jun 2021
88
the joestars have been always getting buffs by the end of their series, so I guess that's a going on thing
Aug 10, 2023 11:26 AM
#4
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Apr 2022
10
i love JJL, but i have some issues with it. even i felt it was strange tht Tooru and Josuk8 were this OP. but it makes sense. 95% rock humans hv stands. not only Tooru, but other RHs hv OP stands, VitC, Ozonebaby, Blue Hawaii(Josuk8 lost here, Yasuho saved his ass). plus Tooru is the head of Locacaca organization, he shld obvs have a stronger stand, RHs dont show affection, they dont form bonds and relationships, so if he didnt hv tht op stand, other Rhs would have killed him and taken his place. also in last chpt, Lucy sees Tooru. his denotes tht he is a curse looming over Morioh for a long time, if he didnt hv such OP stand, he wouldnt survived for this long. 
Josuk8's Go beyond was made from the deep bond between Josefumi and Kira, which also resulted in the "Miracle" of Josuke, letting them avoid certain death and keep fighting to save Holly. This "Miracle", the invisible soap bubbles, transcend logic and reason. Which doesn't just mean they can transcend WoU, it means they can transcend what WoU represents. They're a miracle which will solve the seemingly insurmountable problems of the story(curse)
Aug 10, 2023 12:16 PM
#5
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Jun 2021
110
I agree ngl it would have maybe helped for there to be a reason but I also don't really mind because those are 2 amazing stands. WoU is my personal favorite in all of jojo and S&W is just awesome
Aug 11, 2023 7:07 AM
#6
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Sep 2021
22
I always viewed it as Tooru not begin the one who has power so much as Wonder of U has power over him. As explained in the beginning of chapter 100 (or around that chapter, cant quite remember), Tooru's species is essentially cursed by God to exist below carbon life, only able to rise to prominence once the original trajectory of the tree of life begins to fail. Tooru seems to be aware of this, on some level (else, why even bring it up?), and is cursing God right back. He's blaspheming, his whole species is; they revere the Earth and not the Heavens, thus God despises him, but it can't act against him directly by the logic that governs the Steel Ball Run universe. Good and bad fortune come to each in equal measure. Presumably, those who suffer or give their fortunes to others in life go to heaven as reimbursement in good fortune. Thus, in order to have something bad happen to Tooru, he has to be granted an extraordinary boon to begin with. That's Wonder of U. It's a divine power, a fundamental governing law of the universe, weaponised (it also seems to affect the story in an absolute tonne of really esoteric ways: the last chapter leads me to believe that WWII happened so as to keep Fumi out of Japan, because he could've threatened Tooru, being the SBR universe's Joseph Joestar, notorious cheater of fate and shower-up to his own funeral. There's also the changing of Mamezuku the plant appraiser's backstory so as to focus on Tooru, which I view as WoU altering the past in an act of calamity, considering that Mamezuku himself termed his death by approaching WoU to be good fortune, thus the calamity must have happened elsewhere, and that elsewhere ended up being his past). Paisley Park is WoU's opposite, and I think that the flow continuously pulled Tooru and Yasuho together throughout their lives. Possibly it was the calamity energy generated whenever she attempted to get closer to him that caused her family issues. Note that Yasuho never actually asked Tooru's last name. Paisley Park may have unconsciously guided her away from pursuing his identity. Yasuho's ultimate piece of good fortune was finding Josuke, who is something to be viewed as a miracle and a mistake. Something absolutely WILL kill Tooru, his stand is the only thing keeping a wall of karmic calamity from slamming into him, but nothing in the universe actually has the power to do it until a string of coincidences brings Josuke into being, and Josuke's will and objectives are forcibly focused on Tooru by God.
That sounds a bit overly mythological and religious, but there's a lot of mythological allusions that can be made, and here are a few if you're still interested:
Tooru's a real Shylock figure. A monster of circumstance. His stand is effectively the Mark of Caine: it prevents him from joining society, because he can't get close to anyone, and it keeps anyone from doing him harm, with the promise of seven times the harm on anyone who'd try. I've also seen him compared to Prometheus (gives a human fire in chapter 102, suffers at the hands of the gods) and the Demiurge (there's the symbol on his shirt that some have compared to the lion-headed serpent, and he is trying to supplant God with a belief system that venerates the physical Earth).

It all sounds a bit silly, I'm aware, but I've read Japanese YouTube comments and put them through Google translate and they sound just as unhinged as me, so I must be onto something. I'll link you the one I saved, if you'd like. It mentioned the trees of knowledge and life in the garden of Eden, and said that that was where carbon and silicon humans split off from each other.
Aug 11, 2023 7:22 AM
#7
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Jul 2018
564074
Ye well most shonen protags don't 'deserve' to be as powerful as they are.
I'd love for Araki to make one of the main enemies have a very weak stand but he gradually masters it into something formidable enough.
Nov 30, 2023 9:20 PM
#8

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Mar 2021
485
I can ask the same question about any Shonen protagonist. The fact that Tooru is 1. the main villain 2. the person behind it all 3. An architect for destruction and the most powerful villain in the show apart from Pucci and Valentine should be things to celebrate not admonish.

Killa Queen and Soft and Wet combined have both the powers of Johnny's tusk act 4 combined with Josuke's lethal intellect and athletic abilities so yes he does deserve it.

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