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dmrch | Mar 12, 2016 3:24 PM
To me, Holo's wording seems to be 郭詞 (くるわことば), especially "わっち" and "ありんす" strongly remind me of that. Isn't Tsukuyo 遊女 (ゆうじょ) or the like? (I haven't watched Gintama).> I'd assume dmrch would second me that this isn't something that would be put up for correction. Yeah, I guess it will be fit for the relaxing mood of this club. > I don't know why dmrch is looking for some other guy The frame of my thinking way is completely based on the structure of the Japanese language, so my sense about various pronouns is very unconscious stuff. Because of that, I wanted to hear an objective opinion of you, ap19. |
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Erelen | Mar 11, 2016 9:14 PM
For anyone who are visiting/plan to visit soon Tokyo. In Meguro art gallery there is exhibition of photographs from Tohoku Great Earthquake. It is really worth watching. |
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DreamingBeats | Mar 11, 2016 9:04 PM
@ap19 ありがとうございます |
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ap19 | Mar 11, 2016 8:52 PM
@DreamingBeats表示がバグった @shina_luna I reckoned geezer signified male. Tsukuyo is, iirc, closer to Horo from Spice and Wolf in terms of speech. The primary difference between them and Shinobu is the first person singular, わっち (former) or わし (latter), or at least that's the only difference I was able to remember. わっち is a younger-sounding version of わし, which comes from how the consonant tch is harder to make than sh for elders. It's not really a matter of era, given both were (probably) used as often as each other at any given year in history. |
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DreamingBeats | Mar 11, 2016 6:02 PM
for example, you try posting something with indentation, etc, but the post comes out looking completely wrong. |
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DreamingBeats | Mar 11, 2016 6:00 PM
this is completely random, but anyone knows how to say "the formatting got messed up"? by formatting, i mean things like bbcode, line-spacing, indentation, etc. hope this makes sense...thanks~ |
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shina_luna | Mar 11, 2016 1:29 AM
Good to now about the おはようございます, thanks~Speaking of geezer-speak. - Tsukuyo in Gintama also uses some geezer speak, but it seems to sound a little bit diffrent. is that level of diffrence a bit like how shakesspeare English sounds diffrent than the Victoarian Age English? (Given that Shinobu's is supposed to be 400 years old and Gintama's Science Fiction Meiji is from 250 years ago) |
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ap19 | Mar 10, 2016 10:45 PM
Glad someone mentioned Shinobu.> 新入ですよ！ I'd assume dmrch would second me that this isn't something that would be put up for correction. In any case, I didn't mean to induce an apology from either of you. > using manga and anime There's no problem referring to a particular concept from them if they do indeed represent real life situations. >おはようございます before 新入ですよ おはようございます is used so much to the point any formality can be added or subtracted by its surrounding corpus. Japanese people would take the latter 新入りですよ part as the characteristic trait of that person. I don't know why dmrch is looking for some other guy, when dmrch nailed this one down just fine. おまえさま, along with じゃ, gives Shinobu her finest ロリババァ character. |
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shina_luna | Mar 10, 2016 7:11 AM
@dmrchOh, that eldery part was very intriguing. This shows Shinobu in quite a diffrent light, too. I did notice, she talks in an old fashion, but always considered おまえさま as a piece of haughtiness and sarcasm, which she often exposes Arararagi to, instead of being some sort of relationship as close to husband-wife. (Although that certainly fits the "we will die together theme" very well.) I feel like, I could just go an rewatch the whole franchise all over again. XD |
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Erelen | Mar 10, 2016 4:32 AM
@dmrch: I've never seen so easy to understand explanation in my life. You should be a teacher.Also it shows how much improvement need Polish education. I was told that おまえ you use for people that you think that are "worse" than you (it would mean something like "brat" in English. あなた you use for everyone, and ーさん／－さま for your boss. I learned much thanks to You, ap19 and DreamingBeats. Oh I think that it is worth mentioning. Today I had a first interview. It would go good, if my brain didn't do "boom" because of nerves. The worst part... I was able to answer all asked questions in Japanese, but... at the moment when I get back to station. My stupid brain, why do you do this to me. ;( But still, everything went way better than expected, it is all thanks to everyone. |
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dmrch | Mar 9, 2016 6:52 PM
@Erelenおまえさん and おまえさま were originally polite pronouns. And now those words are basically considered as pronouns for expressing familiarity toward persons in very close relationship, especially by women toward their husbands. However, to tell the truth, those are almost never used in real life. (I have been living in Japan as a native Japanese speaker, but I have almost never heard those pronouns in my real life). On the other hand, those are sometimes used by middle-aged women or elderly women toward their husbands in Japanese literature including manga and anime. Shinobu in the Monogatari series refers to Araragi as おまえさま by this usage. Attention: You need not to use those words. Especially at usage by male persons, those pronouns are usually regarded as over-familiarity or feeling of looking down on. I tried to think of the safe cases for using them, but I couldn't find. (I'm afraid that I will bring confusion to you by mentioning the following). About the root of your question, using "おまえ" will be impolite when you use it to someone who is not your familiar person. However, it is somewhat difficult to explain. I personally think it can't be simplified as polite/impolite issues, because the manner of using Japanese pronouns are also based on distance of relationship between the speaker and the listener, or the person who is mentioned. I mean, close friends of mine and I always call "おまえ" to each other, but we have never thought it would be impolite or anything. On the other hand, if one of them calls me as "あなた", it will be quite unnatural. I (and probably most of native Japanese speakers) switch pronouns depending on relationship, without conscious volition. Likewise, polite/impolite ways are changed by the relationship. ......日本語も英語もできて、説明がうまくて、ここによく来る人がもっとちゃんと説明してくれないかな(チラッチラッ この話ってネイティヴレベルだと答えるのが逆に難しくて面倒くさいって分かっているけど、それでも他の人の意見も知りたいな(チラッチラッ スレ立てても良いレベルだよねこれ(チラッチラッ @DreamingBeats ここって食物部だったの!? |
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shina_luna | Mar 9, 2016 3:04 AM
@ap19But that would be quite a casual case, could that be? I mean, usually you don't exclaim "I'm new!" to a crowd of unknown people, in the wester hemisphere like that either, do you? (At least I almost never witnessed it, except for when somebody is puporsely trying to play the clown or break some sober atmophere.) ... and just filling up my curiosity; isn't おはよう ございますpretty formal? Would add something jolly afterwards seems possibly create some weird contrast? @Erelen お前さま is a joke or irony or sarcasm with the contrast. (I never witnessed it in any other context at least.) If I remember correctly Shinobu also uses it for Araragi in the Monogatari franchise. There is starts off as the big shot vampire and also his direkt master, when she was still Kiss-Shot, then Kizumonogatari things happened, she shrinked to the loli, sat in the corner and then in Nisemono she somewhat accepted Arararagi and he sorts of became her master, so she is his sidekick and not the other way round, but the old relation is still somewhat lingering, so the meshup there is even reflecting their complicated relationship. There are also cases, where somebody generally simply speaks brutely and the joke shows a bit of their uneducation or how it's just being naive to simply add a sama and all were fine. |
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DreamingBeats | Mar 8, 2016 4:15 PM
probably the same meaning as 貴様the 様 is not used as an honorific in this case. |
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Erelen | Mar 8, 2016 4:12 PM
@swirlplums: Welcome! Before joining the course use the DreamingBeats advise. Hiragana and katakana are fast to learn (hiragana should take you no more than week), but they are really helpful. Also one more advise: when you will be learning new words on course, learn them in kanji, even if you don't need too. It is a real pain to learn something that you already know, but now written differently.Speaking about anime and movies, I heard few days ago the phrase お前さま (that was in Bakuman or Pan, can't remember). Isn't お前 unpolitle way to say "You"? Then why did the person use "さま"? |
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DreamingBeats | Mar 8, 2016 1:38 PM
@ap19 maybe you're right, in which case i apologize. using manga and anime is a not-so-great example though, since they tend to deviate from real life. welcome. i would recommend learning the kanas first - it would make everything easier (plus, you'll be way ahead of your class ;) ) if you're trying to learn with online sources, do note that some of them (including jpod101) were found to contain mistakes. it's probably best to stick with more reputable sources, like Genki: http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/self_en would strongly recommend starting out learning the kanas. |
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swirlplums | Mar 8, 2016 1:20 PM
Hi :) I'm new to this club, feel free to add me! Planning on taking a beginner's course in Japanese this summer, so I'm just trying to get a bit of background knowledge so I'm not completely lost haha |
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ap19 | Mar 8, 2016 1:03 PM
@DreamingBeats and shina_lunaYou're both forcibly overwriting the current situation with a hypothetical one. You don't necessarily need to take all manners of speech in a bad way. 新入りですよ！ can simply express jolly character. Japanese doesn't have to shape people into formality and dullness. I'm sure it's not hard to find examples of this kind of phrasing in manga and anime. |
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shina_luna | Mar 8, 2016 8:53 AM
To me, 新入りですよ！feels like a justification, when somebody screwed up and he himself (if the be so bold) tries to weasel himself out with some desperate last line defense or somebody else (who is a bit tactless) is jumping in to protect the screwed up guy from some angry person. In a manner of "It's a new guy, what do you expect in the first place?" |
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DreamingBeats | Mar 8, 2016 6:30 AM
×私はここで新しいですよ!△新入りですよ！ ○新入りですが宜しくお願いします。 the first one is a google-translated sentence. native speakers will probably not understand. the second one is grammatically correct, but the よ feels forceful. i'm not sure how to explain it, but it just doesn't feel natural the third one is more or less how you'd actually say it. 食物部へようこそ。:p |
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Erelen | Mar 8, 2016 5:06 AM
Yonshun様、こんにちは。Erelenです。はじめまして。よろしくお願いします。お元気でいらっしゃいますか。ここで良い時間を過ごしてください。 |