| Just as the title says, do you guys remember when those little notes on the screen from the subbers would appear to give a brief explanation on what something was referring to or a definition of a word that wasn't translated? Do you guys know what happened to those? I'm watching Cowboy Bebop and one of those popped up at the top of the screen to explain what Qing-Jiao-rou-si is (It's Beef with Bell Peppers for those curious.) What happened to these? I remember them being so common. Is it laziness? Deadlines? I'm curious. Source of this post: http://i.imgur.com/dlfQZv3.png |
| Hm, looks like I can't get my signature to work anymore. |
| I think translators are more likely to localise nowadays. If that had been subbed today it would probably just say "Special beef with bell peppers" without a note of translation. |
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| "What happened" is that all fansubbers rip their scripts from official simulcast releases now and then re-upload them for credit after rewording a few things at the most. This means they not only aren't actually translating the stuff to begin with, but that they have no intention of putting effort in. Most of them couldn't tell you what you'd need a TL note for anyway. Some official DVD & BD releases have them on a third subtitle track but that's it. |
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| "Remember"? They're still there, and they still suck. You call the lack of TL notes "lazy"? I call the lack of creativity to get around TL notes lazy. Can't fault the translators if they're on a strict deadline though unless they do shit like the picture Red_Keys posted. I mean, who in the world thinks this is an example of good subtitles? |
gamer2710Jan 20, 2014 3:58 AM
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| Aha, actually I've never seen them. Either I couldn't care less and didn't pay attention or I just didn't watch an anime series that had them. |
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TallonKarrde23 said: "What happened" is that all fansubbers rip their scripts from official simulcast releases now and then re-upload them for credit after rewording a few things at the most. This means they not only aren't actually translating the stuff to begin with, but that they have no intention of putting effort in. Most of them couldn't tell you what you'd need a TL note for anyway. Some official DVD & BD releases have them on a third subtitle track but that's it. Hey, hey, hey, Hadena does all their own translations. |
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| Watch Nobunagun |
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gamer2710 said: "Remember"? They're still there, and they still suck. You call the lack of TL notes "lazy"? I call the lack of creativity to get around TL notes lazy. Can't fault the translators if they're on a strict deadline though unless they do shit like the picture Red_Keys posted. I mean, who in the world thinks this is an example of good subtitles? If you ask me, it'd be unwanted creativity. I prefer to experience foreign media as close to its original meaning as possible, and perhaps learn a thing or two while watching. This is why it annoys me when honorifics are excluded, or Japanese food names are changed to western ones; it's obnoxious. |
Red_Keys said: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/072/265/1237917779613.jpg?1284764547 the /uguu/ line really got to me right there. |
| Translator notes were pretty much essential for me during something like Akagi, to explain how the fuck Mahjong works. However I don't need TL notes to tell me what "kawaii" means. If you're gonna put it on screen might aswell have put "cute" in the subs. |
| I remember there were alot of em in the Gintama sub I watched years ago. I don't think Enchousen had any on the other hand. |
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| There were a lot of intrusive tl notes, but sometimes having slides after an episode could be highly informative. |
| A lot of those TL notes were reference notes that shouldn't have been there. If the Japanese viewers didn't get a little note saying "This is referencing (other anime A from 3 years ago)," why should non-Japanese viewers get a note for it? Though I suppose some notes can be justified for references to things that're almost universal knowledge for Japanese viewers but largely unknown to Western viewers, like Doraemon. Similarly, Japanese viewers don't get notes for things in the realm of general scientific or historical knowledge, so Western viewers shouldn't, either. If it's something relating to Japanese language, history, politics, or culture, it can be worthwhile to provide a TL note, but if it's something like bread-baking techniques or the origin of chocolate, then no. If a Japanese viewer wouldn't know something by virtue of having been raised Japanese, then TL-noting it would go against the creators' intentions. That leaves two other categories of notes: the deliberate joke/troll TL notes like this: http://s533.photobucket.com/user/Zalis_116/media/Ayako-Himatsubushi_Needless_-_05_400pXVID75AD2ECAavi_snapshot_1245_20100701_212216_zps49db1538.jpg.html I think we can agree on how "needless" those are. And the "keikaku means plan" variety, where it's simpler and better to just put a simple translation or good localization in. Do we really want to go back to the days of notes like this? http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee336/Zalis_116/Miyuki-FansubsYamitoBoushitoHonnoTabibito-06XviDB43AB016avi-00001_zps654c6e81.png |
on 
| I never understood why they'd put "sensei" in the sub, then on top of the screen say "sensei means teacher". Why not just type "teacher" instead of "sensei"!? Though I'd understand the value of explaining things that make no sense literally translated, like an ep of k-ON!! where Yui said something like "that's the crane's remorse" or "this must be the crane's greed" and I still have no idea what she was talking about. |
| Never forget, that if you post a topic, you're not allowed to post in it yourself, by order of MAL administration. |
| About 10% of those notes were actually helpful; the other ones just got in the way. But I don't know where they have gone, I agree that they aren't as common as they used to be. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Red_Keys said: laughedhttp://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/072/265/1237917779613.jpg?1284764547 |
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Taxi_Commander said: Then do you think the pictures Red_Keys, Zalis, and I posted are examples of good subtitles? Based on what you just said, one would assume you would answer "yes."gamer2710 said: "Remember"? They're still there, and they still suck. You call the lack of TL notes "lazy"? I call the lack of creativity to get around TL notes lazy. Can't fault the translators if they're on a strict deadline though unless they do shit like the picture Red_Keys posted. I mean, who in the world thinks this is an example of good subtitles? If you ask me, it'd be unwanted creativity. I prefer to experience foreign media as close to its original meaning as possible, and perhaps learn a thing or two while watching. This is why it annoys me when honorifics are excluded, or Japanese food names are changed to western ones; it's obnoxious. If you ask me, the original meaning means nothing to the average foreign viewer. This is why it annoys me when honorifics are included, or when fictional names of things such as attack moves or fictional objects are not translated. It's lazy and it shows that whoever is translating doesn't want to get more newer viewers to view their stuff. Commercial entertainment is not supposed to teach, it is supposed to make money. |
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
Forgetfulness said: That spiel wasn't directly related to the pictures, but you get the point, right? None of them are examples good (or even watchable) subtitles even if--or rather, due more in part to the fact that some of the pictures were troll subs. The best subs don't ever need to explain anything to the viewer.Only one of those three pictures included honorifics or something that would be considered specifically Japanese. |
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion. |
gamer2710 said: Then do you think the pictures Red_Keys, Zalis, and I posted are examples of good subtitles? Based on what you just said, one would assume you would answer "yes." Of course not. Those are blatantly bad examples. gamer2710 said: If you ask me, the original meaning means nothing to the average foreign viewer. This is why it annoys me when honorifics are included, or when fictional names of things such as attack moves or fictional objects are not translated. It's lazy and it shows that whoever is translating doesn't want to get more newer viewers to view their stuff. I respectfully disagree. I think modifying the dialog in that way shows lack of effort and a bit of disrespect, and that most viewers would prefer it be done to an absolute minimum if they were aware of it. I think it's clear why not translating single words that have similar meaning to ours, like marriage and cute, or attack names, is a bad idea: it doesn't add anything. But honorifics are a core part of the culture these shows are based on. |
| First off, why the hell are you watching Cowboy Bebop subtitled? |
Dubs>subs. Breaking Bad>Anime Comic books>manga 99% of Anime is Garbage |
MajinSaga said: To spite you, of course.First off, why the hell are you watching Cowboy Bebop subtitled? |
NoSurrender1690 said: our frieend here like out white wash culture out of anime I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you meant there. NoSurrender1690 said: why the hell you watch anime reading your sig In his defense, Breaking Bad is pretty spectacular. |
Taxi_Commander said: You can't say that part, though. How are you able to speak for other people when it is your own opinion that you are trying to express?I respectfully disagree. I think modifying the dialog in that way shows lack of effort and a bit of disrespect, and that most viewers would prefer it be done to an absolute minimum if they were aware of it. And no, modifying dialogue actually takes more effort because the writer has to think about the impact the lines are going to have on the new audience. If the writing isn't "modified," then all the translator is doing is a simple lazy word-for-word substitution. The dialogue, in your case, is already there--the translator does not have to think about the lines or the audience; the translator just has to substitute <x language> for <y language>. I think it's clear why not translating single words that have similar meaning to ours, like marriage and cute, or attack names, is a bad idea: it doesn't add anything. But honorifics are a core part of the culture these shows are based on. Culture isn't a significant part of what makes a show worth watching and worth buying, at least not to me.Tell you what, go watch a random Sentai Filmworks English dub, preferably something directed by Christopher Ayres. Based on your argument, their scripts are pretty damn good. Pay no attention to the voice acting, just listen to the dialogue. |
gamer2710Jan 20, 2014 7:51 PM
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| I like TL notes for explaining specific Japanese references (Example: using a politician/celebrity as a punchline, regularly used in Gintama). I don't like them when they could've just replaced the Japanese term with an equivalent English word. Some instances where they replace food terms with equivalent English terms suck though, I'm sick of seeing 'Salisbury steak' in subtitles for one. |
gamer2710 said: You can't say that part, though. How are you able to speak for other people when it is your own opinion that you are trying to express? gamer2710 said: If you ask me, the original meaning means nothing to the average foreign viewer. I said "I think", I didn't declare it to be accurate. It's my best guess, nothing more, same as pretty much all posts in these kinds of discussions. gamer2710 said: And no, modifying dialogue actually takes more effort because the writer has to think about the impact the lines are going to have on the new audience. If the writing isn't "modified," then all the translator is doing is a simple lazy word-for-word substitution. The dialogue, in your case, is already there--the translator does not have to think about the lines or the audience; the translator just has to substitute <x language> for <y language No translator just translates word for word what is being said. The meaning would be muddied and it would be confusing. The goal of an anime translator is always to find the meaning of each line and rewrite it so that it has the same meaning in its new form, for its new audience. I never advocated subpar translation, I advocated cautious localization. gamer2710 said: Tell you what, go watch a random Sentai Filmworks English dub, preferably something directed by Christopher Ayres. Based on your argument, their scripts are pretty damn good. Pay no attention to the voice acting, just listen to the dialogue. I don't know of any of those films' dubs, but I'm guessing they're bad. Finding terrible examples and trying to pin them to someone's argument is bad form if you ask me. |
| The TL notes kind of annoyed me for the most part, I don't care about the note unless it's explaining something that ACTUALLY needed explaining which usually it didn't. |
Radioskpup said: Agreed. It bothers me, for example, when they translated "Bill Builder" (or something) into Pokemon in AnoHana subtitles, when I could clearly hear that they did not say Pokemon. I can understand if they chose to localize in this way in the dubs, but subtitles should reflect the original as close as possible. This is where TL notes come in. (Although I'm certain anyone of average intelligence could guess what Bill Builder is from the context even if they've never played that game.)Some instances where they replace food terms with equivalent English terms suck though, I'm sick of seeing 'Salisbury steak' in subtitles for one. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Taxi_Commander said: To me, you advocate for "not enough" localization. What I want to see is something that sounds natural in English, as if an English writer wrote the lines for a show originally in English; not to write "what he's saying in Japanese," but to write "what he would say in English."gamer2710 said: And no, modifying dialogue actually takes more effort because the writer has to think about the impact the lines are going to have on the new audience. If the writing isn't "modified," then all the translator is doing is a simple lazy word-for-word substitution. The dialogue, in your case, is already there--the translator does not have to think about the lines or the audience; the translator just has to substitute <x language> for <y language>. No translator just translates word for word what is being said. The meaning would be muddied and it would be confusing. The goal of an anime translator is always to find the meaning of each line and rewrite it so that it has the same meaning in its new form, for its new audience. I never advocated subpar translation, I advocated cautious localization. gamer2710 said: Tell you what, go watch a random Sentai Filmworks English dub, preferably something directed by Christopher Ayres. Based on your argument, their scripts are pretty damn good. Pay no attention to the voice acting, just listen to the dialogue. I don't know of any of those films' dubs, but I'm guessing they're bad. Finding terrible examples and trying to pin them to someone's argument is bad form if you ask me. |
gamer2710Jan 20, 2014 8:06 PM
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gamer2710 said: What I want to see is something that sounds natural in English, as if an English writer wrote the lines for a show originally in English; not to write "what he's saying in Japanese," but to write "what he would say in English." That's essentially what I prefer. A rewrite to english that means the same thing and is comfortable to read. I just don't think that culturally specific terms need to be changed/removed for that to happen. gamer2710 said: Sentai Filmworks is not a series of films, it is the name of a US anime licensing company that releases tons of anime in the US. Some of the series they release have English dubs. ...You don't know this? Haha, sorry about misunderstanding, "filmworks" set off an assumption. I don't see a reason for me to know about licensing companies though. I'm not the kind of person who, say, learns the names of all the people in bands he likes. |
| I use TL notes in my manga translations. I try to translate as accurately as possible so if there is something that doesn't translate well into english I make a note to explain what the original text meant. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
| PaniPoniDash had tl notes pointing out obscure references; i loved that |
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| Gintama comes to mind |
| Personally i liked the old subs more then many of these "Official subs" if you can call them that are to Americanised in my opinion. A few years ago it was normal to see how a person was called in anime like if someone is talking to an older girl and calls her nee-san the subs would do the same while these "official subs" will go with miss or lady. Or where a character talking is talking to their sister calling her onee-chan the subs would do the same but the "official subs" will always go with sister. Which doesn't work with many anime this season has one anime in particular where it doesn't work Mikakunin de Shinkoukei where one characters wishes to be addressed in several different ways she mentions onee-chan onee-san onee-sama nee-chan and aniki and the "official sub" translated them all as either sister or dear sister, which simply makes the point of the character useless and doesn't make any sense to people not familiar with anime or Japanese language. While many of the older subs of fansubs would translate it correctly and leave a translation note for newcomers to anime. But the thing that really annoys me about these "official subs" is that the intrepid the American system instead of the Japanese one. For example when talking about the school system when talking about a second year junior high student the old subs and fansubs would often translate it directly while "official subs" subs will always say 8th grade after the American system. In my opinion English subs are aimed at a international audience not just the US audience and simple fact is that many countries have different systems so now we not only have to know about the Japanese system but also the American one, which i find insulting. On top of that America is probably one of the only countries that keep counting up with their grade system when entering high school, in most other countries when entering high school your not a 7th grades but you are a first year. So it's much easier from an international point of view to just keep with the Japanese system and it probably would make more sense to a US audience as well. With Official subs i mean the ones working for Funimation or CR or similar services. And they changed some things but i honestly think it's not for the better if anything they still have a lot to learn and to improve on. |
| +1 to the post above me. I personally liked TL notes. I have never run into any, that I can remember anyway, that were blatantly terrible or not needed like the examples posted previously. |
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| I don't like this sort of thing and glad they are gone for these very reasons: gamer2710 said: this Red_Keys said: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/072/265/1237917779613.jpg?1284764547 This is all very unncessary. |
| I have mixed feelings on it honestly. On the one hand I dislike that they changed names or how characters adress each other. If the character says nee-san Id like to kind of see nee-san in the subtitles not just Lady. It just seems out of place and since I am not from an english speaking country its not like its pandering to me anyway. It just feels weird having a character beeing a adressed by a foreign language to me in an anime that is set in a country that speaks yet anotehr foreign language. On the other hand I am glad they translated stuff like the aforementioned baka- whatever to fools. Dont need that really. As for general info TL notes I do miss them. I dont know everything and I would be really glad if some of the lesser known facts would be explained, especially if its a japanese only thing that the west doesnt get. And hell even if its stuff from the west, you cant expect me to know the history of the USA when I dont live there, I'd gladly have TL notes. Even Troll TL notes can be fun, altough it varies I guess. But most Troll or joke TL notes I have seen where fun. |
| I still see them here and there. |
| My anime blog Latest Post: The Zero Requiem (Analysis of the Ending of Code Geass) |
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