Kerozinn said: Oroboro said: Monogatari franchise +1 When does Monogatari ever try to be deep? |
baki502 said: Kerozinn said: Oroboro said: Monogatari franchise +1 When does Monogatari ever try to be deep? Why, because wordplay, varying topics of conversation, and SHAFT imagery is automatically DEEP in the eyes of our dear viewers. |
| FLCL shinseki yori |
Ckan said: baki502 said: Kerozinn said: Oroboro said: Monogatari franchise +1 When does Monogatari ever try to be deep? Why, because wordplay, varying topics of conversation, and SHAFT imagery is automatically DEEP in the eyes of our dear viewers. Shaft simply takes anime and super stylizes, and overexagerates it. But at no point is it really touching any deep or philosophical topics. Some people really should rethink their definition of deep ^^. |
| I would have to say the Kara no Kyoukai series (especially the 5th movie) and Psycho Pass. Despite that, I still really love both series but they do tend to be a bit pretentious at times. |
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RandomChampion said: SSY never tried to be deep.FLCL shinseki yori |
tiro_finale said: RandomChampion said: SSY never tried to be deep.FLCL shinseki yori it was far from some brainless action series or laid-back comedy or whatever. it did try to be a commentary regarding various topics, if i remember correctly |
| While not the most pseudo-intellectual anime I've seen, Black Lagoon tried to be deep at times but was unable to pull it off imo. I'm mostly referring to Revy's philosophical ramblings about how crappy the world is - not only were her views black and white, but they never changed and took a backseat in favor of the over-the-top action. |
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| Must by Psycho-Pass |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Higashi_no_Kaze said: Must by Psycho-Pass Ergo Proxy and the Monogatari franchise might be a runner-ups as well, but PP is far worse. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| I don't like to call things pseudo-anything because sometimes it's not even trying to pass this impression nor has it as a purpose but some people think it is And other times the person just doesn't like the story and says loudly it's pretentious shit, so i'd rather not call something pretentious at all. For instance, the referred Steins;Gate don't even try to be intellectual. It covers briefly and lightly the theme of time-traveling as a narrative device to bring about a story about love and friendship |
Nidhoeggr said: Higashi_no_Kaze said: Must by Psycho-Pass Ergo Proxy and the Monogatari franchise might be a runner-ups as well, but PP is far worse. Seriously I dont see why people think Monogatar is even attempting to be deep. Its clearly just a super stylized artistic show. |
baki502 said: Nidhoeggr said: Higashi_no_Kaze said: Must by Psycho-Pass Ergo Proxy and the Monogatari franchise might be a runner-ups as well, but PP is far worse. Seriously I dont see why people think Monogatar is even attempting to be deep. Its clearly just a super stylized artistic show. Agree on Monogatari, I wouldn't put it in that category either. As for Ergo Proxy, I've seen it when I was still way younger and I liked but, but I would also have found PP to be incredible deep back then so you're probably right about it. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
baki502 said: Kerozinn said: Oroboro said: Monogatari franchise +1 When does Monogatari ever try to be deep? Didn't you know? any anime that tries to be noticeably different in terms of art or anything like dialogue for example is automatically a pretentious pseudo intellectual anime. -Tien- said: While not the most pseudo-intellectual anime I've seen, Black Lagoon tried to be deep at times but was unable to pull it off imo. I'm mostly referring to Revy's philosophical ramblings about how crappy the world is - not only were her views black and white, but they never changed and took a backseat in favor of the over-the-top action. Yeah, that one of the many things that bugged me about the series. I even mentioned Revy's black and white world view in my crappy review. Revy could have been a great character or at least better imo. |
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tsudecimo said: baki502 said: Kerozinn said: Oroboro said: Monogatari franchise +1 When does Monogatari ever try to be deep? Didn't you know? any anime that tries to be noticeably different in terms of art or anything like dialogue for example is automatically a pretentious pseudo intellectual anime. Or even if it is science fiction. |
Higashi_no_Kaze said: Must by Psycho-Pass Agreed...what a waste of time that was |
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| You guys have never seen true pretentiousness until you've watched Angel's Egg. It is a story so 'deep' and 'complex' that there is absolutely no meaning to anything that happens. It's symbolism with no connection; no purpose. Characterisation and logic is above mere plebeians such as ourselves, so the only message it leaves is "Come up with your own theory!" |
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Veronin said: You guys have never seen true pretentiousness until you've watched Angel's Egg. It is a story so 'deep' and 'complex' that there is absolutely no meaning to anything that happens. It's symbolism with no connection; no purpose. Characterisation and logic is above mere plebeians such as ourselves, so the only message it leaves is "Come up with your own theory!" Hmm angels egg is a tough one. I guess you could call it a bit of a pseudo deep one, but then again with it having no dialogue at all Id rather just see it as a mute film trying to convey a very abstruse story. Sure it has a lot of symbolism that sort of agan throws it into the pseudo-intellectual anime department, but I would still stick with it being a simply abstruse form of story-telling. |
| An anime is pseudo-intellectual if it tries hard to present something philosophical or artistic, but ultimately without a unifying theme to make it actually so. Psycho-Pass is pseudo-intellectual because it quoted a bunch of philosophers with no context as if they meant something. Zetsuen no Tempest is pseudo-intellectual because it referred to logic in completely incomprehensible ways. Steins;Gate, in my opinion, is barely pseudo-intellectual, unless you count Okabe's ramblings which are just part of his kooky characterization -- he's not supposed to be taken seriously, and certainly the other members of the cast don't take him seriously. Steins;Gate, however, being a visual novel, is susceptible to all the trappings of one, including techno-babble tying together fiction with reality (like its predecessor Chaos;Head). Ergo Proxy I feel is structured like one of those mindfuck anime replete with references of Eastern philosophy that will confuse most of its audience, like Wolf's Rain. It gives a facade of pseudo-intellectualism because it uses a lot of expositions to make an obscure point, however there is actually a point made at the end (unlike Psycho-Pass), thus I consider it a real intellectual series, although rather mediocre overall due to bad pacing and gimmicky plot devices. Serial Experiment Lain and Ghost in the Shell (the movies) fall into this category. The techno-babble will confuse you, but there's a man behind the mask. Shinsekai Yorie, well, it's not even a matter of it trying to be deep, it's just fanboys reading deepness into the series where none occur. It's a decent (good, even) drama with a thematically weak ending that betrays its themes, but I won't necessarily call it pseudo-intellectual because it doesn't necessarily present itself as one -- for one, it doesn't endlessly quote Max Weber or Shakespeare, or overuse cliched symbolism. Monogatari series and FLCL, I feel, aren't even in the same sphere. For people saying they're "deep", it's like saying Tetris is deep -- maybe true on some meta-level, but that's not what we're talking about here. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Veronin said: You guys have never seen true pretentiousness until you've watched Angel's Egg. It is a story so 'deep' and 'complex' that there is absolutely no meaning to anything that happens. It's symbolism with no connection; no purpose. Characterisation and logic is above mere plebeians such as ourselves, so the only message it leaves is "Come up with your own theory!" Every anime doesn't have to abide by the same rules in order to put across an experience. There is actually a lot of meaning behind the film, but one of the things I really loved was just about everyone can take something different from the film -- even all of this 'pseudo-intellectuality' you're claiming it has does not need to be picked up on in order to enjoy the experience. This might be a negative for you, but it allows the film to be a much more unique experience, rather than the same thing for everyone. Does it really matter that it goes against traditional storytelling techniques? |
| получить деньги моего друга |
syzyqy said: Veronin said: You guys have never seen true pretentiousness until you've watched Angel's Egg. It is a story so 'deep' and 'complex' that there is absolutely no meaning to anything that happens. It's symbolism with no connection; no purpose. Characterisation and logic is above mere plebeians such as ourselves, so the only message it leaves is "Come up with your own theory!" Every anime doesn't have to abide by the same rules in order to put across an experience. There is actually a lot of meaning behind the film, but one of the things I really loved was just about everyone can take something different from the film -- even all of this 'pseudo-intellectuality' you're claiming it has does not need to be picked up on in order to enjoy the experience. This might be a negative for you, but it allows the film to be a much more unique experience, rather than the same thing for everyone. Does it really matter that it goes against traditional storytelling techniques? But the movie is sooo fuckin boring and directionless though. You can have a unique story that still has something resembling a narrative. |
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| When the hell did Steins Gate ever even try to be intellectual? It was more of a dramatic sci-fi story, not trying to be deep. |
| Salmon is delicious. |
| >FLCL WOOOOOOOOOW. In all seriously though, Fate/Zero is the first thing that comes to mind. There's a lot of "just Gods philosophizing about God stuff" scenes that don't really seem to serve any essential purpose. I dropped PP after a few episodes, but it was also a pretty big offender. Don't understand the S;G and Monogatari claims at all. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
| Evangelion the christian reference were cool and all but... just... no |
Heredity said: Since every anime example has likely been mentioned 10 times already, what about manga? Genkaku Picasso is some seriously pseudo-intellectual shit. Pretentious is just oozing out of the plot synopsis. |
| "After I finish fucking you. I am going to kill you." |
elite-sama said: there is actually a point made at the end (unlike Psycho-Pass) The point that Psycho-pass tried to make is that whether we like it or not, society is run by psychopaths. It's not about philosophy, it's about psychology. The series is littered with references to psychology; e.g. crowds standing by and simply watching attacks happen is a reference to the bystander effect, and the series uses this to illustrate that the Sibyl System has made the bystander effect even worse. |
Fatalmemory said: I believe elite is arguing that by making copious, constant and yet superficial references, Psycho-pass was essentially being 'pretentious' and I personally mean that in a sense without any derision necessarily attached.elite-sama said: there is actually a point made at the end (unlike Psycho-Pass) The point that Psycho-pass tried to make is that whether we like it or not, society is run by psychopaths. It's not about philosophy, it's about psychology. The series is littered with references to psychology; e.g. crowds standing by and simply watching attacks happen is a reference to the bystander effect, and the series uses this to illustrate that the Sibyl System has made the bystander effect even worse. You can argue that this 'psychological' theme and those references were the main point made by P-P, (and this is only as far as I can recall, so opinions, bias, ignorance, etc. amirite?) but on the other hand, this doesn't justify the constant referencing and quoting (of literature and philosophy) that were at times only done, so as to make the characters blatant mouthpieces. Of course, this isn't necessarily false in itself, but I feel that Gen never fully engaged with the context and meaning of those quoted. That is to say, while the literature and philosophical quotations could be seen as an important aspect of the characters' knowledge and personality; their characterisation, but it was also used to create an image of a show that was more 'educated' and 'profound' than it actually was: 'shoe-horned' references were made where original dialogue could easily have sufficed. |
CkanFeb 2, 2014 10:04 PM
| Code Geass a million times over. Heard it was something like "Death note with mechs" from several people. Clearly not the case. |
Champloo_Remix said: It may have been a little preachy ideologically-wise, but did it ever really attempt to be 'intellectual'? I suppose it did have chess, and even had the gall to reference Chinese history!Code Geass a million times over. Heard it was something like "Death note with mechs" from several people. Clearly not the case. |
Ckan said: but it was also used to create an image of a show that was more 'educated' and 'profound' than it actually was: 'shoe-horned' references were made where original dialogue could easily have sufficed. Do you feel the same way about Aku no Hana? Because I'd say that in the same vein, the audience is supposed to feel as though the MC is pretentious, and sympathize with his adolescent special snowflake syndrome. |
FatalmemoryFeb 2, 2014 11:02 PM
Fatalmemory said: Can't say, as I've yet to pick it up.Ckan said: but it was also used to create an image of a show that was more 'educated' and 'profound' than it actually was: 'shoe-horned' references were made where original dialogue could easily have sufficed. Do you feel the same way about Aku no Hana? Because I'd say that in the same vein, the audience is supposed to feel as though the MC is pretentious. I'd agree that it was quite likely intended to give Makishima that sort of character, but I'm not so sure Shinya was meant to be held in that sort of 'intellectual'-light, and if he was, it never sat that well with me. I'll also freely to admit to not having the clearest memory of the series, so I may be off on many a count as I never rewatched a significant amount, nor did I dive into all the references that were unfamiliar to me. |
| Admittedly, psycho-pass was often ineffective in its storytelling and ability to create tension, but I did enjoy that rather than "thought crime", it seemed to invent a new concept of "identity crime", where you are sorted and persecuted according to what kind of person you think you are. |
Fatalmemory said: Definitely agreed that P-P threw in a bunch of interesting ideas, and while I did find some of the execution a little unfortunate, I greatly enjoyed it.Admittedly, psycho-pass was often ineffective in its storytelling and ability to create tension, but I did enjoy that rather than "thought crime", it seemed to invent a new concept of "identity crime", where you are sorted and persecuted according to what kind of person you think you are. |
Fatalmemory said: That is not even close to the thematic conclusion, otherwise Akane would not have placed her hope in the future of mankind through inaction. The culmination of character actions actually had concrete effect in the world of Ergo Proxy, whereas in Psycho-Pass, it practically reset to zero on purpose. They had the opportunity to either destroy Sybil or change it, but decided that status quo and stability was better than change. Psycho-Pass is exactly the type of anime that Kim Jing Il would love to broadcast to his people as part of a brainwashing campaign.The point that Psycho-pass tried to make is that whether we like it or not, society is run by psychopaths. It's not about philosophy, it's about psychology. Fatalmemory said: Crowds standing by watching action is a longstanding cliche in shounen anime. Psycho-Pass doesn't really stand out in this regard. Whether it actually attempted to illustrate psychological effects, it concluded nothing original on them. Regurgitating "references" to in an attempt to give depth to the plot when original thought could have sufficed is rather different than using the plot to call to attention certain principles -- the latter encourages the audience to think whereas the former thinks for the audience, effectively encapsulating its themes into a little box where the boundaries are revealed. If Psycho-Pass had a challenging conclusion such that it could provide commentary on these issues, then perhaps it could've struck down the walls that it built up. Unfortunately, Akane accepted that box and put a little bow tie on it.The series is littered with references to psychology; e.g. crowds standing by and simply watching attacks happen is a reference to the bystander effect, and the series uses this to illustrate that the Sibyl System has made the bystander effect even worse. Instead of presenting the parable before presenting the moral, this is like presenting the moral therefore the parable. The moral is useless if we don't get to draw them from the parable. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
brrr said: >FLCL WOOOOOOOOOW. In all seriously though, Fate/Zero is the first thing that comes to mind. There's a lot of "just Gods philosophizing about God stuff" scenes that don't really seem to serve any essential purpose. I dropped PP after a few episodes, but it was also a pretty big offender. Don't understand the S;G and Monogatari claims at all. Wow Two chars out of the entire cast talked about their views on the world.SOOOOO intellectual. Guimend said: I'd say Death Note,Steins Gate, Zetsuen no Tempest, Code Geass. With exception of Code Geass, they're good and very enjoyable, but isn't really intellectual stuff. Only for the entertainment value... I'm sure that someone has already mentioned them haha. How. Because it is scifi and tries to explain itself? |
| While I do think the show is massively overrated Steins;Gate isn't what I'd call pseudo intellectual. Sure they do a lot of bullshitting while explaining the time travel but it's not like it's some sort of secret they didn't want the audience to figure out. The technological babble is really just there to make it more entertaining. I'll fault the show for the awkwardly executed harem elements and the uninteresting supporting cast but Steins;Gate does sci-fi pretty well |
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| Steins;Gate? That show was amazing and not pseudo-intelligectual, it was full on amazing 10/10 intelligent Einstein mode. I get why people bash on anime, but when the anime is really good, e.g. good art and plotline, why bash? Of course the show was intelligent. It's one of those few anime shows that make people like me who are in a science related field to be happy/proud. |
| Kuroookoooooo-chin! |
| I liked how probably 95% of shows that could be deemed intellectual and thought-provoking whilst at the same time quite popular have resurfaced at some point in the thread. Now this makes me curious about any counter-arguments; can anybody pick just one show that he thinks is actually intellectual and is in no way pseudo-intellectual? |
Kuro-chin said: Do you see yourself as an objective arbiter for what is "good"?I get why people bash on anime, but when the anime is really good, e.g. good art and plotline, why bash? Of course the show was intelligent. It's one of those few anime shows that make people like me who are in a science related field to be happy/proud. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
elite-sama said: Psycho-Pass is pseudo-intellectual because it quoted a bunch of philosophers with no context as if they meant something. WHY did they do this. especially when the "genius" villain churned out all those random, philosophy 101 quotes caused me to give it a 9.6 instead of a 9.8 lol. they shoulda just left it as what i thought to be a highly-enjoyable action thriller |
elite-sama said: They had the opportunity to either destroy Sybil or change it, but decided that status quo and stability was better than change. The world of Psycho-pass wasn't exactly a dystopia; I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
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