ezikialrage said: Considering we're talking about protecting children in a school environment, in which children are rarely murdered by anyone, you're asking the wrong question. We should be asking: How many teachers, on occasion, go off at their class in an unprofessional way? How many jaded teachers are out there who treat teaching as "just another job"? The answer is a lot, or at least certainly non-negligible amount. Arming teachers is a horrible, horrible idea and I only touched on one of many possible reasons (ie. not actually being useful when the time comes, kids getting into them, ruining the precious school environment, furthering a culture of fear and distrust, etc.) How many murders of children and child molestation a year are attributed to their teachers? Do you got stats or links? ezikialrage said: This makes me so sad and confused. How fucked up are you that you'd consider someone a coward for not wanting to handle a weapon?Where do you live where most teachers are cowards who are too afraid of touching a firearm? |
JoshDec 18, 2012 3:55 PM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
SSJgoku91 said: jal90 said: The point with teachers is not that they are or not able to own a firearm. It's that bringing firearms to a school under any circumstance is so fucked up I can't consider how anybody with more than half a neuron would defend it. Not to mention a freaking teacher in a classroom with 20 kids. Got any reason for that? Other than an emotionally-fueled "it's fucked up". The mere existence of a gun at a school is a liability. Those children are much more likely to be killed by the weapon rather than saved by it. Same as with weapons in a home with children. There are accidental deaths all the time from children getting their hands on a weapon. |
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Post-Josh said: ]How many murders of children and child molestation a year are attributed to their teachers? Do you got stats or links? Considering we're talking about protecting children in a school environment, in which children are rarely murdered by anyone, you're asking the wrong question. We should be asking: How many teachers, on occasion, go off at their class in an unprofessional way? How many jaded teachers are out there who treat teaching as "just another job"? The answer is a lot, or at least certainly non-negligible amount. Honestly I don't think that many, at least not enough to be significant. And I seriously doubt teachers will start murdering kids just because they have guns. furthering a culture of fear and distrust, etc.) There is no need to pretend to kids that we live in a fairy-tale world where nothing bad happens (sorry soccer moms) they might as well learn about this stuff from a young age. This makes me so sad and confused. How fucked up are you that you'd consider someone a coward for not wanting to handle a weapon? Not necessarily a coward but I can't really think of any good reasons why not. But I don't know anyone in real life who doesn't own at least one gun. |
SSJgoku91 said: jal90 said: SSJgoku91 said: jal90 said: Security guards/police officers are qualified people who know well enough how to follow security protocols, among other things because that's their job. You can't and will never expect this level of sense from a teacher. And it also forgets that there will be several times during the day that the teacher will not be able to carry the gun with them, therefore leaving it exposed. Even if it's hidden it's not a matter to be 100% sure about. A security guard/police officer always carries the gun and takes care of it. True now, but I don't think requiring teachers and aspiring teachers to take a several-week training course of marksmanship and firearm safety would be too much to ask. I also don't think it should be limited to teachers but also other school staff such as administrators, nurses, counselors, janitors, etc. And that is the problem. To deal with a question that could be easily solved with more investment in the department of national security (e.g. putting police officers at the door entrances of the schools, so they can control if a suspecting individual introduces guns), people who not only are heavily trained but actually work at it, your solution instead is creating complicated programs of firearm safety for every public employer, and expecting that these programs can make up for the lack of experience and strategic training. What role does the security department fill, then? Is it just for show? Having a police officer at every school would probably be more expensive than a short training course for school staff, and it brings up other problems as well - an attacker could just kill the police officer and then he would have free reign over the school. Police are there for situations ordinary people are not able to handle, gang shootouts, investigation, hostage situations, making arrests, etc. They should not be our lone source of protection. You are assuming that the short training would be incredibly efficient, from what I see. Teaching them, not only about how to use the firearm, but how to take control in dangerous situations indirectly caused by its presence (if somebody steals it, if a kid accidentally breaks the safety catch), strategies to follow in every supposed case, etc. This requires years of training and you assume that every public employer is able to act like a fully prepared police officer with just that course. On the other hand, it is obviously possible that the police officer gets killed, but murdering somebody at the entry door of a school is not the same as murdering them inside a school. It leaves a much wider margin to avoid the eventual invasion and massacre (in this last case's example). Not to mention that police officers tend to establish a constant communication with their specific department, therefore being -supposedly- able to act fastly if something happens to one of them. And you are giving this example without taking into account that the exact same thing can happen inside the school, and is more likely to happen because the people there are not experienced in these situations. You are saying that one could murder the police officer but teachers are not exactly a more difficult objective. So in the end, what is the advantage of that system? |
SSJgoku91 said: This makes me so sad and confused. How fucked up are you that you'd consider someone a coward for not wanting to handle a weapon? Not necessarily a coward but I can't really think of any good reasons why not. But I don't know anyone in real life who doesn't own at least one gun.I've got a good reason, they don't want to use it to kill someone. |
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Narmy said: SSJgoku91 said: jal90 said: The point with teachers is not that they are or not able to own a firearm. It's that bringing firearms to a school under any circumstance is so fucked up I can't consider how anybody with more than half a neuron would defend it. Not to mention a freaking teacher in a classroom with 20 kids. Got any reason for that? Other than an emotionally-fueled "it's fucked up". The mere existence of a gun at a school is a liability. Those children are much more likely to be killed by the weapon rather than saved by it. Same as with weapons in a home with children. There are accidental deaths all the time from children getting their hands on a weapon. The teachers can keep the guns in a concealed holster, unless kids are reaching down the teacher's pants theres no reason they should be able to get their hands on it. |
Narmy said: SSJgoku91 said: This makes me so sad and confused. How fucked up are you that you'd consider someone a coward for not wanting to handle a weapon? Not necessarily a coward but I can't really think of any good reasons why not. But I don't know anyone in real life who doesn't own at least one gun.I've got a good reason, they don't want to use it to kill someone. If it's a person whose attacking or robbing you who cares? |
SSJgoku91 said: If it's a person whose attacking or robbing you who cares? Seriously? I guess it's not surprising that you're in favor of arming everybody, with such a callous disregard for human lives. |
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Narmy said: SSJgoku91 said: If it's a person whose attacking or robbing you who cares? Seriously? I guess it's not surprising that you're in favor of arming everybody, with such a callous disregard for human lives. Don't know about you but if it's me or them, I wanna go home that day. |
SSJgoku91 said: Narmy said: SSJgoku91 said: If it's a person whose attacking or robbing you who cares? Seriously? I guess it's not surprising that you're in favor of arming everybody, with such a callous disregard for human lives. Don't know about you but if it's me or them, I wanna go home that day. I'd rather we work to prevent the incidents from happening, rather than having everyone live in fear, which is what would happen if everyone had a gun. |
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How many murders of children and child molestation a year are attributed to their teachers? Do you got stats or links? Sexual abuse cases are not a rarity, if you would actually read the news for once. The point which you're trying to avoid, was that you have absolutely no idea what arming the wrong person could bring. There's also the issue of if some kid got the hold of the gun. Body armor will not stop certain rounds. Body armor is not really good at close range and even if the body army manages to stop the bullet from penetrating at close range it does not stop the force the bullet,so if you get hit will feel like someone hit your with a sledge hammer. Way to miss the point completely this time. I was talking of deterrents and how they do not work, and why preparing with body armour would indicate that. Where do you live where most teachers are cowards who are too afraid of touching a firearm? In reality, where we aren't try-hard 12 year olds who trivialize killing someone. Usual big-talk coming from the imagination of a redneck who has never been put in such a situation himself. Narmy said: Seriously? I guess it's not surprising that you're in favor of arming everybody, with such a callous disregard for human lives.  But seriously, the fact we're even having the argument makes me glad I wasn't born in the land of the free. Not to mention appreciate the lack of paranoia. |
TrapaliciousDec 18, 2012 4:29 PM
Trapalicious said: But seriously, the fact we're even having the argument makes me glad I wasn't born in the land of the free. Not to mention appreciate the lack of paranoia. Don't worry about it, you guys have got your own problems. With the blossoming muslim population by the time your grandkids are adults suicide bombings and terrorist attacks will be happening like clockwork. |
SSJgoku91 said: Trapalicious said: But seriously, the fact we're even having the argument makes me glad I wasn't born in the land of the free. Not to mention appreciate the lack of paranoia. Don't worry about it, you guys have got your own problems. With the blossoming muslim population by the time your grandkids are adults suicide bombings and terrorist attacks will be happening like clockwork. You're a racist too? That's... not surprising. |
InfiniteDec 18, 2012 4:54 PM
InfiniteRyvius said: SSJgoku91 said: Trapalicious said: But seriously, the fact we're even having the argument makes me glad I wasn't born in the land of the free. Not to mention appreciate the lack of paranoia. Don't worry about it, you guys have got your own problems. With the blossoming muslim population by the time your grandkids are adults suicide bombings and terrorist attacks will be happening like clockwork. You're a racist too? That's... not surprising. Not racist, just stating the facts. |
SSJgoku91 said: Not racist, just stating the facts. That's what they all say. |
| もののあはれ。。。 |
BlueOni said: SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: SSJgoku91 said: Trapalicious said: But seriously, the fact we're even having the argument makes me glad I wasn't born in the land of the free. Not to mention appreciate the lack of paranoia. Don't worry about it, you guys have got your own problems. With the blossoming muslim population by the time your grandkids are adults suicide bombings and terrorist attacks will be happening like clockwork. You're a racist too? That's... not surprising. Not racist, just stating the facts. That's what they all say. Muslims aren't a race so it's irrelevant to begin with. |
SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: SSJgoku91 said: Trapalicious said: But seriously, the fact we're even having the argument makes me glad I wasn't born in the land of the free. Not to mention appreciate the lack of paranoia. Don't worry about it, you guys have got your own problems. With the blossoming muslim population by the time your grandkids are adults suicide bombings and terrorist attacks will be happening like clockwork. You're a racist too? That's... not surprising. Not racist, just stating the facts. Facts you say? Tell me, when did you invent the time machine? Yes, Muslims are not a race, technically it is not racism, however you are discriminating against a group of people based on their religion. Happy? Also, it takes one instance where a teacher absent mindedly forgets a gun on a desk and a kids plays around with it for there to be a serious accident. Considering the number of teachers in America, even if there was only a 0.001% chance that any given time a teacher left a room he'd forget the gun in there with the kids, you'd still end up with several guns left unattended every month. A |
SSJgoku91 said: Don't worry about it, you guys have got your own problems. With the blossoming muslim population by the time your grandkids are adults suicide bombings and terrorist attacks will be happening like clockwork. |
InfiniteRyvius said: Not a guarantee, that's just one scenario that's likely to play out. Another is that as WW2 fades from memory Europeans will finally grow some balls, acknowledge that they are not compatible with their society, and have them relocated to other lands. Another (but probably unlikely) is that they'll largely become atheist like the rest of the population and be willing to adopt local customs and traditions, if that happens alls well but I'm not counting on it.Facts you say? Tell me, when did you invent the time machine? |
Trapalicious said: Is this some kind of meme now? |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: Is this some kind of meme now? No, I just find reading his posts along with his profile picture to be funny. |
Trapalicious said: BloodRequiem said: Trapalicious said: Is this some kind of meme now? No, I just find reading his posts along with his profile picture to be funny. That's his profile pic? Well now it all makes sense. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Trapalicious said: BloodRequiem said: Is this some kind of meme now? No, I just find reading his posts along with his profile picture to be funny. Yet probably know nothing about what the flag represents. |
BloodRequiem said: Trapalicious said: BloodRequiem said: Trapalicious said: Is this some kind of meme now? No, I just find reading his posts along with his profile picture to be funny. That's his profile pic? Well now it all makes sense. Dude, if that's your profile pic, you pretty much lose any argument that has anything to do with civil issues. |
 |
| Let's ban murder in general then. Have fun! ....oh wait. |
 Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Red_Keys said: BloodRequiem said: Trapalicious said: BloodRequiem said: Trapalicious said: Is this some kind of meme now? No, I just find reading his posts along with his profile picture to be funny. That's his profile pic? Well now it all makes sense. Dude, if that's your profile pic, you pretty much lose any argument that has anything to do with civil issues. You've been brainwashed by public education. |
| Obviously this dude is racist. Obviously. Muslim is not a race, but that's not how this works. People aren't against Islam in and of itself, they are against more people who fit their definition of Muslim, more people that "look like terrorists". |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
SSJgoku91 said: Maybe.You've been brainwashed by public education. I know that the Confederacy wasn't only about slavery, and doesn't automatically make you racist and ignorant. It was more about being more individualistic state-wise. They believed that the federal government had too much power over the states, and that is what the war was about. Slavery/racism was actually pretty minor. But I'm just saying that it is hard to take you seriously. |
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| I should change my profile picture to this: |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Post-Josh said: This dude just had to be a racist too, had to be. Muslim is not a race, but that's not how this works. People aren't against Islam in and of itself, they are against more people who fit their definition of Muslim, more people that "look like terrorists". Except I'm not a racist. I can't think of one other group that has as much trouble integrating into new societies as these people, and it's the same situation wherever they go be it Europe, Asia, North America. |
Red_Keys said: SSJgoku91 said: Maybe.You've been brainwashed by public education. I know that the Confederacy wasn't only about slavery, and doesn't automatically make you racist and ignorant. It was more about being more individualistic state-wise. They believed that the federal government had too much power over the states, and that is what the war was about. Slavery/racism was actually pretty minor. But I'm just saying that it is hard to take you seriously. I don't see what the problem is then. Most people posting my profile pic probably just think it means I hate black people or something. Makes me wonder if they think these guys hate black people too  |
| As for your picture, it's extremely possible to be self-hating. It's also extremely possible to be uneducated. SSJgoku91 said: Even if we simply racism into a yes or no question, which is an absurd oversimplification, you're still a "yes". You claim that an entire religious group are terrorists, you call them "these people" and "they" (as if they are all identical), and you make incorrect assumptions about Muslims all over the world not adapting to other cultures just as well as anyone else. Unless by "trouble integrating" you mean racists (especially in the US) having a hard time accepting them, in which case I would agree.Except I'm not a racist. I can't think of one other group that has as much trouble integrating into new societies as these people, and it's the same situation wherever they go be it Europe, Asia, North America. |
JoshDec 18, 2012 5:24 PM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Baman said: Tavor said: Yea, sadly, it's been illegal since 1866Let's ban murder in general then. Have fun! ....oh wait. Seems legit. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Post-Josh said: Unless by "trouble integrating" you mean racists (especially in the US) having a hard time accepting them, in which case I would agree. I don't. Everywhere they go, people want them out. Even Buddhist monks in Burma want them kicked out of their country, and it's no surprise. Everywhere they go they completely disregard local customs, making no attempt to adapt whatsoever, and will threaten things like terrorist attacks or even taking over the country when people call them out on it. Asians don't seem to have any trouble adapting to European/American societies, why can't muslims? |
SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: Not a guarantee, that's just one scenario that's likely to play out. Another is that as WW2 fades from memory Europeans will finally grow some balls, acknowledge that they are not compatible with their society, and have them relocated to other lands. Another (but probably unlikely) is that they'll largely become atheist like the rest of the population and be willing to adopt local customs and traditions, if that happens alls well but I'm not counting on it.Facts you say? Tell me, when did you invent the time machine? Another scenario is that they integrate into society and eventually we all come to accept one another. Isn't my one so much more poetic? |
InfiniteRyvius said: SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: Not a guarantee, that's just one scenario that's likely to play out. Another is that as WW2 fades from memory Europeans will finally grow some balls, acknowledge that they are not compatible with their society, and have them relocated to other lands. Another (but probably unlikely) is that they'll largely become atheist like the rest of the population and be willing to adopt local customs and traditions, if that happens alls well but I'm not counting on it.Facts you say? Tell me, when did you invent the time machine? Another scenario is that they integrate into society and eventually we all come to accept one another. Isn't my one so much more poetic? That's about the same as one I listed. |
SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: Not a guarantee, that's just one scenario that's likely to play out. Another is that as WW2 fades from memory Europeans will finally grow some balls, acknowledge that they are not compatible with their society, and have them relocated to other lands. Another (but probably unlikely) is that they'll largely become atheist like the rest of the population and be willing to adopt local customs and traditions, if that happens alls well but I'm not counting on it.Facts you say? Tell me, when did you invent the time machine? Another scenario is that they integrate into society and eventually we all come to accept one another. Isn't my one so much more poetic? That's about the same as one I listed. Well, you see, you think that but it's not really. What you said is that they will change to fit our society in all regards, what I said is that they will integrate, so they will follow many of our customs, but they will keep their religion, and we shall accept them for being Muslim, and they shall accept us for being heretics. Sweet isn't it? |
| SSJgoku91, acquire some education on racism. I don't know what else to say. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
InfiniteRyvius said: Well, you see, you think that but it's not really. What you said is that they will change to fit our society in all regards, what I said is that they will integrate, so they will follow many of our customs, but they will keep their religion, and we shall accept them for being Muslim, and they shall accept us for being heretics. Sweet isn't it? Islam in it's current form, is not compatible with our societies. The only way they could integrate while keeping their religion is for most of them to take up a 'watered-down' version of Islam, not unlike the current situation with most modern Christians. Where they only follow aspects of their choosing and ignore the rest. |
Post-Josh said: Right back at ya.SSJgoku91, acquire some education on racism. I don't know what else to say. |
SSJgoku91 said: InfiniteRyvius said: Well, you see, you think that but it's not really. What you said is that they will change to fit our society in all regards, what I said is that they will integrate, so they will follow many of our customs, but they will keep their religion, and we shall accept them for being Muslim, and they shall accept us for being heretics. Sweet isn't it? Islam in it's current form, is not compatible with our societies. The only way they could integrate while keeping their religion is for most of them to take up a 'watered-down' version of Islam, not unlike the current situation with most modern Christians. Where they only follow aspects of their choosing and ignore the rest. There is not one correct way of Islam, it is open to interpretation much like every other religion based on a holy book. They may choose take a different interpretation. In any case, many of their customs are impractical, but they are not impossible . |
| *Makes thread about gun control* >turns into a discussion about Muslims. *Makes thread about Muslims* I wonder what the result of that would be. |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Tavor said: The quality of public transportation?*Makes thread about gun control* >turns into a discussion about Muslims. *Makes thread about Muslims* I wonder what the result of that would be. |
|
Tavor said: *Makes thread about gun control* >turns into a discussion about Muslims. *Makes thread about Muslims* I wonder what the result of that would be. Whether or not Islamic gun users should be allowed to eat transsexual pork. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: lol I like that one better.Tavor said: *Makes thread about gun control* >turns into a discussion about Muslims. *Makes thread about Muslims* I wonder what the result of that would be. Whether or not Islamic gun users should be allowed to eat transsexual pork. |
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