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What did you think of this episode?
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Jul 6, 2013 4:52 PM
#121
ronri said: mayukachan said: And such a small plot didn't need so much time to be executed right. DaItalianFish said: that she was behind the murders, so there was zero twist. And it just seemed so weird. this basically HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My god am I laughing so hard right now! What's the funny part? |
Jul 6, 2013 4:55 PM
#122
mayukachan said: ronri said: mayukachan said: And such a small plot didn't need so much time to be executed right. DaItalianFish said: that she was behind the murders, so there was zero twist. And it just seemed so weird. this basically HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My god am I laughing so hard right now! What's the funny part? Sorry, I apologize but if I have to answer: everything. |
ronriJul 6, 2013 5:01 PM
Jul 6, 2013 4:56 PM
#123
ronri said: mayukachan said: ronri said: mayukachan said: And such a small plot didn't need so much time to be executed right. DaItalianFish said: that she was behind the murders, so there was zero twist. And it just seemed so weird. this basically HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My god am I laughing so hard right now! What's the funny part? Sorry, I apologize but if I have to answer: everything. Elaborate please :) |
Jul 6, 2013 4:58 PM
#124
mayukachan said: ronri said: mayukachan said: ronri said: mayukachan said: And such a small plot didn't need so much time to be executed right. DaItalianFish said: that she was behind the murders, so there was zero twist. And it just seemed so weird. this basically HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My god am I laughing so hard right now! What's the funny part? Sorry, I apologize but if I have to answer: everything. Elaborate please :) Well...... if you don't mind spoilers for this series, then.... |
Jul 6, 2013 5:01 PM
#125
@ronri: I know but the entire plot didn't really deserve an hour. It could have been shortened. |
Jul 6, 2013 5:03 PM
#126
mayukachan said: And such a small plot didn't need so much time to be executed right. DaItalianFish said: that she was behind the murders, so there was zero twist. And it just seemed so weird. this basically mayukachan said: @ronri: I know but the entire plot didn't really deserve an hour. It could have been shortened. Considering how well the film hid the character so well and no one seemed to notice.... okay then whatever you say.... |
Jul 6, 2013 5:04 PM
#127
ronri said: mayukachan said: And such a small plot didn't need so much time to be executed right. DaItalianFish said: that she was behind the murders, so there was zero twist. And it just seemed so weird. this basically mayukachan said: @ronri: I know but the entire plot didn't really deserve an hour. It could have been shortened. Okay then whatever you say.... LOL well, like I watched it with four of my friends today and they said the same thing. It was just too slow and a lot of the scenes were insignificant. Some dialogues were unnecessary as well. |
Jul 25, 2013 8:57 PM
#128
ninja88880 said: Running scene was dragged on for way too long, that ending knife to neck part as well. Also the music for when he was just camping outside of Shiki's house was not suited for it. I can tell what you're sort of getting at here, but allow me to explain why all of these work in the way they did. Firstly let's start with the last bit, since it actually becomes even more relevant in the other points. I noticed some people keep thinking that Mikiya was just camping outside because he was "stalking" Shiki, but many don't seem to realize that Mikiya is trying to prove her innocence despite Shiki's insistence that she's a killer. In that regard, that segment was treated as a very sweet moment. One might think that the romantic theme seems inappropriate since he's essentially waiting outside her house, but you ought to realize that his bizarre choice to essentially camp outside her house pales so much more in comparison to the potential idea that Shiki could be a killer. And it's not like he was doing it haphazardly, he obviously planned it to maintain his health, and this intended gesture on his part showed how much he cared for her despite her constant objections and blatant admittance to the crimes. In that regard the use of the main romance theme felt very appropriate here. Now as for the running scene, I don't know why you thought it that it dragged on considering how it barely lasted that long. It was there to maintain that complete sense dread and tension, and in comparison to the sweet and romantic montage of the camping scenes, the drawn-out yet isolated time frame of the running segment brought back that sense of reality in the danger that Mikiya had put himself through. Capping it off with the long-drawn segment of the ending knife scene made it all the more powerful as it maintained that aura of danger and ambiguity behind Shiki's mentality as well as keeping Mikiya's sense of tension. Overall I'd say those final scenes are what made this movie stand out the way it did, as it could've taken an easy route and provided a much more conventional ending to the narrative. |
ronriJul 25, 2013 9:01 PM
Jul 28, 2013 7:25 PM
#129
Once again very good. The art and sound are extremely good like in the sequel. One of the problems the prequel of this movie had were the characters, thankfully this installment has that covered. 8/10 |
Aug 23, 2013 2:33 AM
#130
25:04 ITADAKIMASU hmmm... 7/10 |
Isayama Hajime should be awarded The Manga with The Highest Inconsistencies of Characters' Appearances. He keeps performing multiple plastic surgeries on those Shingeki No Kyojin characters in a SINGLE chapter. Yes, I've read up to the latest chapter of Shingeki No Kyojin manga. Forced myself to read through the kidsketching chapters after the anime's ended. At least from now on, I only have to go through the hell once a month. Patiently awaiting SNK TV/movie/OVA anime-sequel. The 2015 SNK live-action movie would probably suck. |
Sep 8, 2013 8:38 PM
#131
This continues to be one of the most fascinating anime I've ever seen. The story is piece-meal (sort of) but I actually like this kind of thing where you have to watch the whole thing to see how all the pieces fit together. It is a bit confusing at first, but I find it very interesting. The art continues to be amazingly beautiful, especially the night shots of Shiki's house. I can't wait for part two of this arc. |
Nov 17, 2013 10:26 PM
#132
Once again, this has amazing animation and music. The mystery, horror, and suspense were incredibly strong and well done in this movie. Also, Shiki and Mikiya have one of the most interesting relationships I've seen in a long time. And, Shiki's pretty cute (well... when she doesn't brutally kill people, that is) ^__^ I wonder what the whole reason of Shiki killing people is? (Maybe it was explained and I just missed it? If it wasn't explained I'm sure it will be revealed later) I'm interested to see how the rest of the movies piece-together the whole story. |
Dec 10, 2013 3:30 PM
#134
It was interresting to see where Shiki come from. I guess she got all those prothesis from that car accident. I also like a lot character with double/numberous personality. After the first movie, I was skeptic about the second, but it turn out well. Also, Mikiya was so much deluded. I can say for sure if the killer of all these people was due to her, but everything seemed to point to her. I mean, even if she is innocent, it was pretty stupid to believe so much in her. |
«Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.» - Kurisu Makise a.k.a. The Zombie |
Mar 17, 2014 12:07 AM
#135
Slightly better than the first movie, lovely art, great story, pretty good seiyuu but the one thing that stands out the most is the music! I really really love it! 8/10 |
My DeviantArt and Pixiv and still waiting patiently for a 3rd season of Spice & Wolf :'| |
Mar 29, 2014 1:34 AM
#136
bouncebounce said: Very boring, how is this supposed to make you 'think' when it is so poorly written? The only good part of these films(so far) is the animation and soundtrack. 4/10 Poorly written in what way? Screenplay? Dialogue? Perhaps the exposition? (no really I'm curious) Part of this series of films' appeal isn't the fact that it's "supposed to make you think", but rather it's intricately constructed characters and masterfully-achieved brooding atmosphere (not an easy thing to come by nowadays and having a series of films with an overarching story is fairly unprecedented for the medium of anime). Personally while Movie 2 is certainly no huge highlight in the series (it is a part of a collective whole after all), I find that it's screenplay is great and put together rather well, even possibly more so than the dialogue so much so that I think it becomes secondary to the screenplay (especially the deceptive nature of the events that are told, all while never truly masking the truth except for those who don't have a careful eye). The dialogue is straightforward yes, though I do find it refreshing to see more introverted characters like Shiki and Mikiya actually interacting with each other in an introspective way so I personally appreciated that. |
ronriMar 29, 2014 2:01 AM
Mar 29, 2014 1:48 AM
#137
bouncebounce said: Very boring, how is this supposed to make you 'think' when it is so poorly written? The only good part of these films(so far) is the animation and soundtrack. 4/10 This isn't the most thinking intensive of the movies, rather this focuses on developing the watcher some feelings for the characters. And I think this does that rather well. Instead of looking for a mindfuck, you should have come looking for great directing and a masterfully done gloomy atmosphere that is pretty much the trademark of this series, and that separates it from many other anime. If you can't appreciate those, I can see you having extremely boring time. You could try going until Mujun Rasen because that is guaranteed to make you think, maybe even go; "what the hell did I just watch." It also has a few extremely beautiful action sequences. But I won't guarantee your enjoyment because you don't appreciate the aforementioned strenghts of KnK. |
cupcMar 29, 2014 1:55 AM
Mar 29, 2014 3:50 AM
#138
bouncebounce said: ronri said: Poorly written in what sense? Screenplay? Dialogue? Perhaps the exposition? Personally while Movie 2 is certainly no huge highlight in the series (it is a part of a collective whole after all), I find that it's screenplay is great and put together rather well, even possibly more so than the dialogue so much so that I think it becomes secondary to the screenplay (especially the deceptive nature of the events that are told, all while never truly masking the truth except for those who don't have a careful eye). The dialogue is straightforward yes, though I do find it refreshing to see more introverted characters like Shiki and Mikiya actually interacting with each other in an introspective way so I personally appreciated. Shiki and Mikaya are bland characters, with little development to no development. The deceptive nature of the events? The whole plot is predictable, almost non-existent with no intriguing aspects. There is no "masked truth" for the viewer, the film is displayed as though it was only produced to show off the animation. I personally found Shiki one of the best anime characters I know. I found time flying by while watching these movies. Again, these movies are an acquired taste. It doesn't have exciting twist and turns lurking around every corner, but I'd argue it doesn't need to have. I don't know why you are looking for this so called masked truth, but this certainly doesn't have one. In the end, this particular KnK movie tells a lovestory about a boy who falls to a girl so purely, that he against all signs doesn't want to believe she is a murderer. Notice how I said this particular. Some of the later movies are indeed full of plot twists. |
Mar 29, 2014 5:55 AM
#139
bouncebounce said: Shiki and Mikaya are bland characters, with little development to no development. Far from the truth. The word "bland" denotes to being devoid of any distinctive or stimulating characteristics, and I find this to be utterly false considering the very intricate yet stimulating nature of Shiki's very role and mentality as an anti-heroic female protagonist. Shiki undergoes a hefty amount of development and while Mikiya's is less subtle, it's definitely there. How you could come to that conclusion over an entry that only addresses their background history together without even finishing a series of films is beyond me. The following could be considered as spoilers for the rest of the series: From the highly introverted and anti-social child she was, to someone who comes to internalize her flaws, and finally as someone who gives room for herself and her wishes in the finale. From losing an aspect of her personality that had previously allowed her to remain idle in her mannerisms, she learns to connect by actually slowly engaging with Mikiya. Even Mikiya, while a lot more subtly, undergoes enough obstacles that would challenge or provoke his moral compass. Yes, he starts as a naive boy who's blinded by love, but he develops a more self-aware mindset regarding his actions, place and relationship with Shiki and in the finale, he ends up being the redemption that Shiki has been seeking in her entire life. bouncebounce said: The deceptive nature of the events? The whole plot is predictable, almost non-existent with no intriguing aspects. There is no "masked truth" for the viewer, the film is displayed as though it was only produced to show off the animation. Yes, the film depicts a romance between two introverted teens, but the underlying elements in the film serve in deceiving its audience from a particular aspect within the film. Do tell me, which part was predictable? I'm very curious to know now. The fact that we get a romance? The fact that Shiki is hinted to be the murderer? As an aside, do realize that predictability isn't always a flaw within works, as predictability often lends to a straightforward form of storytelling, and it can even play on people's expectations. |
ronriMar 29, 2014 7:24 AM
Apr 16, 2014 3:07 AM
#140
Liked this one a bit better than the first. The focus being on the characters this time around helped a lot and made the dialogue feel more genuine. Although I feel that the two personalities could have been handled better, I am at least curious to learn more about Shiki. I don't really like Mikaya and found his fixation with Shiki irritating. I can understand wanting to believe in someone you care about but good god, man. One thing that I do think the other movie did a little better was pacing. Maybe it was because this one was longer but there were several moments that just felt unnecessarily long. For example in the scene near the end where Shiki is about to slit Mikaya's throat, she calls his name and then the picture slowly zooms out for 30 seconds before she continues. Hopefully they also elaborate on the random student that passed Shiki in the hall, who accused her of being the killer. 7/10 |
Apr 16, 2014 4:03 AM
#141
gettogaara said: I don't really like Mikaya and found his fixation with Shiki irritating. I can understand wanting to believe in someone you care about but good god, man. Not sure about the subs if it's not clear enough (you did mention it before and I'll say right now that the most widely available fansubs tend to be spotty in some areas especially in Movies 6-7) but what I liked at the end is that Mikiya clears up that his feelings for her developed into something more than infatuation (unlike what he initially felt for her). In that regard his feelings are more of genuine care for someone he recognizes who needs help and doesn't possess any malice. All I'm gonna say is that, without spoiling it, Mikiya's efforts definitely pay off. gettogaara said: One thing that I do think the other movie did a little better was pacing. Maybe it was because this one was longer but there were several moments that just felt unnecessarily long. For example in the scene near the end where Shiki is about to slit Mikaya's throat, she calls his name and then the picture slowly zooms out for 30 seconds before she continues. Hopefully they also elaborate on the random student that passed Shiki in the hall, who accused her of being the killer. 7/10 I personally liked some of the lingering moments as it honestly reminded of me certain films I've seen (it's employed to give a sense of time and frame the atmosphere of a certain scene: be it to let the "calm" settle in certain moments or to create tension/an empty feeling). I do have to say I LOVED that last scene though, I honestly felt it created a sense of tension and making the scene linger on and cutting it with Shiki's line really nailed it for me, haha. That said, I applaud your attention to detail and you're already picking up little nuances and some of the foreshadowing that some people here seem to have missed or outright ignored. Keep it up! I hope you'll continue to have a pleasant experience watching the rest of the series! ^_^ (though I guess "pleasant" isn't exactly the best word given some of the grisly content within the series but hey it's part of the overall experience) |
Apr 19, 2014 7:31 PM
#142
I like it better than the first one and it felt more like a stand alone film than movie 1. Was not a huge fan of the ending though. |
Jun 27, 2014 6:00 AM
#143
This used to be my favouirte of this film series, but on a re-watch...a very flawed film, a whole lot of tension that ultimately resulted in answering no questions it posed. There was a lot of build up of the mystery and suspense initially - who is the killer? is it/isn't it shiki? why all the bizarrely arrayed corpses? then the mystery was tossed aside in favour of kokutou x shiki, but this was senseless as well. kokutou is an incredibly dull lead, a passive observer to shiki's craziness until he finally let's loose some character in the form of "I don't want to die". But this is completely dismissed. Suddenly oh, he totally forgave that. He doesn't understand it at all but wants to help shiki, this troublesome girl that wants to kill him and very nearly did! visiting her in the hospital, giving her flowers. as a character he makes no sense. he is almost an insert character. additionally, whatever happened to that skin sample the police got? and what about that guy that walked past shiki at school and told her to stop killing people? and what was the purpose of kokutou talking to that judo guy about how he feels about shiki? ("hmm, we need some way to tell the audience that kokutou does but he doesn't but he does but he doesn't maybe have feelings for shiki...i know, let's pick a random person from a club, randomly make them kokutou's friend just for this scene, and have them be bizarrely curious about kokutou and shiki's relationship" - film's writers). i can't remember, but the question bout that dude that new shiki was the murderer might be answered in later films. but these movies are designed with their own stand-alone plots that also contribute to the big picture. but this film, being the most detached from the other films (bar 6), has a plot that does little more than to give some basic background on shiki and to display what we saw in the opening of the first film, but for the entire duration of this film (aka shiki + kokutou's relationship. how this relationship began is ultimately of no consequence, when it is so easily established in the first film. a couple of flashbacks would have done the job this film did). all that said, the film had a nice atmosphere most of the time, and shiki herself is an interesting enough character so that kept the film at least entertaining. a shame it's not as good as i remember though. the end |
simo000Jun 27, 2014 6:07 AM
Jun 27, 2014 11:16 AM
#144
@BigSimo - Spoiler-tagging my reply to you so it doesn't clog up the page: BigSimo said: This used to be my favouirte of this film series, but on a re-watch...a very flawed film, a whole lot of tension that ultimately resulted in answering no questions it posed. The movie is literally called "Murder Speculation (Part 1)", meaning there's obviously a Part 2 where all of this gets answered. BigSimo said: There was a lot of build up of the mystery and suspense initially - who is the killer? is it/isn't it shiki? why all the bizarrely arrayed corpses? then the mystery was tossed aside in favour of kokutou x shiki, but this was senseless as well. Actually no, the mystery is very important and serves as the catalyst as to how Shiki develops as a person after the 2-year coma, it's literally the origin of how she came to adopt her "serial killer" persona. And no, the mystery isn't just "tossed aside" for the romance especially since both elements evidently intertwine to create a narrative that plays on many central themes found in the series (love, self-acceptance, fate vs. free-will etc.) Again, most of the loose threads in this film are resolved in the final film. BigSimo said: kokutou is an incredibly dull lead, a passive observer to shiki's craziness until he finally let's loose some character in the form of "I don't want to die". But this is completely dismissed. Suddenly oh, he totally forgave that. He doesn't understand it at all but wants to help shiki, this troublesome girl that wants to kill him and very nearly did! visiting her in the hospital, giving her flowers. as a character he makes no sense. he is almost an insert character. Actually no. Mikiya's development in this film is very subtle but it's still there. He starts out as a naive boy who falls head over heels for this girl that intrigued him. This is very obvious and he doesn't even realize it. The more he thought about it, the more he learned that it's not just out of infatuation that he grows to love Shiki and this is very much addressed at the end of the film when he realizes that, contrary to what his younger self had said, he actually has every reason to love her for the way she is. BigSimo said: additionally, whatever happened to that skin sample the police got? and what about that guy that walked past shiki at school and told her to stop killing people? Again, all in Part 2. BigSimo said: and what was the purpose of kokutou talking to that judo guy about how he feels about shiki? ("hmm, we need some way to tell the audience that kokutou does but he doesn't but he does but he doesn't maybe have feelings for shiki...i know, let's pick a random person from a club, randomly make them kokutou's friend just for this scene, and have them be bizarrely curious about kokutou and shiki's relationship" - film's writers). This may seem random but no it's not. The whole point of this highlights to the audience how Mikiya's view of Shiki isn't as readily apparent or obvious as any sort of typical teen-romance infatuation. He doesn't find Shiki interesting because of her status or because she's a scary "hawk". We literally learn that Mikiya recognizes something that not many people do, including Shiki herself: specifically, that Mikiya recognizes how Shiki is a very lonely person that tries to push everyone away from her (which was the whole point of his alluding to Shiki being like a "bunny"). Also the so-called "random person" isn't really that random when you consider how it's Mikiya's closest buddy (he has a name, it's Gakuto) and he actually shows up in Movies 3 and 7 to help out Mikiya in times of trouble (his role serves to highlight Mikiya's strengths and character faults as well as serving as a relay in terms of how the outside world perceives Mikiya). BigSimo said: i can't remember, but the question bout that dude that new shiki was the murderer might be answered in later films. but these movies are designed with their own stand-alone plots that also contribute to the big picture. but this film, being the most detached from the other films (bar 6), has a plot that does little more than to give some basic background on shiki and to display what we saw in the opening of the first film, but for the entire duration of this film (aka shiki + kokutou's relationship. how this relationship began is ultimately of no consequence, when it is so easily established in the first film. a couple of flashbacks would have done the job this film did). Highly disagree. Without this film, the entire point of Shiki and Mikiya's character arc (the two main characters) are rendered completely pointless. We see them as they are at first here: how they interact, how they get to know each other, how their friendship turns into a romance and how this romance becomes dangerous gamble of life and death. A bunch of flashbacks simply would not have gotten the job across. Slowly throughout the films we see how this early relationship changes, how Shiki grows warmer towards Mikiya, how her self-imposed mentality as a killer holds her back from reciprocating his feelings in its entirety. Mikiya's faithfulness gets a payoff as well, and it's this very aspect of his character that serves as the center piece of Shiki's attraction towards him and why she ends up the way she does by the end of the series. Also while yes, these films serve in telling their own stories, one can't easily dismiss the fact that this was constructed and released as a film series (literally released almost a month after another), not just a bunch of movies that occur in the same universe that happen to fall in some chronological order (like long-running Western film franchises). If anything, if we're going to be technical, Movies 1-3 should make up Volume 1, Movies 4-5 should make up Volume 2, and Movies 6-Epilogue should make up Volume 3. |
ronriJun 27, 2014 11:38 AM
Jun 27, 2014 9:45 PM
#145
Haha, I knew you'd promptly reply ronri. ronri said: @BigSimo - Spoiler-tagging my reply to you so it doesn't clog up the page: BigSimo said: This used to be my favouirte of this film series, but on a re-watch...a very flawed film, a whole lot of tension that ultimately resulted in answering no questions it posed. The movie is literally called "Murder Speculation (Part 1)", meaning there's obviously a Part 2 where all of this gets answered. Ok, fair point. But the tension the film created should have climaxed in this film. It half did with the whole Shiki almost killing Kokutou thing, but it wasn't enough considering what preceded it. You can't sustain tension over two films. You probably disagree, because you obviously enjoy the fuck out of these films whereas for me there's little to sustain my interest. But why divide this part of the story into two parts then, if the first part is going to be an unsatisfying watch. This part should have been tacked on to part two. The tension then would have had a proper and more exciting climax. For me this film was a whole lot of omg this is getting serious then....wait, that's it? BigSimo said: There was a lot of build up of the mystery and suspense initially - who is the killer? is it/isn't it shiki? why all the bizarrely arrayed corpses? then the mystery was tossed aside in favour of kokutou x shiki, but this was senseless as well. Actually no, the mystery is very important and serves as the catalyst as to how Shiki develops as a person after the 2-year coma, it's literally the origin of how she came to adopt her "serial killer" persona. And no, the mystery isn't just "tossed aside" for the romance especially since both elements evidently intertwine to create a narrative that plays on many central themes found in the series (love, self-acceptance, fate vs. free-will etc.) Again, most of the loose threads in this film are resolved in the final film. Is it ever explored as to why Shiki developed the persona? (This is not rhetorical, I just can't remember) When I say the mystery was tossed aside, I mean that the first third or so of the film is all about the killings. We are shown a few of the killings, a brief look at the police investigation, Shiki being edgy by painting her lips with the blood and smiling at the camera. And then it kind of fizzles out and the focus shifts to just Kokutou and Shiki, with brief "oh there was another killing" parts. Why begin the film with such a strong focus on the killings if you're film is ultimately not going to delve any deeper, not going to explore who was killed and why, and why not just show Shiki as the killer from the start instead of making it mysterious but then ultimately casually revealing that oh, yeah, it was Shiki by the way. Sure the overall mystery is ultimately revisited, but in a separate film! That's not how you structure your movie, even if it is part of a series of movies. Let's not forget the incredibly corny date sequence that actually happened, with the cliche date-sim girl-pose (where Shiki runs to a clothes shop, turns and looks at Kokutou with her hands behind her back - the number of times I've seen this in crappy harem shows...). BigSimo said: kokutou is an incredibly dull lead, a passive observer to shiki's craziness until he finally let's loose some character in the form of "I don't want to die". But this is completely dismissed. Suddenly oh, he totally forgave that. He doesn't understand it at all but wants to help shiki, this troublesome girl that wants to kill him and very nearly did! visiting her in the hospital, giving her flowers. as a character he makes no sense. he is almost an insert character. Actually no. Mikiya's development in this film is very subtle but it's still there. He starts out as a naive boy who falls head over heels for this girl that intrigued him. This is very obvious and he doesn't even realize it. The more he thought about it, the more he learned that it's not just out of infatuation that he grows to love Shiki and this is very much addressed at the end of the film when he realizes that, contrary to what his younger self had said, he actually has every reason to love her for the way she is. Ok, the developments are fair enough. But I don't buy Kokutou as a character. He falls head over heels, but he's so passive and one-note all the time that his developments, though they may be subtle, are uninteresting. His denial/total forgiveness of Shiki as a serial killer is illogical. Perhaps I'd appreciate it more if Type-Moon didn't take themselves so seriously then throw in that horrific date sequence (yes I'm referencing that again). This is all me trying to put words to why I find Kokutou a very dull male lead. Sure he develops, maybe his actions are logical, but I just don't care enough because he is some harem-lead looking character with glasses with a lack of defining, or perhaps exciting/interesting, characteristics. BigSimo said: additionally, whatever happened to that skin sample the police got? and what about that guy that walked past shiki at school and told her to stop killing people? Again, all in Part 2. BigSimo said: and what was the purpose of kokutou talking to that judo guy about how he feels about shiki? ("hmm, we need some way to tell the audience that kokutou does but he doesn't but he does but he doesn't maybe have feelings for shiki...i know, let's pick a random person from a club, randomly make them kokutou's friend just for this scene, and have them be bizarrely curious about kokutou and shiki's relationship" - film's writers). This may seem random but no it's not. The whole point of this highlights to the audience how Mikiya's view of Shiki isn't as readily apparent or obvious as any sort of typical teen-romance infatuation. He doesn't find Shiki interesting because of her status or because she's a scary "hawk". We literally learn that Mikiya recognizes something that not many people do, including Shiki herself: specifically, that Mikiya recognizes how Shiki is a very lonely person that tries to push everyone away from her (which was the whole point of his alluding to Shiki being like a "bunny"). Also the so-called "random person" isn't really that random when you consider how it's Mikiya's closest buddy (he has a name, it's Gakuto) and he actually shows up in Movies 3 and 7 to help out Mikiya in times of trouble (his role serves to highlight Mikiya's strengths and character faults as well as serving as a relay in terms of how the outside world perceives Mikiya). Ok, good point about the bunny thing. I'd forgotten about that. Kokutou's interest in her is justified. Right, I've clearly forgotten about this Gakuto dude being in the other films. That is fine, then. BigSimo said: i can't remember, but the question bout that dude that new shiki was the murderer might be answered in later films. but these movies are designed with their own stand-alone plots that also contribute to the big picture. but this film, being the most detached from the other films (bar 6), has a plot that does little more than to give some basic background on shiki and to display what we saw in the opening of the first film, but for the entire duration of this film (aka shiki + kokutou's relationship. how this relationship began is ultimately of no consequence, when it is so easily established in the first film. a couple of flashbacks would have done the job this film did). Highly disagree. Without this film, the entire point of Shiki and Mikiya's character arc (the two main characters) are rendered completely pointless. We see them as they are at first here: how they interact, how they get to know each other, how their friendship turns into a romance and how this romance becomes dangerous gamble of life and death. A bunch of flashbacks simply would not have gotten the job across. Slowly throughout the films we see how this early relationship changes, how Shiki grows warmer towards Mikiya, how her self-imposed mentality as a killer holds her back from reciprocating his feelings in its entirety. Mikiya's faithfulness gets a payoff as well, and it's this very aspect of his character that serves as the center piece of Shiki's attraction towards him and why she ends up the way she does by the end of the series. Fair enough. I still think this film is weak on its own. This part should have been included with its part two, or it needed a stronger climax, or just a stronger link between the serial killings and how Kokutou came into play. Also while yes, these films serve in telling their own stories, one can't easily dismiss the fact that this was constructed and released as a film series (literally released almost a month after another), not just a bunch of movies that occur in the same universe that happen to fall in some chronological order (like long-running Western film franchises). If anything, if we're going to be technical, Movies 1-3 should make up Volume 1, Movies 4-5 should make up Volume 2, and Movies 6-Epilogue should make up Volume 3. True enough. As a whole it works. The way it was released works. The films are still very much bent on self-contained stories with a setup up and a conclusion. So I think of them as I would any film in that sense. It's not a flawed system, but if the individual plots themselves are lacking...well that's how I feel anyway. To be honest Type-Moon stuff has never done anything for me. Their stuff is always filled with uninteresting magic mumbo jumbo that makes no sense unless you're fanboy enough to the read hte visual novels, and even then there's a shitload of jargon and timelines and complex world-traits that you need to learn. Additionally, I don't like their character designs (some pupils in those eyes would be nice people). There, you have my reasoning on that. |
simo000Jun 27, 2014 9:55 PM
Jun 28, 2014 1:18 AM
#146
@BigSimo: Thanks for replying very civilly while addressing each of my points, if I came off as being too confrontational then I apologize. >_< Anyway, spoiler-tagging for convenience: BigSimo said: Ok, fair point. But the tension the film created should have climaxed in this film. It half did with the whole Shiki almost killing Kokutou thing, but it wasn't enough considering what preceded it. You can't sustain tension over two films. You probably disagree, because you obviously enjoy the fuck out of these films whereas for me there's little to sustain my interest. But why divide this part of the story into two parts then, if the first part is going to be an unsatisfying watch. This part should have been tacked on to part two. The tension then would have had a proper and more exciting climax. For me this film was a whole lot of omg this is getting serious then....wait, that's it? Actually the whole point of the film is to keep the tension entirely on Shiki, while you might disagree, I think it succeeded in conceiving a perfect climax in that regard. It caused me to view Shiki in a different light and I wasn't at ease with her character especially during Movie 3 (especially since Movie 3 plays on a very grey balance of morality). In this regard, the whole point amounted to exactly where I felt the narrative was going for, in which Shiki is "revealed" to be the serial killer. The tension was always left up in the air the moment you realize that this is the first in terms of chronology, especially considering how we know that Shiki still holds those murderous urges throughout the other films. Just because because I said that they divided certain plot elements into two films it doesn't immediately make for an unsatisfying watch with little payoff, as I find that Movie 2 is anything but unsatisfying in the grand scheme of the series. Is it ever explored as to why Shiki developed the persona? (This is not rhetorical, I just can't remember) If you paid attention then yes (and I don't mean any offense by this so I apologize if it comes across that way), the way in which Shiki developed this persona is explored throughout the films and most especially through this film. It's very evident that Shiki already possesses a fragmented mind with two personalities, and as the film shows, she possesses a murderous urge because of this. The way she develops her serial killer persona is literally handled in this film, how she balances between developing feelings for Mikiya while being blindly intoxicated by the murders in front of her is literally the beginning of it all. While Shiki's development into this self-imposed persona is shown here, the method behind Shiki's madness isn't readily apparent until the final film where it explores the finality of how Shiki's state of mind spiraled beyond her control. When I say the mystery was tossed aside, I mean that the first third or so of the film is all about the killings. We are shown a few of the killings, a brief look at the police investigation, Shiki being edgy by painting her lips with the blood and smiling at the camera. And then it kind of fizzles out and the focus shifts to just Kokutou and Shiki, with brief "oh there was another killing" parts. Why begin the film with such a strong focus on the killings if you're film is ultimately not going to delve any deeper, not going to explore who was killed and why, and why not just show Shiki as the killer from the start instead of making it mysterious but then ultimately casually revealing that oh, yeah, it was Shiki by the way. Sure the overall mystery is ultimately revisited, but in a separate film! That's not how you structure your movie, even if it is part of a series of movies. Except that's not how it was structured at all. Talking about this will border on spoiler-territory for Movie 7 so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but this whole film was always more of a character piece for Mikiya and Shiki. The mystery served as a build-up of Shiki's character. What, do we really want another detective story? Should we really focus on Daisuke's investigation? The whole story operates with a natural progression based on the highlighted events, most notably from Shiki and Mikiya's perspective, both of which are purposely avoiding the mystery while being entangled with it due to Shiki being the center point of it all. The narrative plays on the idea that Mikiya is taking a huge gamble, all odds stacked against him. The tension is derived from whether or not Shiki being the killer is actually true, and very much so, she turns out to be a homicidal person by the end and there's no denying that. You say that the film began with the murders and yet, the film actually began with Shiki and Mikiya's first meeting, TWICE even before the first murder had occurred. Let's not forget the incredibly corny date sequence that actually happened, with the cliche date-sim girl-pose (where Shiki runs to a clothes shop, turns and looks at Kokutou with her hands behind her back - the number of times I've seen this in crappy harem shows...). Subjective, just because you found it distasteful, it doesn't mean it immediately was, especially since the directorial quality of that sequence was sound and the purpose of it was that it showed the drastic shift in Shiki's personality and how the film shows that she's able to actually enjoy her time with Mikiya contrary to what she usually claims or acts upon (which in this case, the movie succeeded in getting that point across). Ok, the developments are fair enough. But I don't buy Kokutou as a character. He falls head over heels, but he's so passive and one-note all the time that his developments, though they may be subtle, are uninteresting. His denial/total forgiveness of Shiki as a serial killer is illogical. Perhaps I'd appreciate it more if Type-Moon didn't take themselves so seriously then throw in that horrific date sequence (yes I'm referencing that again). Personally I find Mikiya's passive honesty and open-minded frankness as a rarity in its own right. The level of subtlety in his writing is a refreshing change from the common exclamations and blatantly-bombastic depictions of other male protagonists found in many other shows. You might find him uninteresting but I honestly think that much of the series hinges on his very nature as a passive character. Heck, it's literally part of the point of Shiki's entire character arc, writing him off while praising Shiki is literally contradictory when part of her development and characterization is complemented by Mikiya's personality and mannerism as a character.This is all me trying to put words to why I find Kokutou a very dull male lead. Sure he develops, maybe his actions are logical, but I just don't care enough because he is some harem-lead looking character with glasses with a lack of defining, or perhaps exciting/interesting, characteristics. That's your own fault not the film's. Mikiya is no "harem-lead" and the fact that you're judging him under such a biased perception is exactly why you're probably having a hard time stomaching him at all. Fair enough. I still think this film is weak on its own. This part should have been included with its part two, or it needed a stronger climax, or just a stronger link between the serial killings and how Kokutou came into play. I respectfully disagree. Part of what made me enjoy this film is that it already put a lot of attention and made me wary of Shiki in the following films. The fact that it establishes these elements are key and instrumental in deceiving the audience so as to subvert their expectations when the final film plays out, and it's the build-up created in this film that makes the 7th film that much more of a payoff. To be honest Type-Moon stuff has never done anything for me. Their stuff is always filled with uninteresting magic mumbo jumbo that makes no sense unless you're fanboy enough to the read hte visual novels, and even then there's a shitload of jargon and timelines and complex world-traits that you need to learn. Additionally, I don't like their character designs (some pupils in those eyes would be nice people). There, you have my reasoning on that. Except you're talking to the wrong person if you think I'm an average Type-Moon fan. I'm a Kara no Kyoukai fan first, and Type-Moon fan second (and that's already bending it considering I have a hard time calling myself an actual fan). I came into this film series with little to no knowledge of Type-Moon and I managed to understand a lot of the conventions and ideas it tried to convey which, contrary to how you describe it as "uninteresting mumbo jumbo", actually bears some purposeful meaning in how it references real-life philosophies, plays and twists existing religious concepts, while reinventing known tropes/ideas in supernatural fiction. Which makes sense because a) Nasu claimed that he based a lot of ideas on his world-knowledge when writing KNK and b) this is literally based on their first published work before the "Nasuverse" was established. Again, you don't have to wave it off as "oh it's because it's Type-Moon" to tell me why I like it or why you didn't like it. You can tell me that without all that Type-Moon baggage, especially considering that I'm the farthest thing from being a loyal fan of the entire Type-Moon franchise (only KNK gets all my love thank you very much). So yeah, we can agree to disagree on certain parts but please don't use this reasoning since it's hardly applicable in my case (or arguably, for KNK's case since it's not reliant on other Type-Moon works). |
ronriJun 28, 2014 1:57 AM
Jun 29, 2014 7:25 PM
#147
Awesome, Outstanding visuals and that ending song is so catchy. 8/10 nice film |
Recommend me an anime |
Jul 2, 2014 3:55 PM
#148
bouncebounce said: ronri said: Yes, the film depicts a romance between two introverted teens, but the underlying elements in the film serve in deceiving its audience from a particular aspect within the film. Do tell me, which part was predictable? I'm very curious to know now. The fact that we get a romance? The fact that Shiki is hinted to be the murderer? As an aside, do realize that predictability isn't always a flaw within works, as predictability often lends to a straightforward form of storytelling, and it can even play on people's expectations. You answered your own question. I expected a well-written plot however it was far too linear, resulting in limited entertainment value. While I do agree that predictability isn't always a flaw, in the case of this film, it definitely is. Except my questions were not rhetorical, since I was purposefully avoiding certain plot threads by asking only the most basic of questions. I'm being genuinely sincere in my questions here and if I come across as patronizing then I apologize. Judging by your "Completed" list, I can see that you've only watched the first two movies. The reason I asked about what you found to be predictable, is because finishing only up to the 2nd film doesn't really say much considering the major payoff of the plot (i.e. the resulting outcome and the point of the buildup of Movies 1-4) only actually occur within Movies 5 and 7. While yes, there are certainly predictable elements within this film, other parts of it remain untouched until the very last film. Do realize this is still a series only that it's COMPRISED of films, not necessarily a series of films with 100%-completely self-contained stories like many Western film series out there. There's a very strong reason why this film is given the episode title "Murder Speculation (Part 1)" and I don't think I need to spell out why it's titled as such when you consider how the chronological placement of its "2nd part" indicates that there is far more to the plot than what you might have just witnessed. Again, its hard to take your word on the notion of "predictability" unless you explain what you found to be predictable or have already watched the whole series, especially since this film is the first in terms of chronology in the timeline (literally the backstory of the main characters), and as an entry, literally the farthest from serving any sense of finality in terms of the series' overall story and its characters. |
ronriJul 2, 2014 4:47 PM
Jul 3, 2014 4:08 AM
#149
Yo, sorry for the delay. ronri said: BigSimo said: Ok, fair point. But the tension the film created should have climaxed in this film. It half did with the whole Shiki almost killing Kokutou thing, but it wasn't enough considering what preceded it. You can't sustain tension over two films. You probably disagree, because you obviously enjoy the fuck out of these films whereas for me there's little to sustain my interest. But why divide this part of the story into two parts then, if the first part is going to be an unsatisfying watch. This part should have been tacked on to part two. The tension then would have had a proper and more exciting climax. For me this film was a whole lot of omg this is getting serious then....wait, that's it? Actually the whole point of the film is to keep the tension entirely on Shiki, while you might disagree, I think it succeeded in conceiving a perfect climax in that regard. It caused me to view Shiki in a different light and I wasn't at ease with her character especially during Movie 3 (especially since Movie 3 plays on a very grey balance of morality). In this regard, the whole point amounted to exactly where I felt the narrative was going for, in which Shiki is "revealed" to be the serial killer. The tension was always left up in the air the moment you realize that this is the first in terms of chronology, especially considering how we know that Shiki still holds those murderous urges throughout the other films. Just because because I said that they divided certain plot elements into two films it doesn't immediately make for an unsatisfying watch with little payoff, as I find that Movie 2 is anything but unsatisfying in the grand scheme of the series. Ok, so from the sounds of it I really need to press on with re-watching the rest of the films. In any case I respect your opinions on this film completely, because it's clear that you had a great time watching it, and you've gone well in-depth analyzing all the films. Is it ever explored as to why Shiki developed the persona? (This is not rhetorical, I just can't remember) If you paid attention then yes (and I don't mean any offense by this so I apologize if it comes across that way), the way in which Shiki developed this persona is explored throughout the films and most especially through this film. It's very evident that Shiki already possesses a fragmented mind with two personalities, and as the film shows, she possesses a murderous urge because of this. The way she develops her serial killer persona is literally handled in this film, how she balances between developing feelings for Mikiya while being blindly intoxicated by the murders in front of her is literally the beginning of it all. While Shiki's development into this self-imposed persona is shown here, the method behind Shiki's madness isn't readily apparent until the final film where it explores the finality of how Shiki's state of mind spiraled beyond her control. That's fair enough, I look forward to watching the final film again. Because the main thing that bugged me throughout this was why she was just killing randoms, and so brutally. When I say the mystery was tossed aside, I mean that the first third or so of the film is all about the killings. We are shown a few of the killings, a brief look at the police investigation, Shiki being edgy by painting her lips with the blood and smiling at the camera. And then it kind of fizzles out and the focus shifts to just Kokutou and Shiki, with brief "oh there was another killing" parts. Why begin the film with such a strong focus on the killings if you're film is ultimately not going to delve any deeper, not going to explore who was killed and why, and why not just show Shiki as the killer from the start instead of making it mysterious but then ultimately casually revealing that oh, yeah, it was Shiki by the way. Sure the overall mystery is ultimately revisited, but in a separate film! That's not how you structure your movie, even if it is part of a series of movies. Except that's not how it was structured at all. Talking about this will border on spoiler-territory for Movie 7 so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but this whole film was always more of a character piece for Mikiya and Shiki. The mystery served as a build-up of Shiki's character. What, do we really want another detective story? Should we really focus on Daisuke's investigation? The whole story operates with a natural progression based on the highlighted events, most notably from Shiki and Mikiya's perspective, both of which are purposely avoiding the mystery while being entangled with it due to Shiki being the center point of it all. I suppose it's a balance issue for me then. I was led to believe that the film would take more of detective route - for better or for worse - simply because of how we were shown the killings, then the scene of the crime, especially that classic detective film scene where we first meet Mikiya's uncle/cousin/whoever he is. But this is a contentious thing. It could be argued that they all directly related to what the film was actually about - Mikiya and Shiki - because the detective/mikiya's relation is the one that gives mikiya info leading him to suspect shiki, and as you say, the murder scenes served to build up shiki's character. BUT, while watching the film, this was not how I felt. idk, this could just be me, but it didn't feel as natural a progression to me as it did to you. The narrative plays on the idea that Mikiya is taking a huge gamble, all odds stacked against him. The tension is derived from whether or not Shiki being the killer is actually true, and very much so, she turns out to be a homicidal person by the end and there's no denying that. You say that the film began with the murders and yet, the film actually began with Shiki and Mikiya's first meeting, TWICE even before the first murder had occurred. true enough, i'd forgotten about the opening scene. Let's not forget the incredibly corny date sequence that actually happened, with the cliche date-sim girl-pose (where Shiki runs to a clothes shop, turns and looks at Kokutou with her hands behind her back - the number of times I've seen this in crappy harem shows...). Subjective, just because you found it distasteful, it doesn't mean it immediately was, especially since the directorial quality of that sequence was sound and the purpose of it was that it showed the drastic shift in Shiki's personality and how the film shows that she's able to actually enjoy her time with Mikiya contrary to what she usually claims or acts upon (which in this case, the movie succeeded in getting that point across). ok this is one thing I won't let slide, because I laughed and face palmed when this sequence happened. you can show the drastic shift in shiki's personality while still maintaining the film's mood/atmosphere, and while avoiding harem/date-sim cliches. i understood what it was going for, but execution-wise it was sloppy and it felt to me that it served an ulterior purpose (moe-fying Shiki - you can argue with me at this, but the fact that it played out like a date-sim is evidence enough for me). Ok, the developments are fair enough. But I don't buy Kokutou as a character. He falls head over heels, but he's so passive and one-note all the time that his developments, though they may be subtle, are uninteresting. His denial/total forgiveness of Shiki as a serial killer is illogical. Perhaps I'd appreciate it more if Type-Moon didn't take themselves so seriously then throw in that horrific date sequence (yes I'm referencing that again). Personally I find Mikiya's passive honesty and open-minded frankness as a rarity in its own right. The level of subtlety in his writing is a refreshing change from the common exclamations and blatantly-bombastic depictions of other male protagonists found in many other shows. You might find him uninteresting but I honestly think that much of the series hinges on his very nature as a passive character. Heck, it's literally part of the point of Shiki's entire character arc, writing him off while praising Shiki is literally contradictory when part of her development and characterization is complemented by Mikiya's personality and mannerism as a character.True, Mikiya is not your typical protagonist. His passiveness does slot in well to the series. From memory I really liked him by the end of the series, and was rooting for him and all that. So yeah, I'll see how it goes. This is all me trying to put words to why I find Kokutou a very dull male lead. Sure he develops, maybe his actions are logical, but I just don't care enough because he is some harem-lead looking character with glasses with a lack of defining, or perhaps exciting/interesting, characteristics. That's your own fault not the film's. Mikiya is no "harem-lead" and the fact that you're judging him under such a biased perception is exactly why you're probably having a hard time stomaching him at all. I didn't mean he is a harem-lead-like character, just that his character design is kind of generic/plain. but this is just me nitpicking, you can ignore it. Fair enough. I still think this film is weak on its own. This part should have been included with its part two, or it needed a stronger climax, or just a stronger link between the serial killings and how Kokutou came into play. I respectfully disagree. Part of what made me enjoy this film is that it already put a lot of attention and made me wary of Shiki in the following films. The fact that it establishes these elements are key and instrumental in deceiving the audience so as to subvert their expectations when the final film plays out, and it's the build-up created in this film that makes the 7th film that much more of a payoff. again, i'll just have to wait til i've re-watched the rest of the films. so you can ignore my feelings on this aspect To be honest Type-Moon stuff has never done anything for me. Their stuff is always filled with uninteresting magic mumbo jumbo that makes no sense unless you're fanboy enough to the read hte visual novels, and even then there's a shitload of jargon and timelines and complex world-traits that you need to learn. Additionally, I don't like their character designs (some pupils in those eyes would be nice people). There, you have my reasoning on that. Except you're talking to the wrong person if you think I'm an average Type-Moon fan. I'm a Kara no Kyoukai fan first, and Type-Moon fan second (and that's already bending it considering I have a hard time calling myself an actual fan). I came into this film series with little to no knowledge of Type-Moon and I managed to understand a lot of the conventions and ideas it tried to convey which, contrary to how you describe it as "uninteresting mumbo jumbo", actually bears some purposeful meaning in how it references real-life philosophies, plays and twists existing religious concepts, while reinventing known tropes/ideas in supernatural fiction. Which makes sense because a) Nasu claimed that he based a lot of ideas on his world-knowledge when writing KNK and b) this is literally based on their first published work before the "Nasuverse" was established. Sorry, my type-moon rant there wasn't aimed at you so much. I was just giving additional info as to why I might, simply, not like these films a great deal. I've found - and I guess this is more in the fate/zero and fate/staynight stuff - that the grimdark atmosphere and weird magic (a lot of which goes unexplained) and obsession with knives and such. Garden of Sinners is thankfully a bit different, and its grimdark atmosphere is handled better (though i have a feeling that rape scene in the next film is going to make me cringe more than anything), and the fight scenes and magic is cool as hell which means most of the time i don't even care how they're able to do what they do. it isn't my kind of fiction, as i'm sure you've gathered by now, but there's a lot i like about it. and i can't wait to get around to the 5th and 7th films, which i remember liking more than the others.[/quote] |
Jul 3, 2014 11:26 AM
#150
@BigSimo- Spoiler-tagging again~ BigSimo said: Yo, sorry for the delay. No problem! Honestly I appreciate the effort you're making by trying to reply to me in proper. Ok, so from the sounds of it I really need to press on with re-watching the rest of the films. In any case I respect your opinions on this film completely, because it's clear that you had a great time watching it, and you've gone well in-depth analyzing all the films. I won't say this film is what I consider to be the best in the series (my ratings are enough indication that Movies 5 and 7 are my absolute favorites) but I do think it does well in setting up some of the most important pieces in the overall story and for that, I think it's one of the most crucial ones (not the "best", but "crucial" in that it's very important to the overall story). That's fair enough, I look forward to watching the final film again. Because the main thing that bugged me throughout this was why she was just killing randoms, and so brutally. Thanks for considering my points. Yeah, without spoiling much, the final film really subverts a lot of the expectations and ideas established in this film, and the purpose of the murders are definitely not random as revealed in the final film. I should say that the most widely available fansubs out there (gg-TakaJun subs) aren't the most reliable for the 7th film, especially since it makes lots of translation errors. If you ever need a good translation for the 7th film, I can recommend you a group (just PM me if you're interested). I suppose it's a balance issue for me then. I was led to believe that the film would take more of detective route - for better or for worse - simply because of how we were shown the killings, then the scene of the crime, especially that classic detective film scene where we first meet Mikiya's uncle/cousin/whoever he is. But this is a contentious thing. It could be argued that they all directly related to what the film was actually about - Mikiya and Shiki - because the detective/mikiya's relation is the one that gives mikiya info leading him to suspect shiki, and as you say, the murder scenes served to build up shiki's character. BUT, while watching the film, this was not how I felt. idk, this could just be me, but it didn't feel as natural a progression to me as it did to you. Hey that's fair enough and I can see your reasoning here and now I can understand why you felt the way you did. Rather, looking back on the series, I did feel that the decision to focus on the romance was for the better, else the final film wouldn't feel as impacting as it did if the series barely focused on Shiki and Mikiya's relationship in this film. Back then I'll admit when I first watched the second film I thought it was great but not necessarily exceptional. However, after watching it again with 7th film in mind, I noticed certain details I missed back then and it made me appreciate this film even more in terms of the way it handled the plot. ok this is one thing I won't let slide, because I laughed and face palmed when this sequence happened. you can show the drastic shift in shiki's personality while still maintaining the film's mood/atmosphere, and while avoiding harem/date-sim cliches. i understood what it was going for, but execution-wise it was sloppy and it felt to me that it served an ulterior purpose (moe-fying Shiki - you can argue with me at this, but the fact that it played out like a date-sim is evidence enough for me). Fair enough, and we can agree to disagree on this. Personally, I never saw a problem with it. I thought that the idea of "moe-fying" Shiki wasn't of poor taste. Yyes it might seem like fanservice, but the thought barely crossed my mind considering the boyish mannerisms she displayed actually drew my interest in terms how why she's the way she did in the mall out of nowhere compared to her more subdued personality. Personally I thought that portraying her second personality as being a tomboy yet outwardly playful person actually served in creating for a darker contrast when the mood finally got serious as the film went on. I thought it did well in lowering the guard of the viewer by making Shiki out to be this starry-eyed teenager (which isn't far from the truth considering how fond the personality of SHIKI is towards Mikiya, actually) and later subverting those "anime cliches" by shifting the tone drastically into a darker one, thereby allowing the horrible reality of Shiki's violent tendencies to dawn on Mikiya when he's literally chased down by her. I especially liked this sequence because it felt appropriate given how naive Mikiya was when he was younger as well as to illustrate the kind of blissful days they spent together before everything got worse. True, Mikiya is not your typical protagonist. His passiveness does slot in well to the series. From memory I really liked him by the end of the series, and was rooting for him and all that. So yeah, I'll see how it goes. Yes he might seem dumb in this movie (which makes sense since he was definitely more naive in this film), but I felt that as the story progressed, he's grown to be far more mature and considerate in his actions. It's not like he acts based on some self-righteous moral scale, if anything he's simply polite and it's that passive quality that tends to mask his actual motives/feelings as a character. I didn't mean he is a harem-lead-like character, just that his character design is kind of generic/plain. but this is just me nitpicking, you can ignore it. Haha fair enough, my apologies for the mistake then. Admittedly I actually really like his design. Simple as it may seem, the subdued colors of blue hues and predominant black really helps in exemplifying the idea behind his character, and it's one of the reasons why I personally like how he's designed. Sorry, my type-moon rant there wasn't aimed at you so much. I was just giving additional info as to why I might, simply, not like these films a great deal. I've found - and I guess this is more in the fate/zero and fate/staynight stuff - that the grimdark atmosphere and weird magic (a lot of which goes unexplained) and obsession with knives and such. Honestly, Type-Moon's stuff barely ever attracted me until Kara no Kyoukai. It's the first time where I felt that the ideas used actually made sense and it's referential quality as a work that uses various philosophy is what made me appreciate it above other Type Moon works. This might surprise you but, while I appreciate aspects of Fate/Zero (the anti-hero deconstruction and the pre-dominance of urban fantasy tropes in particular), I was never that fond of the rules and ideas of a lot of stuff in the Fate universe, so we can actually agree in that regard (I have a hard time taking something entirely seriously when the plot relies on such an arbitrary rule system that bears any little thematic significance or symbolic meaning in its design). Garden of Sinners is thankfully a bit different, and its grimdark atmosphere is handled better (though i have a feeling that rape scene in the next film is going to make me cringe more than anything), and the fight scenes and magic is cool as hell which means most of the time i don't even care how they're able to do what they do. I won't lie, and I know that some Type-Moon fans might kill me for this, but I personally I find some of the grimdark qualities of other Type Moon works to be amateurish or misguided in some respects (be it execution or the level of mature content in the work). It was only ever in Kara no Kyoukai that I felt that the darker scenes were handled much more maturely, and I felt that they definitely served in getting certain points across in terms of the ideas they were tackling (yes, including the rape scene, which I won't go into too much detail unless you wish for me to elaborate on my reasoning in the Movie 3 thread). It's one of the reasons why I respect how Ufotable and Nasu handled this series in particular. You know there's something wrong when older Type-Moon fans consider Kara no Kyoukai as Type-Moon's most mature work, despite how other Type-Moon works arguably contain much darker and highly suggestive content than the stuff found in Kara no Kyoukai. Personally, I consider that maturity comes from the bold yet careful execution of such dark ideas, and it's not necessarily "mature" just because of the inherent negativity that dominates them. It's in that aspect that I can respect Kara no Kyoukai as a work that deals with questionable topics (especially since it rarely ever establishes a concrete stance and always offers multiple viewpoints, rarely ever settling on just one). it isn't my kind of fiction, as i'm sure you've gathered by now, but there's a lot i like about it. and i can't wait to get around to the 5th and 7th films, which i remember liking more than the others. I'll say this right now, Type Moon's most popular stuff (or rather, what made them popular, like Fate or Tsukihime) never was my kind of fiction. Rather I'm actually more of a supernatural/paranormal fan and I felt that Kara no Kyoukai definitely excelled in the genre. It's one of those rare cases where I felt that Nasu was truly well-meaning and purposefully subversive in his writing (opting for a more down-to-earth, human-centric and metaphysical approach than the usual stuff). But hey that's fair enough too, and I should mention that by me explaining all this I'm not necessarily trying to convince you to like it, rather I'm only explaining why I think it did well in what did. ^_^ |
ronriJul 3, 2014 11:52 AM
Aug 14, 2014 11:09 AM
#151
I might start peeling my oranges like that. |
Aug 28, 2014 4:56 PM
#152
Sol_Ou said: I might start peeling my oranges like that. Those are not oranges. |
Sep 17, 2014 5:58 AM
#153
This was actually really interesting. I liked this more than the first. I still can't understand everything but hell, that whole Shiki/SHIKI thing was quite amazing. The animation went smoothly, pretty beautiful to be honest. And the music, utterly marvel to hear. 8/10 |
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Sep 20, 2014 9:47 PM
#154
There's still a lot of mystery to uncover about Shiki and her other SHIKI. This episode seemed to be dedicated to Shiki and Kokutou which was nice. He was very attached to Shiki. Very into her. |
Oct 13, 2014 1:21 PM
#155
Plot is messy, the film is making things more complex than it needs to be. Dialogue is less cheesy (thank god) A solid 7 but that undressing scene makes it an 8. |
Oct 15, 2014 1:47 AM
#156
Nice episode, though it was more horror-esque than mystery with the decapitated bodies. The soundtrack was great as the previous one's, and the art being brilliant the only flaw I found with the movie was that it left us midway, with the mystery surrounding the murders still remaining an enigma to us viewers who haven't played the VN. P.S. Am I stupid for not knowing how Shiki ended up in hospital after holding the knife to Kokuto's throat? |
Oct 15, 2014 4:14 AM
#157
R2 said: the only flaw I found with the movie was that it left us midway, with the mystery surrounding the murders still remaining an enigma to us viewers who haven't played the VN. Yeah don't worry about that, it's left that way on purpose for the time being so it's not like you'll miss out anything as you watch the other movies. Also if you noticed, it's called "Murder Speculation Part 1" for a reason. ^_^ R2 said: P.S. Am I stupid for not knowing how Shiki ended up in hospital after holding the knife to Kokuto's throat? Nope and same as above, you're absolutely right for wondering about this and it becomes very important later. ^_^ |
Dec 11, 2014 5:19 AM
#158
Much better. Looking forward to episode 3. |
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Dec 30, 2014 5:10 AM
#159
Another one done.... Im all hyped up now (~~*_*)~~ |
There’s no hope on the battlefield. It has nothing but unspeakable despair. Just a crime we call victory, paid for by the pain of the defeated. Yet humanity has never recognized this truth. And the reason for that is, in every era, a dazzling hero has blinded people with their legends and prevented them from seeing the evil of bloodshed. The true nature of humanity has not advanced a step beyond the Stone Age! |
Feb 9, 2015 12:01 PM
#160
Another great movie :D It seems like up to now we've seen the first and third piece of Shiki, thought neither one of them was fully explained ... yet! This series is so exciting! \(*o*)/ In the end, Shiki was taken to a hospital due to her mental state? The hospital she was in looked like a normal hospital, not like one specialised in mental illness... |
Feb 9, 2015 12:07 PM
#161
Hibiki07 said: Another great movie :D It seems like up to now we've seen the first and third piece of Shiki, thought neither one of them was fully explained ... yet! This series is so exciting! (*o*)/ In the end, Shiki was taken to a hospital due to her mental state? The hospital she was in looked like a normal hospital, not like one specialised in mental illness... That is a really good obversation. Everything will be explained later. It seems like you already enjoy this series so you probably will love the next movies. |
Mar 16, 2015 3:44 PM
#162
Well, this one was certainly clearer in its narrative. No random ghosts thrown around, rather, a clear focus on Shiki and Kotukou. But dear lord, that boy is crazy. End was a bit ambiguous: is she in the hospital because of her psychological condition, or is she there because of something else? I'm not sure if it was just me, but I noticed Kotukou limping when he was on his way to bringing her flowers. An improvement over the first film. The dual personality disorder was a catch. 7/10 Ps. I'm seeing a very happy Kiritsugu in Daisuke. Ufotable things? /shrugs |
Mar 17, 2015 3:44 AM
#163
k0k0 said: Ps. I'm seeing a very happy Kiritsugu in Daisuke. Ufotable things? /shrugs Nah, rehashing character designs is a Type-Moon thing. |
Mar 19, 2015 8:38 AM
#164
Much more coherent and easier to follow, even if it was a more...subdued experience. The whole double personality thing was interesting though. But I just realized, with this dating, is Shiki still in high school (in movie 1)? What a surprise. Bit confused at the ending, though I guess it'll be clarified later. |
Mar 19, 2015 5:00 PM
#165
Drucoz said: But I just realized, with this dating, is Shiki still in high school (in movie 1)? What a surprise. In this movie yes, but in Movie 1 she's supposed to be around late high school to college years in terms of how old she is. If I recall correctly, she's starts at around 16 here in Movie 2 whereas she's already at 19-20 in Movie 1. |
Mar 19, 2015 11:35 PM
#166
ronri said: Drucoz said: But I just realized, with this dating, is Shiki still in high school (in movie 1)? What a surprise. In this movie yes, but in Movie 1 she's supposed to be around late high school to college years in terms of how old she is. If I recall correctly, she's starts at around 16 here in Movie 2 whereas she's already at 19-20 in Movie 1. I'm pretty sure she's 18/19 and possible still in school, though, see; -Joined in 95, presumably age 15/6 -Three years later, 98, so either still in or just graduated Definitely not 20 or college age, though. |
Mar 20, 2015 2:46 AM
#167
Insertanamehere said: ronri said: Drucoz said: But I just realized, with this dating, is Shiki still in high school (in movie 1)? What a surprise. In this movie yes, but in Movie 1 she's supposed to be around late high school to college years in terms of how old she is. If I recall correctly, she's starts at around 16 here in Movie 2 whereas she's already at 19-20 in Movie 1. I'm pretty sure she's 18/19 and possible still in school, though, see; -Joined in 95, presumably age 15/6 -Three years later, 98, so either still in or just graduated Definitely not 20 or college age, though. I just double-checked the novel and film timeline and I was right. She's 19 in Movie 1 since she went into high school at 16 in 1995. She spent two years in high school and at age 17 (1996) she went into a coma. In this regard, two years later she's 19 years old in 1998 which is when Movie 1 was set. The reason I said 19-20 is because she's turning 20 in the following year during Movie 7 which starts at February 7 which makes it really close to her coming birthday at February 17 (making her 20 after Movie 7). Also by "late high school to college years", I mean her age, not her actual school life. It's heavily implied that they're already meant to be in their graduating years since Mikiya had already joined and subsequently dropped out of university around the time after Shiki had woken out of her coma. Shiki simply resumed her high school studies at an older age of 19 years old just as she was about to turn 20 within the same year (1999). So at 19-20, she's technically in her late high school years even though she's still in high school due to the 2-year coma. Basically: Movie 2 - 16 yrs. old (17 yrs. old by the end of the movie) Movie 1, 3, 4, 5 - 19 yrs. old Movie 6, 7 - Still 19 but turning 20 yrs. old Epilogue - 20 yrs. old NOTE: When I say "college" I'm referring to the Western equivalent of Japan's high school (Year 11-12) which serves as the two prelim. years before going into university. In Western terms, Shiki is already meant to be in her "college" year in Movie 1, but she's still in "high school" based on Japan's school system. |
ronriMar 20, 2015 3:17 AM
Mar 30, 2015 12:29 PM
#169
I enjoyed the first movie enough, but this one was a bit better I think. Some of the things the characters were talking about in the first one kinda... "flew over my head" a few times. Not sure if that's the right way to put it, but yea. If that makes me stupid, then so be it. :p Well that wasn't the case here anyway. Easy to understand, although there are still unexplained mysteries of course, but that's to be expected. Based on what I've read in these sub forums though, certain events in the first movie(s) will make more sense later on, so perhaps I'll appreciate the first movie a bit more at some point... who knows. Anyway, I'm liking the series overall so far. Looking forward to seeing what the third movie has to offer. And yea, great animation and sound... as expected. It's ufotable. |
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