| @Weika Hazama definately does not need a buff. If anything he needs a nerf after his Jayoku damage. He just has way too many ways to open a combo easily. If he got a damage buff then random full screen hitting chains would easily break 3k damage and considering how easy it is to get a combo off a chain... He could probably have a reworking on damage prorations so most of the damage comes from his attacks and not j.cxn but I think he's fine atm. Theres a good balance between ground damage and j.ccccc, dj.ccccc. I could go for a slight damage buff for his 214b in mid air though :D and this is my max damage values from Jayoku that i can get - Zaneiga follow up - 4.8k - Corner - 5.6k - 6DA follow up - 5.8k - Corner - 6.3k I don't double jayoku since it prorates like a bitch i tend to just go for normal combos or LOLOLOL ASTRAL. Hazama's overheads are fine though, he isn't really supposed to be an in your face character. 6A is kinda slow and he can be mashed out of his command grab. It just makes him weaker at pressure and mix-up which makes him balanced. And Litchi. This is how i feel when I play against her. ._.; If she's standing 3/4 to close range, everything I do is a risk. If i throw out a chain and whiff it (even retracting it right after) the best thing that'll happen is that i'll end up blocking it. IMO what I feel would balance Litchi (at least slightly in my eyes, not as OP but still top tier) - On normal stick spin, if it clashes with a projectile it should stop attacking and either be set where it clashed or instantly return back to Litchi. - All Green should have more startup time or no redicioulous invul. - Same with Tsubame - Lower her damage or alter her proration so she doesn't do 4k combos off a random hit INTO corner. |
| But Tsubame Gaeshi already doesn't combo into anything (unlike CT) and All Green also starts up slower than in CT. An even slower startup would make All Green useless, imo. |
| How did they change All Green for CS? That one was like my favorite move playing as Tager vs Litchi. You can sledge right through it for a juicy counter-hit combo. I can just see the "WTF" on Litchi's face when it happens. As for Hazama - I'm a little bit apprehensive about ANOTHER character whose strategy revolves around staying far away and throwing long distance pokes. I also haven't really seen any great Hazamas running around. Best I've found is Zakiyama, but most videos I watch are of him getting dominated. I agree with the general consensus that he's a mid-tier character. I'd like to see someone good represent him before I say "upper mid tier", as Fireryda puts it. |
| The only change to All Green is just a slightly slower startup, nothing else. |
| There is something else, it comes out instantly after superflash (like 720) meaning it's impossible to block on reaction (supposedly). Specifically it went from 2+1 frames to 7+0. |
| Ah, damn. No more sledging through it for free, then. |
| Played quite a bit against Litchi today and well i guess All Green is fine. Didnt see it used much. (Probably once or twice out of 15 or so matches). It's generally Daisharin to pressure and force block into a mixup or 13 orphans in corner. Couple of Hazama vids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXD71RkauSI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JztI3CPkA64 IMO Hazama is Mid-High tier because he doesn't have to put himself at risk to start up a combo. Any chain that connects further than mid screen will give him enough hit stun to propel himself and follow up into combo for 2k+ damage for heaps of heat. If they block he can retract and launch again or follow it up anyways and has a convenient ambigous cross-over button. He's pretty much Nu/Lambda x Taokaka. From my experiences he's really comfortable being at nearly full screen and can go into a combo really easily especially on a chain hit. Up close he isn't too bad as well since his stuff isn't too slow and he has a couple of good lows and a decent overhead. It's not his main point but he has a couple of frame traps. What really sets him mid-high tier is the damage potential off Jayoku (2k on initial). Everytime I landed a Jayoku, even if it wasn't a CH (it usually was) as long as I didn't drop the combo for.. various reasons... I could hit 4k-5k going off a sweep easy while gaining ~30meter to do another Jayoku. TL;DR It's all about Jayoku baby. His combos just serve to fuel Jayoku. Hopefully next week I'll be able to record one of my matches and show you how I play and why I think he's mid-high tier :D |
| After watching Buppa's Hazama, I have to retract my previous statement about there not being any good Hazama players. I can definitely see him being as high as A tier. The damage off of a Jayoku Houtenjin counter hit is ridiculous (looks like he got more than half of Dora's health bar in that first video), and the damage off of his overhead hit-confirm to Jayoku is nothing to laugh at either. And as you said, those combos off of a chain drive build up quick since they're so easy to hit with. Combine that with his great mobility and fantastic aerial control, and I think Hazama could be pretty dangerous. As expected, however, Tager vs Hazama is going to be awful. Sledging through Ouroboros looks ineffective, and it looks like it's going to be nearly impossible to trap Hazama in a corner. Even in the best case, it's going to be a long, drawn out battle waiting for Hazama to get in my striking range. Fireryda said: Same as in CT. I'm pretty sure Jayoku Houtenjin will trade with both of those, so it's not like you don't have any options.Played quite a bit against Litchi today and well i guess All Green is fine. Didnt see it used much. (Probably once or twice out of 15 or so matches). It's generally Daisharin to pressure and force block into a mixup or 13 orphans in corner. |
| Hazama vs Litch is a really careful match. Easier to explain what I had to do. I'm assuming you play Tager so I'll give you rundown on how I play against him. Sorry if this doesn't make alot of sense~ Hehe sorry if this is too long but I'm still really excited from my weekly BB meet earlier today. Had some epic matches :D And Buppa is a great Hazama with his unorthodox playing style. IMO Zakiyama is better but they both play alot differently. Buppa is really really good at putting down pressure and it shows with his Jin and Ky. And Hazama is A- Tier at the highest, he just has too many downfalls to bring him to a solid A tier. No reversals without meter, no pressure and barely any mix-up options and pretty much has to play better than other people to win. |
| Thanks for the rundown. I'm not too worried about Jayoku, since I know if I 360A Jayoku will wiff and I can just follow up with a 360B when Hazama lands. I think I've seen 720 beat Jayoku before (if you buffer the 720 during Jayoku's flash), but I'm not completely confident in that. The matchup you just described sounds an awful lot like Tager vs Litchi in CT. Be real patient, wait for a bolt, and take advantage. The thing is, can't you just stay in the air (out of bolt's range) and poke at me for most of the match? I mean, Bolt might very well beat chain, but if it can't hit in the first place then I'm in trouble. Also, in CT lots of characters with alternate forms of mobility (Tao's drive, Rachel's wind, Arakune's dive, Jin's ice car) could beat Atomic Collider by using their weird mobility to mess with the magnetism. I was under the impression that Hazama's chain would be the same thing (i.e., I collider, you chain to somewhere random, and I can't pull you in). Is that not the case? |
| Ok 1 step at a time. 1. 720 only beats Jayoku if it comes out the frame after. Jayoku has alot of active frames that you'll get hit out of it and if you can buffer a 720 just block 720. And if you 360A you don't have to whiff because if you're whiffing then the Jayoku is hitting the invul frames and you could just land the 360A. 360A-> 360B isn't worth it if you can guarantee the 360A getting them. Don't forget that gadget finger does magnetize them and you can do it after a 360. 2. He can't stay in the air forever. To put it simply he can only do 1 chain / jump. As in he'll be able to throw another one when if he double jumps I think. I'll have to test it for you. Not sure if he can double jump after he A-cancels his chain. If i'm trying to hit Tager at full screen I super jump + double jump foward 6D. I'm pretty sure he can't though so you can get him on the way down and then try to move in on him. 3. This kinda relates to 2. I haven't tried going along the chains while I'm magnetized but I'm pretty sure it makes the flight retarded. I generally aim my chain at tager and go for a counter-hit into combo. But yes I'm pretty sure it'll do something wierd but he'll come back on course towards you, probably won't land in your collider so be ready to drop it and hit him with like a normal or a 360 or something. And it's entirely possible to grab him with atomic collider while he's propelling along the chain. The general plan when magnetized is stay back and defensive. If i jump you can AC on reaction and screw up my chain aiming. And it's just too risky, especially if you just do a little pull with AC and cancel it into barrier to block the chain so I come flying towards you. The tager I know did that to me and well it wasn't healthy. You have to take advantage of Tager's gadget finger though. It keeps him really close. The problem is getting him into the first combo into a gadget finger. When I get combo'd i normally eat ~6-7k damage from the tager and somehow barely make it out alive. If you can do that then you can play defensive for a timeout forcing him to come to you and exploit that. Just don't get beat up before you can combo him. Hope that helps a bit ~ |
| It's kinda hard for me to see how useful your advice is since I can only play pirated CS by myself on my PC, but I appreciate the input anyway. I'll probably figure things out the old fashioned way - by getting my ass handed to me enough times that I figure out how to not die. |
| Ahah that sucks. I play at the arcades with quite a few good people and our best player is a Tager player. So I can give you a couple of tips on how he plays. And yeah the CPU plays so much differently.. they make Tsubaki seem like a good character with her psychic DP's that hit you out of anything (hint: it's actually a dp projectile..) But tbh your tager play is revolving around trying to get him towards you where it becomes generic tager play. Learn to get used to his Gadget Finger (where he picks them up off the ground). 22D -> 720C does work and its untechable. :D |
| Wow, nice discussion there. I'm actually glad I started it with a single sentence I wrote with PS3's browser. I just wanted to clarify that I don't really disagree with the tier listing. It's just that (in my opinion of course) I don't think the risk factor as I would call it is included in the tier list. What I mean is, it all sounds good on paper but getting a chain hit isn't as easy as it sounds. On top of that, much of his stuff is so damn situational. For example you have to make sure your 5C hits at least 50% of your opponent's hitbox and you have to pay attention to small characters' hitboxes like Carl's and Rachel's. The timing for the chains isn't easy either. 4D in his BnB or like you said 6D after Hotenjin Counter. His 3C is great but has a slow startup, his 6B is complete garbage, 6A is fine if you hit confirm Hotenjin like Weika stated. Though I don't really see why you should use 6A instead of 214D-A in this case. Of course I don't have as much experience as you (no arcades in europe, obviously). But I was able to play against some human opponents. Bang is so annoying with his drive spam as it counters your chain and teleports him in melee range. Ragna doesn't even care, he just belial edges the distance. I didn't care about Tsubaki because she couldn't do really anything useful against my chains. Arakune is fine I guess at least CS Ara. I think CT Ara would be more problematic for Hazama because of his bugs interrupting your chain animation. Hazama mirrors was like a continuation of my old main Jin mirrors. Stay patient, look for an opening and start a combo. I also like using his 5B as anti air > combo. Looking forward to your new arcade experiences. I just hope they won't be nerfing Hazama in the console version. |
| > Though I don't really see why you should use 6A instead of 214D-A in this case. Mixup. If you train your opponent to watch out for 214D-A overhead they'll begin to block high on reaction to 214D animation. |
MM805 said: > Though I don't really see why you should use 6A instead of 214D-A in this case. Mixup. If you train your opponent to watch out for 214D-A overhead they'll begin to block high on reaction to 214D animation. It'll work at times.. but it just doesn't link to anything other than a Jayoku that's why its pretty cruddy. IAD j.2c is better, if it's low enough it's possible to go into a 5c->3c -> combo or just 3c -> combo. Shino05 said: Insert Huge Quote Here TL;DR stuff |
| Nice stuff. I mistook 2C for 3C, my bad. Too bad I deleted BBCS from my hard disk (because my pc couldn't handle it), so I can't test stuff. I think I'll just wait for the console version. |
| I haven't really payed much attention to Hazama's vids in CS, but how would you think he would fare against uber Bang? To me he doesn't seem to be that hard of a matchup considering how easily Bang can close in on him and kick his ass. Given that his snake seems to be based on distance, Bang could use daifuna and teleport close to him to start a combo. But given that, I don't think anyone will have an easy time with Bang besides maybe Litchi in certain cases. Edit: Oh, just saw Fireryda's post. Lol. |
| If you can avoid Jayoku and don't do stupid stuff at full range you won't have a problem. |
MM805 said: If you can avoid Jayoku and don't do stupid stuff at full range you won't have a problem. That's impossible ;P AFAIK the only thing that won't get smashed by Jayoku is A spam. IB -> Jayoku = Fun Times. Either 4k unburstable combo or 4.5k burstable combo mid screen.. 4.5k unburstable ->6k combo if your name is Zakiyama. And with his back to the corner.. that damage is great :D And it's harder for bang to roll over Hazama than it is with Litchi. 5b->3c -> combo = lots of meter + JAYOKU!! Yomi Jayoku = LOL DAMAGE. Hazama has a huge amount of tools at close range too.. while his command grab is shit and prorates at 50% i think, it gets him out of so much stuff.. (command grabbing carnage scissors ftw!) And 5b is fast and can combo easily. And if he has space, 6 frame start-up flash-kick counter for good times :D |
FirerydaMay 11, 2010 1:18 AM
Fireryda said: Spinny beats Jayoku. :PThat's impossible ;P AFAIK the only thing that won't get smashed by Jayoku is A spam. |
naikou said: Fireryda said: Spinny beats Jayoku. :PThat's impossible ;P AFAIK the only thing that won't get smashed by Jayoku is A spam. and cat chair... oh god cat chair.. T_T |
| Inferno Divider beats and goes through Houtenjin. ;x |
Massaki said: Inferno Divider beats and goes through Houtenjin. ;x What doesn't it beat and go through? (apart from other dp's with even more rediculous invul frames.. looking at you Jin & Litchi) And Jayoku'n Ragna when he's in neutral = ?.? uCrazY? Pretty much every DP beatsout Jayoku in a neutral situation except Tsubaki's. Sometimes it clashes since it's not a true DP afaik. That spike thing is actually a projectile which is good times for hakumen. And Noel can slide under it with 3c or it'll whiff completely with 5d... ;_; Personally I love punishing Carnage Scissors with it. Block first hit -> JAYOKU -> 5k+ combo >:D |
Fireryda said: What doesn't it beat and go through? (apart from other dp's with even more rediculous invul frames.. looking at you Jin & Litchi) I can related to that. But only to Litchi. Tsubame Gaeshi is just ridiculous. Half the time I end up clashing DPs against Jin, I mostly always win. Inferno Divider > Clash > Inferno Divider. :x |
Massaki said: I can related to that. But only to Litchi. Tsubame Gaeshi is just ridiculous. Half the time I end up clashing DPs against Jin, I mostly always win. Inferno Divider > Clash > Inferno Divider. :x http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJZInsw9btk IT DOES NOT WORK!! D: |
| Sadly, said tactic does not work on himself. : < It's like a Hokuto no Ken battle, the first guy to fuck up loses. |
Massaki said: Sadly, said tactic does not work on himself. : < It's like a Hokuto no Ken battle, the first guy to fuck up loses. Unless you're already dead. x_x; ITT> Why DP's are OP ;P |
| The thing is, though, Inferno divida can be really predictable I find. Even in CT, I usually have an easy time predicting when my opponent will do it and I usually just use 8D to counter it. Actually, I tend to be able to predict Tsubame Gaeshi as well and just use 2D in such a situation. |
| Jin's grab is OP. he grabbed me out of my Jayoku. Nerf pl0x. ;_; |
| So apparently the rebalance is slated to be around 6 months after console release. Heres what I'd like in it. Bang - 5a not hit crouching anymore.. it lets him do retarded mix-ups in block strings.. Litchi - Nerf Proration on hits.. Like half of her combo starters have 100% proration!! And then the shit just gets crazy... Ragna - Pretty much fine but lower meter gain on Belial Edge.. That lets him RC everything all day z_z; Hakumen - Fine Carl - Fine Taokaka - New combos less taunt loop Lambda - Fine maybe increase damage slightly for 5dd combos Hazama - Fine.. maybe less damage off Jayoku combos and make j.214b an overhead. Arakune - Proration changes on bugs and give him new ways to be effective without curse as he seems to be a one trick pony atm. Curse enemy and ohko combo. Tsubaki - Haven't played her enough but IMO she feels very solid just on the weak side. Slower drain on Tsubaki Install.. Drains so fast it's almost useless as its easy to block everything once she goes into it. Not sure about combo-ability of it though. Everything else seems to be ok. Jin - Slightly increase Frozen time for some Ice attacks and change some proration and damage values so he's a bit stronger. Very solid atm and requires actual skill to use properly instead of spam-happy. Noel - Better normals and less reliant on retarded drive mix-up. Once you figure out her game she's ridiculously easy to beat. Tager - Fine. Low tier but a solid character nevertheless. Has general grappler disadvantages. Rachel - Fix proration (Solo damage values are ok) and make frog slightly faster in startup and have it crawl faster. Recharge wind slightly faster and let her always be regenerating wind unless it's in effect instead of the wait time after use or dashing. She requires too much wind to do any decent damage and without wind she's put in a huge disadvantage as she needs it to zone effectively. Might be a bit greedy on some of the things I want but in general BBCS is a much more balanced game. What I really hope they change is Litchi and Rachel's combo prorations. Litchi is insane, if she gets a random CH on you she can go into a 4k+ combo into corner and get 50 meter for an unblockable oki game into another combo and.. well it gets worse.. Rachel is just.. weak. Needs too much wind to do anything solid. She only has to make one mistake before the other player can make an easy comeback since she does realistically 1/2-2/3 of most character's combos. |
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