| Hey, so I've just finished SSY and thought it was pretty decent, except with the main issue being the terrible inconsistencies where AI and DF are concerned. Considering these turn out to be vital in how the story plays out - everything from episode 17/18 onwards centres around these - the fact that they're so inconsistently applied served to be somewhat of a sore spot for me. When we're first introduced to the two, it seems that they're merely mental barricades. The symptoms and effects of both are based on mental knowledge - if you attack or kill a human, and you're aware they're human, then it kicks into effect. However, we also saw how if you attack and / or kill something that isn't human but you believe it to be, you still receive the effects of AI and DF. When the Priest originally killed the Minishiro, it showed an image of a human whilst it was dying. This triggered the DF because of the mental image. The Priest saw a human dying - even if it was fake - and suffered because of it. This shows that it works as a mental thing. However, later on there are two occasions where we're shown the reverse is not true, where DF is concerned. When the Rats are attacking the village with the 'Fiend', after Saki gets separated from Satoru by the suicide worm, she gets attacked by a teenager. He had mistakenly thought that she was a Queerat. She then replied saying that "If you had killed me, you would have died from the death feedback." Right here there are contradictions with AI and DF. If he had killed her believing her to be a Queerat, why would he have died from the DF? We were shown that it was a mental thing, so if he mentally didn't think she was a human, logic dictates that it shouldn't have affected him. But if it still would have affected him, then that proves there is more to it than just mental hypnosis. Mentally it can trigger DF, but that's just one method. If he would have died then mentally would not be the only way. What it shows is that when you kill a human, regardless of whether you believe they are human or not, you will die. This was seen again when the villagers were ambushed by the Queerats at night and mistakenly killed each other. They saw the silhouettes of other groups of villagers in the night and killed them, thinking they were rats. Then they started dying because of the DF from killing humans. So at this point, I'm confused just what precisely DF is. I don't get it. If it's supposedly a mental hypnosis barrier sort of thing, why does it take place 100% of the time? If it will always take place regardless of whether you're aware of killing a human or not, why can mental images trigger it? That seems somewhat redundant - even dangerous. People can accidentally trigger it and kill themselves because of this. It doesn't really make much sense to have mental images work as well. But this itself is then contradicted by the fact that Fiends can indiscriminately kill without any consequences. One might argue "Fiends don't see themselves as human, so it's fine" but like I've already said, we were shown how it does not matter whether one is aware of what they are or what they have killed : if they kill a human, they will die 100% of the time. So why is it that Fiends are able to bypass AI and DF? Further evidence against DF being a mental thing is given at the end of episode 25. After Saki finds out that Queerats are actually human, at that point she realised that every single rat she killed was human. Surely DF should have kicked in at that point, if it was a mental thing? But it didn't. Why? My issues with AI come in because there are seemingly a myriad of ways you can circumvent it without any issue at all. When the 'Fiend' started rampaging, I was wondering to myself "Why don't they just have one person sacrifice themselves, and kill the 'Fiend' whilst accepting the Death Feedback?" But they couldn't do that because of the AI. Okay, fair enough, they're stopped before they can even launch an attack. But when the Priest Shisei encounters the 'Fiend', he actually uses his Cantus against her, albeit in an indirect manner. He destroys the ground below her feet, causing a small sinkhole. In this manner, you can suddenly see a very easy workaround to AI - indirectly using it to cause the 'Fiend's' death. In the example given, he simply could have covered up the hole after making it and burying the 'Fiend' in the process. She could have been buried alive and died off in this manner. This was shown again later on when both Saki and Satoru attacked the 'Fiend'. Firstly, Satoru threw anthrax at her. How was that not an intent to cause harm? He was clearly able to bypass both AI and DF. He physically threw something at her with the intent to kill. How would that be any different to throwing, say, a spear at her? Viruses and spears both kill people. Why would one trigger AI but not the other? Secondly, Saki blew up the virus - which caused the 'Fiend' to suffer severe burns all over her body. At this point, she has physically harmed another human. She didn't suffer anything for it. Nothing was triggered at all. Why? If it's so incredibly easy to bypass the repercussions, why then didn't they just do it from the start? It really ruined pretty much everything from episode 18 onwards for me, because the entire arc was predicated on "We can do absolutely nothing to stop the 'Fiend'. We need another way of stopping her or we will all die." Yet we were shown time and again that there were absolutely plenty of ways of stopping the 'Fiend' without having any negative consequences for it. Attack Inhibition and Death Feedback were inconsistently applied all throughout the story. If I'm missing something here, by all means enlighten me. But from what we've been seen, the story has directly contradicted itself on multiple occasions with how it has handled these two phenomena. Tis a shame. I do hope I've missed something, but I don't see how the points I've mentioned are incorrect. |
MazApr 29, 2016 8:08 AM
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| Because the teenager and saki, if you kill smth you dont know what the df doesnt occur, but if he had gone to her, checked and seen a dead body he would have dided by df. And i think its, just by direct killing. If it doesnt feel like killing you wont die, thats what sakis mother said, because of the poison. And when she enflamed the poison she tried to help her, since its a mental thing and you are thinking of helping her you wont die from a df. So maybe a karma demon is just a mental ill person, who thinks that he will help everyone by killing them or smth. Well it is some mental illnes for sure. I guess you cant attack directly with cantus to another human. The doctor in the past also poisoned the karma demon to kill him... But i think you could just by smn who is not knowing where the karma demon is, throw some stones over the house where she stands. Might kill her. |
| My favorite quotes from animes: Those who seek miracles will never experience one. The hand of salvation only extends to people who try to make miracles happen. - Ef a tale of melodies. I destroy worlds. I create worlds. - Code geass We are humans. - Shinsekai yori 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and a 10km run EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! - One punch man |
Smooki said: Because the teenager and saki, if you kill smth you dont know what the df doesnt occur, but if he had gone to her, checked and seen a dead body he would have dided by df. And i think its, just by direct killing. If it doesnt feel like killing you wont die, thats what sakis mother said, because of the poison. And when she enflamed the poison she tried to help her, since its a mental thing and you are thinking of helping her you wont die from a df. So maybe a karma demon is just a mental ill person, who thinks that he will help everyone by killing them or smth. Well it is some mental illnes for sure. I guess you cant attack directly with cantus to another human. The doctor in the past also poisoned the karma demon to kill him... But i think you could just by smn who is not knowing where the karma demon is, throw some stones over the house where she stands. Might kill her. See, I would have accepted that first line - about checking the body and realising, thus DF occurring afterwards - but twice we saw that wasn't the case. When the villagers accidentally killed each other in the middle of the night, they didn't seem to have realised that they were killing each other, yet suffered DF anyway. The DF kicked in before they could go check the bodies and realise. The second time was when Saki realised at the end that the Rats were actually humans. Once she became consciously aware that they were indeed human descendants, surely the DF should have kicked in then, had it been required for them to first realise? As for the rest of it, if only direct killing works then I'm just a little disappointed at the entire last third of this story, because they could have just indirectly killed her without suffering from AI and DF. They made it out to be impossible, so it's just somewhat disappointing, bordering on poor writing. I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt and assume there was some rationale in the novel that was simply left out in the anime version. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: Smooki said: Because the teenager and saki, if you kill smth you dont know what the df doesnt occur, but if he had gone to her, checked and seen a dead body he would have dided by df. And i think its, just by direct killing. If it doesnt feel like killing you wont die, thats what sakis mother said, because of the poison. And when she enflamed the poison she tried to help her, since its a mental thing and you are thinking of helping her you wont die from a df. So maybe a karma demon is just a mental ill person, who thinks that he will help everyone by killing them or smth. Well it is some mental illnes for sure. I guess you cant attack directly with cantus to another human. The doctor in the past also poisoned the karma demon to kill him... But i think you could just by smn who is not knowing where the karma demon is, throw some stones over the house where she stands. Might kill her. See, I would have accepted that first line - about checking the body and realising, thus DF occurring afterwards - but twice we saw that wasn't the case. When the villagers accidentally killed each other in the middle of the night, they didn't seem to have realised that they were killing each other, yet suffered DF anyway. The DF kicked in before they could go check the bodies and realise. The second time was when Saki realised at the end that the Rats were actually humans. Once she became consciously aware that they were indeed human descendants, surely the DF should have kicked in then, had it been required for them to first realise? As for the rest of it, if only direct killing works then I'm just a little disappointed at the entire last third of this story, because they could have just indirectly killed her without suffering from AI and DF. They made it out to be impossible, so it's just somewhat disappointing, bordering on poor writing. I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt and assume there was some rationale in the novel that was simply left out in the anime version. When did actually villagers kill each other? Because i dont remember this case ^^ Also, they are changed soo much that even if you know, you wont die. The monk at the beginning knew the truth. They said he seems to be affacted by it. But because they look sooo different, it doesnt occur despite knowing it. LEts summerize how deathfeedback works If you kill the same race as the one you think you are, deathfeedback occurs. IF you know you killed someone of the same race that you are, the deathfeedback occurs. You cant kill anyone of the same race intentionally with Cantus. You can indirectly kill someone of the same race or by using a way, which doesn't feel like direct killing. Did i left out something?= |
| My favorite quotes from animes: Those who seek miracles will never experience one. The hand of salvation only extends to people who try to make miracles happen. - Ef a tale of melodies. I destroy worlds. I create worlds. - Code geass We are humans. - Shinsekai yori 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and a 10km run EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! - One punch man |
Smooki said: When did actually villagers kill each other? Because i dont remember this case ^^ Also, they are changed soo much that even if you know, you wont die. The monk at the beginning knew the truth. They said he seems to be affacted by it. But because they look sooo different, it doesnt occur despite knowing it. LEts summerize how deathfeedback works If you kill the same race as the one you think you are, deathfeedback occurs. IF you know you killed someone of the same race that you are, the deathfeedback occurs. You cant kill anyone of the same race intentionally with Cantus. You can indirectly kill someone of the same race or by using a way, which doesn't feel like direct killing. Did i left out something?= It was when the Rats attacked the village in the middle of the night. We received a future Saki narrative saying how the villagers - who were already in groups of 5 - decided to bunch up into even bigger groups. But then she said something along the lines of "But even our grouping up turned out to be some part of Squealer's plan" at which point it showed the villagers using Cantus on each other and then dying to DF. It specifically WAS DF they died to because present-day Saki was explaining how it works to the child that mistakenly attacked her. I was under the impression that they changed the Rats so that you wouldn't even consider them human. That was why they could use their Cantus on them - because they didn't even think they were human in the first place. So after Saki realised that they were indeed human - even if changed - it stands to reason that she should have been affected by it. Was it ever stated whether that Priest at the start who died was actually aware of the true nature of the Rats? As far as I'm aware, that's all the rules. But it's those same rules that seem to have been contradicted on several occasions. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: It was when the Rats attacked the village in the middle of the night. We received a future Saki narrative saying how the villagers - who were already in groups of 5 - decided to bunch up into even bigger groups. But then she said something along the lines of "But even our grouping up turned out to be some part of Squealer's plan" at which point it showed the villagers using Cantus on each other and then dying to DF. It specifically WAS DF they died to because present-day Saki was explaining how it works to the child that mistakenly attacked her. I was under the impression that they changed the Rats so that you wouldn't even consider them human. That was why they could use their Cantus on them - because they didn't even think they were human in the first place. So after Saki realised that they were indeed human - even if changed - it stands to reason that she should have been affected by it. Was it ever stated whether that Priest at the start who died was actually aware of the true nature of the Rats? As far as I'm aware, that's all the rules. But it's those same rules that seem to have been contradicted on several occasions. Hmmm, Well since there was much smoke and stuff, if they didn't realize it and die after it makes sense. And the thing with the priest I am really sure. That's after they got the information from the false minoshiro or how this thing was called..... Even with knowing it you can kill them, without dying ^^ . The priest was a bit under the effect. I also think the strength of the death feedback might be different from person to person. I mean it always kills if you kill a human, but if you kill a rat knowing they are human it might have a different effect. Like a caring person might be 30% affected and cant kill fore a while or a not caring just 10% or smth.... |
| My favorite quotes from animes: Those who seek miracles will never experience one. The hand of salvation only extends to people who try to make miracles happen. - Ef a tale of melodies. I destroy worlds. I create worlds. - Code geass We are humans. - Shinsekai yori 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and a 10km run EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! - One punch man |
Smooki said: Hmmm, Well since there was much smoke and stuff, if they didn't realize it and die after it makes sense. And the thing with the priest I am really sure. That's after they got the information from the false minoshiro or how this thing was called..... Even with knowing it you can kill them, without dying ^^ . The priest was a bit under the effect. I also think the strength of the death feedback might be different from person to person. I mean it always kills if you kill a human, but if you kill a rat knowing they are human it might have a different effect. Like a caring person might be 30% affected and cant kill fore a while or a not caring just 10% or smth.... They were shown to be dying instantly though. That's the problem. I suppose it's possible he could have known. At the very least, he was more aware than most people. But I was wondering whether he would have as much knowledge about everything - maybe only the Head Priest was fully aware of all the history, for example. That last part is just speculation, sadly. Have you read the novel? Because at least all the info in the novel will be there. It could just be that the anime has left out some important details. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: They were shown to be dying instantly though. That's the problem. I suppose it's possible he could have known. At the very least, he was more aware than most people. But I was wondering whether he would have as much knowledge about everything - maybe only the Head Priest was fully aware of all the history, for example. That last part is just speculation, sadly. Have you read the novel? Because at least all the info in the novel will be there. It could just be that the anime has left out some important details. I didnt read the novel :/ but i want in future. Well, she said I think that he has caught a false manoshiro and got alle the information he needed....So squealer knew like everything |
| My favorite quotes from animes: Those who seek miracles will never experience one. The hand of salvation only extends to people who try to make miracles happen. - Ef a tale of melodies. I destroy worlds. I create worlds. - Code geass We are humans. - Shinsekai yori 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and a 10km run EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! - One punch man |
| I agree with all the inconsistencies that you found. In addition I have to say that I found one more and it is the way they killed Maria's daughter: she dies for killing Kiroumaru (because she thaught that she was a bakenezumi too), but in previous chapters it is explained that kiroumaru's army was exterminated using the fiend's cantus; she had died that time 'cause she killed other bakenezumi as Kiroumaru. That's the inconsistency. |
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CamiloJTM said: I agree with all the inconsistencies that you found. In addition I have to say that I found one more and it is the way they killed Maria's daughter: she dies for killing Kiroumaru (because she thaught that she was a bakenezumi too), but in previous chapters it is explained that kiroumaru's army was exterminated using the fiend's cantus; she had died that time 'cause she killed other bakenezumi as Kiroumaru. That's the inconsistency. Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that bit too. I was wondering whether they had explicitly said whether or not she had killed them with Cantus, or if she had only destroyed their weapons but the rats themselves were killed in some other fashion. But if they were killed by Maria then yeah, she should have died there. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: CamiloJTM said: I agree with all the inconsistencies that you found. In addition I have to say that I found one more and it is the way they killed Maria's daughter: she dies for killing Kiroumaru (because she thaught that she was a bakenezumi too), but in previous chapters it is explained that kiroumaru's army was exterminated using the fiend's cantus; she had died that time 'cause she killed other bakenezumi as Kiroumaru. That's the inconsistency. Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that bit too. I was wondering whether they had explicitly said whether or not she had killed them with Cantus, or if she had only destroyed their weapons but the rats themselves were killed in some other fashion. But if they were killed by Maria then yeah, she should have died there. In the last episodes, Kiroumaru says that the arrows were stopped and returned to all of them. That's why I think that Maria's daughter slaughtered them. |
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CamiloJTM said: I agree with all the inconsistencies that you found. In addition I have to say that I found one more and it is the way they killed Maria's daughter: she dies for killing Kiroumaru (because she thaught that she was a bakenezumi too), but in previous chapters it is explained that kiroumaru's army was exterminated using the fiend's cantus; she had died that time 'cause she killed other bakenezumi as Kiroumaru. That's the inconsistency. Just watched the series and came here to see this, the way they killed that kid was messed up, as she destroyed Kiroumaru army before and that was ok... what a big and sad plothole... didn't they notice it in the novel? They could have fixed it in the anime... |
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-Maz said: CamiloJTM said: I agree with all the inconsistencies that you found. In addition I have to say that I found one more and it is the way they killed Maria's daughter: she dies for killing Kiroumaru (because she thaught that she was a bakenezumi too), but in previous chapters it is explained that kiroumaru's army was exterminated using the fiend's cantus; she had died that time 'cause she killed other bakenezumi as Kiroumaru. That's the inconsistency. Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that bit too. I was wondering whether they had explicitly said whether or not she had killed them with Cantus, or if she had only destroyed their weapons but the rats themselves were killed in some other fashion. But if they were killed by Maria then yeah, she should have died there. The kid only stopped the enemy armies weapons, the rats were the ones that killed each other IIRC. About the rats actually being human, it's said in the show that they're far enough genetically that it doesn't trigger DF. That was the whole point of warping the genes of "normal" humans who didn't have Cantus since Cantus users were notorious for killing/ruling humans before the scientist group also warped their genes to include AI and DF. I probably didn't do a good job explaining everything in generic answers so ask me specific questions and I'll go in depth with the answers to explain it. |
Paramvir said: -Maz said: Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that bit too. I was wondering whether they had explicitly said whether or not she had killed them with Cantus, or if she had only destroyed their weapons but the rats themselves were killed in some other fashion. But if they were killed by Maria then yeah, she should have died there. The kid only stopped the enemy armies weapons, the rats were the ones that killed each other IIRC. About the rats actually being human, it's said in the show that they're far enough genetically that it doesn't trigger DF. That was the whole point of warping the genes of "normal" humans who didn't have Cantus since Cantus users were notorious for killing/ruling humans before the scientist group also warped their genes to include AI and DF. I probably didn't do a good job explaining everything in generic answers so ask me specific questions and I'll go in depth with the answers to explain it. Whether the rats were killed by Maria or by the other rats is something I was wondering about though, because if I recall correctly the rats were reduced to lumps of flesh. Was it explained how the rats were reduced to that state without the use of cantus? Because that implies they were killed by Maria since they ended up like that. I'm curious as to how the rats would have been able to kill the others like that. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: Paramvir said: The kid only stopped the enemy armies weapons, the rats were the ones that killed each other IIRC. About the rats actually being human, it's said in the show that they're far enough genetically that it doesn't trigger DF. That was the whole point of warping the genes of "normal" humans who didn't have Cantus since Cantus users were notorious for killing/ruling humans before the scientist group also warped their genes to include AI and DF. I probably didn't do a good job explaining everything in generic answers so ask me specific questions and I'll go in depth with the answers to explain it. Whether the rats were killed by Maria or by the other rats is something I was wondering about though, because if I recall correctly the rats were reduced to lumps of flesh. Was it explained how the rats were reduced to that state without the use of cantus? Because that implies they were killed by Maria since they ended up like that. I'm curious as to how the rats would have been able to kill the others like that. IIRC it heavily implies that the only thing the child did was take away the weapons of the opposing army. It never actually gives a straight answer, though, since the only people who could provide the answers to those questions were the child, squealer, and kiromarou (all dead). If they were all burned to lumps of flesh the rats could've done that themselves since they had plenty of explosive weapons as shown when they assaulted the village, but they could've blindfolded the kid and told it to use Cantus in a certain direction. When I rewatched the series a couple months ago I only remember them saying that the opposing army's weapons were in unused condition implying that the kid only unarmed them, though. The rest is only speculation unless the novel says what happened explicitly (haven't read the novel). |
| @Paramvir Ah, so it isn't said either way then. Explosives would have been my first guess, but that would lead me to my next question - what was the state of the battlefield? Surely that would have been completely messed up if lots of explosives were used? Because along with all the weapons missing, I would assume that the state of the battlefield would also be something they mentioned in all the strange happenings. Blind-folding should make sense, since it was made to look like a mental thing, but that falls in line with my previously mentioned disrepancies, when DF was shown to kick in no matter what, regardless of whether someone was mentally aware or not. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: @Paramvir Ah, so it isn't said either way then. Explosives would have been my first guess, but that would lead me to my next question - what was the state of the battlefield? Surely that would have been completely messed up if lots of explosives were used? Because along with all the weapons missing, I would assume that the state of the battlefield would also be something they mentioned in all the strange happenings. Blind-folding should make sense, since it was made to look like a mental thing, but that falls in line with my previously mentioned disrepancies, when DF was shown to kick in no matter what, regardless of whether someone was mentally aware or not. DF never "kicked in no matter what" from what I remember. The example you gave in previous posts was when they were burning each other in the fields instead of the rats, but in that example the fire used would illuminate whatever they ended up burning. |
Paramvir said: -Maz said: @Paramvir Ah, so it isn't said either way then. Explosives would have been my first guess, but that would lead me to my next question - what was the state of the battlefield? Surely that would have been completely messed up if lots of explosives were used? Because along with all the weapons missing, I would assume that the state of the battlefield would also be something they mentioned in all the strange happenings. Blind-folding should make sense, since it was made to look like a mental thing, but that falls in line with my previously mentioned disrepancies, when DF was shown to kick in no matter what, regardless of whether someone was mentally aware or not. DF never "kicked in no matter what" from what I remember. The example you gave in previous posts was when they were burning each other in the fields instead of the rats, but in that example the fire used would illuminate whatever they ended up burning. In that example I was referring to the events of episode 20, and they weren't burning each other in the field. They just used Cantus to crush each other. As well as when Saki was attacked by the child who had mistaken her for a Rat. The boulder would've completely crushed and covered her, so he wouldn't have been able to see the body, but she still said the DF would have kicked in and killed him. It was both the events together which made me a little confused as to just what exactly could trigger DF. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: Paramvir said: DF never "kicked in no matter what" from what I remember. The example you gave in previous posts was when they were burning each other in the fields instead of the rats, but in that example the fire used would illuminate whatever they ended up burning. In that example I was referring to the events of episode 20, and they weren't burning each other in the field. They just used Cantus to crush each other. As well as when Saki was attacked by the child who had mistaken her for a Rat. The boulder would've completely crushed and covered her, so he wouldn't have been able to see the body, but she still said the DF would have kicked in and killed him. It was both the events together which made me a little confused as to just what exactly could trigger DF. Isn't episode 20 the one with the attack during the night in the field? Clarify for me what happened at that part if I'm wrong. If the boulder crushed Saki and the kid went to see what he crushed, he would've had DF. If he didn't go and see it, he would've thought he just killed a rat or something and so it wouldn't have triggered. DF requires you to see what you're killing (or what you already killed) before it takes effect since you can't know without looking. |
Paramvir said: Isn't episode 20 the one with the attack during the night in the field? Clarify for me what happened at that part if I'm wrong. If the boulder crushed Saki and the kid went to see what he crushed, he would've had DF. If he didn't go and see it, he would've thought he just killed a rat or something and so it wouldn't have triggered. DF requires you to see what you're killing (or what you already killed) before it takes effect since you can't know without looking. Yes it is, when the villagers group together in the fields and get attacked by the Rats at nighttime, so they retaliate by crushing and twisting each other. There's no fire. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: Paramvir said: Isn't episode 20 the one with the attack during the night in the field? Clarify for me what happened at that part if I'm wrong. If the boulder crushed Saki and the kid went to see what he crushed, he would've had DF. If he didn't go and see it, he would've thought he just killed a rat or something and so it wouldn't have triggered. DF requires you to see what you're killing (or what you already killed) before it takes effect since you can't know without looking. Yes it is, when the villagers group together in the fields and get attacked by the Rats at nighttime, so they retaliate by crushing and twisting each other. There's no fire. Well I just went and rewatched that part of the episode and I can definitely see why that would give you doubts about the DF. I agree with you that that part definitely goes against what is the standard on DF and you can only really argue that one by stretching it and saying the moonlight let them know it was a real person / they went and looked afterwards. I'd have to agree with you, though, that that instance was a really poorly thought out moment in the anime in terms of DF consistency. Only other thing you can really say is that the people that were pulled up were way larger than rats but that's also an iffy point to argue with how huge some of the rats can be. Eh that was a really bad oversight by them. |
Paramvir said: -Maz said: Yes it is, when the villagers group together in the fields and get attacked by the Rats at nighttime, so they retaliate by crushing and twisting each other. There's no fire. Well I just went and rewatched that part of the episode and I can definitely see why that would give you doubts about the DF. I agree with you that that part definitely goes against what is the standard on DF and you can only really argue that one by stretching it and saying the moonlight let them know it was a real person / they went and looked afterwards. I'd have to agree with you, though, that that instance was a really poorly thought out moment in the anime in terms of DF consistency. Only other thing you can really say is that the people that were pulled up were way larger than rats but that's also an iffy point to argue with how huge some of the rats can be. Eh that was a really bad oversight by them. I'm glad it's not me misunderstanding something really basic then lol. I'll just put it down as another poor moment of the anime; there were a fair few scenes that were poorly made which I had to read the explanations for by those who've read the novel. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
-Maz said: Secondly, Saki blew up the virus - which caused the 'Fiend' to suffer severe burns all over her body. At this point, she has physically harmed another human. She didn't suffer anything for it. Nothing was triggered at all. Why? A few points: 1) This is explained better in the novel, though it might have been in the anime but I don't remember. 'because when I burned the psychobuster my goal to save Satoru also included saving the fiend. If I'm trying to save someone, but they get hurt in the process, I'm not attacking them intentionally' - Saki 2) As far as I'm aware, AI is the mental thing and DF is a physical thing. For example you can bypass the former but definitely not the latter e.g when Maria's child believed Kiroumaru was human and was able to attack because she didn't see them as one of her own kind (queerat). However, she did suffer from death feedback because she could actually see the death. 3) Fiends not suffering from AI and DF isn't to do with 'not believing they are human', it's actually a genetic mutatuon that causes them to have incomplete AI and DF. 4) Also, Saki not suffering from death feedback after finding out that queerats are humans is because she couldn't mentally consider them their kind (I guess because their appearance is so different) Conversation between Saki and Satoru in the novel: (Saki) 'In that case, we should've died from death feedback... We did kill humans after all, even if they didn't look like it.' Just thinking about this made my heart speed up... (Satoru) 'No they're not human. They may have come from the same ancestors as us, but they are a completely different species...We also need to mentally consider them our kind. The leaf fighters in the ground spider colony, blowdogs, that powder monster... Do you really consider them our kind?'' 5) I think all Shisei Kaburagi was doing was deflecting Maria's child's attacks so it doesn't count as attacking. So I guess he must have been persuading himself that he was only defending himself. Quote - 'But, wait. The fiend (Maria's daughter) can't defeat him either, right? Kaburagi can deflect all his attacks,' Niimi said. I hope this clears stuff up, it is a really interesting novel |
BrachyMay 27, 2016 8:25 AM
| Just quoting the fantranslated novel but i'm sure the anime quoted the same thing. "‘Death feedback’ operated on the following principles. When the mind recognizes that the user is attempting to harm another human, their PK subconsciously activates and stops the functions of the kidney or parathyroid. This results in symptoms such as discomfort, heart palpitations, and sweating, which can be intensified through education, conditioning, and hypnosis. At this stage, most people would stop attacking, but if they continued, tetanic asphyxia caused by low blood calcium, or cardiac arrest caused by a rapid spike in potassium concentration would kill them." Keywords would be "subconscious" and "education, conditioning, and hypnosis". Taking the example of villagers killing each other by mistake, if you are given a hint that you're killing a human (and they don't have to be dead), the subconscious would activate DF right away (in the anime, imo the man was screaming like human so if the person attacking him believed that he was a human straight away then DF would kick in). Under a lot of stress of real battle they lacked experienced in, panicking and giving into the thoughts might have been easy. In converse, even if you know that queerat is originally human, your subconscious may refuse to believe so. The humans were genetically modified until they looked really ugly you cannot empathise with them. With Saki and the boy, I think it was just a matter of possibility that the boy could see Saki's dead body or something. Although I agree that the phrasing/scene didn't elaborate enough. I believe the anime script was also word-for-word to the novel, including the villagers scene. Killing the 'fiend' by means of physical attack and sacrificing someone would be rather difficult. The 'fiend' had sensitive senses and would kill any human instantly before they could get close to the 'fiend'. Saki's mom's farewell letter was cut down in the anime, but the omitted part can probably elaborate on that point. "After reading the accounts of attacks throughout history, I know that every era has had to suffer their share of fiends. There are also records of what I can only describe as divine intervention. Once, when buildings were being torn down and piled together to act as obstacles against the fiend, a piece of rebar just happened to ricochet right into the fiend’s chest, killing it. The people tearing down the building died of death feedback, but ultimately, many lives were saved. However, attempts to replicate the event all ended in failure. People who tried to destroy buildings near a fiend were all immobilized by attack inhibition. There were also attempts to hide the intent to murder through alcohol or narcotics, but unfortunately, none succeeded. No matter how hard you try, it is exceedingly difficult to deceive yourself." One point to argue about that paragraph is that the people did not have the intention to kill anyone by creating the barricade, but if doing so made casualty, moreso if they directly did it, DF would kick in I suppose. |
TeNShIkAJun 6, 2016 10:19 PM
| @TeNShIkA @Brachy Thanks for those two detailed replies. Having stuff coming directly from the novel is nice, it clears up a few things where the anime has just portrayed a scene poorly. It does still seem, though, that AI seems to be highly inconsistent. I would agree with AxBattler that Satoru should not have been able to throw the Psychobuster. It was clearly a direct act of aggression, and if something is roundabout as tearing buildings down around the area that the Fiend resides in is enough to trigger AI, throwing a virus at a Fiend surely should not be able to work. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| Just to clarify that AI is a mechanism that only stops you from using cantus. So throwing a knife at someone (without using cantus) will not be stopped by AI, but DF would still take effect. But the chance of this happening in Saki's society is just very small thanks to the elimination of potential harmful kids and the way they were brought up. Throwing the psychobuster is allowed and you wouldn't die from DF because the cause of killing is indirect enough, same with how you can push a button to activate a nuclear bomb but you won't die from DF because of the surreal feeling and disconnection. Injecting a poison directly may or may not activate DF (we don't really know what exactly happened to the doctor, but maybe it did if the doctor was aware of the poison's mechanism and felt more guilty about it?), but creating and giving lethal drugs to karma demons are allowed. Still a disconnection thing, but with karma demons the townspeople probably thought that karma demons chose to kill themselves by taking the drugs. [Edit] I really jumped the gun there. Cantus or not, AI still applies to any violent action of some sort. AxBattler said the fair points in the post above. More extract and it's from Saki's mom's letter again, it's really a shame how the anime cut it down. "As you would expect, records show that attempts to use of bows and arrows and guns all ended in failure, as it’s impossible to use these weapons without a definite intent to kill your opponent. But the weapons of mass destruction developed by the ancient civilization have no such limitations. Hundreds of thousands of people can be killed with the press of a button, but while you may understand logically what you are doing, it doesn’t feel real. In other words, it’s a device that can override our conscience and abhorrence toward killing and make it possible to commit mass murder. The psychobuster is considered a weapon of mass destruction, but it does not operate on as large a scale and is more suited for assassinations and terrorism. In any case, it’s a weapon that does not make the user feel like they are killing, so attack inhibition will most likely not prevent you from using it. Perhaps even death feedback can be avoided as well." So perhaps what counts is degree of violence of action and whether or not it feels real. It doesn't fully divide things into black and white for sure. [End edit] Using traps can work against fiends, but unless they were the more traditional ones Saki's society wouldn't have had ways to handle explosive or guns? They would have been banned or the number of people who could use them are close to none. I agree with how it's possible to kill the fiend by deceiving the PK users. It's just hard to execute. But it seems that the society preferred to prevent fiends and karma demons from appearing that they just lack the prep to counter them because low success chances and risks. |
TeNShIkAJun 8, 2016 12:38 AM
| Hmm. I suppose I can buy into the feeling if disconnection - this would be especially prevalent in those who have no prior experience in them. I suppose that if something like a nuke is something that a person has never even heard of before, and they were simply told to push the button to launch it, I can agree with them not really suffering from AI because they might not understand it. But I dunno, the act of throwing the Psychobuster is such a direct thing that I still feel it's a little up-in-the-air that there was no inhibition at all. I suppose the DF has been consistent, and it's a mixed case of me misunderstanding and the anime not necessarily portraying it properly. The AI just seems really..Odd. The things that can trigger it and the things that can't. I suppose it's nearly impossible to quantify every single action that could be construed as aggressive, so it being a grey area is to be expected, to some extent. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| @-Maz Yes, I suppose Satoru acted with the intention to stop (for lack of more aggressive word) the 'fiend', moreso because as a scientist he knew how the bacteria could kill. If worse comes to worst, Satoru perhaps could have "accidentally" dropped the Psychobuster on the ground, hoping that the spores reach the 'fiend'. Throwing made it dramatic so it might have been sloppy writing I suppose, and for sake of argument that action might have been borderline AI because the container doesn't seem all harmful to your eyes and it tricked your mind to an extent. @AxBattler With the traps, I wondered if at least Inui and his friends knew how to, because they were knowledgeable with queerats' way of living. Giving it another thought, the society might have been really extreme that knowing how to make traps would be bad because you're starting to think how to harm others without using your cantus, even if it may be helpful to tackle fiends. The society perhaps reached that point where they tricked themselves to think that cantus could solve everything, and nothing could stop cantus. Only to stop their society from crumbling and conflict. Yes the poor doctor had his head blown off. Would've been interesting to see if DF could bypass that though. Saki is definitely special. She can possibly be more susceptible to AI/DF as you say, (I'm starting to stray from just discussing AI/DF) and on top of that, her mind will always recover from bitter truths and will never be unstable enough to drive her to use cantus by impulse (a bit ironic because she burned the Psychobuster in a split second decision, and had she missed her control and used stronger cantus, the 'fiend' would have been severely injured. Satoru too, I suppose...). It's somehow a paradox for me. She was clinging to Shun so much and really wanted to remember everything and she is always curious for the truth, but she would be able to handle the shock. I want to call it apathetic like she did to herself when Maria described her, but it's not the right word either. In a world without PK, if she really had killed someone, would she have been able to swallow that better than most people? Or does it depend on how close she was with some people--like she said, her world consisted of only her family and her friends at Harmony school. She would protect those who are close to her, but will do her job well as a leader who can do dirty jobs. (Perhaps it's more of a sense of duty than fear/paranoia?). That aside, good job for the society's higher-ups for not hypnotising Saki as much, but I'm sad that all the disasters/conflicts revolved closely around Group 1, due to that very freedom of thought. Saki got to experience all that and grew to be a good leader, though, hopefully. Still, it was a lot of sacrifice. I don't remember if they specifically mentioned adults who were fiends and karma demons, but I imagine when AI and DF were not established yet, most people would have been fiends if they consciously killed people. I looked through the novel again and it seems to view people with faulty AI+DF genes to be fiends, whether or not they end up killing people. "There have been a number of cases where fiends did not go on a rampage. After all, even without attack inhibition or death feedback, humans can still decide logically that it is wrong to kill." Although I thought they checked every teen if their DF was working, when Priest Mushin stabbed himself and all. Would've been easier to run genetic tests but *shrugs* stronger hypnosis/aesthetic purposes? |
PxHxCx said: CamiloJTM said: I agree with all the inconsistencies that you found. In addition I have to say that I found one more and it is the way they killed Maria's daughter: she dies for killing Kiroumaru (because she thaught that she was a bakenezumi too), but in previous chapters it is explained that kiroumaru's army was exterminated using the fiend's cantus; she had died that time 'cause she killed other bakenezumi as Kiroumaru. That's the inconsistency. Just watched the series and came here to see this, the way they killed that kid was messed up, as she destroyed Kiroumaru army before and that was ok... what a big and sad plothole... didn't they notice it in the novel? They could have fixed it in the anime... There is not much they could do, they would have to alter the plot in the anime. But I was very disappointed with this plothole. |
PlaycoolNov 20, 2016 6:07 PM
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