RedRoseFring said: vedatsvet said: Dio is not one dimensional, but he isn't complex either. I really don't know why people like him so much. He seems like a typical villain to me, like Bomber from HxH, that's how I view him. More like Hisoka comparing the amount of screen time they got. If we go by screen time, maybe. If we go by character complexity, dimensions and characterization than "typical" and Hisoka don't mix well together. Dio only can wish to be that interesting. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
vedatsvet said: If we go by screen time, maybe. If we go by character complexity, dimensions and characterization than "typical" and Hisoka don't mix well together. Dio only can wish to be that interesting. I'd disagree. There's not much that differentiates the 2, and I'd even give the edge to Dio because he at least has his backstory revealed. Hisoka is mostly reduced to just his personality & goal providing the entertainment, and a lot of that is pretty typical in entertainment: wanting to fight strong opponents, working with protag when the challenge appeals to him, letting protag ripen to fight them at their best, etc. In just about any given situation, you can surmise that Hisoka will choose an option that lets him face a stronger opponent. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
RedRoseFring said: vedatsvet said: If we go by screen time, maybe. If we go by character complexity, dimensions and characterization than "typical" and Hisoka don't mix well together. Dio only can wish to be that interesting. I'd disagree. There's not much that differentiates the 2, and I'd even give the edge to Dio because he at least has his backstory revealed. Hisoka is mostly reduced to just his personality & goal providing the entertainment, and a lot of that is pretty typical in entertainment: wanting to fight strong opponents, working with protag when the challenge appeals to him, letting protag ripen to fight them at their best, etc. In just about any given situation, you can surmise that Hisoka will choose an option that lets him face a stronger opponent. I found dio to be more interesting with his comically brutal attitude , and him being overly cautious and even his high form. But Hisoka is very interesting too with his intellgence and being able to utilize his mid tier powers to be intimadating. |
| Given the right situation , the right story , anyone can be shaped into Snake. -Revolver Ocelot , MGS2 |
ichii_1 said: watch the 2011 version For the Chimera Ant Arc. |
RedRoseFring said: vedatsvet said: If we go by screen time, maybe. If we go by character complexity, dimensions and characterization than "typical" and Hisoka don't mix well together. Dio only can wish to be that interesting. I'd disagree. There's not much that differentiates the 2, and I'd even give the edge to Dio because he at least has his backstory revealed. Hisoka is mostly reduced to just his personality & goal providing the entertainment, and a lot of that is pretty typical in entertainment: wanting to fight strong opponents, working with protag when the challenge appeals to him, letting protag ripen to fight them at their best, etc. In just about any given situation, you can surmise that Hisoka will choose an option that lets him face a stronger opponent. So I guess Hisoka is typical, like any other villain everywhere. Because those set of motivations and characterization we can see everyday. I don't know but I will disagree here about Dio, everything he stands for and what he wants is so freakishly typical that my mind is bored by him, not to mention how immature he is for my tastes (especially for an immortal, Meruem developed and evolved in a matter of months and Dio had an eternity.....)Still can't see what makes him interesting. |
vedatsvetAug 3, 2015 1:50 PM
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
vedatsvet said: RedRoseFring said: I'd disagree. There's not much that differentiates the 2, and I'd even give the edge to Dio because he at least has his backstory revealed. Hisoka is mostly reduced to just his personality & goal providing the entertainment, and a lot of that is pretty typical in entertainment: wanting to fight strong opponents, working with protag when the challenge appeals to him, letting protag ripen to fight them at their best, etc. In just about any given situation, you can surmise that Hisoka will choose an option that lets him face a stronger opponent. So I guess Hisoka is typical, like any other villain everywhere. Because those set of motivations and characterization we can see everyday. I don't know but I will disagree here about Dio, everything he stands for and what he wants is so freakishly typical that my mind is bored by him, not to mention how immature he is for my tastes (especially for an immortal, Meruem developed and evolved in a matter of months and Dio had an eternity.....)Still can't see what makes him interesting. I don't like Dio as much as some others seem to, but he was indeed entertaining and the build up to his reveal was done very well. Strictly speaking, just about every villain is typical in some respects, and I'm not one to put much stock in "originality" because it doesn't add any enjoyment by itself. The only question I care about is: "Is the villain entertaining?" In Hisoka's case, that's a definite yes. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
RedRoseFring said: vedatsvet said: So I guess Hisoka is typical, like any other villain everywhere. Because those set of motivations and characterization we can see everyday. I don't know but I will disagree here about Dio, everything he stands for and what he wants is so freakishly typical that my mind is bored by him, not to mention how immature he is for my tastes (especially for an immortal, Meruem developed and evolved in a matter of months and Dio had an eternity.....)Still can't see what makes him interesting. I don't like Dio as much as some others seem to, but he was indeed entertaining and the build up to his reveal was done very well. Strictly speaking, just about every villain is typical in some respects, and I'm not one to put much stock in "originality" because it doesn't add any enjoyment by itself. The only question I care about is: "Is the villain entertaining?" In Hisoka's case, that's a definite yes. Entertaining or not, that is quite subjective. But at the first place my post was meant as to question or state my opinion on the claim that Dio is an amazing villain. Which I can't see what's so amazing about him. I surely didn't like him in 2012 (pacing might have something to do with this), but I didn't like his charcaterization and I also thought that he was well...typical bad guy, who wants power, immortality bla bla the usual stuff. He was just there to make life miserable for the good guys, just because. He was slightly more entertaining in Stradust, as screen time was little and mystery surrounded him, until the end where he had not changed at all.... Personally I don't find him entertaining at all, he is there to fulfill what every bad Joe is there to fulfill. Basic villain is basic. As for Hisoka, at least his characterization,motivation and role in the story isn't typical for a villain, which makes him interesting and entertaining for me. That would be closer to an amazing villain. Amazing villain for me most of the times is a char that demonstrates intelligence, a level of maturity in how he behaves and thinks, has a complex set of characterization and/or good development and his motivations are solid(meaning if they are basic how the char progresses or goes about them in the story). Villains like Johan Liebert, Griffith, Meruem etc... Hell even Pouf and Pariston are more amazing then Dio. |
vedatsvetAug 3, 2015 4:12 PM
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
| HxH is the shit while most mainstream shounen are shit. |
vedatsvet said: RedRoseFring said: I don't like Dio as much as some others seem to, but he was indeed entertaining and the build up to his reveal was done very well. Strictly speaking, just about every villain is typical in some respects, and I'm not one to put much stock in "originality" because it doesn't add any enjoyment by itself. The only question I care about is: "Is the villain entertaining?" In Hisoka's case, that's a definite yes. Entertaining or not, that is quite subjective. But at the first place my post was meant as to question or state my opinion on the claim that Dio is an amazing villain. Which I can't see what's so amazing about him. I surely didn't like him in 2012 (pacing might have something to do with this), but I didn't like his charcaterization and I also thought that he was well...typical bad guy, who wants power, immortality bla bla the usual stuff. He was just there to make life miserable for the good guys, just because. He was slightly more entertaining in Stradust, as screen time was little and mystery surrounded him, until the end where he had not changed at all.... Personally I don't find him entertaining at all, he is there to fulfill what every bad Joe is there to fulfill. Basic villain is basic. As for Hisoka, at least his characterization,motivation and role in the story isn't typical for a villain, which makes him interesting and entertaining for me. That would be closer to an amazing villain. Amazing villain for me most of the times is a char that demonstrates intelligence, a level of maturity in how he behaves and thinks, has a complex set of characterization and/or good development and his motivations are solid(meaning if they are basic how the char progresses or goes about them in the story). Villains like Johan Liebert, Griffith, Meruem etc... Hell even Pouf and Pariston are more amazing then Dio. Dio is the devil, the devil is supposed to be he who loves making other people's life miserable because of his ego and his hatred for the others . As for intelligence I found that Dio was one of the most intelligent and cautious villains , I mean look at what he does at stardust he is a villain that took his time to make sure that he isn't fooled . As far as I know such villains don't exist that much in anime. you could say Johan is one but no he isn't at all due to how his character is shaped . Sometimes simply less is more. |
| Given the right situation , the right story , anyone can be shaped into Snake. -Revolver Ocelot , MGS2 |
vedatsvet said: Entertaining or not, that is quite subjective. But at the first place my post was meant as to question or state my opinion on the claim that Dio is an amazing villain. Which I can't see what's so amazing about him. I surely didn't like him in 2012 (pacing might have something to do with this), but I didn't like his charcaterization and I also thought that he was well...typical bad guy, who wants power, immortality bla bla the usual stuff. He was just there to make life miserable for the good guys, just because. He was slightly more entertaining in Stradust, as screen time was little and mystery surrounded him, until the end where he had not changed at all.... Personally I don't find him entertaining at all, he is there to fulfill what every bad Joe is there to fulfill. Basic villain is basic. As for Hisoka, at least his characterization,motivation and role in the story isn't typical for a villain, which makes him interesting and entertaining for me. That would be closer to an amazing villain. Amazing villain for me most of the times is a char that demonstrates intelligence, a level of maturity in how he behaves and thinks, has a complex set of characterization and/or good development and his motivations are solid(meaning if they are basic how the char progresses or goes about them in the story). Villains like Johan Liebert, Griffith, Meruem etc... Hell even Pouf and Pariston are more amazing then Dio. I can easily switch out many of the points you mentioned for Dio for Hisoka: "I also thought that he was well...typical bad guy, who wants a strong opponent, protagonist at his best bla bla the usual stuff. He was just there to challenge the strong guys, just because. He was slightly more entertaining in Election.....until the end where he had not changed at all." His characterization and motivation is also pretty typical (Lobo, Vegeta, Kraven, Young Justice Despero etc). It's also pretty contradictory because Dio did show intelligence. And both can be argued to have immature tendencies (jeopardizing personal health just to face a strong opponent, etc). I guess in the end, my issue is the claim that one is much more different from the other when they share many qualities typical to villains. Meruem is certainly more atypical, and also Chrollo to a degree, but not really Hisoka (except maybe the yaoi undertones which coincidentally he's most ribbed for.) |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
The devil? Ok. So basically evil? Basic and typical. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
RedRoseFring said: vedatsvet said: Entertaining or not, that is quite subjective. But at the first place my post was meant as to question or state my opinion on the claim that Dio is an amazing villain. Which I can't see what's so amazing about him. I surely didn't like him in 2012 (pacing might have something to do with this), but I didn't like his charcaterization and I also thought that he was well...typical bad guy, who wants power, immortality bla bla the usual stuff. He was just there to make life miserable for the good guys, just because. He was slightly more entertaining in Stradust, as screen time was little and mystery surrounded him, until the end where he had not changed at all.... Personally I don't find him entertaining at all, he is there to fulfill what every bad Joe is there to fulfill. Basic villain is basic. As for Hisoka, at least his characterization,motivation and role in the story isn't typical for a villain, which makes him interesting and entertaining for me. That would be closer to an amazing villain. Amazing villain for me most of the times is a char that demonstrates intelligence, a level of maturity in how he behaves and thinks, has a complex set of characterization and/or good development and his motivations are solid(meaning if they are basic how the char progresses or goes about them in the story). Villains like Johan Liebert, Griffith, Meruem etc... Hell even Pouf and Pariston are more amazing then Dio. I can easily switch out many of the points you mentioned for Dio for Hisoka: "I also thought that he was well...typical bad guy, who wants a strong opponent, protagonist at his best bla bla the usual stuff. He was just there to challenge the strong guys, just because. He was slightly more entertaining in Election.....until the end where he had not changed at all." His characterization and motivation is also pretty typical (Lobo, Vegeta, Kraven, Young Justice Despero etc). It's also pretty contradictory because Dio did show intelligence. And both can be argued to have immature tendencies (jeopardizing personal health just to face a strong opponent, etc). I guess in the end, my issue is the claim that one is much more different from the other when they share many qualities typical to villains. Meruem is certainly more atypical, and also Chrollo to a degree, but not really Hisoka (except maybe the yaoi undertones which coincidentally he's most ribbed for.) Switch them as you will, this can be done about anything really, but still you miss out what I was saying. The role in the story, how he goes about things and his goals and the set of characteristics that comprise his characterization is what makes him atypical. Waiting patiently, methodically and even taking active role in helping and educating your opponents to be able to fight them later when they are strong is not typical. Deceiving and planning for years upon years analyzing just shows the length he was willing to go to get what he wants. The motivation is basic but how he goes about it combined with his set of characterization is what makes him atypical. Yea Dio did show intelligence, I never claimed he didn't, don't take just one thing. Dio's arrogance, patronizing, cartoonish evil dialog vs his opponents, the way he conducts himself with others, his goals show immaturity, not tendencies but he is so cartoonish of a villain and immature imo. Hisoka jeopardizing his health to get what he wants, why exactly this is immature, this is exactly what excites him in the first place? Maturity isn't demonstrated in one isolated instance or tendency. Well we just have to agree to disagree, I can't see anything in Dio that makes him atypical(or amazing as someone claimed). As for Hisoka I can think enough stuff that could categorize him as such. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
vedatsvet said: The devil? Ok. So basically evil? Basic and typical. Doesn't it get boring that most villains are usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone . Well this is more typical than a simple egotistical so full of himself guy who simply hates the world and finds entertainment on seeing everyone's misery. |
| Given the right situation , the right story , anyone can be shaped into Snake. -Revolver Ocelot , MGS2 |
Akabawi said: vedatsvet said: The devil? Ok. So basically evil? Basic and typical. Doesn't it get boring that most villains are usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone . Well this is more typical than a simple egotistical so full of himself guy who simply hates the world and finds entertainment on seeing everyone's misery. Depends on how many and what anime you've seen to be saying this. But just by simple logic, it's more difficult to write successfully an entertaining villain who is "usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone", than to write a villain that is not "usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone". Why? Because in the first case, complexity and depth is involved more than in the second case. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
vedatsvet said: Yet sometimes less is more. I found his " being a dick " attitude to be very amusing and entertaining a lot . Also the fact that he unlike most other villains Akabawi said: Doesn't it get boring that most villains are usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone . Well this is more typical than a simple egotistical so full of himself guy who simply hates the world and finds entertainment on seeing everyone's misery. Depends on how many and what anime you've seen to be saying this. But just by simple logic, it's more difficult to write successfully an entertaining villain who is "usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone", than to write a villain that is not "usually misunderstood villains and villains playing around in the greyish zone". Why? Because in the first case, complexity and depth is involved more than in the second case. Also a lot of his trolls , cautiousness and intelligence to deal with his enemies even though he is more powerful than the enemy is something I liked a lot , it's not usual to see someone who has a hax ability and doesn't misuse it. |
| Given the right situation , the right story , anyone can be shaped into Snake. -Revolver Ocelot , MGS2 |
vedatsvet said: Switch them as you will, this can be done about anything really, but still you miss out what I was saying. The role in the story, how he goes about things and his goals and the set of characteristics that comprise his characterization is what makes him atypical. Waiting patiently, methodically and even taking active role in helping and educating your opponents to be able to fight them later when they are strong is not typical. Deceiving and planning for years upon years analyzing just shows the length he was willing to go to get what he wants. The motivation is basic but how he goes about it combined with his set of characterization is what makes him atypical. Yea Dio did show intelligence, I never claimed he didn't, don't take just one thing. Dio's arrogance, patronizing, cartoonish evil dialog vs his opponents, the way he conducts himself with others, his goals show immaturity, not tendencies but he is so cartoonish of a villain and immature imo. Hisoka jeopardizing his health to get what he wants, why exactly this is immature, this is exactly what excites him in the first place? Maturity isn't demonstrated in one isolated instance or tendency. Well we just have to agree to disagree, I can't see anything in Dio that makes him atypical(or amazing as someone claimed). As for Hisoka I can think enough stuff that could categorize him as such. Hmmm. I guess that could work out if you restrict it to anime as only Vegeta comes to mind for that (at least the ones I've watched), but the bolded is pretty typical in other forms of media. Lady Shiva, Morlun, Zoom, Reverse Flash and Ares are some examples. Technically, "how he goes about it" is different for just about every villain to afford them the title of being atypical. That is why I hardly bother with such labeling because basically every villain would count as typical on the macro scale, and then count as atypical on the micro scale. It's the same kind of misconceived labeling that shounens receive. As for Dio again, the level of caution he showed for someone of his abilities was pretty atypical. Even then, for any trait, I could probably come up with a number of examples across media that share it. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| It takes awhile to show it, could be 45 or even 100+ episodes depending on what you're expecting, but until then it's still gonna be the most well-made shounen you'll ever see. |
 |
| It's different in the sense that a lot of storylines don't exactly go the way you would expect them to, or rather, the way storylines usually go in shounen anime. The typical rhythm is that the protags will encounter increasingly powerful foes, train and develop new powers in order to defeat said foes, then eventually defeat the villains with their newfound strength. Generally speaking, HxH doesn't exactly follow this pattern, especially once you get past the first couple arcs. In fact, many of the series' major conflicts aren't ultimately resolved through violence--or at the very least, they aren't resolved because the protags trained a lot and beat the villains into submission. Usually the villains are defeated through some other, more unconventional way. |
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